Originally Posted by Skabungus

Anti is right.....your cousins are nutz....but that's beside the point.

We have a 13 year old boy tweeb (- he's not a tween anymore, but not truly exhibiting difficult teen manifestations, so, he's a tweeb), a 2 1/2 year old boy and a girl that is due to arrive in early December.

* We permit TV as long as its "worth watching" which means, Frontline, Nature, Signing Time, History Detectives, or some other educational/interesting program that mom and dad deem the whole family can enjoy. No Sponge Bob, CSI, 24 or other purposeless trash. Typically though, its not network TV at all (we don't spend money on cable) but instead a DVD or VHS we got for free at the library.

* There is no parking your ass in front of the TV by yourself to idle away the hours. Any single dose is limited to 2 1/2 hours a day max. Only one dose a day. This applies to everyone mom and dad included. TV is a family device only. Typically though we only ever have it on for about 4-6 hours a week total. Remember, the whole family has to be available to watch it!

* Because these are THE RULES, and because mom and dad apply the same rules to themselves, its fairly easy to enforce. I can count on one hand the tweeb has complained he couldn't watch something his friends talk about at skewl. If, however, we were to make exceptions, I am sure it would become a slippery slope. Viewing the TV as a family tool for entertainment removes it from the realm in which most people view it ---as a giant cathode ray nipple feeding them a way to waste time and feel engaged with the world. Our TV is not a baby sitter.

* Computer games, (something dad and the tweeb dearly love) are treated differently. 1. The game must be something that requires serious strategy, 2. the game must be played after all chores are done and only when it doesn't interfere with family interaction. 3. computer gaming is a reward, not a right. 4. Time is limited to 1 hour - 3 times a week. That means you can play chess, Go, Age of Empires or an online game like Galactic Conquest all by yourself for a total of 3 hours a week, if you can fit it in. There are no endless hours of gaming on line in our house, though back in college dad could game for 24 hours straight with only coffee!

* We have developed some great family games that keep everyone entertained and don't interfere with housework. They're called help mommy and daddy games! My wife stays home with the kids (note: I didn't say "my wife doesn't work" the way my Silent parents always say) so she is there to interact with them all day. This saves our having to pay for daycare and, gives her some help around the house. Believe it or not, our 2 1/2 year old picks up his toys when told; goes and gets his sippy cup of cold goat's milk outta the fridge himself, and puts it back when he's told to; can dress himself, and helps clean the house when asked. He finds this all to be a really fun game! The tweeb has fits of rebellion on these issues (I'm sure he'll get more rebellious as the testosterone sears the hemispheres of his brain in half) but knows that its all part of the routine. We have found the key to be consistent demands/rewards and inflexible (no, not harsh) discipline. We've also found that the payback to us parents come in the form of engaged, managable/helpful, kids who are more often than not, exhausted at bed time.
.

Your tweeb is going to hate you when he turns 15.

Originally Posted by MichaelEaston

Your tweeb is going to hate you when he turns 15.

Nah. He'll just spend all his time at his friends houses.

* Computer games, (something dad and the tweeb dearly love) are treated differently. 1. The game must be something that requires serious strategy.

You need to teach him poker then. My GI uncles saw to it that I knew how to play when I was 8 years old. There is no other game which combines serious strategy and patience.

The tweeb has fits of rebellion on these issues (I'm sure he'll get more rebellious as the testosterone sears the hemispheres of his brain in half) but knows that its all part of the routine. We have found the key to be consistent demands/rewards and inflexible (no, not harsh) discipline. We've also found that the payback to us parents come in the form of engaged, managable/helpful, kids who are more often than not, exhausted at bed time.

Uh huh. Just remember what *you* were like in your teens. I have 5 Millie nephews and trust me, puberty sucks for parents, regardless of what generation they're raising. If they're female, (like my sisters were), they get all moody and shit. If they're male, they get short fused at random times and tend to be hard on furniture.

I know (before ever encountering S&H) that my parents were underprotective, but I don't see our style as being overly protective.

In my case, it was more of a family thing. My GI grandfather on mom's answered a simple question of what Coor's tasted like by handing me one and saying, "here, have one" (This was while we were on vacation and my parents were around...) . A GI uncle on dad's side made his own wine and at the family 4th of July get together, I'd get a wine glass like almost everyone else. (My 2 younger sisters just got cola.) I usually got stashed with all of my Boomer cousins for all matters family. Sort of awkward. An example is when one of my Boomer cousins just got his driver's license. He took me and the "twins" (2 of my Boom cousins ) for 100+ mile an hour drives out on the country roads. Finally was my father. When I was 14 , he took me on one of his business trips. He'd just order up 2 bloody mary's on the plane and then at the Red Lobster in Fort Collins, we split a bottle of wine. I remember getting really smashed. At 17, we went on another business trip to Los Alamos. I got to drive the car (A scout) all over northern New Mexico while he worked. Now, with the Millie nephews, it's all different with the same people. No more just handing out booze, poker lessons, and wild joyrides with other kin. None of this stuff made sense until I read the book.

Michael Easton says "your tweeb is going to hate you when he turns 15"

Well Mike, there's always that risk. I know plenty of parents that have kids that enjoy free run of the house, no chores, have all the computer time in the world and..............they hate their parents! I don't want to imagine how these kids will manage themselves when they go off to college.......if they go at all!

At least my boy will have the tools to manage his life so that, when and if he decides he want to have violent outbursts, damage furniture, etc. He'll be able to function on his own cuz we don't tollerate abusive antics at our house.

The Wonkette says "Nah. He'll just spend all his time at his friends houses. "

Yea, we used to think that too. But it seems to be the other way around. See, I'm the only dad that engages in diabolical childish escapades like building trabuchets, crossbows and home made UAV's. I'm the best dungeonmaster in the county as well. So, to date anyhow, the tweeb's friends, and the tweeb, prefer to play at our house.

I predict that the issue will come when he discovers GIRLS !!!

Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62

In my case, it was more of a family thing. My GI grandfather on mom's answered a simple question of what Coor's tasted like by handing me one and saying, "here, have one" (This was while we were on vacation and my parents were around...) . A GI uncle on dad's side made his own wine and at the family 4th of July get together, I'd get a wine glass like almost everyone else. (My 2 younger sisters just got cola.) I usually got stashed with all of my Boomer cousins for all matters family. Sort of awkward. An example is when one of my Boomer cousins just got his driver's license. He took me and the "twins" (2 of my Boom cousins ) for 100+ mile an hour drives out on the country roads. Finally was my father. When I was 14 , he took me on one of his business trips. He'd just order up 2 bloody mary's on the plane and then at the Red Lobster in Fort Collins, we split a bottle of wine. I remember getting really smashed. At 17, we went on another business trip to Los Alamos. I got to drive the car (A scout) all over northern New Mexico while he worked. Now, with the Millie nephews, it's all different with the same people. No more just handing out booze, poker lessons, and wild joyrides with other kin. None of this stuff made sense until I read the book.

JEEESUS!!! We must be cousins of some relation! I had almost exactly the same experiences including going on business trips with my dad and getting blasted at family events. However, I was never allowed to drive the car around the desert! My GI grandpa on my mom's side even helped me build a still and tought me how to make bootleg whiskey like he did when he was a kid in the hills of Pennsylvania. My parents thought this was a wonderful way of sharing history

To date the tweeb has only asked to sample beer and meade or wine a couple of times. They have not met the approval of his refined pallate. "Jeeze dad! How can you drink that stuff! It tastes like goat pee!"

His experiences watching his mom and dad drink don't involve stumbling around, puking or other bad behavior. Its also rare as the wife and I may have a beer each after haying or a glass of wine on solstice, but beyond that its only seldom. His experiences of watching others drink at campgrounds, or the county fair have been more illustrative of what goes wrong when alcohol meets body tissue. To date he finds "drinking is stupid". We'll see if that lasts as he hits 17-18.

Originally Posted by Skabungus

Michael Easton says "your tweeb is going to hate you when he turns 15"

Well Mike, there's always that risk. I know plenty of parents that have kids that enjoy free run of the house, no chores, have all the computer time in the world and..............they hate their parents! I don't want to imagine how these kids will manage themselves when they go off to college.......if they go at all!

Kids are going to hate their parents at some point no matter what. I think I hated my parents at 15, but I forget why.

Originally Posted by The Rani

You mean for not letting them run around outside or watch T.V.? Or for working full time while trying to raise kids?

Seriously.

For the whole nine yards. Working two jobs and raising kids requires certain leniances elsewhere. No room/allowance to play outside requires certain leninces elsewhere. Being mucho hippy parents who don't let their kids watch tv requires certain leniances elsewhere.

Being two working parents, limited tv time, two rambunctious boys, no outdoor space - it's like closing off all the pressure relief valves with the boiler on high.

It also seems to me to be a bit unreasonable. Despite what the tv tells us, we can't all be uber-careerists, uber-parents, with beautiful clean houses, and dutiful children who sit and read books without getting in mom and dad's way.

KA-BOOM! Boiler blew.

Originally Posted by The Rani

So here's a comment about Xer parenting. My cousins, who have a 2-year-old and a 5-year-old, don't let them watch a whole lot of T.V. or play computer games. They live in a house with a small yard, and on a busy street, so they can't "run outside and play." So now, their kids are starting to drive them nuts, running around the house screaming and wrestling each other (both boys) while they try to get housework done.

Without being able to send the kids to run around the neighborhood for safety reasons, or using T.V. as a babysitter, is there any other way for full-time working parents to manage this stuff? Other than getting a nanny or something.

We also live in a house with a small yard near a busy street (my kid and the same age neighbors run back and forth in between houses, but don't get to cross the street without assistance). Hate to say it, TV, books, art projects, LEGOs, etc. are kinda necessary for things like getting dinner on the table. With two high energy boys, TV may be the best option, at least until the 2 year old gets old enough to have a longer attention span. They can watch preapproved DVDs if the parents are worried about content.

But they also need to get them good and tired during the rest of the day, so that they want to veg a bit while parents are doing housework. Is there a park nearby they can run around in? Running around is really essential for kids.

We let our kid watch TV, but not massive amounts. There's so much else going on, especially in the summer, that he kind of needs a bit of TV just to unwind at the end of a busy day. He's pretty exhausted by 6 p.m. One of the two parks near us has two playgrounds, an outdoor pool, a cool fountain, a wading pool, a track, tennis courts, basketball, a dog park (kids love dogs, even if it's not always mutual), and, in the summer, high school students hired by the park district to teach swimming and lead the kids in arts and crafts projects. And that's just on the days he's running around with me, in between errands. When I'm at work, he's at some sort of camp in the summer. Last week he did music camp -- which also involved lots of running around and art projects and water fights, because it really is necessary for kids to blow off steam.

Of course, the other thing they could try is getting the kids to do some housework too. Get them each a swiffer and have them dust the floors. If they start hitting each other with the swiffers, then they can use the swiffer wipes to dust by hand.

Originally Posted by MichaelEaston

Kids are going to hate their parents at some point no matter what. I think I hated my parents at 15, but I forget why.

One word: "Peeeuuuuberty". You don't remember because like the rest of the male sex, all of your testosterone receptors in your brain were all docked up.

Originally Posted by The Rani

Well that was sorta my idea. When they were moving into their new house last weekend, their mom was trying to put clothes away, and the five-year-old was playing in them like they were a pile of leaves. So I decided to get him to "help." I sorted them out, and then handed them to him to take to mommy in the next room. This kept him running back and forth, but in a productive way. I also taught him how to open my car trunk so he could help load the car, which he thought was really cool.

Since I posted the original comment here, they have asked me what I think they should do, and they really did seem open to feedback. Good thing, because the two-year-old is a hellion!

Oh, they also do all the things that you suggested, just not that often. Usually it takes "auntie" (me) showing up with her rollerblades to get them outta the house. But the older one does do soccer, swimming, summer camp, DVDs, etc.

Yeah, after I posted my first post, I wondered if that was the case. Hence the second post.

Not to bash our ethnic group or anything, but I have aunts who actually take pride at how little their sons are capable of doing to help around the house. I'm guessing your cousin is Indian and I wonder if she feels funny about asking the kids to help? Especially if she was raised in India? Where people live with their parents until they're married? And a lot of middle class moms have "help" and don't do much housework themselves? If any of this is the case (and it might not be at all), it might be helpful to couch it in terms of a life skill that's useful in the US where kids often go off to college at 18 and need to do their own laundry and live in dorm rooms or apartments that they need to clean themselves, etc.

Reading the two posts above I have to add the following:

~ I'd have to vote clearly against the "ethnic group" attributions to behavior. It presumes that certain ethnic groups with "traditional" values are different from other groups with "traditional values" that are somehow different than the "traditional values" of, say, the "traditional values" of Midwestern farm families, or the "traditional values" of rural southern families, or the "traditional values" of blue collar families in major cities.

I don't doubt that ethnic influences have an impact on how we raise children but I thing the attribution of gender-based roles, the treatment of male and female children, etc. are more a product of the modern versus the traditional. I know plenty of 1st generation immigrants and among them I know Indian husbands that do all the cooking, Latino women that run the family business and book keeping while dad raises the kids, and BELIEVE IT OR NOT!! I know Asian people that are raising assertive, sexy independent daughters that want to stay off marriage----with the full backing of their parents. Some of my blue-eyed, red-haired 10th generation Midwestern American neighbors voice their disapproval of the above arrangements, using some the same words you'd hear from the mouths of traditionally minded Indian or Latina grandmas!!

Rather than "ethnicity" I would thing "traditionality" may put it better simply because you can be "traditional" with regard to gender roles, and child rearing practices no matter what culture you come from, and, despite the subtle cultural differences, those "traditional" attributes will look the same regardless of the culture. This is particularly true here because America, while not a melting pot in the ideal sense, is at least an amalgam of borrowed culture, twisted, tempered and tuned by situation into at "tradition" that confounds even its inhabitants. Isn’t it great?!?

Control is likely the primary issue. People want to be in control or at least feel like they are. It's seldom out of an overt desire to rule the roost, but more just out of a desire to feel like everything is going well, everyone is provided for and everything is the way it should be. In the well intentioned effort to control the environment (and therefore do a good job at raising the kids and making a good family) many people, of both genders, take on the tasks ---all the tasks----themselves. Mom's do all the cooking and laundry, dad's do all the fixing and mending around the house, mom's make all the playtime and dietary choices for the family ---dad included The end result is two-fold. Firstly, the controller is exhausted all the time and remains frustrated because things are never perfect (their goal) and there are other issues that crop up (children acting out, kids unable to make their own choices, etc.) Secondly, the people being controlled (kids) are uninvolved and unchallenged. They get bored and frustrated and act out whether it’s through bad behavior or no behavior like being unable to think for them selves, do for themselves. They’re disconnected from the situation around them because they've been excluded from involvement.

I'd rather have the kids put the clothes away in a pile in their dressers than insist that I fold them neatly myself. They'll figure it out when puberty makes them aware of the importance of looking neat for the opposite gender.

I'd rather have the kids help fix the cabinet door and have it take two hours and have nicks in the paint than say " this is daddy's job, go play in the living room" simply because it serves to thicken my relationship with them rather than thin it to interactions that only involve, food, play and discipline.

See..........this is what happens when I let my wife make the coffee in the morning. Type, type, type, and type...blabber, blabber, blabber........ But then again, if I took control of the coffee pot, she'd have to drink my mild blend of java all the time, would feel pushed out. I'll save my control issues for more important things like making sure carrots never get put on the pizza.

Originally Posted by The Rani

In this case, Neisha's guess was actually a good one. My cousin has told me many times in the past that she sees a lot of things "wrong" with American culture, and she wants to shield her kids from that stuff.

I wasn't trying to deminish the validity of Neisha's guess by any stretch. Rather, I was trying to make the point that it's not particular to folks from the subcontinent. Often times people feel that displeasure with American culture is a product of ethnicity which I don't believe it is. Doing so may be unfair to folks of that ethnicity that in fact are more comfortable in American culture.

Ethnicity is a big word! If someone is ethnic Indian are they Hindu, Moslem? Are they the same in the north and the south? Do they speak the same language? See what I mean? Hey, I'm English, Scottish, Welsh, French, German and Danish, but a lot of people just refer to me as their white friend. In my family the Germans think that the English and the Scots are ethnically the same thing, but, if you know anything about the two cultures you quickly become aware that that is only parctially true.

You will hear nearly the same negative words about American culture from the mouths of midwestern parents who home school their children, Mormons living in enclaves in Idaho, etc. It's not their ethnicity that is driving their control issues....its their control issues.

Which makes me think, well geez, just move back to India then! So the "control" stuff, in my opinion, is at least partly based on her cultural prejudices.

Yea, I sympathize with you in your frustration. I used to date an Iranian girl in college. She was 2nd gen and when we'd go to her house for gatherings, I would listen (often be lectured) about the shortcomings of American culture and told repeatedly how much better everything was back in Iran. Her mom and dad used to scold her for dating "American boys" and not looking for a nice Persian boy to marry.

Her family was rather secular in orientation and had come here fleeing for their lives with the fall of the Shah. You'd figure they'd have more affinity for western lifestyles but............go figure. Never once did they consider their finger wagging lectures to me to be rude.....
I wrote it off as their way of expressing a kind of lonelyness for "the old country" and discomfort over the "new ways". That doesn't mean I didn't think to myself "well, why don't you call the Iranian embassy and see if they'll let you back in". They're all mostly dead now and my old girlfriend teaches anthropology at the university level. Everyone thinks she's greek because she married a guy with a greek surname......go figure.

Sorry for rattling on. Maybe I'm splitting hairs but, there are bound to be more hair splitting sessions as America continues to change and more and more, Asians, Latinos, etc. take a more prominent role in the census figures, cultural climate and.......eventually public policies impacting families.

Originally Posted by MichaelEaston

Kids are going to hate their parents at some point no matter what. I think I hated my parents at 15, but I forget why.

I hated my parents (well, maybe not hated, too strong a word, but...) from about ages 13-24 and remember perfectly well why.

My Dad didn't like it at all when us kids started thinking for ourselves about the world we lived in, and came up with ideas that didn't quite line up with his. I recall us having at least three pissing contests that damn nearly came to physical blows... not of the child-beating kind but more of the barroom brawl variety. Of course, my Mom would never have let that happen...

... which was part of the problem. Mom never let me settle any of my disagreements as a kid, whether with my Dad or with outsiders. She always had to fucking intercede... which oddly she didn't do to my younger siblings. As such, I never learned to fight my own battles growing up. So as an adult, I had to learn to make my way in the world and deal with its assholes with very limited training... protected as I was.

On second thought... damn right I hated my parents for all their Silentine bullshit. The irony is... I actually agree much of what my Mom and Dad to protect us from the world's woes, now that I'm old enough to understand why. In fact, I could argue that they didn't go far enough, fast enough... for example, they could have blown town in '68 when everyone else who was anyone did, instead of dawdling for seven years.

After reading all of these posts, the only conclusion that I can come to is that I do not seem to belong to any particular group or quite possibly any sub group.
Born in '61 has me as an X'er or even a late boomer. I can tell you that I have never ascribed to the axiom of the boomers (they love to suckle at the gov teat).

I expect to see society devolve in my lifetime to a more local, rugged individualist type of society. This will be brought about because of the coming crash/conflict that is being foisted upon us by large central governments and central bankers manipulating fiat currencies. I sense a yearning for a return to true freedoms, at least in this country.

As I am just starting to learn this forum and by association this book, I could be wrong. As a student of history, I can't lay claim to being a visionary of any ilk, however I can say that I have not been far off in my projections over the past 10-15 years.

The illegal aliens along with the proposed NAU coupled with the afore mentioned scenarios will prove to be the impetus for a looming societal upheaval. Is this the "turning that you all speak of?

Originally Posted by Southern Revolution

After reading all of these posts, the only conclusion that I can come to is that I do not seem to belong to any particular group or quite possibly any sub group.
Born in '61 has me as an X'er or even a late boomer. I can tell you that I have never ascribed to the axiom of the boomers (they love to suckle at the gov teat).

Spoken like a true X'er ... Seems to be part of the Boom/X generation gap thing.

I expect to see society devolve in my lifetime to a more local, rugged individualist type of society. This will be brought about because of the coming crash/conflict that is being foisted upon us by large central governments and central bankers manipulating fiat currencies.

Of course a bloated government (bases in Europe , the way Social Security is set up, ( there is no such thing as a "trust fund" ! It's just a pile of government bonds and a bookkeeping entry ) are one source of a crash or "Great Devaluation". The other is of course this Fed fueled series of bubbles. As for fiat money, yup, I hate FRAUDS (Federal Reserve AUdit Denomination Shits) as well. Gold or a more modern form of tangible money , like claims to energy generation are a better way. The claims would be just like call options on electricity. Each bill would be valid for say 1 KWh. Anyone with the capacity to generate electricity would be allowed to issue the bills. No more money monopoly like the Fed.

I sense a yearning for a return to true freedoms, at least in this country.

Who knows what a 4T will bring. We've screwed up for so long, that anything's possible.

As I am just starting to learn this forum and by association this book, I could be wrong. As a student of history, I can't lay claim to being a visionary of any ilk, however I can say that I have not been far off in my projections over the past 10-15 years.

The illegal aliens along with the proposed NAU coupled with the afore mentioned scenarios will prove to be the impetus for a looming societal upheaval. Is this the "turning that you all speak of?

The illegal alien issue is for sure a sore sport for me. It's a prime directive of the Federal government to defend the borders and it's utterly failed in this regard since 1986. No amnesty, period! And why hasn't RICO been applied to those who hire them ? Also, the CEO's and other co-conspirators need to be sentenced to real jail time and be busting rocks.
No more country club prisons. As for the "turning", yes, I'm sure illegal immigration will be involved. That's an easy call. The defeat of Bush's amnesty bill pretty much ensures this issue will head into the 4T.

Originally Posted by The Rani

Hmm ... that's an interesting point. You are so smart!!

Maybe it's a male/female thing, like she doesn't expect the boys to help with the housework. But, on the other hand, she DOES make her husband clean the bathrooms. I have a feeling that she's got her own control "issues" that are getting in the way of lots of things. Good thing they have a cool auntie around, huh?

Yeah, aunties are clutch!

My aunt who brags the most also expects her husband and daughter to do stuff, but sons are supposed to be raised like royalty or something. It's weird. I'm just glad I had a sister and not a brother growing up!

Originally Posted by Skabungus

I wasn't trying to deminish the validity of Neisha's guess by any stretch. Rather, I was trying to make the point that it's not particular to folks from the subcontinent. Often times people feel that displeasure with American culture is a product of ethnicity which I don't believe it is. Doing so may be unfair to folks of that ethnicity that in fact are more comfortable in American culture.

Ethnicity is a big word! If someone is ethnic Indian are they Hindu, Moslem? Are they the same in the north and the south? Do they speak the same language? See what I mean? Hey, I'm English, Scottish, Welsh, French, German and Danish, but a lot of people just refer to me as their white friend. In my family the Germans think that the English and the Scots are ethnically the same thing, but, if you know anything about the two cultures you quickly become aware that that is only parctially true.

You will hear nearly the same negative words about American culture from the mouths of midwestern parents who home school their children, Mormons living in enclaves in Idaho, etc. It's not their ethnicity that is driving their control issues....its their control issues.



Yea, I sympathize with you in your frustration. I used to date an Iranian girl in college. She was 2nd gen and when we'd go to her house for gatherings, I would listen (often be lectured) about the shortcomings of American culture and told repeatedly how much better everything was back in Iran. Her mom and dad used to scold her for dating "American boys" and not looking for a nice Persian boy to marry.

Her family was rather secular in orientation and had come here fleeing for their lives with the fall of the Shah. You'd figure they'd have more affinity for western lifestyles but............go figure. Never once did they consider their finger wagging lectures to me to be rude.....
I wrote it off as their way of expressing a kind of lonelyness for "the old country" and discomfort over the "new ways". That doesn't mean I didn't think to myself "well, why don't you call the Iranian embassy and see if they'll let you back in". They're all mostly dead now and my old girlfriend teaches anthropology at the university level. Everyone thinks she's greek because she married a guy with a greek surname......go figure.

Sorry for rattling on. Maybe I'm splitting hairs but, there are bound to be more hair splitting sessions as America continues to change and more and more, Asians, Latinos, etc. take a more prominent role in the census figures, cultural climate and.......eventually public policies impacting families.

Oh dear. Rani and I have known each other for a while and have had lots of off-forum conversations about what's a culture clash and what's a personality clash within our families. So, my guess had more to do with background info from other conversations we've had than just from what she posted here. Hope that helps.

Originally Posted by The Rani

So here's a comment about Xer parenting. My cousins, who have a 2-year-old and a 5-year-old, don't let them watch a whole lot of T.V. or play computer games. They live in a house with a small yard, and on a busy street, so they can't "run outside and play." So now, their kids are starting to drive them nuts, running around the house screaming and wrestling each other (both boys) while they try to get housework done.

Without being able to send the kids to run around the neighborhood for safety reasons, or using T.V. as a babysitter, is there any other way for full-time working parents to manage this stuff? Other than getting a nanny or something.

If they have some money, fence in the yard high and get a good jungle gym/swingset/sandbox. Then they can play outside. Is there a patio door or big window through which you can see the kids?

Boys are going to roughhouse. It's just fun. And kids make lots of noise, my 35 lb granddaughter makes as much noise as I do coming down our creaky stairs.

TV also does help. Little Einsteins, Dora and Clifford are reasonably good and don't induce brain rot.

Does a parent stay home? Is daycare an option? Our sitter is home-based costs $2/hr and it available 1st and 2nd shift, and occasionally on weekends. Of course, we have lots of money, but live in a working class neighborhood --so home daycares are close by.

Originally Posted by Flyingeye76

To answer a question with a question- When did the Lost become serious? I think though that may not be a good comparison come to think of it. The depression was the bad hangover that everyone felt. The closest thing to having a similar universal sobering up was 911. The wars itself while effecting some only do so for those involve. Still many Xrs are still in a younger mindset.

In Generations, the authors note a "hangover mode" when a reactive generation realizes that there will be no going back to the youthful fun they had in the 3T so they decide to do "the right thing, with or without God." For the lost they identified that time as 1930. For the guilded it came too late, on the bloody battlefields of the civil war. It seems that the 4T has to have indisputably arrived before the reactives face the fact that they really will have to play the role of the fall guy too often for their liking. But in doing so, they yank a society that is badly off track back into stability much to the benefit of the next three younger generations and then, because of the cycle, another reactive generation has to do it again.

Didn't the Boomers also arrive in "hangover mode" circa 1985 when the AIDS scare reared its ugly head, and they abruptly got themselves out of the partying mode and got serious about family, careers, etc., becoming everything they had once ridiculed at the height of the awakening? The free spirits of the 60's and 70's became the workaholic careerists of the 80's and 90's. I have said many times that Bommers en masse said "been there, done that" when it came to such things as late night partying and casual sex. So the experience you describe is not a Nomad phenomenon alone.

Originally Posted by Brian Beecher

Didn't the Boomers also arrive in "hangover mode" circa 1985 when the AIDS scare reared its ugly head, and they abruptly got themselves out of the partying mode and got serious about family, careers, etc., becoming everything they had once ridiculed at the height of the awakening? The free spirits of the 60's and 70's became the workaholic careerists of the 80's and 90's. I have said many times that Bommers en masse said "been there, done that" when it came to such things as late night partying and casual sex. So the experience you describe is not a Nomad phenomenon alone.

In a sense, every generation has a kind of 'hangover' when they reach middle age. It's such a total change and it corresponds to the turning involved. The two individualistic generational archtypes that are born in the post crises period, the idealist and the reactive, become (hopefully) more serious as the approaching next crises demands. Whereas the two post awakening generational archtypes, the civic and the adaptive, loosen up as the next awakening approaches.
The reactve generation hits middle age in a 4T and that is critical, for they are the one generation positioned to limit idealist excess after the elder adaptives age out of power.

With my personal birth position and current age, I have no problem seeing and feeling the changes midlife brings. I have to eat and drink the things I enjoy with more moderation now and I have to be more consistant about taking my daily walk after lunch. I have a mother to care for and two nephews as well. I have no choice but to be serious about such things and as the national mood turns darker over the next few years, I have no doubt that the X'ers will do what they have to do to be in position to anchor American family life just like the lost did during the great depression-WWII crises.

By and large, I'm starting to see Gen Xers (those approaching early 40s) hunker down and "grow up". Many of them are just getting married and starting families and that seems to have cooled their "frenetic" heels.

There are those Gen Xers, however, that are still into partying, drinking and acting like 20 year olds. And they look ridiculous. Pre or post seasonal behavior always looks ridiculous.

So, I agree with Herbal Tea. I think when called upon, our generation will rise to the task required in the T4T - if anything I think the main motivating factor will be to do it for their children's future.

Bria

Bria: So I've got what, three years left before I'll start looking ridiculous if I still drink and party?

After all, plenty of late-wave Xers are still in their late or even mid 20s; while I know quite a few people who have settled down in their early or mid 20s (including one 'classmate' who made a big show of getting married the day BEFORE graduating from college) I can't see myself doing any sort of settling down until I get my PhD at least!

Originally Posted by Brian Beecher

Didn't the Boomers also arrive in "hangover mode" circa 1985 when the AIDS scare reared its ugly head, and they abruptly got themselves out of the partying mode and got serious about family, careers, etc., becoming everything they had once ridiculed at the height of the awakening? The free spirits of the 60's and 70's became the workaholic careerists of the 80's and 90's. I have said many times that Bommers en masse said "been there, done that" when it came to such things as late night partying and casual sex. So the experience you describe is not a Nomad phenomenon alone.

Almost. It was the herpes scare a few years earlier that caused Boomers... straight ones, anyway... to rethink the whole Sexual Revolution thing. AIDS was still thought of as primarily a gay disease which didn't affect us.

At any rate, Boomers found a substitute for casual sex and drug use: greed-is-good conspicuous consumption. BMWs, Ralph Lauren polo shirts, trophy houses, morning triple-shot lattes, the never-ending search for the perfect three-dollar chocolate chip cookie.