Originally Posted by pbrower2a

Just watch the movie. It's one of the greatest ever made, and in nearly seventy years it has lost nothing.

I still say the book is better.

Each major party has a Gen-Xer on the ticket for POTUS... how serious is that for all of you?

I think this year marks a turning point. The very youngest Xers are in their late 20s. My 1980-cohort sister called me last night. She has never voted, but says she watched the Obama speech, is impressed and WILL casting her first vote for President in November.

The Crisis constellation is starting to line up, but this time, it seems odd. Where are the Boomers? Will the 2008-2012 presidency (either Obama's or McCain's) serve as an interim period, and a Boomer will emerge in 2012? Or if Obama's really one of the GCs, will everyone just put him into the Boomer camp, and extend the boundaries to the demographic boundary of 1964?

We DO live in interesting times! It's not just a proverb anymore.

Originally Posted by pbrower2a

Most people, given the chance, do what they can to avoid doing heavy physical labor.

I don't agree. It often comes down to what you define as work and what you define as recreation. I particularly don’t agree with the gross over generalization of “most people” you use on this point.

I mow with a scythe and fork my hay by hand. I also shovel shit without the benefit of a front end loader and I cut and split wood by hand. This is work, and it is recreation. It is also meditation. Yes, because of my chosen circumstance, it is necessary work but it is emotionally joyful and mentally grounding labor. This is due in large part because my frame of reference makes it so. I don’t look upon physical exertion as a bad thing. Instead, it’s something my body was MEANT TO DO and by doing it I gain a plentitude of physical, emotional and mental benefits. Those who see physical effort as a negative experience think I’m an idiot. Anyone who has ever experienced a “runner’s high” knows it’s a great way to get high without drugs. Those folks who know the nirvana-like state of being “in the zone” when crafting wood, painting, sculpting, etc. know exactly what I mean when I say “it is a meditation” My world-view does not separate recreation and work; intellect and hard labor; creativity and sweat. I am not a part of some special elite minority by any stretch. If you look around, you'll see that the zest for physically demanding challenges that call on a person's smarts and practiced skills is everywhere. Many people, possibly even most people, find these types of activities desirable.

That's why people go to college and that's why people not college material often seek ill-paid clerical work.

Wrong. I have a master’s degree and several post graduate certificates. I didn’t go to college to escape physical labor. Neither did most of the college graduates I know. Your assumptions about clerical workers is also, I believe, utterly off base.

Heavy physical work as performed by ranch hands, stevedores, loggers, oil-field roustabouts, steelworkers, construction laborers, and commercial fishermen often has danger and unpleasant conditions attached. Military combat is the ultimate combination of danger and unpleasant conditions.

Having done some time in several of the above (excluding military service but including roustabout and logger) I can certainly agree with this. However, you will not find clear divisions between these people and college educated poets, engineers, surveyors, chemists or public servants. Life is not that simple. Sometimes it just boils down to whether someone is lazy or not. Many artists, politicians, writers, and managers actively seek physical labor as a balm for the wounds of riding a desk. Many people are just lazy including some of the guys I used to work with in the oil fields.

Originally Posted by XerTeacher

Thanks, but I'll take your commendation in the future! I need to get my hunting license first. (The other night, I dreamed I had a shotgun and was hunting in the woods.)




I love hearing about what you're doing! And your wife sounds a LOT like some of my womenfriends here in Ann Arbor. Liberal, fully reality-based AND practical as well. The cure for "feeling sorry for yourself" is to grab a shovel and to start working. I just don't see where the self-esteem movement that I grew up with has done anything for people but make them lazy, selfish, and entitled.

People like you and your wife are the sort we'll need in the age to come. One of the science fiction authors whose work I like best is Orson Scott Card. In one of his books about the not-so-distant future, Pastwatch, much of the Northern Hemisphere has been destroyed by war. You have scientists (male and female) who are part of the Pastwatch program who use all this very sophisticated and advanced technology, then come home and live much as you describe. I think we'll look back at 20th century "fast food" in 100 years with the same eye that we now regard quack "patent medicines" of the 1900s.

On another message board, I have been arguing that some of the current pathos in society is due to mere idleness. Growing up in Detroit, and returning there to visit family, I see this all the time. My solution for the inner-city problem is to put those young men and women to WORK! By the mid-2010s, we need a new WPA. My GI grandfather worked as part of the CCC in the 1930s. It changed his life. Good, honest hard work in the forests of northern Michigan influenced his character, strengthened his body, and challenged his mind. He retained a deep affection for both nature *and* President Roosevelt during his long and prosperous life.

I love the work that organizations such as the Greening of Detroit is doing. We have a generation of inner-city kids of all races that is completely divorced from nature. There is now enough vacant land in the city that if properly treated, one could have every child in the school system learn basic gardening and animal husbandry. But of course the current black nationalist Boomer and X NON-leadership thinks of this as regressive, not progressive. (For the millionth time, thank God for the Millies! I did a lot of editorializing about the virtues of community, hard work, and preservation to my students and mentees. Now, whenever I am home, I hear "Hi, Ms. XerTeacher!" from young twentysomethings in various civic organizations and new businesses.)

I'm so fortunate to have been partially raised by my GI and Silent grandparents, and not typical black Boomers *or* Xers. It made for a very difficult time growing up, during the first iteration of Xer life when being cool and detached and hating anythingn that wasn't black was emphasized. But it will be practical Xers like us who will manage the Crisis. I see that now.

While in school, going home to help Grandma and Mom tend the garden, cook, do basic carpentry, paint, sew and the like made me a "total loser" who got teased (and whose teachers thought she was a plagiarist when I wrote a poem about flowers -- because of course, ghetto kids don't know what dianthus is!), now those same peers have found me on Facebook and look at what I can do as if I can walk on water. One sent me a message about how much she admired me. Others give a begrudging respect. Yet another cannot believe that if I want a cake, I can pull out flour, sugar, eggs and the like and MAKE one... you hear "you actually made this??" To which I, and my roommate (who is white, but who had almost the exact same childhood experiences of being a "weirdo") just shrug and say, "Whatever."

You and your wife are an inspiration, Skabungus. I hope that eventually I will be able to find a good person with similar goals, purchase land, put what we know to use, and learn even more.

Great post!!! My sister is your age and she, her husband, and her 9yo Millie daughter are getting into all the kind of stuff Skabungus is doing. She has cute house in the country and has a big garden and she raises free-range cattle, goats, chickens, ducks, geese, turkeys, and pheasants.

Originally Posted by Skabungus

...It often comes down to what you define as work and what you define as recreation. I particularly don’t agree with the gross over generalization of “most people” you use on this point.

I mow with a scythe and fork my hay by hand. I also shovel shit without the benefit of a front end loader and I cut and split wood by hand. This is work, and it is recreation. It is also meditation...

-I don't know about "recreation" or "meditation", but it's amazing how much money you can save when you walk or bicycle instead of using a car, and how much you save when you do your yardwork or snow shovelling by hand; exercise is a side benefit.

Originally Posted by jamesdglick

-I don't know about "recreation" or "meditation", but it's amazing how much money you can save when you walk or bicycle instead of using a car, and how much you save when you do your yardwork or snow shovelling by hand; exercise is a side benefit.

Same goes for remodeling your own bathroom, and re-siding the entire exterior of your house!

Originally Posted by Roadbldr '59

Originally Posted by jamesdglick

-I don't know about "recreation" or "meditation", but it's amazing how much money you can save when you walk or bicycle instead of using a car, and how much you save when you do your yardwork or snow shovelling by hand; exercise is a side benefit.

Same goes for remodeling your own bathroom, and re-siding the entire exterior of your house!

Many of the service jobs we've created in the last 30 years are going to succumb to just that DIY spirit. Of course, it helps to be at least minimally competent. I've seen more than a few DIY projects that cost more to repair than they would have cost if had been contracted from the start.

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

Many of the service jobs we've created in the last 30 years are going to succumb to just that DIY spirit. Of course, it helps to be at least minimally competent. I've seen more than a few DIY projects that cost more to repair than they would have cost if had been contracted from the start.

Tell me about it! I've spent more money on contractors and have them ask me (as did a neighbor doing me a favor with one small job), "Who DID this work?!?!?" I answer with a sigh "The guy who had the house before me."

Originally Posted by Roadbldr '59

Same goes for remodeling your own bathroom, and re-siding the entire exterior of your house!

Well, I can attest that Roadbldr '59 did a beautiful job with his bathroom and has been doing a bangup job with his exterior. He's got the engineer's attention to detail that helps.

Originally Posted by The Wonkette

Well, I can attest that Roadbldr '59 did a beautiful job with his bathroom and has been doing a bangup job with his exterior. He's got the engineer's attention to detail that helps.

Gee... I glad that someone here has faith in my abilities .

Though I can say I understand completely. When I had my house in West Seattle, my waterline sprung a leak. Turned out the guy who owned the house before me replaced the line himself (only three years earlier) and... um... cut a few corners. He used PVC pipe instead of copper (much cheaper), and instead of installing it with 2 feet of cover like the code says (he was lazy), placed the pipe only one foot down, then bent the pipe so it would connect with the 2-foot-deep tee at the curbside.

Three guesses where the leak sprung... and the first two don't count. Guess that means that much-vaunted Xer pragmatism is in some cases overrated.

Originally Posted by Roadbldr '59

Gee... I glad that someone here has faith in my abilities .

Though I can say I understand completely. When I had my house in West Seattle, my waterline sprung a leak. Turned out the guy who owned the house before me replaced the line himself (only three years earlier) and... um... cut a few corners. He used PVC pipe instead of copper (much cheaper), and instead of installing it with 2 feet of cover like the code says (he was lazy), placed the pipe only one foot down, then bent the pipe so it would connect with the 2-foot-deep tee at the curbside.

Three guesses where the leak sprung... and the first two don't count. Guess that means that much-vaunted Xer pragmatism is in some cases overrated.

Hmm. Was the previous owner of your Seattle home an Xer? Slacker!

Though I can say I understand completely. When I had my house in West Seattle, my waterline sprung a leak. Turned out the guy who owned the house before me replaced the line himself (only three years earlier) and... um... cut a few corners. He used PVC pipe instead of copper (much cheaper), and instead of installing it with 2 feet of cover like the code says (he was lazy), placed the pipe only one foot down, then bent the pipe so it would connect with the 2-foot-deep tee at the curbside.

Probably at the PVC/copper junction.

Three guesses where the leak sprung... and the first two don't count. Guess that means that much-vaunted Xer pragmatism is in some cases overrated.

Actually, Roadbldr got pwned. I'd say said X'er was planning to sell, so why spend to excess on "fix ups" ?

Originally Posted by The Wonkette

Hmm. Was the previous owner of your Seattle home an Xer? Slacker!

Try thrifty.

Originally Posted by Jesse Manoogian

For this reason, I don't think Generation X, as a collective, will ever be as family-oriented as the Lost Generation. It's just too diverse, with too many types of people, to have a landslide majority shift over to the conservative, curmudgeonly, Von-Trappesque home-and-hearth homey family protectors S&H say they're supposed to become.

Uh, wow, things have changed since this post. As an xer parent of a 2 yr old, I can say that we (my wife and I) are WAY more family oriented than anyone else in our families. Our friends with kids also seem to be way more inclined to be the same. Do Xers seem serious enough to all of you now?

Xers will seem serious when boomers break thru some of the existential crust holding them in a cultural trance of consumerism. The "I" doesn't last forever, it just seems that way for a while. But a legacy does live on.

Originally Posted by The Wonkette

Hmm. Was the previous owner of your Seattle home an Xer? Slacker!

Jenny-- My guess is that he was right about my age or a couple years older... late Boomer. Which makes a certain amount of sense... Boomers do tend to be so full of themselves that they overinflate their own talents and self worth. An Xer would more likely have done the work himself, after first teaching himself how to do it right.

Rags-- The pipe, btw, burst right where Matt bent down the 1 foot deep pipe to reach the 2 foot deep tee.

Originally Posted by Earl and Mooch

I still say the book is better.

I agree, the book has a lot more meaning, while Hollywood's The Wizard of Oz was distorting Baum's world to make a response to Disney's Snow White. The emerald city isn't emerald--it's actually white. When you enter they have to put on emerald lenses that makes everything look emerald (rose colored lenses were probably too obvious a thought). Yes, the book and subsequent fairy tales are much better. Who doesn't find a story where all of the girls of Oz form an army and revolt and kick them men out of power interesting/refreshing (Ozma of Oz)? Or a story where Auntie Em and family move to Oz because they've lost the farm in Kansas and Dorothy introduces her Aunt and Uncle to all of Oz?

Yes, the books are a whole lot more interesting than that movie. As usual Hollywood ruins everything. ;-)

~Chas'88

I guess this is what you call getting serious. And does this mean that he will stop smoking weed?

Snoop Dogg joins Nation of Islam

Snoop Dogg has revealed he has joined the Nation of Islam after appearing at the religious group's annual Saviours' Day event in Chicago.

The rapper, who described himself as the "leader of the hip-hop community", told followers he would share what he learned with other musicians.

He told reporters that he joined the group because he was "doing what's right and representing what's right".

It preaches self-reliance for black people within an Islamic framework.

At Sunday's event, the rapper sat on stage while Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan gave a speech.

“ I live how I'm supposed to live as far as doing what's right and representing what's right - that's why I was here today ”
Snoop Dogg

He said afterwards that listening to the speech from Mr Farrakhan was "about a mirror - it's about looking at yourself".

He added: "We're doing a lot of wrongs among ourselves that need correcting."

When asked if he had joined the movement he said: "I'm already in the Nation, that's why I'm here.

"I'm an advocate for peace, I've been in the peace movement ever since I've been making music.

"My whole thing is not about really trying to push my thing on you.

"It's just about the way I live, and I live how I'm supposed to live as far as doing what's right and representing what's right - that's why I was here today."

He would not say when he had joined the Nation of Islam.

Other rappers previously involved with the movement include NWA star-turned-actor Ice Cube.

Originally Posted by Mr. Reed

I guess this is what you call getting serious. And does this mean that he will stop smoking weed?

Snoop Dogg joins Nation of Islam

Snoop Dogg has revealed he has joined the Nation of Islam after appearing at the religious group's annual Saviours' Day event in Chicago.

The rapper, who described himself as the "leader of the hip-hop community", told followers he would share what he learned with other musicians.

He told reporters that he joined the group because he was "doing what's right and representing what's right".

It preaches self-reliance for black people within an Islamic framework.

At Sunday's event, the rapper sat on stage while Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan gave a speech.

“ I live how I'm supposed to live as far as doing what's right and representing what's right - that's why I was here today ”
Snoop Dogg

He said afterwards that listening to the speech from Mr Farrakhan was "about a mirror - it's about looking at yourself".

He added: "We're doing a lot of wrongs among ourselves that need correcting."

When asked if he had joined the movement he said: "I'm already in the Nation, that's why I'm here.

"I'm an advocate for peace, I've been in the peace movement ever since I've been making music.

"My whole thing is not about really trying to push my thing on you.

"It's just about the way I live, and I live how I'm supposed to live as far as doing what's right and representing what's right - that's why I was here today."

He would not say when he had joined the Nation of Islam.

Other rappers previously involved with the movement include NWA star-turned-actor Ice Cube.

Is there, like, a deserted island in the middle of nowhere that we could... re-settle... these people on???

Originally Posted by Roadbldr '59

Is there, like, a deserted island in the middle of nowhere that we could... re-settle... these people on???

No. I believe that the "deserted island" is a myth. Every single piece of land is under some political authority, and probably has at least one person already living on it.

Originally Posted by Roadbldr '59

Is there, like, a deserted island in the middle of nowhere that we could... re-settle... these people on???

YES!

And they can grow their own weed - or not!

Nation of Islam has always struck me as very Boomer in it's worldview. I have the feeling they will be losing pull on Xers and Millies to folks like, Bill Kosby of all people, who seems to actually have a better sense of where things are headed.

Originally Posted by Roadbldr '59

Is there, like, a deserted island in the middle of nowhere that we could... re-settle... these people on???

1) I assume you're being facetious; I'm not "in" to forcible re-locations.

2) How about Anatarctica?

Originally Posted by Mr. Reed

I guess this is what you call getting serious. And does this mean that he will stop smoking weed?

Snoop Dogg joins Nation of Islam

Snoop Dogg has revealed he has joined the Nation of Islam after appearing at the religious group's annual Saviours' Day event in Chicago.

The rapper, who described himself as the "leader of the hip-hop community", told followers he would share what he learned with other musicians.

He told reporters that he joined the group because he was "doing what's right and representing what's right".

It preaches self-reliance for black people within an Islamic framework.

At Sunday's event, the rapper sat on stage while Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan gave a speech.

“ I live how I'm supposed to live as far as doing what's right and representing what's right - that's why I was here today ”
Snoop Dogg

He said afterwards that listening to the speech from Mr Farrakhan was "about a mirror - it's about looking at yourself".

He added: "We're doing a lot of wrongs among ourselves that need correcting."

When asked if he had joined the movement he said: "I'm already in the Nation, that's why I'm here.

"I'm an advocate for peace, I've been in the peace movement ever since I've been making music.

"My whole thing is not about really trying to push my thing on you.

"It's just about the way I live, and I live how I'm supposed to live as far as doing what's right and representing what's right - that's why I was here today."

He would not say when he had joined the Nation of Islam.

Other rappers previously involved with the movement include NWA star-turned-actor Ice Cube.

I coulda sworn that I've both, heard and read, that he gave up "the chronic" a couple years ago... not that I keep up with stuff like that...

Is there, like, a deserted island in the middle of nowhere that we could... re-settle... these people on???

After all, wasn't the North's original plan before the CW to ship all of the black slaves back to Africa to some land we'd bought there and gave independence to, aka Liberia?

I can definately see how "well" that idea turned out *rollseyes*. If virtual reality is ever developed it no longer will be a "deserted island" it'll be "their own alternate virtual reality" a la The Matrix. Who knows maybe it would get so bad as no one would know what was "actual reality" or "virtual reality" a la Life is a Dream by Caulderon.

~Chas'88

I think the factor driving all this may be the inherent diversity of Generation X. S&H themselves say that Generation X is hard to pin down because they don't have a "generational core". While at least the Lost Generation had its epitomic archetype (the black-dressed bohemian alienated by World War I and Prohibition who drinks coffee and reads European poets and Julian Green in Parisian coffeeshops), just as the Greatest Generation and Baby Boomers had in their own heydays, Generation X has no one type that epitomizes the generation. In high school and college, Xers were punks, grungers, preppies, hip-hoppers/rappers, goths, industrials, skaters, Birkenstocked neo-hippies, "new" country good old boys, new-wavers, valley girls and the first emo kids (before the generation to which you and I belong took over emo)

Yes, I agree that Gen Xers don't have a generational core and are very hard to characterize. Researchers can try and use a limited set of categories (like the 16 of Myers-Briggs) and statistics to paint a picture of (or compose a song about, if you're more auditory than visual) our American generations. For example, most Boomers were neither Hippies nor Yuppies nor counter-cultural nutters, and the stats from surveys prove it.

Many Republican and otherwise conservative Gen Xers have become mature adults and good citizens, which I suppose is what was meant by being 'serious'. I'll even agree to putting a moderate percentage of Liberal/Democrat Gen Xers into that 'serious' category too.

Yes, Xers are indeed diverse, and I think this presents an extra challenge for this group to overcome. I know growing up, especially in high school, the differences in Xers personality was very diverse. Of course you have that in every generation to a degree, but I've always found these interesting....

I noted differences between the parenting skills of Silent Parents vs. Boomer Parents who had Xer children. My parents were Silent, and very conservative, followed set societal rules, my husband's parents were extremely liberal Boomers, allowing the kids to party at their house, permitting alcohol, etc.

Then you had the divorce divide. I found it was difficult to click with other kids who had been through a family divorce (I had not), and children with similar family backgrounds for the most part tended to hang out together.

Extreme differences between rich and poor, during a time of the Material 80s and 90s

Religion divide.... many Boomer parents neglected religion, and many Xer Children had poor to no religious education at all. Historically in America, Churches have functioned as a social glue and provided areas for social networking. Without this glue, there is more fragmentation in "common beliefs."

I have noticed that many 3T debates are still continuing now. Also, I noticed that Silents are desperately clinging to political power. I noticed that many Silents still think that they are the generation in charge of politics and business, many Boomers still think that they are still the young generation, many Xers act like they are in their late teens or in early college, and many Millennials act like they are in pre-school or in elementary school. It seems to me that age roles of living US generations are by and large the same as they were in 1986-1989. It seems like each generation is refusing to let go of their old phase of life and is refusing to transition into the new phase of life. Many Silents want to extend their stay as political and business experts, many Boomers go to extreme measures to look 20 years younger than their age, many Xers want to extend their youth years, and Millennials just don't want to grow up. It seems to me that each generation is comfortable with the phase of life that it occupied since late 1980s, so much that they don't want to move on. I see this A LOT in Xers especially! Many of them still act like it's the grunge era! Many of them still retain their habits from that time. This is probably why Millennials are so much infantilized and treated like little children, because the previous generation has not fully moved itself into adulthood. Does anyone agree with what I had just written? Does anyone also notice the tendency of each generation to cling to their 3T phase of life?