There is a difference in the car insurance and the health insurance comparison. A person who is cancelled by a health insurance provider because they are sick or ill is still most likely sick or ill and will continue to incur ongoing expenses in the future for that illness which caused them to be cancelled. An auto insurer can cancel you after an expensive claim - but that event that caused those expenditures on behalf of the insurer has ended. Future accidents are different events unlike the sickness or illness or chronic condition which is ever ongoing and a mere continuation of past events.

Originally Posted by wtrg8

The same concept is used with car insurance.

If you can't see the difference between insurance for a personal possession and ONE'S HEALTH you are beyond hope.

Which gets to the crux of the matter very nicely....... the entire purpose of an insurance company is to make a profit from the paying of premiums. They do not care if it comes from property or persons or anything else. To them, the item being insured is only a means to an end and the end is profit for the corporation.

The question that we must answer as a society is to what extent we are willing to let corporations profit from the payment of health services.

Originally Posted by Odin

If you can't see the difference between insurance for a personal possession and ONE'S HEALTH you are beyond hope.

Well, if you get into a car accident, its paying for your care at the hospital. So yes, it is one in the same. BTW, I have a heart murmur and if I didn't have Cobra, I would be shit out of luck for coverage. So I am happy for what I have, it may not be the best, but its mine.

Just tell me this, Odin, have you read the plan since by the lack of an answer from pbower2a hasn't?

wtrg8
for some reason- perhaps out of sheer will - you are not seeing this. Of course all insurance is insurance. A rose is a rose is a rose and all that. It is all intended to put profits in the pockets of corporations. But there are major differences between automobile insurance or home insurance and health insurance functions. Insurance on an automobile or a home is to insurance against unforseen and terrible events such as a car crash which causes expensive repair or outright replacement bills or a house fire which will also cause expensive bills. Once that event occurs it has an end. The insurance company must pay you for that event since you had a valid policy on the day the event occurred.

With health insurance, the event - illness or sickness - is ongoing over a long period of time. There may not be an identifiable end to the event other than outright death of the patient. The insured party has a policy which obligates the insurer to pay for treatment but having done so, the insurer can then cancel to prevent further treatment for the same disease of illness simply because they do not want to pay any more money and cut into corporate profits.

An example would be cancer. Let us say that a person has a valid health insurance policy and they develop stomach cancer. They go into the hospital for surgical procedures and the hospital and doctor bill the insurer for $30,000.00 in legitimate expenses. The person who is ill has a form of cancer which has a high chance of spreading to other organs and becoming ten times as expensive to treat over the next year or two. Only time and testing will tell. So having paid the bill for $30,000.00 Big Insurance Company cancels the health insurance policy of the person.

They may very well still have cancer in their body. The event may be very well still ongoing. The illness may not have been cured or vanquished. The patient could very well still be sick or is going to get even sicker because of an already diagnosed condition that occurred while they had the policy.

In plain English - that sort of thing is wrong and should be considered illegal.

I hope you can see the difference as to how health insurance is fundamentally different that car insurance.

Originally Posted by haymarket martyr

wtrg8
for some reason- perhaps out of sheer will - you are not seeing this. Of course all insurance is insurance. A rose is a rose is a rose and all that. It is all intended to put profits in the pockets of corporations. But there are major differences between automobile insurance or home insurance and health insurance functions. Insurance on an automobile or a home is to insurance against unforseen and terrible events such as a car crash which causes expensive repair or outright replacement bills or a house fire which will also cause expensive bills. Once that event occurs it has an end. The insurance company must pay you for that event since you had a valid policy on the day the event occurred.

With health insurance, the event - illness or sickness - is ongoing over a long period of time. There may not be an identifiable end to the event other than outright death of the patient. The insured party has a policy which obligates the insurer to pay for treatment but having done so, the insurer can then cancel to prevent further treatment for the same disease of illness simply because they do not want to pay any more money and cut into corporate profits.

An example would be cancer. Let us say that a person has a valid health insurance policy and they develop stomach cancer. They go into the hospital for surgical procedures and the hospital and doctor bill the insurer for $30,000.00 in legitimate expenses. The person who is ill has a form of cancer which has a high chance of spreading to other organs and becoming ten times as expensive to treat over the next year or two. Only time and testing will tell. So having paid the bill for $30,000.00 Big Insurance Company cancels the health insurance policy of the person.

They may very well still have cancer in their body. The event may be very well still ongoing. The illness may not have been cured or vanquished. The patient could very well still be sick or is going to get even sicker because of an already diagnosed condition that occurred while they had the policy.

In plain English - that sort of thing is wrong and should be considered illegal.

I hope you can see the difference as to how health insurance is fundamentally different that car insurance.

I know the difference between the two types of insurances. Fine, tell your President to stop making deals with the Big Pharma/ Health Insurance companies and blow up the entire system. And then if this is now unnecessary, catastrophic injury policies are null and void and we can have some real Tort reform.

What you just said makes no sense to what I posted.

Originally Posted by haymarket martyr

What you just said makes no sense to what I posted.

Earlier I threw up a softball for you and I deserved to have it slammed back in my face. Everyone has a price on their head, living or when you die. Doesn't matter what medical condition one may have. We are just check boxes and whether we can we afford this treatment or not. Doesn't matter if the Federal Government does it or an insurance company does it to you.

Originally Posted by pbrower2a

They will show themselves unreasonable and ineffective. The difference between liberals and the Hard Right is that liberals read 60-page PDFs while the Hard Right accepts and relays fevered slogans at face value...

-Oh, like Odin, here:

Originally Posted by Odin

Glick, the book is The Great Depression: America 1929-1941 by Robert McElvaine. Look it up yourself, I'm not your slave.

-Since you were so quick to quote it as a source when you falsely called me a liar, I thought you'd do us all the favor of posting the quote that gave you the idea that Father Coughlin was pro-capitialist. Oh well...

...and here:

Originally Posted by Odin

People like this scare the bejeezies out of me...

Yeah...

Originally Posted by wtrg8

...Fine, tell your President to stop making deals with the Big Pharma/ Health Insurance companies and blow up the entire system. And then if this is now unnecessary, catastrophic injury policies are null and void and we can have some real Tort reform.

1) I like "loser pays" for tort reform;

2) President Obama is your President, too, FWIW.

---

Originally Posted by haymarket martyr

WARNING: The poster known as jamesdglick has a history of engaging in fraud. He makes things up out of his own head and attempts to use these blatant lies to score points in his arguments. When you call him on it, he will only lie further. He has such a reputation for doing this that many people here are cowed into silence and will not acknowledge it or confront him on it.

Anyone who attempts to engage with glick will discover this and find out you have wasted your time and energy on an intellectual fraud of the worst sort.

-So cry many Boomers (self-professed Lefties, mostly) whenever they fail to explain their hypocritical self-justifications, their double-standards, and their double-think forays into evil. Perhaps their consciences bother them, perhaps not. Who knows.

Originally Posted by wtrg8

Well, if you get into a car accident, its paying for your care at the hospital. So yes, it is one in the same. BTW, I have a heart murmur and if I didn't have Cobra, I would be shit out of luck for coverage. So I am happy for what I have, it may not be the best, but its mine.

Just tell me this, Odin, have you read the plan since by the lack of an answer from pbower2a hasn't?

There is no single "plan", there are several different bills being bandied about the Senate. If I were in charge I would put a Canadian-style Single-Payer system.

from Odin

If I were in charge I would put a Canadian-style Single-Payer system.

as would I........ just what part of the delivery of health care does the insurance corporations administer anyways? And now they want it written into law that they can keep 35% out of every dollar for their own profits plus expenses. Twenty years ago is was 15%. Currently is is around 20%.

This has got to stop and stop now.

Dante put bankers into a low level of hell - if only he had known about insurance executives.

Originally Posted by Odin

There is no single "plan", there are several different bills being bandied about the Senate. If I were in charge I would put a Canadian-style Single-Payer system.

Sign me up when my Congressman practices what he preaches. The great Canadian Style Single-Payer System, see link;

http://www.newsmax.com/insidecover/c...19/250006.html

Originally Posted by jamesdglick

2) President Obama is your President, too, FWIW.

Thank you for the correction, today is an off blog day for me. But he also need to stop bashing the GOP if he is cutting deals with Big Pharma and Health Insurance companies.

Originally Posted by wtrg8

Sign me up, when my Congressman practices what he preaches. The great Canadian Style Single-Payer System, see link;

http://www.newsmax.com/insidecover/c...19/250006.html

Not a legit news source. And typical right-wing lies about the Canadian Health system to boot. The Canadians themselves obviously like it, it's the 3rd rail of Canadian politics, touch it and you die.

Originally Posted by Odin

Not a legit new source.

Kinda like dailykos

Originally Posted by wtrg8

Kinda like dailykos

Kos is blog-message board hybrid, not a news site, and is far less biased than Newsmax or Fox. A Left-wing version of Fox would be WSWS.

Originally Posted by Odin

Kos is blog-message board hybrid, not a news site, and is far less biased than Newsmax or Fox. A Left-wing version of Fox would be WSWS.

Fine from an article in BC;

http://www.vancouversun.com/business...838/story.html

Originally Posted by wtrg8

Originally Posted by Odin

Kos is blog-message board hybrid, not a news site, and is far less biased than Newsmax or Fox. A Left-wing version of Fox would be WSWS.

Fine from an article in BC;

http://www.vancouversun.com/business...838/story.html

Your article was attributed as follows: "Nadeem Esmail is the director of health system performance studies at the Fraser Institute". Why not just quote the Cato Institute and be done with it. The Fraser Institute is just the Canadian equivalent. Why should we expect anything positive on universal healthcare from them?

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights says:

Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

Here is a company which will manufacture anything you need for a public campaign including grassroots support ..... for a fee of course.

http://advantageconsultants.org/index.html

Reminds me of Edward Arnold snarling in the great 1939 film MR. SMITH GOES TO WASHINGTON that he has made public opinion his whole life.

Originally Posted by Odin

Most rich people are lazy trust fund kids that didn't do any real work in their lives, wile working class stiffs like my parents work their asses off and can't get ahead. Calling poor people lazy is BLAMING THE VICTIM, it is no different than telling rape victims it was their fault that hey got raped.

-False. Most millionaires are self-made.

Playwrite, the self-proclaimed trust fund baby, is the exception to the rule, not the rule.

Originally Posted by Brian Rush

No it hasn't. The fact is that every country that has national health care (which is to say, all advanced economies except ours) pays less overall for health care than we do for better care for more people...

-Because they ration it in ways which no private US insurance company would dare to do; they'd either go out of business from lack of customers (if it were in the contract), or get sued for breach of contract (if not).

Originally Posted by Odin

IIRC American doctors make almost twice as much as British doctors. Partially because the AMA purposely creates a license shortage to drive up doctors' salaries and because the cost of college and medical school is insane.

-True, but how will Obamacare change that?

Originally Posted by Odin

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights says:

-In America, you also have the right to get off your butt and create goods & services which other people want iot earn it.

Originally Posted by Odin

Many of us with Asperger's have trouble finding steady employment and as such CANNOT AFFORD HEALTH INSURANCE. That is why I get Minnesota Medical Assistance.

...which might explain your lack of empathy for those stuck with high marginal tax rates.

BTW, why can't you get a job? An "Aspie" will probably never make it as a salesman, but, as I suspected:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome

"In the social world there is no great benefit to a precise eye for detail, but in the worlds of math, computing, cataloguing, music, linguistics, engineering, and science, such an eye for detail can lead to success rather than failure... It has been argued that the genes for Asperger's combination of abilities have operated throughout recent human evolution and have made remarkable contributions to human history."

...sometimes, I think that half the people in the non-HUMINT fields of Military Intelligence have Aspergers syndrome.

[QUOTE=haymarket martyr;275154]Here is a company which will manufacture anything you need for a public campaign including grassroots support ..... for a fee of course.

http://advantageconsultants.org/index.html

Oops, more astro-turfing!

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/6571953.html

"U.S. Rep. Sheila Jackson Lee on Thursday distanced herself from a University of Houston graduate student and Texas Obama delegate who falsely identified herself as a pediatric physician at the congresswoman's health care reform town hall meeting this week."

..and some more:

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2009/08/09/will-media-investigate-astroturf-recruitment-craigslist

...Odin's dream job.

---
Back to Playwrite:

I'd still love to know: When PW was supposedly visiting SE Asia, did he bother to check out the "Anti-War" movement's handiwork in the re-education camps, and in the killing fields? The answer seems to be NO...

Back to Haymarket':

I'd still love to know: Who paid Haymarket's Military Service Tax? Come on, I know you're retired, Haymarket. I'd think it'd be easy to go check out the old county draft records from 1969. You can look the guy up, and thank him for his inconvenience...

---

Originally Posted by haymarket martyr

WARNING: The poster known as jamesdglick has a history of engaging in fraud. He makes things up out of his own head and attempts to use these blatant lies to score points in his arguments. When you call him on it, he will only lie further. He has such a reputation for doing this that many people here are cowed into silence and will not acknowledge it or confront him on it.

Anyone who attempts to engage with glick will discover this and find out you have wasted your time and energy on an intellectual fraud of the worst sort.

-So cry many Boomers (self-professed Lefties, mostly) whenever they fail to explain their hypocritical self-justifications, their double-standards, and their double-think forays into evil. Perhaps their consciences bother them, perhaps not. Who knows.

Originally Posted by jamesdglick

BTW, why can't you get a job? An "Aspie" will probably never make it as a salesman, but, as I suspected:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome

"In the social world there is no great benefit to a precise eye for detail, but in the worlds of math, computing, cataloguing, music, linguistics, engineering, and science, such an eye for detail can lead to success rather than failure... It has been argued that the genes for Asperger's combination of abilities have operated throughout recent human evolution and have made remarkable contributions to human history."

...sometimes, I think that half the people in the non-HUMINT fields of Military Intelligence have Aspergers syndrome.

Because I haven't been able to finish college yet because tuition costs are so insane and I simply cannot handle working at a low-paying service industry "McJob". I also have issues with bosses because I simply don't "get" how a supervisor wants his ass kissed until it's too late, I'll be honest, thinking I'm being helpful, and the supervisor will take it as a slight against his authority and position. And finally there is this BS "needs people skills" fad requirement even in jobs where it's not necessary.

JamesdGlick asked "
BTW, why can't you get a job? An "Aspie" will probably never make it as a salesman, but, as I suspected:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome

"In the social world there is no great benefit to a precise eye for detail, but in the worlds of math, computing, cataloguing, music, linguistics, engineering, and science, such an eye for detail can lead to success rather than failure... It has been argued that the genes for Asperger's combination of abilities have operated throughout recent human evolution and have made remarkable contributions to human history."

...sometimes, I think that half the people in the non-HUMINT fields of Military Intelligence have Aspergers syndrome. "

I can tell you why and here's why:

No matter how good a job you can do, you still have to pass through a number of gatekeepers, all of whom are deeply, blindly committed to the rah-rah-team-player jolly-good-fellow model of a good employee. Starting with Human Resources and ending with the immediate supervisor who wants you all to walk with him or her in lockstep while putting on the ENTHUSIAM! And if you don't, your loyalty and commitment is suspect and you get the dreadful words on your performance review "Pat is not a team player."

'Nuff said?

Originally Posted by Odin

Because I haven't been able to finish college yet because tuition costs are so insane and I simply cannot handle working at a low-paying service industry "McJob". I also have issues with bosses because I simply don't "get" how a supervisor wants his ass kissed until it's too late, I'll be honest, thinking I'm being helpful, and the supervisor will take it as a slight against his authority and position. And finally there is this BS "needs people skills" fad requirement even in jobs where it's not necessary.

Odin - here's where a good dose of temperament theory would stand you in good stead as it has me. I'm going to recommend a book called Brains and Careers by David Keirsey. I have it on order and it should come in Monday. Meanwhile, let me give you the website for the forum thereof: http://brainsandcareers.com/phpBB3/index.php

Even though large numbers of the posts are in my mind useless fluff, that's because there are people on the forum of all sorts, including those who live in a sea of affirmations or a swa of wisecracks. However, we're rather good at digging diamonds out of garbage if there are any there.

Originally Posted by The Grey Badger

I can tell you why and here's why:

No matter how good a job you can do, you still have to pass through a number of gatekeepers, all of whom are deeply, blindly committed to the rah-rah-team-player jolly-good-fellow model of a good employee. Starting with Human Resources and ending with the immediate supervisor who wants you all to walk with him or her in lockstep while putting on the ENTHUSIAM! And if you don't, your loyalty and commitment is suspect and you get the dreadful words on your performance review "Pat is not a team player."

'Nuff said?

BINGO!!!

Originally Posted by The Grey Badger

Odin - here's where a good dose of temperament theory would stand you in good stead as it has me. I'm going to recommend a book called Brains and Careers by David Keirsey. I have it on order and it should come in Monday. Meanwhile, let me give you the website for the forum thereof: http://brainsandcareers.com/phpBB3/index.php

Even though large numbers of the posts are in my mind useless fluff, that's because there are people on the forum of all sorts, including those who live in a sea of affirmations or a swa of wisecracks. However, we're rather good at digging diamonds out of garbage if there are any there.

Thanks for the reference and the link!