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Thread: It's time for national healthcare - Page 13







Post#301 at 09-17-2009 08:23 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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Perspective.

Four of nine doctors, or 45%, said they "would consider leaving their practice or taking an early retirement" if Congress passes the plan the Democratic majority and White House have in mind.

In this country, the number of doctors is already lagging population growth.
From 2003 to 2006, the number of active physicians in the U.S. grew by just 0.8% a year, adding a total of 25,700 doctors.
Recent population growth has been 1% a year. Patients, in short, are already being added faster than physicians, creating a medical bottleneck.
The great concern is that, with increased mandates, lower pay and less freedom to practice, doctors could abandon medicine in droves, as the IBD/TIPP Poll suggests. Under the proposed medical overhaul, an additional 47 million people would have to be cared for — an 18% increase in patient loads, without an equivalent increase in doctors. The actual effect could be somewhat less because a significant share of the uninsured already get care.


The U.S. today has just 2.4 physicians per 1,000 population — below the median of 3.1 for members of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, the official club of wealthy nations.
Adding millions of patients to physicians' caseloads would threaten to overwhelm the system.
"It's like giving everyone free bus passes, but there are only two buses," Dr. Ted Epperly, president of the American Academy of Family Physicians, told the Associated Press.
Hope for a surge in new doctors may be misplaced. A recent study from the Association of American Medical Colleges found steadily declining enrollment in medical schools since 1980.
The study found that, just with current patient demand, the U.S. will have 159,000 fewer doctors than it needs by 2025.
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#302 at 09-17-2009 09:25 PM by Roadbldr '59 [at Vancouver, Washington joined Jul 2001 #posts 8,275]
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Quote Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon View Post
Yes, there were several companies that wanted to deliver first class mail, but only in high population areas. It's called cherry picking. Insurance companies live and die on it. What company wouldn't want to provide mandatory flood insurance where floods never occur?
In the mid-80s California became (I believe) the first state to mandate automobile insurance. The result: insurance rates doubled by the end of the decade, to the point where the legislature had to pass more laws rolling back rates and regulating when and why they could be increased.
"Better hurry. There's a storm coming. His storm!!!" :-O -Abigail Freemantle, "The Stand" by Stephen King







Post#303 at 09-18-2009 03:22 PM by Mr. Reed [at Intersection of History joined Jun 2001 #posts 4,376]
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Right Arrow

I would've never imagined this:

O'REILLY: The public option now is done. We discussed this, it's not going to happen. But you say that this little marketplace that they're going to set up, whereby the federal government would subsidize insurance for some Americans, that is, in your opinion, a public option?

OWCHARENKO: Well, it has massive new federal regulation. So you don't necessarily need a public option if the federal government is going to control and regulate the type of health insurance that Americans can buy.

O'REILLY: But you know, I want that, Ms. Owcharenko. I want that. I want, not for personally for me, but for working Americans, to have a option, that if they don't like their health insurance, if it's too expensive, they can't afford it, if the government can cobble together a cheaper insurance policy that gives the same benefits, I see that as a plus for the folks.


--> --> -->
"The urge to dream, and the will to enable it is fundamental to being human and have coincided with what it is to be American." -- Neil deGrasse Tyson
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Post#304 at 09-18-2009 03:34 PM by Wes84 [at joined Jun 2009 #posts 856]
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Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Reed View Post
I would've never imagined this:

O'REILLY: The public option now is done. We discussed this, it's not going to happen. But you say that this little marketplace that they're going to set up, whereby the federal government would subsidize insurance for some Americans, that is, in your opinion, a public option?

OWCHARENKO: Well, it has massive new federal regulation. So you don't necessarily need a public option if the federal government is going to control and regulate the type of health insurance that Americans can buy.

O'REILLY: But you know, I want that, Ms. Owcharenko. I want that. I want, not for personally for me, but for working Americans, to have a option, that if they don't like their health insurance, if it's too expensive, they can't afford it, if the government can cobble together a cheaper insurance policy that gives the same benefits, I see that as a plus for the folks.

--> --> -->
This seems too good to be true. O'Reilly may forced to retract this statement in response to the people who are against healthcare reform. This is a good possibility being that many of these people are followers of his show.







Post#305 at 09-18-2009 03:37 PM by haymarket martyr [at joined Sep 2008 #posts 2,547]
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Wait a dingdong minute. Are you implying that folks like O'Reilly actual do tailor their on air views to kiss the fat behinds of the viewers who watch and pay them?!?!?!?!







Post#306 at 09-18-2009 04:35 PM by Wes84 [at joined Jun 2009 #posts 856]
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Quote Originally Posted by haymarket martyr View Post
Wait a dingdong minute. Are you implying that folks like O'Reilly actual do tailor their on air views to kiss the fat behinds of the viewers who watch and pay them?!?!?!?!
Sort of. Folks, such as O’Reilly, have made a large profit off their conservative viewpoints, so why stop? However, I am not saying that there is no authenticity in what they express as being their political viewpoints. I believe that the O’Reillys of the world do believe in much of what they say, and much of this is what they feel will sell. Therefore, they may not be very forthcoming with their feelings. As a result, I will be surprised if O’Reilly goes on a passionate campaign in support of the public option (however, it would be interesting if he did).







Post#307 at 09-24-2009 10:57 AM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Yea, baby, it's 60 again -

http://wbztv.com/local/paul.kirk.senate.2.1204388.html

Source: Kirk To Be Named Interim Senator
Kirk - exactly what was needed.

Now, just need to keep fingers crossed that Byrd will keep breathing.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#308 at 09-24-2009 04:04 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Yea, baby!



60 it is.

Well, maybe...

Repubs filed against in district court today. But plan is to swear Kirk in tomorrow morning so might be too late (courts won't touch this once Senate seats him). On the other hand, the State has to certify; this was almost an issuie in MN - might become the issue in MA.

Big gun lawyers staying up late tonight in boston, I'm sure.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#309 at 09-24-2009 04:48 PM by independent [at Jacksonville - still trying to decide if its Florida or Georgia here joined Apr 2008 #posts 1,286]
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"BREAKING: Democrats Hoping To Take Control Of Congress From Republican Minority In 2010"

I didn't know The Onion was on Twitter until last night
'82 iNTp
"Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the form of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question." -Jefferson







Post#310 at 09-24-2009 05:26 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by independent View Post
"BREAKING: Democrats Hoping To Take Control Of Congress From Republican Minority In 2010"

I didn't know The Onion was on Twitter until last night
Not sure whether to laugh or cry, but pretty damn well nails it!
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#311 at 09-24-2009 05:43 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by independent View Post
"BREAKING: Democrats Hoping To Take Control Of Congress From Republican Minority In 2010"

I didn't know The Onion was on Twitter until last night
Here's another reaction, from a young, but smart, whippersnapper -

Ezra Klein: Yep. Though it's really only control of the Senate. And in fact, it's really "Democrats Hoping To Take Control Of Congress From Centrist Democrats In 2010." Republicans would have no power in this debate if Ben Nelson and Evan Bayh and Mary Landrieu stepped out and said we are getting this done, no matter what, and we will vote against any and all attempts to filibuster.
Interesting to note that these three represent about 3% of the nation's population and that assumes everyone in those 3 states support the views of these three dogs.

This too was interesting from Ezra -

You guys like polls, right?

45% approve of Obama’s handling of health care, while 46% disapprove, which is up from his 41%-47% score last month. By comparison, just 21% approve of the Republican Party’s handling of the issue.
The Republican Party's strategy against health-care reform has been something of a kamikaze mission: destroy the bill through a strategy that also destroys the party, at least in the short-term. The hope is that if they win the war, they'll be in better shape come the 2010 midterms. Maybe that'll work. Maybe it won't.

But if it does work, it won't leave them in a better position to govern. What Republicans -- and, when they're out of power, Democrats -- are doing is essentially discrediting the political process. Piece by piece, bill by bill. The argument, essentially, is that politicians are untrustworthy and Congress is corrupt and interest groups are trying to do horrible things to you and problems are not being solved.

All those thing might be true, but they're being said, in this case, by politicians who want to take back Congress and start negotiating with interest groups to solve problems. That's not going to work terribly well, and for obvious reasons. Republicans may think they've found a clever strategy in making it hard for Democrats to govern, but what they're really doing is making it nearly impossible for anyone to govern. American politics is trapped in a cycle of minority obstruction, and though that's good for whomever the minority is at the moment, it's not particularly good for making progress on pressing issues.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#312 at 09-24-2009 10:59 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Any one else catch the Finance Committee's deliberations this afternoon and into the evening?

Senator Max has seemed to have grown a pair in dealing with his 'friends' in the minority - moving through a host of the over 500 proposed amendments and calling out the delaying tactics of his 'friendly' Repugs.

Even Kent Conrad chastised the Repugs on a few occasions.

It may all be for show to cover their lack of support for the public option but we will see.

While the Blue Dogs are more to the Right than the Dems' mainstream, people forget that they are still far to the Left of any Repug - Ben Nelson still votes to the left of Olympia Snowe.

The real test is coming when Rockefeller introduces his public option amendment - likely tomorrow.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#313 at 09-24-2009 11:21 PM by Child of Socrates [at Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort joined Sep 2001 #posts 14,092]
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Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
Any one else catch the Finance Committee's deliberations this afternoon and into the evening?

Senator Max has seemed to have grown a pair in dealing with his 'friends' in the minority - moving through a host of the over 500 proposed amendments and calling out the delaying tactics of his 'friendly' Repugs.

Even Kent Conrad chastised the Repugs on a few occasions.

It may all be for show to cover their lack of support for the public option but we will see.

While the Blue Dogs are more to the Right than the Dems' mainstream, people forget that they are still far to the Left of any Repug - Ben Nelson still votes to the left of Olympia Snowe.

The real test is coming when Rockefeller introduces his public option amendment - likely tomorrow.
Thanks for the update. I missed all of the national action today, because I attended a small grassroots forum on health care. Very informative stuff.







Post#314 at 09-25-2009 01:51 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Yea, baby!

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...k-appointment/

A Massachusetts judge Friday rejected a request from state Republicans to delay the appointment of Paul Kirk as the late Sen. Ted Kennedy's interim replacement.
.
.
.
Kirk will be sworn in by Vice President Joe Biden Friday afternoon.
Pressure on Blue Dogs just went up considerably.

And NetRoots ain't letting up on the Dogs with polling in the Dogs states/districts showing -

http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/wp...SEPT_20091.pdf

...54% of these swing district voters support the public option, and makes the case that these voters emphatically don’t want a “trigger,”,,,
Nationally, public option polls at 60% - higher than Obama's still pretty-good approval ratings and about 3-4x the approval ratings for Repugs -
http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/20...25pollgrx.html

And, oops -
http://www.nationaljournal.com/congr...90925_6347.php
In a bid to wrangle concessions from the Blue Dog Coalition on healthcare reform, House leaders Thursday released CBO estimates for liberals' preferred version of the public option that show $85 billion more in savings than for the version the Blue Dogs prefer.
And more ah-ahs -

In total, a public plan based on Medicare rates would save $110 billion over 10 years.
Last edited by playwrite; 09-25-2009 at 02:06 PM.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#315 at 09-25-2009 08:44 PM by independent [at Jacksonville - still trying to decide if its Florida or Georgia here joined Apr 2008 #posts 1,286]
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Sen. John Ensign (R-Nev.) received a handwritten note Thursday from Joint Committee on Taxation Chief of Staff Tom Barthold confirming the penalty for failing to pay the up to $1,900 fee for not buying health insurance.

Violators could be charged with a misdemeanor and could face up to a year in jail or a $25,000 penalty, Barthold wrote on JCT letterhead. He signed it "Sincerely, Thomas A. Barthold."
http://www.politico.com/livepulse/09..._.html?showall
Public violence backing private profit. No wonder insurance stocks are up this week despite a declining index.
'82 iNTp
"Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the form of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question." -Jefferson







Post#316 at 09-25-2009 10:20 PM by Mr. Reed [at Intersection of History joined Jun 2001 #posts 4,376]
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Thumbs down

Quote Originally Posted by independent View Post
Public violence backing private profit. No wonder insurance stocks are up this week despite a declining index.
The provision to require people to buy health insurance (under the penalty of prison or a fine worth thousands of dollars) is taking things way too far, and is enough to kill the Obama presidency if he goes through with that. That is an extremely bad idea, and I wonder what the hell anyone was smoking when they thought of that, and it certainly wasn't weed. Hurricane Katrina brought into my consciousness the statement that "extreme incompetence is indistinguishable from malice," and I wonder if a law maker put that in to incite rebellion against Obama's "socialist" government. There is nothing good about that provision.

We are still in the midst of a severe economic crisis. At this point, the U3 unemployment rate is 10%, U6 17%. High unemployment rates mean that a lot of people will be unable pay for the insurance, and will get in trouble with the law. And if the economy goes further into the tank, then things will get worse still. The burden of unemployment falls disproportionately on Millennials, who are also poorer than older people. This could easily start a revolt if people are actually prosecuted for not buying health insurance.
"The urge to dream, and the will to enable it is fundamental to being human and have coincided with what it is to be American." -- Neil deGrasse Tyson
intp '82er







Post#317 at 09-25-2009 10:43 PM by wtrg8 [at NoVA joined Dec 2008 #posts 1,262]
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Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Reed View Post
The provision to require people to buy health insurance (under the penalty of prison or a fine worth thousands of dollars) is taking things way too far, and is enough to kill the Obama presidency if he goes through with that. That is an extremely bad idea, and I wonder what the hell anyone was smoking when they thought of that, and it certainly wasn't weed. Hurricane Katrina brought into my consciousness the statement that "extreme incompetence is indistinguishable from malice," and I wonder if a law maker put that in to incite rebellion against Obama's "socialist" government. There is nothing good about that provision.

We are still in the midst of a severe economic crisis. At this point, the U3 unemployment rate is 10%, U6 17%. High unemployment rates mean that a lot of people will be unable pay for the insurance, and will get in trouble with the law. And if the economy goes further into the tank, then things will get worse still. The burden of unemployment falls disproportionately on Millennials, who are also poorer than older people. This could easily start a revolt if people are actually prosecuted for not buying health insurance.
I am one of those 10% and I will go down if the Government takes away my existing Health insurance. Nothing is for free in this word, I had to purchase Health Insurance while making 25K in 1999. So this will be a growing up period for the Millennials. Again I will stress, Give me GEHA or give me Death if Congress decides to botch this. I believe is was the GOP Senator of Neveda who brought up the Constitutionality of forcing US citizens to buy Health Insurance. I see any legislation now going to the Courts.







Post#318 at 09-25-2009 10:49 PM by herbal tee [at joined Dec 2005 #posts 7,116]
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Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Reed View Post
The provision to require people to buy health insurance (under the penalty of prison or a fine worth thousands of dollars) is taking things way too far, and is enough to kill the Obama presidency if he goes through with that. That is an extremely bad idea, and I wonder what the hell anyone was smoking when they thought of that, and it certainly wasn't weed. Hurricane Katrina brought into my consciousness the statement that "extreme incompetence is indistinguishable from malice," and I wonder if a law maker put that in to incite rebellion against Obama's "socialist" government. There is nothing good about that provision.
The very fact that such language is in there makes me suspect that the Baucus bill really was written by the insurance industry.
This Senate Finance Committee, or at least the "gang of six" is apparently composed of the most obtuse insiders within the body. The Republicans are of course going to run with this, I can't help but wonder if anyone on Baucus' staff even thought of the PR fallout.

Even worse, is it possible that they don't even understand enough about life outside of the beltway to see what a problem this will be if it gets anywhere?
We will hopefully see quickly the striking of this provision or else the Democrats really will throw away a civic base that only becomes available once a saeculium!
And all for a few million in campaign dollars that won't win them any election because they will be as toxic as the Republican party is.
Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Reed
We are still in the midst of a severe economic crisis. At this point, the U3 unemployment rate is 10%, U6 17%. High unemployment rates mean that a lot of people will be unable pay for the insurance, and will get in trouble with the law. And if the economy goes further into the tank, then things will get worse still. The burden of unemployment falls disproportionately on Millennials, who are also poorer than older people. This could easily start a revolt if people are actually prosecuted for not buying health insurance.
Don't you get free healthcare if they throw you in jail?
And we're already letting prisoners out because of a lack of cell space.
Last edited by herbal tee; 09-25-2009 at 10:51 PM.







Post#319 at 09-25-2009 11:00 PM by wtrg8 [at NoVA joined Dec 2008 #posts 1,262]
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Quote Originally Posted by herbal tee View Post
The very fact that such language is in there makes me suspect that the Baucus bill really was written by the insurance industry.
This Senate Finance Committee, or at least the "gang of six" is apparently composed of the most obtuse insiders within the body. The Republicans are of course going to run with this, I can't help but wonder if anyone on Baucus' staff even thought of the PR fallout.

Even worse, is it possible that they don't even understand enough about life outside of the beltway to see what a problem this will be if it gets anywhere?
We will hopefully see quickly the striking of this provision or else the Democrats really will throw away a civic base that only becomes available once a saeculium!
And all for a few million in campaign dollars that won't win them any election because they will be as toxic as the Republican party is.
Last time I remember, it was our President and Representatives bartering with the Health Industry in writing this legislation. Both parties are nice and snug with the industry, don't just single out the GOP. Its the Democrats inability to communicate and pass legislation is the most telling part of this story.







Post#320 at 09-25-2009 11:55 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Reed View Post
The provision to require people to buy health insurance (under the penalty of prison or a fine worth thousands of dollars) is taking things way too far, and is enough to kill the Obama presidency if he goes through with that. That is an extremely bad idea, and I wonder what the hell anyone was smoking when they thought of that, and it certainly wasn't weed. Hurricane Katrina brought into my consciousness the statement that "extreme incompetence is indistinguishable from malice," and I wonder if a law maker put that in to incite rebellion against Obama's "socialist" government. There is nothing good about that provision.
What evidence is there that Obama isn't a part of this? What president has there ever been that wasn't the Establishment's man (in fact, who could even get to be a 'serious' candidate without already being so vetted?) Why the big assumption that this latest guy is somehow the C-C-C-Combo-Breaker?

He's continued, unabated, the financial policy (socialized losses, privatized profit for the bankster class) of past holders of the throne; he's continued the policies of the military-industrial complex. Why is anyone surprised that Obama is doing exactly what we predicted he would do?
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#321 at 09-26-2009 12:10 AM by herbal tee [at joined Dec 2005 #posts 7,116]
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Quote Originally Posted by wtrg8 View Post
Last time I remember, it was our President and Representatives bartering with the Health Industry in writing this legislation. Both parties are nice and snug with the industry, don't just single out the GOP. Its the Democrats inability to communicate and pass legislation is the most telling part of this story.
Don't get me wrong.
If this goes down absurdly enough it could make a new third party viable.
That hasn't happened n the US since 1853-54.
This is a 4T event.
As was the Kansas-Nebraska Act.

P.S., Condolances on being a part of the 10% counted in U3.
As your first post posted as I was writing my first, I didn't read it until after mine had posted.
I've been there before.
And I have too many neighbors who share your situation.
Last edited by herbal tee; 09-26-2009 at 12:20 AM.







Post#322 at 09-26-2009 12:29 AM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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You can't look at the individual mandate in isolation of the income-dependent exemptions and subsidies - which have gotten less onerous with recent and proposed amendments -

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/p...,3306099.story

* Ease the financial burden on families with income up to four times the federal poverty level (about $88,000 a year for a family of four). In the Montana senator's original proposal, people making 133 percent to 400 percent of the federal poverty level could have been required to pay 3 percent to 13 percent of their income for health insurance; the new proposal would lower that scale to between 2 percent and 12 percent. Americans making less than 133 percent of the federal poverty level would qualify for Medicaid.
* Drop the maximum family penalty for failing to comply with the insurance mandate from $3,800 to $1,900.
Note - any one at or below 133% (around $29K per year) of the poverty level is exempt from the mandate.
Note - any one between 133% and (now) 400% ($88K per year!) of the poverty level have a max on what they have to pay in health insurance and get subsidized from some to considerable degree depending on income.
Note - anyone making over 88K per year and not paying for health insurance is not only an idiot but putting a burden on everyone else.

This is exactly like the cost of uninsured motorist for those that do have car insurance.

It's been estimated that currently those with health insurance are subsidizing those without at the tune of $1100 per year when the latter go to emergency rooms to get their health care. Many of the uninsured are young people who don't believe they will ever get sick but when they do, or get in accidents or get pregnant, it is the insured people who eventually wind up paying the health care for them.

Its all about getting a larger, if not universal, 'pool' to drive down average costs.

The mandate, in isolation, does appear to be a big problem. But a little research would give most thoughtful people the sense that it is a rather limited problem compared to the benefit of universal coverage providing the "pool" necessary to keep insurance and health care costs down particularly if it is accompanied by a public option.

However, THE MANDATE does makes for a real nice scary sound bite.

Come on, guys, do your homework or continued to be sucked into the scare tactics and hyperbole of the govt takeover, death panels, the industrial complex, etc. etc., quack, quack, quack...
Last edited by playwrite; 09-26-2009 at 12:43 AM.
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Post#323 at 09-26-2009 12:46 AM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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09-26-2009, 12:46 AM #323
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Thanks to pw for copy-pasting the ruling class' talking points right here in convenient form. That saves some googling.

I'll just pick one point to demolish (why take all the fun for myself?)
Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
Note - anyone making over 88K per year and not paying for health insurance is not only an idiot but putting a burden on everyone else.

This is exactly like the cost of uninsured motorist for those that do have car insurance.
Actually, it is absolutely nothing at all like that. You see, a person is expected to get car insurance when they elect to drive a car. Inconvenient though it may be, it is still fully possible to elect not to drive (my brother has been doing it for a couple years now, my sister did for three years, and a couple of people on Andi's side of the family don't, either).
Health "insurance", on the other hand, is something that people are expected [at least, the industry would like it to be so] to have if they elect to be alive.

Comparing the two as if they had anything in common other than the misused moniker of 'insurance' is wholly disingenuous.

- btw, your arbitrary 88K number (why not 87.5? or 88.1?) is also a load of crap. But it's just like the magical 7670th/7671st day of each American's life. The mindless bureaucracy needs a number -- any number -- if it is to function.
Last edited by Justin '77; 09-26-2009 at 12:50 AM.
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Post#324 at 09-26-2009 11:51 AM by wtrg8 [at NoVA joined Dec 2008 #posts 1,262]
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09-26-2009, 11:51 AM #324
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Quote Originally Posted by herbal tee View Post
Don't get me wrong.
If this goes down absurdly enough it could make a new third party viable.
That hasn't happened n the US since 1853-54.
This is a 4T event.
As was the Kansas-Nebraska Act.
I agree with you. I am just as disappointed with the GOP for not having a platform. Both parties are still at their 3T best.







Post#325 at 09-26-2009 02:17 PM by independent [at Jacksonville - still trying to decide if its Florida or Georgia here joined Apr 2008 #posts 1,286]
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09-26-2009, 02:17 PM #325
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Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
You can't look at the individual mandate in isolation of the income-dependent exemptions and subsidies - which have gotten less onerous with recent and proposed amendments -

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/p...,3306099.story

Note - any one at or below 133% (around $29K per year) of the poverty level is exempt from the mandate.
Note - any one between 133% and (now) 400% ($88K per year!) of the poverty level have a max on what they have to pay in health insurance and get subsidized from some to considerable degree depending on income.
2009 Federal Poverty Guidelines:

Persons in family Poverty guideline
1 $10,830
2 14,570
3 18,310
4 22,050
5 25,790

2009 Minimum Wage:


$7.25 x 40 x 52 = $15,080
150% of Poverty

Note - anyone making over 88K per year and not paying for health insurance is not only an idiot but putting a burden on everyone else.

This is exactly like the cost of uninsured motorist for those that do have car insurance.
Why would ANYONE want to buy a product that comes with a 30% administrative overhead? Maybe its "still worth it" because they're extorting your very life and well-being, but its an incredibly inefficient product that would never survive in a competitive market.

Normally, people avoid bad products or purchase a substitute. In this case, the only reasonable substitute is keeping enough money saved up to pay cash for medical crisis. With a mandate and no public option, the terrible product not only survives, it continues to grow in consumption.

It's been estimated that currently those with health insurance are subsidizing those without at the tune of $1100 per year when the latter go to emergency rooms to get their health care. Many of the uninsured are young people who don't believe they will ever get sick but when they do, or get in accidents or get pregnant, it is the insured people who eventually wind up paying the health care for them.
Its also estimates that private insurance adminsitration and overhead consumes $1000+ per person per year across the entire population.

There is also the issue of what Obama campaigned on. Hillary had a mandate, Edwards had a mandate, and Obama stood up to both of them and said it was a bad idea because the vast majority of people who don't have insurance because they can't afford it.

If the voters wanted a mandated approach, why not vote for someone who was offering it in the first place?

Its all about getting a larger, if not universal, 'pool' to drive down average costs.

The mandate, in isolation, does appear to be a big problem. But a little research would give most thoughtful people the sense that it is a rather limited problem compared to the benefit of universal coverage providing the "pool" necessary to keep insurance and health care costs down particularly if it is accompanied by a public option.

However, THE MANDATE does makes for a real nice scary sound bite.

Come on, guys, do your homework or continued to be sucked into the scare tactics and hyperbole of the govt takeover, death panels, the industrial complex, etc. etc., quack, quack, quack...
There is no benefit to expanding the current private insurance system. No benefit outside Wall Street, anyway.

No thanks. Put me in jail, if you will, but I'm not paying another penny to the medical profit machine. Not one more penny to Blue Cross, or Cigna, or Humana. They got their share from me already and the incompetence, corruption, and greed of the system still leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
'82 iNTp
"Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the form of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question." -Jefferson
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