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Thread: It's time for national healthcare - Page 30







Post#726 at 11-09-2009 03:00 PM by btl2283 [at joined Jul 2009 #posts 209]
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Quote Originally Posted by Matt1989 View Post
Here's Kucinich on the matter.
I'd love so much, especially after how everyone in the media laughed at him in the primaries, for someday Kucinich to be the guy that emerges from the smoking rubble of this country in order to save it. It would be comic justice of the highest order.

Then again, looking at his wife, I guess he already won....







Post#727 at 11-09-2009 04:07 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
You sure are, that's libertarians.
Today's Libertarians are Pro-Choice?!

Man, that's the end of the GOP!

Yea, baby!
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#728 at 11-09-2009 04:11 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Erza hits the nail on the head -

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezr...as_much_a.html

Stupak's amendment stated that the public option cannot provide abortion coverage, and that no insurer participating on the exchange can provide abortion coverage to anyone receiving subsidies. But as Rep. Jim Cooper points out in the interview below, the biggest federal subsidy for private insurance coverage is untouched by Stupak's amendment. It's the $250 billion the government spends each year making employer-sponsored health-care insurance tax-free.

That money, however, subsidizes the insurance of 157 million Americans, many of them quite affluent. Imagine if Stupak had attempted to expand his amendment to their coverage. It would, after all, have been the same principle: Federal policy should not subsidize insurance that offers abortion coverage. But it would have failed in an instant. That group is too large, and too affluent, and too politically powerful for Congress to dare to touch their access to reproductive services. But the poorer women who will be using subsidies on the exchange proved a much easier target. In substance, this amendment was as much about class as it was about choice.
Yep, two Americas
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#729 at 11-09-2009 05:19 PM by wtrg8 [at NoVA joined Dec 2008 #posts 1,262]
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Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
Erza hits the nail on the head -

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezr...as_much_a.html



Yep, two Americas
So will you cry wolf when your automatic health insurance tax deduction is taken away and leave you with less money per paycheck?







Post#730 at 11-09-2009 05:30 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by wtrg8 View Post
So will you cry wolf when your automatic health insurance tax deduction is taken away and leave you with less money per paycheck?
Do you honestly think that will happen?
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#731 at 11-09-2009 05:35 PM by wtrg8 [at NoVA joined Dec 2008 #posts 1,262]
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Quote Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon View Post
Do you honestly think that will happen?
Anything and everything is possible.







Post#732 at 11-09-2009 05:44 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by wtrg8 View Post
So will you cry wolf when your automatic health insurance tax deduction is taken away and leave you with less money per paycheck?
I think you are missing the point.

The point is that those getting the deduction are too large and too affluent a group to be screwed with - either by taking away the tax deduction or imposing govt restrictions on their health choices.

That is not the case for the poor. They get screwed and those of us in the higher classes can pontificate on whether the casus bali of their screwing is just and wonderful - we literally have the luxury of standing apart to judge.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#733 at 11-09-2009 06:14 PM by wtrg8 [at NoVA joined Dec 2008 #posts 1,262]
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Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
I think you are missing the point.

The point is that those getting the deduction are too large and too affluent a group to be screwed with - either by taking away the tax deduction or imposing govt restrictions on their health choices.

That is not the case for the poor. They get screwed and those of us in the higher classes can pontificate on whether the casus bali of their screwing is just and wonderful - we literally have the luxury of standing apart to judge.
Well under the GOP plan, lower income folks would have that ability of tax-free health care. But the plan pass denied them that opportunity in the House. I hope cooler heads will prevail in the Senate with the Wyden plan.
Last edited by wtrg8; 11-09-2009 at 06:17 PM.







Post#734 at 11-10-2009 02:37 AM by '58 Flat [at Hardhat From Central Jersey joined Jul 2001 #posts 3,300]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
Great, lets throw women and gay people under the bus! That's the ticket! Sorry, I's rather join with the Libertarians.

But didn't FDR throw the blacks "under the bus" by not lifting a finger to alleviate Jim Crow when even his own wife was nagging him to do so? He even threw the Jews under the bus - see the St. Louis affair.

And didn't the Gilded throw the blacks under the bus after the Civil War by acquiescing in the abandonment of Reconstruction, allowing Jim Crow to be born?

Let rising-adult Homelanders worry about gays in the next 1T.
But maybe if the putative Robin Hoods stopped trying to take from law-abiding citizens and give to criminals, take from men and give to women, take from believers and give to anti-believers, take from citizens and give to "undocumented" immigrants, and take from heterosexuals and give to homosexuals, they might have a lot more success in taking from the rich and giving to everyone else.

Don't blame me - I'm a Baby Buster!







Post#735 at 11-12-2009 05:12 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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A different kind of flacid argument -

http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2009/...by-i-have.html

An Immoderate Proposal

by digby

I have a moral objection to paying for any kind of erectile dysfunction medicine in the new health reform bill and I think men who want to use it should just pay for it out of pocket. After all, I won't ever need such a pill. And anyway, it's no biggie. Just because most of them can get it under their insurance today doesn't mean they shouldn't have it stripped from their coverage in the future because of my moral objections. (I don't think there's even been a Supreme Court ruling making wood a constitutional right. I might be wrong about that.)
.
.
.
I don't want my tax dollars touching even one milimeter of that overly engorged expense.

I realize that many people disagree with my moral objections to men getting erections which God clearly doesn't want them to get, but my principles on this are more important to me than theirs are to them. So too bad. If you want a boner, pay for it yourself.

And I think those noxious advertisements for the drugs should be banned as well, if only for aesthetic reasons. Having to watch my baby boomer fellows wail "Viva Viagra" is offensive to anyone who has any taste in music.
Even as a Boomer male, I'm big enough to agree with this!
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#736 at 11-14-2009 04:31 AM by '58 Flat [at Hardhat From Central Jersey joined Jul 2001 #posts 3,300]
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After seeing Congressman Anthony Weiner on The O'Reilly Factor earlier tonight - and yes, I do watch that, right after I have just taken in Countdown With Keith Olbermann on a typical evening - I can only say this: How can a dude be so cool on health care - yet so lame on national security?
But maybe if the putative Robin Hoods stopped trying to take from law-abiding citizens and give to criminals, take from men and give to women, take from believers and give to anti-believers, take from citizens and give to "undocumented" immigrants, and take from heterosexuals and give to homosexuals, they might have a lot more success in taking from the rich and giving to everyone else.

Don't blame me - I'm a Baby Buster!







Post#737 at 11-14-2009 09:14 PM by JustPassingThrough [at joined Dec 2006 #posts 5,196]
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Once it gets out there that the House bill imposes jail time for anyone who doesn't buy insurance, it's DOA. Welcome to reality, Millenial Obamabots. It would be hilarious to see them thrown in jail by the thousands by the very people they worshiped. I guess it's their "civic" duty right? The Senate will presumably strip that out.

Harry Reid has to get something passed as his last act in the Senate before he loses his seat next year. Say hello to Tom Daschle on your way out.







Post#738 at 11-14-2009 09:44 PM by Brian Rush [at California joined Jul 2001 #posts 12,392]
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Quote Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough View Post
Once it gets out there that the House bill imposes jail time for anyone who doesn't buy insurance, it's DOA.
You might try actually reading the bill before making a statement like that. The only penalty imposed is a tax.

There you go drinkin' that Kool-Aid again.
"And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, slouches toward Bethlehem to be born?"

My blog: https://brianrushwriter.wordpress.com/

The Order Master (volume one of Refuge), a science fantasy. Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GZZWEAS
Smashwords link: https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/382903







Post#739 at 11-14-2009 09:45 PM by haymarket martyr [at joined Sep 2008 #posts 2,547]
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The idea of JAIL TIME for not buying health insurance is a right wing myth. The jail time is for people who do not pay the tax for not having insurance. Refusal to pay taxes always comes with a possible jail sentence.

This is merely another gross distortion of reality by the rightwing in a rabid attempt to kill health care reform by any means necessary.

If you insist otherwise, just quote the portion of the bill that says so.







Post#740 at 11-14-2009 10:26 PM by Seattleblue [at joined Aug 2009 #posts 562]
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Wait... so if I don't get health insurance because I am just not quite poor enough to qualify for an exemption, I'll be taxed? Wow. This is like mandatory car insurance isn't it? Except it will be more like a poll tax by the time it is done- a fee for the privilege of living and breathing air.

I don't see how forcing people to give money to (insurance) corporations is supposed to improve our health care. Why don't they just expand medicare to cover everyone if they really want to address the issue? I don't see how this is going to change a thing except to further enrich the fat cats who make fortunes off this crappy situation already.

They'll never be able to force people to write all those checks every month unless they use the withholding mechanism to get at our paychecks before we do. So we'll end up with federal withholding that goes right to large corporations. That doesn't strike me as very liberal.







Post#741 at 11-14-2009 10:34 PM by haymarket martyr [at joined Sep 2008 #posts 2,547]
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Why don't they just expand medicare to cover everyone if they really want to address the issue?
Excellent idea. Sadly, it would not even garner 50 votes in the Senate. But it still a great idea.







Post#742 at 11-15-2009 04:43 AM by '58 Flat [at Hardhat From Central Jersey joined Jul 2001 #posts 3,300]
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Quote Originally Posted by haymarket martyr View Post
The idea of JAIL TIME for not buying health insurance is a right wing myth. The jail time is for people who do not pay the tax for not having insurance. Refusal to pay taxes always comes with a possible jail sentence.

This is merely another gross distortion of reality by the rightwing in a rabid attempt to kill health care reform by any means necessary.

If you insist otherwise, just quote the portion of the bill that says so.


But what if you simply don't have the money to pay the tax - no "refusal" involved?

True, that's indirect - but if it's you that's behind bars, do you really give a tinker's damn whether you were put there "directly" or "indirectly"?

And the hypocrisy on display here is palpable, in that the left never hesitates to cite cases of indigent, uninsured patients being brought up on "theft of services" or "defrauding an innkeeper" charges (which can be used in many states; even the Wall Street Journal reported such a case in Illinois a while back).
But maybe if the putative Robin Hoods stopped trying to take from law-abiding citizens and give to criminals, take from men and give to women, take from believers and give to anti-believers, take from citizens and give to "undocumented" immigrants, and take from heterosexuals and give to homosexuals, they might have a lot more success in taking from the rich and giving to everyone else.

Don't blame me - I'm a Baby Buster!







Post#743 at 11-15-2009 05:12 AM by Brian Rush [at California joined Jul 2001 #posts 12,392]
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Quote Originally Posted by '58 Flat View Post
But what if you simply don't have the money to pay the tax - no "refusal" involved?
Criminal penalties apply only to deliberate and wilful tax evasion, which must be proven in court under due process. If you don't have the money to pay your taxes, the IRS only assesses monetary penalties and interest.

There is, of course, no criminal penalty in the House bill for failing to get health insurance. There is a tax, and there is no criminal penalty either for failing to pay the tax, only for deliberately refusing to.
"And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, slouches toward Bethlehem to be born?"

My blog: https://brianrushwriter.wordpress.com/

The Order Master (volume one of Refuge), a science fantasy. Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GZZWEAS
Smashwords link: https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/382903







Post#744 at 11-15-2009 05:23 AM by '58 Flat [at Hardhat From Central Jersey joined Jul 2001 #posts 3,300]
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Forcing anyone to buy a product is tyranny - whether it costs you money, or freedom, if you don't.

And auto insurance is a totally faulty analogy, in that millions of people do not own cars - plus there are some states, such as Vermont, where auto insurance for car owners is not compulsory (just think - if you're a child predator, you don't even have to have the car you lure your victims into insured).
But maybe if the putative Robin Hoods stopped trying to take from law-abiding citizens and give to criminals, take from men and give to women, take from believers and give to anti-believers, take from citizens and give to "undocumented" immigrants, and take from heterosexuals and give to homosexuals, they might have a lot more success in taking from the rich and giving to everyone else.

Don't blame me - I'm a Baby Buster!







Post#745 at 11-15-2009 09:55 PM by herbal tee [at joined Dec 2005 #posts 7,116]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
California also has a thing where if you can prove you have enough money to cover your own accidents you don't actually need auto insurance.
South Carolina does too.
But you have to put up a bond in the six figures to get the exemption.
I doubt that anyone in this state trusts the politicans enough to deposit that kind of money with them.







Post#746 at 11-15-2009 10:09 PM by independent [at Jacksonville - still trying to decide if its Florida or Georgia here joined Apr 2008 #posts 1,286]
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Quote Originally Posted by Seattleblue View Post
That doesn't strike me as very liberal.
In America, liberal just means corporatism that primarily serves Hollywood, RIAA, and the medical industry. Conservative means corporatism that primarily serves banking and the military.

Anyway, either way all the important corporations get paid. Who gets elected just determines which sectors receive the largest new payouts. Old payouts are always kept on the books
'82 iNTp
"Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the form of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question." -Jefferson







Post#747 at 11-16-2009 01:58 AM by wtrg8 [at NoVA joined Dec 2008 #posts 1,262]
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Quote Originally Posted by '58 Flat View Post
Forcing anyone to buy a product is tyranny - whether it costs you money, or freedom, if you don't.

And auto insurance is a totally faulty analogy, in that millions of people do not own cars - plus there are some states, such as Vermont, where auto insurance for car owners is not compulsory (just think - if you're a child predator, you don't even have to have the car you lure your victims into insured).
I am hearing there is already a group that will take this legislation, if signed, to Federal Court under Constitutional consideration.







Post#748 at 11-16-2009 11:25 AM by herbal tee [at joined Dec 2005 #posts 7,116]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
Yes, that's the argument against a public health care system also.
But again, your life doesn't depend on having to drive a car.
Also, with all of its problems, California doesn't have the history of corruption that South Carolina has even today. For example, the governator never took off for Argentina while saying that he was going somewhere else.







Post#749 at 11-16-2009 02:13 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
Nor health insurance.
But you only have to pay for car insurance if you choose to drive a car. You'll have to pay for the health-scam just for the privilege of being alive.

Or else, if you elect not to pay, you can go to jail. Admittedly, it's not a direct step -- you get to elect not to pay; then a guy in a suit tells you you have to pay (he calls it a 'tax' or a 'fine', but the nature of it is no different), which you can continue to elect not to do; then he gets people with guns to put you in jail -- but the underlying reality of it is no different.
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

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is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#750 at 11-16-2009 05:07 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
Yes, that's the argument against a public health care system also.
I trust government bureaucrats far more than I trust corporate bureaucrats.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism
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