BAHHHH!!!!!

It will
a- bankrupt the treasury
b- saddle out great grand children with debt
c- kill grandma with death panels
d- take over health care as we know it
e- replace the Hippocratic Oath with the Communist Manifesto
f- make Obama king of the universe... er sorry.... King of the Universe.

Its nice when I can just copy and paste a six month old post.

Originally Posted by Seattleblue

I think the Xer support for the "right" is very misunderstood by a lot of people. It doesn't have at its source the same thing that drives boomer righties, if I understand the boomer mentality correctly as being ideological in a moral paradigm. Xer "conservatism" can't be accurately represented within a boomer paradigm.

The internecine warfare that characterizes the prophet generation only goes so far with the Nomads, as far as I can tell. Lacking any voice of their own prior to gaining political power through age, Xers who engage at all with establishment politics tend to focus on their distaste for what they see as arbitrary authority, whether on the left or the right.

It could be a distaste for the Clintonesque political landscape, for example. Or it could be an anger at corporate interests who exercise power in a corrupt government to dump waste or destroy wilderness. The culture war of the 3T provides plenty of distractions and minutae, and lots of Xers simply don't care about those things that boomers seem to worry over.

Some Xers will take some time to wake up from the red vs blue football game, but when they do I think it will be difficult to label "conservative" Xers as simply neocon drones. They are only "conservative" if you don't look past preconceptions that the boomer culture war has put at the forefront of everyone's mind. Once the last of the detritus of the 3T has been swept away we'll see where everyone really stands.

I am also trying to understand the new Boomer logic of the moderate is the new conservative. I voted against McCain because he was a NeoCon drone and will continue not to support NeoCons (must be the new Liberals). Oh wait they are the Blue Dogs of the GOP.

Originally Posted by The Rani

So you have to turn in proof of health insurance every April 15? I'd seriously like to know ... need to come up with a plan.

Yep and another 25-50 pages to our tax laws, starting in 2010, if enacted. If the Feds can inflate job projections from Recovery.gov (1 in every 10 is not correct) then we are major trouble with Health Care reform.

Originally Posted by The Rani

So they'd only check if you get audited then?

Is the Rani hoarding money on some undisclosed island?

You have to check the health coverage box for your yearly tax returns, just like you hopefully do now. (Kinda like that useless box to contribute 1 dollar for Presidential campaigns.)

The Senate version of the bill is just going public now, and anything final will have to be worked out before a signature puts it into law. So, its going to take a while still before there is any finalized version..

As its written now, the mandate and subsidies won't kick in until 2013, so I think there's plenty of time to find the loopholes after the final version is signed.

Originally Posted by Matt1989

It's a lot of things, but there's no doubt that a lot patriarchal biases are informing these people. One thing that's clear, though, is that politicians have sacrificed women's healthcare in the name of compromise. I think this is something something progressive big government advocates should keep in mind.

But look at what "progressive big government advocates" sacrificed last time - that is to say, during the last Crisis.

'Twas ever thus, and thus ever shall be.

Well that makes sense doesn't it? That's the sort of thing that "crisis" brings to mind in terms of the theory- the fact that things can't be put off any longer and a resolution is forced, one way or another. Social Security and all those sorts built-up interests and solutions for old situations will be swept aside as artifacts of the last saeculum as we make way for the new.

Originally Posted by The Rani

I think the system will crash and burn before then and the whole thing will have to be revised anyway.

That's what we're planning on counting on, anyway.

Originally Posted by Justin '77

That's what we're planning on counting on, anyway.

Hedging on the apocalypse now, are we?

The idea that we all have to lose so a few can further their narrow and selfish ideological goals is sad. I would hope for all of our sakes that more rational heads prevail and we can avoid such tragedy.

Originally Posted by The Rani

Well let's see what happens to the bill in the senate.

Don't worry, it will be another midnight vote in DC. Reid just bought Landrieu.

Originally Posted by The Rani

....the ability of doctors to use alternative treatments ... without the risk of losing their licenses

Why is a license necessary? I do not think psychics or astrologers require a license to practice. Do they?

Originally Posted by Mikebert

Why is a license necessary? I do not think psychics or astrologers require a license to practice. Do they?

Why would one of those frauds need a license? To ensure that they don't rip off their customers? Psychic "reading" and astrology are themselves well-documented nonsense. A ouija board at least connects to the subconscious.

Originally Posted by wtrg8

Don't worry, it will be another midnight vote in DC. Reid just bought Landrieu.

Well now the speculation centers around Blanche Lincoln (b. 1960).

Will Blanche Lincoln go down in history as the 21st-Century counterpart to Edmund Ross?

Will a Baby Buster "bust up" health-care reform?

The answer to these and other burning questions Saturday - same Bat-time, same Bat-channel.

I'd love to see Obama step up and tell them that their plan isn't good enough. That would be real leadership.

Originally Posted by '58 Flat

Well now the speculation centers around Blanche Lincoln (b. 1960).

Will Blanche Lincoln go down in history as the 21st-Century counterpart to Edmund Ross?

Will a Baby Buster "bust up" health-care reform?

The answer to these and other burning questions Saturday - same Bat-time, same Bat-channel.

On a different vote, the House has voted to approve 200 billion dollar payment for Medicare to Doctors.

http://ph.news.yahoo.com/ap/20091120...s-ef375f8.html

The fix is in, but it couldn't happen to the gullible US citizens.

from Seattleblue

I'd love to see Obama step up and tell them that their plan isn't good enough. That would be real leadership.

All that would do is kill the bill.

Is that your idea of leadership?

Senate public option bill passes big hurdle.

Originally Posted by Mikebert

Why is a license necessary? I do not think psychics or astrologers require a license to practice. Do they?

There are a lot of alternative treatments which are not magical in nature. I understand what she's saying, but the problem is this. We have to have standards to practice something as important and potentially life-threatening as medicine. Those standards, as they exist, aren't necessarily appropriate in every case. Doctors who set the standards are motivated partly by a desire to promote good health, but partly by a desire to make money. In some particulars those two desires conflict. Some treatments may be excluded, not because there is sound reason to do so, but because it is hard for corporate medicine to make much money off them.

I don't think the cure is to remove all enforceable standards, though. Medicine messes with the body and can do harm. I'd prefer to have some reasonable assurance that the person treating me has at least gained some necessary knowledge. God knows, I've seen too much harm caused by those who do have knowledge -- I shudder to think what could be done by the well-meaning ignorant.

So far as alternative medical treatments go: Certain people need to be advised to be careful of what they wish for - remember the Laetrile hoax of the 1970s?

Originally Posted by herbal tee

Senate public option bill passes big hurdle.

I wonder what was up with Senator Voinovich (R-OH), who wasn't present. Does anyone from Ohio have the scoop?

Wonkette
from what I can get from the net, he was back in Cleveland at a party honoring his service in political office. It is no secret that Voinovich is not at all happy with his party and the tactics they have embraced. He is a more moderate voice and perhaps he may have voted for the debate to go on anyway.

For what it is worth, the man has a voting record of 98% on roll call votes.

Originally Posted by haymarket martyr

Wonkette
from what I can get from the net, he was back in Cleveland at a party honoring his service in political office. It is no secret that Voinovich is not at all happy with his party and the tactics they have embraced. He is a more moderate voice and perhaps he may have voted for the debate to go on anyway.

For what it is worth, the man has a voting record of 98% on roll call votes.

He was probably wise to avoid the vote. I wish the two moderates from Maine had followed his example.

Yes killing this awful bill would be leadership. What we have is yet another huge giveaway to the elites under the guise of "reform". We're supposed to be happy about this? Pass a bill just to pretend we are doing something? This horrible garbage is worse than doing nothing.

This is just more of the same corruption that we've seen all through the 3T-and this is exactly the sort of thing that will launch us into the 4T as they "monetize" the debt by making our money worthless in futile attempts to pay for this nonsense. It would be one thing if this was actually going to help people, but all they are doing is mortgaging everyone's future earnings in a huge give away to the insurance industry.

People don't seem to realize that the government is already done. We have the veneer of functionality, yet look at the facts. The goverment takes in what, $2.5 trillion per year or so? They've stopped reporting the debt in terms of percentage of the budget and have moved to reporting it in percentages of GDP. They've stopped reporting M3, and have eliminated M2 as they continue to tinker with the numbers to hide the truth.

The fact is that the national debt is probably close to 14 trillion, which is 6 times what they bring in via taxes. The national debt is larger than even the tinkered-up GDP, the entire output of the country. There is no more money left to borrow. Their plan is to inflate the currency and make the debt worthless. The dollar has taken sharp drops in value as they've messed with the money supply already, and you can see the results on the foreign exchange day by day.

The brainiacs in charge think that if they keep the truth from people, because economics is purely a psychological exercise to them, that they can change the public perception of what is going on and thereby ameleiorate the worst of the depression while they continue to do the very things that cause it. They can't. You can no more ignore economic reality than you can ignore the law of gravity. Things will pan out the way they are going to whether or not people have conscious knowledge of things, and propaganda won't fill an empty stomach.

If they do not stop right now, we won't being seeing a repeat of the 1930's depression. We will see hyperinflation and the utter destruction of our social order and perhaps our society itself. Whatever comes out of that chaotic moment when we all see that money is worthless will be nothing like the relatively orderly Great Depression.

This is the sort of thing that I think Strauss and Howe envisioned for crises. Even here, we have people still thinking in a 3T mindset, ruminating about politics and how things can work out in the old paradigm. But the basis of the theory is that crises sweeps it all away. We are in a pre-crises mood, and fear is just now starting to creep into our bones. The stage is being set.

When the true crises hits, it will grab us all by the throat. It catches us by surprise; it's something no one has truly forseen in detail. It will terrify us to the core, releasing all our pent up fears in a national chain reaction. The explosion will rip through the whole country in a flash of panic. That is the moment of truth.

I think that is the great gate that Strauss and Howe wrote about. It makes sense how they say that the America that emerges will be different in fundamental ways, forged by necessity into something new. Yet we will retain our national character. It just doesn't seem likely that this sort of old school 3T dealmaking going on is part of the path to the future. It's a relic of the past.

Originally Posted by Seattleblue

The fact is that the national debt is probably close to 14 trillion, which is 6 times what they bring in via taxes. The national debt is larger than even the tinkered-up GDP, the entire output of the country. There is no more money left to borrow. Their plan is to inflate the currency and make the debt worthless. The dollar has taken sharp drops in value as they've messed with the money supply already, and you can see the results on the foreign exchange day by day.

How does that help the elites? The under-taxed elites have managed to build up huge fortunes. If we actually did inflate the dollar, they would be far worse off rather quickly and the mostly debtor public would be much better off!

Home mortgages would become insignificant relative to the value of the home.. Student loans would be easier to pay off.. and so on...

It would basically transfer money from the wealthy to everyone else!

Alternately, they could begin taxing the wealthy individuals to pay off the debt... Borrow money now to get the economy going, then pull it back in later with high top marginal tax rates to avoid inflation...

Either way, the problem is not a lack of money but rather that the money is in the hands of a very small number of people whose interests don't necessarily align with those of the nation as a whole.