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Thread: It's time for national healthcare - Page 32







Post#776 at 11-18-2009 07:24 PM by haymarket martyr [at joined Sep 2008 #posts 2,547]
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BAHHHH!!!!!

It will
a- bankrupt the treasury
b- saddle out great grand children with debt
c- kill grandma with death panels
d- take over health care as we know it
e- replace the Hippocratic Oath with the Communist Manifesto
f- make Obama king of the universe... er sorry.... King of the Universe.

Its nice when I can just copy and paste a six month old post.
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.







Post#777 at 11-18-2009 08:07 PM by wtrg8 [at NoVA joined Dec 2008 #posts 1,262]
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Quote Originally Posted by Seattleblue View Post
I think the Xer support for the "right" is very misunderstood by a lot of people. It doesn't have at its source the same thing that drives boomer righties, if I understand the boomer mentality correctly as being ideological in a moral paradigm. Xer "conservatism" can't be accurately represented within a boomer paradigm.

The internecine warfare that characterizes the prophet generation only goes so far with the Nomads, as far as I can tell. Lacking any voice of their own prior to gaining political power through age, Xers who engage at all with establishment politics tend to focus on their distaste for what they see as arbitrary authority, whether on the left or the right.

It could be a distaste for the Clintonesque political landscape, for example. Or it could be an anger at corporate interests who exercise power in a corrupt government to dump waste or destroy wilderness. The culture war of the 3T provides plenty of distractions and minutae, and lots of Xers simply don't care about those things that boomers seem to worry over.

Some Xers will take some time to wake up from the red vs blue football game, but when they do I think it will be difficult to label "conservative" Xers as simply neocon drones. They are only "conservative" if you don't look past preconceptions that the boomer culture war has put at the forefront of everyone's mind. Once the last of the detritus of the 3T has been swept away we'll see where everyone really stands.
I am also trying to understand the new Boomer logic of the moderate is the new conservative. I voted against McCain because he was a NeoCon drone and will continue not to support NeoCons (must be the new Liberals). Oh wait they are the Blue Dogs of the GOP.







Post#778 at 11-18-2009 08:14 PM by wtrg8 [at NoVA joined Dec 2008 #posts 1,262]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
So you have to turn in proof of health insurance every April 15? I'd seriously like to know ... need to come up with a plan.
Yep and another 25-50 pages to our tax laws, starting in 2010, if enacted. If the Feds can inflate job projections from Recovery.gov (1 in every 10 is not correct) then we are major trouble with Health Care reform.
Last edited by wtrg8; 11-18-2009 at 08:17 PM.







Post#779 at 11-18-2009 09:18 PM by wtrg8 [at NoVA joined Dec 2008 #posts 1,262]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
So they'd only check if you get audited then?
Is the Rani hoarding money on some undisclosed island?

You have to check the health coverage box for your yearly tax returns, just like you hopefully do now. (Kinda like that useless box to contribute 1 dollar for Presidential campaigns.)







Post#780 at 11-19-2009 03:35 AM by independent [at Jacksonville - still trying to decide if its Florida or Georgia here joined Apr 2008 #posts 1,286]
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The Senate version of the bill is just going public now, and anything final will have to be worked out before a signature puts it into law. So, its going to take a while still before there is any finalized version..

As its written now, the mandate and subsidies won't kick in until 2013, so I think there's plenty of time to find the loopholes after the final version is signed.
'82 iNTp
"Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the form of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question." -Jefferson







Post#781 at 11-19-2009 07:46 AM by '58 Flat [at Hardhat From Central Jersey joined Jul 2001 #posts 3,300]
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Quote Originally Posted by Matt1989 View Post
It's a lot of things, but there's no doubt that a lot patriarchal biases are informing these people. One thing that's clear, though, is that politicians have sacrificed women's healthcare in the name of compromise. I think this is something something progressive big government advocates should keep in mind.

But look at what "progressive big government advocates" sacrificed last time - that is to say, during the last Crisis.

'Twas ever thus, and thus ever shall be.
But maybe if the putative Robin Hoods stopped trying to take from law-abiding citizens and give to criminals, take from men and give to women, take from believers and give to anti-believers, take from citizens and give to "undocumented" immigrants, and take from heterosexuals and give to homosexuals, they might have a lot more success in taking from the rich and giving to everyone else.

Don't blame me - I'm a Baby Buster!







Post#782 at 11-19-2009 07:49 PM by Seattleblue [at joined Aug 2009 #posts 562]
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Well that makes sense doesn't it? That's the sort of thing that "crisis" brings to mind in terms of the theory- the fact that things can't be put off any longer and a resolution is forced, one way or another. Social Security and all those sorts built-up interests and solutions for old situations will be swept aside as artifacts of the last saeculum as we make way for the new.







Post#783 at 11-19-2009 11:38 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
I think the system will crash and burn before then and the whole thing will have to be revised anyway.
That's what we're planning on counting on, anyway.
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#784 at 11-20-2009 11:44 AM by Child of Socrates [at Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort joined Sep 2001 #posts 14,092]
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Quote Originally Posted by Justin '77 View Post
That's what we're planning on counting on, anyway.
Hedging on the apocalypse now, are we?







Post#785 at 11-20-2009 11:52 AM by haymarket martyr [at joined Sep 2008 #posts 2,547]
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The idea that we all have to lose so a few can further their narrow and selfish ideological goals is sad. I would hope for all of our sakes that more rational heads prevail and we can avoid such tragedy.
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.







Post#786 at 11-20-2009 12:09 PM by wtrg8 [at NoVA joined Dec 2008 #posts 1,262]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
Well let's see what happens to the bill in the senate.
Don't worry, it will be another midnight vote in DC. Reid just bought Landrieu.







Post#787 at 11-20-2009 03:44 PM by Mikebert [at Kalamazoo MI joined Jul 2001 #posts 4,502]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
....the ability of doctors to use alternative treatments ... without the risk of losing their licenses
Why is a license necessary? I do not think psychics or astrologers require a license to practice. Do they?







Post#788 at 11-20-2009 06:34 PM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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Quote Originally Posted by Mikebert View Post
Why is a license necessary? I do not think psychics or astrologers require a license to practice. Do they?
Why would one of those frauds need a license? To ensure that they don't rip off their customers? Psychic "reading" and astrology are themselves well-documented nonsense. A ouija board at least connects to the subconscious.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#789 at 11-21-2009 03:37 AM by '58 Flat [at Hardhat From Central Jersey joined Jul 2001 #posts 3,300]
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Quote Originally Posted by wtrg8 View Post
Don't worry, it will be another midnight vote in DC. Reid just bought Landrieu.

Well now the speculation centers around Blanche Lincoln (b. 1960).

Will Blanche Lincoln go down in history as the 21st-Century counterpart to Edmund Ross?

Will a Baby Buster "bust up" health-care reform?

The answer to these and other burning questions Saturday - same Bat-time, same Bat-channel.
But maybe if the putative Robin Hoods stopped trying to take from law-abiding citizens and give to criminals, take from men and give to women, take from believers and give to anti-believers, take from citizens and give to "undocumented" immigrants, and take from heterosexuals and give to homosexuals, they might have a lot more success in taking from the rich and giving to everyone else.

Don't blame me - I'm a Baby Buster!







Post#790 at 11-21-2009 07:01 PM by Seattleblue [at joined Aug 2009 #posts 562]
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I'd love to see Obama step up and tell them that their plan isn't good enough. That would be real leadership.







Post#791 at 11-21-2009 07:18 PM by wtrg8 [at NoVA joined Dec 2008 #posts 1,262]
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Quote Originally Posted by '58 Flat View Post
Well now the speculation centers around Blanche Lincoln (b. 1960).

Will Blanche Lincoln go down in history as the 21st-Century counterpart to Edmund Ross?

Will a Baby Buster "bust up" health-care reform?

The answer to these and other burning questions Saturday - same Bat-time, same Bat-channel.
On a different vote, the House has voted to approve 200 billion dollar payment for Medicare to Doctors.

http://ph.news.yahoo.com/ap/20091120...s-ef375f8.html

The fix is in, but it couldn't happen to the gullible US citizens.







Post#792 at 11-21-2009 08:11 PM by haymarket martyr [at joined Sep 2008 #posts 2,547]
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from Seattleblue

I'd love to see Obama step up and tell them that their plan isn't good enough. That would be real leadership.
All that would do is kill the bill.

Is that your idea of leadership?
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.







Post#793 at 11-21-2009 11:45 PM by herbal tee [at joined Dec 2005 #posts 7,116]
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Right Arrow 60-39

Senate public option bill passes big hurdle.







Post#794 at 11-22-2009 01:01 AM by Brian Rush [at California joined Jul 2001 #posts 12,392]
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Quote Originally Posted by Mikebert View Post
Why is a license necessary? I do not think psychics or astrologers require a license to practice. Do they?
There are a lot of alternative treatments which are not magical in nature. I understand what she's saying, but the problem is this. We have to have standards to practice something as important and potentially life-threatening as medicine. Those standards, as they exist, aren't necessarily appropriate in every case. Doctors who set the standards are motivated partly by a desire to promote good health, but partly by a desire to make money. In some particulars those two desires conflict. Some treatments may be excluded, not because there is sound reason to do so, but because it is hard for corporate medicine to make much money off them.

I don't think the cure is to remove all enforceable standards, though. Medicine messes with the body and can do harm. I'd prefer to have some reasonable assurance that the person treating me has at least gained some necessary knowledge. God knows, I've seen too much harm caused by those who do have knowledge -- I shudder to think what could be done by the well-meaning ignorant.
"And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, slouches toward Bethlehem to be born?"

My blog: https://brianrushwriter.wordpress.com/

The Order Master (volume one of Refuge), a science fantasy. Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GZZWEAS
Smashwords link: https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/382903







Post#795 at 11-22-2009 04:48 AM by '58 Flat [at Hardhat From Central Jersey joined Jul 2001 #posts 3,300]
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So far as alternative medical treatments go: Certain people need to be advised to be careful of what they wish for - remember the Laetrile hoax of the 1970s?
But maybe if the putative Robin Hoods stopped trying to take from law-abiding citizens and give to criminals, take from men and give to women, take from believers and give to anti-believers, take from citizens and give to "undocumented" immigrants, and take from heterosexuals and give to homosexuals, they might have a lot more success in taking from the rich and giving to everyone else.

Don't blame me - I'm a Baby Buster!







Post#796 at 11-22-2009 11:50 AM by The Wonkette [at Arlington, VA 1956 joined Jul 2002 #posts 9,209]
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Voinovich, not Present.

Quote Originally Posted by herbal tee View Post
Senate public option bill passes big hurdle.
I wonder what was up with Senator Voinovich (R-OH), who wasn't present. Does anyone from Ohio have the scoop?
I want people to know that peace is possible even in this stupid day and age. Prem Rawat, June 8, 2008







Post#797 at 11-22-2009 12:21 PM by haymarket martyr [at joined Sep 2008 #posts 2,547]
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Wonkette
from what I can get from the net, he was back in Cleveland at a party honoring his service in political office. It is no secret that Voinovich is not at all happy with his party and the tactics they have embraced. He is a more moderate voice and perhaps he may have voted for the debate to go on anyway.

For what it is worth, the man has a voting record of 98% on roll call votes.
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.







Post#798 at 11-22-2009 04:00 PM by The Wonkette [at Arlington, VA 1956 joined Jul 2002 #posts 9,209]
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Quote Originally Posted by haymarket martyr View Post
Wonkette
from what I can get from the net, he was back in Cleveland at a party honoring his service in political office. It is no secret that Voinovich is not at all happy with his party and the tactics they have embraced. He is a more moderate voice and perhaps he may have voted for the debate to go on anyway.

For what it is worth, the man has a voting record of 98% on roll call votes.
He was probably wise to avoid the vote. I wish the two moderates from Maine had followed his example.
I want people to know that peace is possible even in this stupid day and age. Prem Rawat, June 8, 2008







Post#799 at 11-22-2009 09:33 PM by Seattleblue [at joined Aug 2009 #posts 562]
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Yes killing this awful bill would be leadership. What we have is yet another huge giveaway to the elites under the guise of "reform". We're supposed to be happy about this? Pass a bill just to pretend we are doing something? This horrible garbage is worse than doing nothing.

This is just more of the same corruption that we've seen all through the 3T-and this is exactly the sort of thing that will launch us into the 4T as they "monetize" the debt by making our money worthless in futile attempts to pay for this nonsense. It would be one thing if this was actually going to help people, but all they are doing is mortgaging everyone's future earnings in a huge give away to the insurance industry.

People don't seem to realize that the government is already done. We have the veneer of functionality, yet look at the facts. The goverment takes in what, $2.5 trillion per year or so? They've stopped reporting the debt in terms of percentage of the budget and have moved to reporting it in percentages of GDP. They've stopped reporting M3, and have eliminated M2 as they continue to tinker with the numbers to hide the truth.

The fact is that the national debt is probably close to 14 trillion, which is 6 times what they bring in via taxes. The national debt is larger than even the tinkered-up GDP, the entire output of the country. There is no more money left to borrow. Their plan is to inflate the currency and make the debt worthless. The dollar has taken sharp drops in value as they've messed with the money supply already, and you can see the results on the foreign exchange day by day.

The brainiacs in charge think that if they keep the truth from people, because economics is purely a psychological exercise to them, that they can change the public perception of what is going on and thereby ameleiorate the worst of the depression while they continue to do the very things that cause it. They can't. You can no more ignore economic reality than you can ignore the law of gravity. Things will pan out the way they are going to whether or not people have conscious knowledge of things, and propaganda won't fill an empty stomach.

If they do not stop right now, we won't being seeing a repeat of the 1930's depression. We will see hyperinflation and the utter destruction of our social order and perhaps our society itself. Whatever comes out of that chaotic moment when we all see that money is worthless will be nothing like the relatively orderly Great Depression.

This is the sort of thing that I think Strauss and Howe envisioned for crises. Even here, we have people still thinking in a 3T mindset, ruminating about politics and how things can work out in the old paradigm. But the basis of the theory is that crises sweeps it all away. We are in a pre-crises mood, and fear is just now starting to creep into our bones. The stage is being set.

When the true crises hits, it will grab us all by the throat. It catches us by surprise; it's something no one has truly forseen in detail. It will terrify us to the core, releasing all our pent up fears in a national chain reaction. The explosion will rip through the whole country in a flash of panic. That is the moment of truth.

I think that is the great gate that Strauss and Howe wrote about. It makes sense how they say that the America that emerges will be different in fundamental ways, forged by necessity into something new. Yet we will retain our national character. It just doesn't seem likely that this sort of old school 3T dealmaking going on is part of the path to the future. It's a relic of the past.







Post#800 at 11-22-2009 09:51 PM by scotths [at joined May 2009 #posts 321]
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Quote Originally Posted by Seattleblue View Post
The fact is that the national debt is probably close to 14 trillion, which is 6 times what they bring in via taxes. The national debt is larger than even the tinkered-up GDP, the entire output of the country. There is no more money left to borrow. Their plan is to inflate the currency and make the debt worthless. The dollar has taken sharp drops in value as they've messed with the money supply already, and you can see the results on the foreign exchange day by day.
How does that help the elites? The under-taxed elites have managed to build up huge fortunes. If we actually did inflate the dollar, they would be far worse off rather quickly and the mostly debtor public would be much better off!

Home mortgages would become insignificant relative to the value of the home.. Student loans would be easier to pay off.. and so on...

It would basically transfer money from the wealthy to everyone else!

Alternately, they could begin taxing the wealthy individuals to pay off the debt... Borrow money now to get the economy going, then pull it back in later with high top marginal tax rates to avoid inflation...

Either way, the problem is not a lack of money but rather that the money is in the hands of a very small number of people whose interests don't necessarily align with those of the nation as a whole.
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