Generational Dynamics
Fourth Turning Forum Archive


Popular links:
Generational Dynamics Web Site
Generational Dynamics Forum
Fourth Turning Archive home page
New Fourth Turning Forum

Thread: It's time for national healthcare - Page 41







Post#1001 at 12-17-2009 01:58 PM by haymarket martyr [at joined Sep 2008 #posts 2,547]
---
12-17-2009, 01:58 PM #1001
Join Date
Sep 2008
Posts
2,547

In the early part of the 20th century, one of the burning issues of the day was what to do about utilities who delivered services such as power and heat to homes. They were picking and choosing customers and who to serve and often gouging customers and delivering shoddy service. This was one of the really controversial issues of the day. In the end, it was resolved by allowing utilities to be run by private for profit companies under strict government regulation with small margins allowed for profit. A societal decision was made that the delivery of utility services was simply too basic to life to be allowed to the whims of the free market... if there really is such a thing. That is the model we still have today.

When you go back and look at the history of debate surrounding this issue, it resembles the current debate about health care and health insurance. I suspect that regardless of what happens in the current cycle, sooner or later the cost of health insurance will simply be so high that most companies and persons cannot afford it. The industry will pretty much collapse under its own bloated weight and the realities it creates for itself. Of course, by that time the insurance corporations will have all made incredible fortunes and have had ample opportunity to diversify their businesses into other areas. The people in charge will have retired and the politicians they now have bought and owned will have died or moved on to the old folks home.

That will be a huge crisis for the nation and its people.

What will emerge will be highly dependent on many factors that exist at that time but I expect the model of government regulated utilities will be held up as a model to follow.
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.







Post#1002 at 12-17-2009 02:01 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
---
12-17-2009, 02:01 PM #1002
Join Date
Jul 2005
Location
NYC
Posts
10,443

Crap, this doesn't look good -

http://www.minnpost.com/politicalage...ss_state_lines

Legislators prepare for possible federal changes that would allow health care plans across state lines

With provisions for selling health insurance across state lines included in both health care reform bills being considered by Congress, Minnesota officials have begun looking at the issue so they'll prepared for any changes that may affect the state.

Wednesday's joint meeting of the House Commerce and Labor Committees heard testimony that generally opposed any attempts to let health plans not licensed here come into the state.

The committees took no action but just tried to learn more.

One concern: Because Minnesota has some of the broader mandates and better health care oversight provisions than many other states, some worry that opening up the state borders to outside health plans would set off a race to the bottom, as local insurance companies respond to lower cost plans that might not provide coverage as good as we have now.

But supporters say that selling nationwide health plans would foster competition and save money.
Real possiblity that Blue States will be able to control this, but people in the Red Staes are going to get crapped on by the insurers (and, unfortunately, a lot of them being teabaggers will be grateful for being crapped on becasue its "the real American way.")
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

Its not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. Its much more akin to printing money. - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#1003 at 12-17-2009 02:48 PM by haymarket martyr [at joined Sep 2008 #posts 2,547]
---
12-17-2009, 02:48 PM #1003
Join Date
Sep 2008
Posts
2,547

PW - it only seems to get worse by the hour. Any plan which would do what the people in Minnesota fear should be scrapped. And there is no sure thing that the laws of Minnesota - or any other state - can prevail over the national laws. I have little doubt that the insurance companies will set up shop in the single state with the weakest or even non-existent laws covering their industry. The laws of the various states protecting the consumers of insurance in the states will then become worthless.

If you really want to get depressed, read this if you can get through it. I was so disheartened I had to stop halfway through.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...as_big_sellout

Like others here, I donated money for Obama and worked very hard to get him elected. All the free time I had in the ten days before the election were devoted to that effort. I was happy to do it and the news on election night ranks right up there with other great days of my life. So all this is very sad.
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.







Post#1004 at 12-17-2009 02:51 PM by Brian Rush [at California joined Jul 2001 #posts 12,392]
---
12-17-2009, 02:51 PM #1004
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
California
Posts
12,392

One thing this whole travesty is convincing me of is that reform is needed for Senatorial procedures. This ability of a 40% minority to veto any legislation coming out of Congress has simply got to go. We could have a perfectly fine health-care reform bill emerge from the Senate if it followed procedures similar to those used in the House. The votes are there to pass a final bill that includes a public option and does not include any of these things we don't like -- but not 60% of the Senate.

This inserts an overly conservative bias and subverts the people's will. It. Must. Go.
"And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, slouches toward Bethlehem to be born?"

My blog: https://brianrushwriter.wordpress.com/

The Order Master (volume one of Refuge), a science fantasy. Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GZZWEAS
Smashwords link: https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/382903







Post#1005 at 12-17-2009 04:44 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
---
12-17-2009, 04:44 PM #1005
Join Date
Jul 2005
Location
NYC
Posts
10,443

Quote Originally Posted by haymarket martyr View Post
PW - it only seems to get worse by the hour. Any plan which would do what the people in Minnesota fear should be scrapped. And there is no sure thing that the laws of Minnesota - or any other state - can prevail over the national laws. I have little doubt that the insurance companies will set up shop in the single state with the weakest or even non-existent laws covering their industry. The laws of the various states protecting the consumers of insurance in the states will then become worthless.
What I'm trying to get clear is whether this is really up to each individual state, i.e. do they have the choice to either bend their state citizens over so the insurers can have their way with them or do they say "hell no" and effectively bar the riff-raff out of their borders. I realize that this leaves it to a huge lobbying effort in each state, but state insurance regulators are well-established and pretty damn strong - the insurers F with them and they risk being gutted. This does mean that some states, primarily Red States, will gleefully bend over their citizens and perhaps take a few turns themselves. However, much like the PO "State Op Out" that would certainly bring to light and pressure on the whole Red State fat cat system. I might be able to still go along with the bill if it ends there. However, if this would undermined the states that do look out for their citizens, then give me a torch and pitchfork and lets burn this mudder to the ground!

Quote Originally Posted by haymarket martyr View Post
If you really want to get depressed, read this if you can get through it. I was so disheartened I had to stop halfway through.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...as_big_sellout

Like others here, I donated money for Obama and worked very hard to get him elected. All the free time I had in the ten days before the election were devoted to that effort. I was happy to do it and the news on election night ranks right up there with other great days of my life. So all this is very sad.
I couldn't get through it either and not ready to go there yet. I am absolutely in agreement with Brian on this - we need to put the blame exactly where it needs to be - the dysfunctional US Senate. And I'm not even pointing at Harry Reid - I think he is hostage to the situation. At worst, I can fault them for believing that there remains a modicum of interest in what's best for the country in the shirtheads that pass as conservatives today (whether Repug, Indep, or 'Dem').

A lot of Dens are concerned about letting the filibuster process die because they are concern about what will happen should the conservatives get a hold of the government again. I now believe it would be much better to let the chips fall where they may. Previous to Obama we got a pretty good look over the previous 8 years; I think one 2-year stretch of the shirtheads with no filibuster protection will be a potent reminder and would get us back on a progressive track pronto. Maybe lossing the filibuster and the Senate in 2010 would be best, allowing us to all to take a look at what that would mean (e.g. gutting SS, Medicare, public education, tax cuts for the top 1%ers, immigrant bashing, and a constant chant of war! war! war!) with the House majority and Presidency there to keep it from reality.

I'm willing to risk it at this point.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

Its not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. Its much more akin to printing money. - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#1006 at 12-17-2009 05:49 PM by Brian Rush [at California joined Jul 2001 #posts 12,392]
---
12-17-2009, 05:49 PM #1006
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
California
Posts
12,392

Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
A lot of Dens are concerned about letting the filibuster process die because they are concern about what will happen should the conservatives get a hold of the government again.
It's not right to sacrifice a principle to the fear that it may someday benefit the other side. The filibuster is inherently conservative. That means it works against reaction as much as it does against progress, but still, progressives should think in terms of offense, not defense. Defense of the status quo is the job of conservatives, not progressives.
"And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, slouches toward Bethlehem to be born?"

My blog: https://brianrushwriter.wordpress.com/

The Order Master (volume one of Refuge), a science fantasy. Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GZZWEAS
Smashwords link: https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/382903







Post#1007 at 12-17-2009 05:55 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
---
12-17-2009, 05:55 PM #1007
Join Date
Jul 2005
Location
NYC
Posts
10,443

Back in the saddle

Back in the saddle, and not unexpectantly, Ezra got me there.

Starting with what apparently is Dean's final demand -

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...d=opinionsbox1

Improvements can still be made in the Senate, and I hope that Senate Democrats will work on this bill as it moves to conference. If lawmakers are interested in ensuring that government affordability credits are spent on health-care benefits rather than insurers' salaries, they need to require state-based exchanges, which act as prudent purchasers and select only the most efficient insurers. Sen. John Kerry (D-Mass.) offered this amendment during the Finance Committee markup, and Democrats should include it in the final legislation. A stripped-down version of the current bill that included these provisions would be worth passing.
Ezra's response -
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezr...ge-taking.html

the whole thing is worth a read but this is key -
What's so strange about Dean's objection is that the exchanges in the Senate bill (pdf) do act as "prudent purchasers," that is to say, they set limits on the plans that can enter in the exchange to ensure that people are getting good choices. The relevant section begins on page 131 of the Senate bill. "The Secretary shall, by regulation, establish criteria for the certification of health plans as qualified health plans." A couple of pages of relevant criteria follow, including marketing requirements (plans can be disqualified for focusing their marketing in outlets that would bring them uncommonly healthy enrollees), broad provider networks, coverage of options used by low-income folks (community health centers, say), quality measures, quality improvement strategies, consumer ratings, standardized benefit packages, etc.

And then, a couple of pages later, the language gets stronger. On page 143, the exchanges are given power to certify insurance plans based on whether "the Exchange determines that making available such health plan through such Exchange is in the interests of qualified individuals and qualified employers in the State." On 144, premiums, and premium increases, enter explicitly into the discussion. Any insurance plan that wants to increase premiums has to submit a written justification for their decision. It will have to post that information on its Web site. And if the exchange is not convinced, it can decertify the plan.

Don't believe me? In his op-ed, Dean names John Kerry as the senator who has been working hardest on this question. This morning, I spoke to Kerry's staff, who got me a statement from Kerry himself. "The prudent purchasing provisions in the Senate health bill will lower costs and increase affordable options for consumers," Kerry says. "Its strong language that will allow the exchange to deliver competitive prices and offer high quality care, and Im thrilled to see national reform honor the best innovations already succeeding in Massachusetts.
Amazing how this went from Haymarket highilighting a late-night reporting of concern by the Wash. Post and LA Times (with a nod to the mostly CA Dem delegation that originally set off the alarm bells) to being Dean's line-in-the-sand this morining to Ezra's getting to the heart of it and getting Kerry to give the all clear this afternoon.

Hey, Haymarket, just who is it that you know???!!!

You might have gotten away with a glib answer to that quesiton except for your post about how this is going to go the way of utility regulation!

Let's highlight what Ezra found on p. 144 -

On 144, premiums, and premium increases, enter explicitly into the discussion. Any insurance plan that wants to increase premiums has to submit a written justification for their decision. It will have to post that information on its Web site. And if the exchange is not convinced, it can decertify the plan.

The jig is up, Hay, my brother!
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

Its not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. Its much more akin to printing money. - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#1008 at 12-17-2009 05:59 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
---
12-17-2009, 05:59 PM #1008
Join Date
Jul 2005
Location
NYC
Posts
10,443

Quote Originally Posted by Brian Rush View Post
It's not right to sacrifice a principle to the fear that it may someday benefit the other side. The filibuster is inherently conservative. That means it works against reaction as much as it does against progress, but still, progressives should think in terms of offense, not defense. Defense of the status quo is the job of conservatives, not progressives.
Yes, I've been giving other Progressives the old "buck up."

Thanks for returning the favor.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

Its not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. Its much more akin to printing money. - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#1009 at 12-17-2009 06:20 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
---
12-17-2009, 06:20 PM #1009
Join Date
Jul 2005
Location
NYC
Posts
10,443

Big Dawg weights in

From the Big Dawg -

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp...xd7DgYpU13wUCQ

Bill Clinton urges Democrats to pass health reform

WASHINGTON Former US president Bill Clinton on Thursday told fellow Democrats threatening to sink President Barack Obama's health care bill that they risk a "colossal blunder."

"Allowing this effort to fall short now would be a colossal blunder -- both politically for our party and, far more important, for the physical, fiscal and economic health of our country," he said in a statement
.
.
.
"Does this bill read exactly how I would write it? No. Does it contain everything everyone wants? Of course not," Clinton said in a statement. "But America can't afford to let the perfect be the enemy of the good."

"Take it from someone who knows: these chances don't come around every day," he said.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

Its not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. Its much more akin to printing money. - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#1010 at 12-17-2009 06:48 PM by Child of Socrates [at Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort joined Sep 2001 #posts 14,092]
---
12-17-2009, 06:48 PM #1010
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort
Posts
14,092

Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
Amazing how this went from Haymarket highilighting a late-night reporting of concern by the Wash. Post and LA Times (with a nod to the mostly CA Dem delegation that originally set off the alarm bells) to being Dean's line-in-the-sand this morining to Ezra's getting to the heart of it and getting Kerry to give the all clear this afternoon.
Yeah, but is Kerry going to set Dean straight on this himself?

If we're going to close ranks, we all need to be on the same page.

(ugh, the cliches!)







Post#1011 at 12-17-2009 07:15 PM by haymarket martyr [at joined Sep 2008 #posts 2,547]
---
12-17-2009, 07:15 PM #1011
Join Date
Sep 2008
Posts
2,547

I truly do appreciate the other progressives here aid and comfort. All of you. I do appreciate the information about Senator Kerry and his efforts. I am shifting hourly on this and feel like I am being pulled in different directions.

I want to believe. I really truly do.

I saw David Axelrod on Chris Matthews an hour ago and he was reassuring in some ways but it was lots of vague stuff.

If some authoritative source would simply be able to state with accuracy and truth that the conservative libertarian dream of allowing insurance companies to sell across state lines so they can get around strong state consumer protection laws is not happening under this proposed law, it would go along way to settling my political nerves.
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.







Post#1012 at 12-17-2009 07:30 PM by haymarket martyr [at joined Sep 2008 #posts 2,547]
---
12-17-2009, 07:30 PM #1012
Join Date
Sep 2008
Posts
2,547

This is from the President of the SEIU

Letter from President Andy Stern to SEIU members: Where do we go from here?
BY ANDY STERN
Dear Brothers and Sisters,

A little over a year ago, you stood up and showed a nation that Yes, We Can. You knocked on doors, picked up phones, wrote your friends and family and neighbors and helped ring in a resounding victory. It was a win not just for a candidate, but for a people. For a country. For a promise of a better future for all of our kids and grandkids and generations to come.

And after that bright and shining day in November, you hung in there. At a time when people usually pack up, go home, and play the spectator sport of complaining about the system, you got up each and every day and did things both heroic and small to make sure that this time, we didn't leave change to chance.

For nearly a century, Presidents and congressional leaders have debated how to fix our health insurance system. It has become a given that we can and must do better as a nation. But as surely as each generation has tried, each time, politics, special interests and scare tactics have blocked progress and made us come to believe we can't: We can't change, we can't make our country better - plain and simple, we just can't.

I am writing to you today because I believe this is the moment when we must stand as one and say enough.

We talked to more than 200,000 of our sisters and brothers all around the country as part of a Town Hall-style telephone call last week to talk about your questions, your concerns and your frustrations about what is happening in Washington with health insurance reform.

Cynthia from Maryland was worried about her health benefits being taxed.

Maria in California didn't understand why the public option might be off the table.

Gerry from West Virginia wanted to know if he would be able to afford his health coverage.

One thing was clear: When SEIU stands up for affordable care every American can count on, we stand 2.2 million strong and ready to fight for the change our families, friends and neighbors; our patients and our nation need.

But at the very moment that we saw real and meaningful changes within our grasp, one Senator came forward to say "no we can't." He can't let the Senate have an up-or-down vote on health insurance reform.

And the result of this Senator saying "we can't?" The public option is declared impossible. Americans cannot purchase Medicare at an earlier age. The health insurance reform effort we have needed for a century is at risk.

SEIU does not accept that this monumental effort - that this reform that is so necessary to the health and wellbeing of our economy, our families and our future - can be over without a fight. A fight to make it work for you and your families.

Last night, we held a meeting with your International Executive Board--leaders from across the country. Leaders who know you, who understand what you are going through, and above all else, who believe that every one of you deserves a chance to weigh in on our next steps.

We talked about everything that makes this reform meaningful:

The 30 million more people who will have healthcare they can count on;
The people who will no longer lose their coverage if they get sick;
All of us who no longer have to worry about being denied coverage because of pre-existing conditions;
Women who will no longer be discriminated against just because of their gender.
But we also recognized, that like you, we have concerns.
And while it is not entirely clear what the Senate bill will look like, it is becoming clearer that:

For many people, care will still be too expensive to afford.
Some of you would face an additional burden because your health insurance benefits would be taxed.
And the best way we saw possible to hold insurance companies accountable was no longer an option.
So we asked ourselves - and we are asking you - the most critical question we have of this entire debate: where do we go from here?

We know we will fight. We will continue to fight for everything we know is important. We will fight to make care affordable. We will fight for real health insurance reforms. We will fight for employers to provide their employees with coverage. And, we will fight to pay for all of it responsibly without a tax on your benefits.

But we aren't the only ones who must fight.

President Obama must remember his own words from the campaign. His call of "Yes We Can" was not just to us, not just to the millions of people who voted for him, but to himself. We all stood shoulder to shoulder with the President during his hard fought campaign. And, we will continue to stand with him but he must fight for the reform we all know is possible. He must fight for Cynthia, Maria, and Gerry - for every American.

Our challenge to you, to the President, to the Senate and to the House of Representatives is to fight. Now, more than ever, all of us must stand up, remember what health insurance reform is all about, and fight like hell to deliver real and meaningful reform to the American people.

In Solidarity,
Andy Stern
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.







Post#1013 at 12-17-2009 09:15 PM by K-I-A 67 [at joined Jan 2005 #posts 3,010]
---
12-17-2009, 09:15 PM #1013
Join Date
Jan 2005
Posts
3,010

Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post

My blue dawg response to the big dawg would be, FU Mr. Former President, we have alternative options. We cold turn slightly more reddish, plop on a Republican hat and turn you guys/gals back into the minority party in one mid-term election. Let's see, what do we Republicans have to say and do in order to win and estentially keep the Workingman Democrats vote for the next twenty or so years.







Post#1014 at 12-17-2009 09:24 PM by Bri2k [at joined Aug 2007 #posts 133]
---
12-17-2009, 09:24 PM #1014
Join Date
Aug 2007
Posts
133

Quote Originally Posted by K-I-A 67 View Post

<snip>

Let's see, what do we Republicans have to say and do in order to win and estentially keep the Workingman Democrats vote for the next twenty or so years.
Bring back jobs that pay an honest living wage and have actual security.

Never happen.

Bri2k







Post#1015 at 12-17-2009 09:24 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
---
12-17-2009, 09:24 PM #1015
Join Date
Jul 2005
Location
NYC
Posts
10,443

Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
Like a kid waiting for Santa Claus.
Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
I don't think Rani marks it as an insult my pointing out that her primary roll here is to offer up cynical snide remarks. I think she sees it as another earned merit badge - its an Xer thingee.
Point to Playwrite.

But, "kid waiting for Santa Claus"? WTH? That's not quite the old Rani edginess we've all come to expect.

Some disappointments have been creeping in here amongst your adoring audience of late.

Perhaps I actually did you a favor by chasing away that usurper. There can only be one Rani on any board. She was pretty young - and obviously pretty peppy. And well, darling, you're not getting any younger.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

Its not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. Its much more akin to printing money. - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#1016 at 12-17-2009 09:25 PM by K-I-A 67 [at joined Jan 2005 #posts 3,010]
---
12-17-2009, 09:25 PM #1016
Join Date
Jan 2005
Posts
3,010

Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
Like a kid waiting for Santa Claus.
What's up with these liberals, everytime time they hear or see something that involves or grants freedom, they start getting all squirmy and start freaking out.







Post#1017 at 12-17-2009 09:26 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
---
12-17-2009, 09:26 PM #1017
Join Date
Jul 2005
Location
NYC
Posts
10,443

Quote Originally Posted by K-I-A 67 View Post
My blue dawg response to the big dawg would be, FU Mr. Former President, we have alternative options. We cold turn slightly more reddish, plop on a Republican hat and turn you guys/gals back into the minority party in one mid-term election. Let's see, what do we Republicans have to say and do in order to win and estentially keep the Workingman Democrats vote for the next twenty or so years.
Easy, grow a brain and turn into Democrats.

Nay, not gonna happen.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

Its not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. Its much more akin to printing money. - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#1018 at 12-17-2009 09:26 PM by Brian Rush [at California joined Jul 2001 #posts 12,392]
---
12-17-2009, 09:26 PM #1018
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
California
Posts
12,392

Quote Originally Posted by K-I-A 67 View Post
My blue dawg response to the big dawg would be, FU Mr. Former President, we have alternative options. We cold turn slightly more reddish, plop on a Republican hat and turn you guys/gals back into the minority party in one mid-term election.
Who's "we"? Are you saying you voted for Obama? Or for Clinton?
"And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, slouches toward Bethlehem to be born?"

My blog: https://brianrushwriter.wordpress.com/

The Order Master (volume one of Refuge), a science fantasy. Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GZZWEAS
Smashwords link: https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/382903







Post#1019 at 12-17-2009 09:48 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
---
12-17-2009, 09:48 PM #1019
Join Date
Jul 2005
Location
NYC
Posts
10,443

Quote Originally Posted by haymarket martyr View Post
I truly do appreciate the other progressives here aid and comfort. All of you. I do appreciate the information about Senator Kerry and his efforts. I am shifting hourly on this and feel like I am being pulled in different directions.

I want to believe. I really truly do.

I saw David Axelrod on Chris Matthews an hour ago and he was reassuring in some ways but it was lots of vague stuff.

If some authoritative source would simply be able to state with accuracy and truth that the conservative libertarian dream of allowing insurance companies to sell across state lines so they can get around strong state consumer protection laws is not happening under this proposed law, it would go along way to settling my political nerves.
I think it comes down to the trustees of the individual state or regional exchanges and further backed up by the state legislators that, due to the mandate, will have to answer to ALL their constituents about any crappy insurance being certified to be in the exchanges. Ezra has more on this here -
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezr..._the_sena.html
Prudent purchasing means that insurers can't enter, or stay, in the exchanges unless regulators are satisfied that they're doing a good job. That works both to ensure a good product, but also to hold costs down. If an insurer wants to hike premiums, for instance, they have to submit a justification to the exchanges and post that justification publicly on their Web site. If the exchange isn't convinced, that insurer can be dropped from the exchange, losing all customers and profits they were making.

Do this to one or two insurers, one or two times, and the message will be pretty strong. Moreover, it will go a ways towards countering the status quo bias that current infects insurance purchasing, wherein people don't change because, well, it's a pain to change insurers, and so insurers aren't forced to provide products as good as a competitive market would ordinarily demand. It also gives regulators a way to tamp down destructive marketing (an insurer can be dropped for using their marketing to try and cherrypick healthy customers -- say, by advertising exclusively in Runner's Monthly) and seed quality reforms.
and here =
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezr...poly_pric.html

Imagine that Blue Cross Blue Shield prices according to this monopolist logic. Their policy would normally cost $11,000. But people have to buy in, right? So they price at $13,500. For, say, Kaiser Permanente, whose policy costs $10,500, this is an opportunity. The market leader just jacked their prices up. So Kaiser begins advertising aggressively. Our policy, they say, is $1,500 cheaper than "our competitor's plans." The next year, people log onto the insurance exchange Web site to confirm their insurance plan for the year. Scrolling through the options, they notice that BCBS is way more expensive than Kaiser, or frankly, than everyone.

Maybe that's because Kaiser is worse? But consumer ratings, which are now available, show that Kaiser has a comparable satisfaction rating. Maybe it's because BCBS offers more? But no, the insurers have to list their benefits in a standard way, and it's pretty clear that BCBS isn't giving you more for your money. Ten minutes later, BCBS has lost a customer and Kaiser has gained one.

That's the market's solution to this problem. But the exchanges actually have a fail-safe solution, too. Rewind the tape to BCBS's decision to jack up premiums. Imagine that BCBS insures 420,000 people in California's exchange. As directed by law, they duly submit a notice to the Exchange Board saying they're increasing premiums. The exchange sends a letter back noting that underlying health-care trends don't justify that increase, which they're allowed to do under the law. BCBS says it doesn't care. The exchange, which doesn't much feel like being bullied, says fine, you're decertified. BCBS loses more than 400,000 customers, and has to reapply the next year.

And then, of course, there's the excise tax. Jack up your prices enough and suddenly you're paying a 40 percent surtax on the plan you're offering. Now you're way more expensive than the competition, and you're hemorrhaging customers.
Health-care reform isn't creating a monopoly market. There are other industries where people need to patronize some for-profit company. Food, for instance. But if there are a variety of companies competing for customers, monopoly problems don't emerge.

Under health-care reform, there are at least three bulwarks against the monopoly-profits scenario: Inter-insurer competition, regulators, and the tax on excessive premiums. Two of these mechanisms don't exist in the current market. One -- the market itself -- is much weaker and more opaque, and individuals have a far harder time navigating it.
Now, it is certainly possible that in maybe a few or more backward Red States where the nimrod Teabaggers equate getting bent over by the insurers as being FREEDOM, well, there a lot a folks could wind up getting screwed (but no more royally than they already are). I really don't want that to happen but compared to everyone getting screwed under the status quo, I'll take the new approach.

... and admittedly, I do find it somewhat amusing that it is likely that KIA will be one of those bent over, all squirmy, with the insurers' FREEDOM FRIES placed where the sun don't shine and freakin out about how he can afford to get his sore behind to the next tea party - since they become so few and far between given that nearly everyone has left his state.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

Its not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. Its much more akin to printing money. - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#1020 at 12-17-2009 09:54 PM by K-I-A 67 [at joined Jan 2005 #posts 3,010]
---
12-17-2009, 09:54 PM #1020
Join Date
Jan 2005
Posts
3,010

Quote Originally Posted by Bri2k View Post
Bring back jobs that pay an honest living wage and have actual security.

Never happen.

Bri2k
Sure it can happen, we control a large portion the worlds economy, we've got the money to invest, all we need from you is to deliver us the votes on a routine basis. Do you want the quality of your health care to be based on whatever the government is willing or able to afford?







Post#1021 at 12-17-2009 10:13 PM by K-I-A 67 [at joined Jan 2005 #posts 3,010]
---
12-17-2009, 10:13 PM #1021
Join Date
Jan 2005
Posts
3,010

[QUOTE=playwrite;285860]I think it comes down to the trustees of the individual state or regional exchanges and further backed up by the state legislators that, due to the mandate, will have to answer to ALL their constituents about any crappy insurance being certified to be in the exchanges. Ezra has more on this here -
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezr..._the_sena.html


and here =
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezr...poly_pric.html



Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
Now, it is certainly possible that in maybe a few or more backward Red States where the nimrod Teabaggers equate getting bent over by the insurers as being FREEDOM, well, there a lot a folks could wind up getting screwed (but no more royally than they already are). I really don't want that to happen but compared to everyone getting screwed under the status quo, I'll take the new approach.

... and admittedly, I do find it somewhat amusing that it is likely that KIA will be one of those bent over, all squirmy, with the insurers' FREEDOM FRIES placed where the sun don't shine and freakin out about how he can afford to get his sore behind to the next tea party - since they become so few and far between given that nearly everyone has left his state.
Are you that lazy, that incompetent or that uncapable of managing your own life, economic decissions, your own choices and managing your own personal affairs?







Post#1022 at 12-17-2009 10:52 PM by KaiserD2 [at David Kaiser '47 joined Jul 2001 #posts 5,220]
---
12-17-2009, 10:52 PM #1022
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
David Kaiser '47
Posts
5,220

Millennial perspective on health care

I heard this on NPR this morning. The Democrats could win a Rooseveltian majority if they could actually do something for people like this.

Heard on Morning Edition

December 17, 2009 - STEVE INSKEEP, host:

Commentator Brittany Hunsaker of Youth Radio has not started her career yet, but she's already worried about health insurance. She grew up in Whitesburg, Kentucky, and is helping to break the cycle of poverty in her family by going to college.

She works plenty of hours to pay for school, but she doesn't have insurance.

BRITTANY HUNSAKER: My 19th birthday was a bittersweet occasion. That day, I officially aged out of Kentucky's insurance program for low-income youth.

As luck would have it, I developed a health problem almost immediately. Pain in my teeth spread to my head and neck, and headaches made it impossible to concentrate in my college classes. I couldn't see well enough to drive. Going to the doctor or dentist cost more than my weekly paycheck from a fast-food restaurant. I had to choose between oral surgery and textbooks that semester. Textbooks lost, but luckily I made it through that class.

When it comes to health care, I do have options - just not good ones. In the rural county where I grew up, it's not just young people who don't have health insurance. Adults, unemployed or underemployed in minimum wage jobs, are also without coverage. You can get health care there if you're in a dire situation, like if you're pregnant or recovering from drug addiction. I know a few girls who got pregnant just to afford a doctor's visit, or had another baby just to keep their health insurance.

I am not financially or emotionally ready to bring a child into this world, but I feel like I am being penalized for getting an education while others are rewarded for their reproductive capabilities.

My friend Willa Johnson is also in college and uninsured. Going to the doctor to check a cough is a luxury she can't afford. Last spring, she started feeling sick. By the time she went to the emergency room, she had full-blown pneumonia. A week later, Willa found herself in the emergency room again. She'd torn the muscles around her rib cage from coughing. Seven months later, Willa has not completely healed. Her cough is painful to hear. Still, she worries more about the bill collectors calling for those ER visits than her health.

My friend Brian Hobbs just graduated from college, and he's about to lose his insurance. He won't be able to afford the prescription for his glasses. What happens if he gets sick? Brian is scared he won't find a job that pays enough to cover rent and food, let alone annual insurance.

Looking at my own future, I'm worried that my health will keep getting worse, that my teeth will keep bothering me, that I'll keep ignoring aches and pains, and that I'll continue to just Google symptoms to see if things are serious enough to warrant a bill.

I grew up in one of the sickest communities in America, with the lowest life expectancy of any area in the U.S., lower than China or Mexico. Cancer, diabetes, addiction, obesity, depression all look like epidemics there, and that adds to my worry.

I don't think any position I'm going to get out of college will come with health insurance. I don't know a single friend from college who has a job like that. A sick workforce only intensifies an already sick economy. It's hard to work when you can't afford eyeglasses for your astigmatism, dental work for your rotting teeth, or medicine for pneumonia. We're constantly being told we are the future of the country, but we're starting out a step behind.

INSKEEP: Commentator Brittany Hunsaker attends the University of Kentucky at Lexington. Her essay comes to us from the Appalachian Media Institute and Youth Radio, and you can comment on it at the Opinion Page of npr.org.







Post#1023 at 12-17-2009 11:26 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
---
12-17-2009, 11:26 PM #1023
Join Date
Jul 2005
Location
NYC
Posts
10,443

Quote Originally Posted by K-I-A 67 View Post
]Are you that lazy, that incompetent or that uncapable of managing your own life, economic decissions, your own choices and managing your own personal affairs?
No, I am not lazy, incompetent or incapable of managing my life, family, career, community involvement, social choices, political choices, spiritual choices, etc, etc, and have done pretty well in just about all categories - not to say there have not been difficulties if not tragedies. However, right now, health care for myself and love ones - ain't a problem.

The question for me is what is better for my countrymen. I certainly believe in the work ethic and the American dream, but I don't equate that to the Social Darwinism you seem to believe in. And I see readily available health care as being no more special that having readily drivable roads or utilities readily provided to my adobe (well, there is the ConEd exceptions, but the water is excellent!). I believe the US is capable of that; you apparently believe it is not and that only the strong deserve a seat at the table.

I find most people who have such an attitude actually have been highly privileged and/or lucky in getting to their 'achievements.' Their casting their eyes down on those less fortunate and claiming that only strength in effort or character made the difference is really more about their own self doubts and their buried terror that they might too become as poorly off. Because, deep down inside, they really don't have a clue as to how they got to where they are. They figure the only way to make sure they stay there is to play king of the mountain -- because really, like yourself, they haven't yet grown up and learned something called empathy.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

Its not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. Its much more akin to printing money. - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#1024 at 12-17-2009 11:28 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
---
12-17-2009, 11:28 PM #1024
Join Date
Jul 2005
Location
NYC
Posts
10,443

Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
What do think the Repub version of health care reform would look like?
Easy, don't get sick.

Man, this Rani thing is kinda fun!
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

Its not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. Its much more akin to printing money. - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#1025 at 12-18-2009 12:20 AM by The Grey Badger [at Albuquerque, NM joined Sep 2001 #posts 8,876]
---
12-18-2009, 12:20 AM #1025
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
Albuquerque, NM
Posts
8,876

And if you so, the Scrooge Solution applies. "Let them die, and reduce the surplus population."
How to spot a shill, by John Michael Greer: "What you watch for is (a) a brand new commenter who (b) has nothing to say about the topic under discussion but (c) trots out a smoothly written opinion piece that (d) hits all the standard talking points currently being used by a specific political or corporate interest, while (e) avoiding any other points anyone else has made on that subject."

"If the shoe fits..." The Grey Badger.
-----------------------------------------