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Thread: It's time for national healthcare - Page 43







Post#1051 at 12-19-2009 12:19 AM by wtrg8 [at NoVA joined Dec 2008 #posts 1,262]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
I got drunk on Thanksgiving with a bunch of Irishmen. Might do the same for Xmas. Happy holidays!
Watch out for the Irish Car bombs..Guinness and Bailey's. Happy Holidays to you you as well!!







Post#1052 at 12-19-2009 11:02 AM by Child of Socrates [at Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort joined Sep 2001 #posts 14,092]
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Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
Now that Ezra has kick the legs out from under Dean's rationale, he's turned to Markos demand to re-gain his support - the jettisoning of the individual mandate.

Wow, this Ezra kid is much more relentless than even me! Smarter too!

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezr...ividual_m.html



More good stuff at the link.

Just hope netrootsland is paying attention and not just continuing with the death screams.
Bless you for keeping up with this. I took the day off yesterday to take care of some personal business (and to go out for a nice Italian dinner and a few drinks).







Post#1053 at 12-19-2009 12:10 PM by haymarket martyr [at joined Sep 2008 #posts 2,547]
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I heard on the radio that some right wingers are now claiming that God himself has sent two feet of snow to Washington DC to prevent the health care vote because he is against it too.
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.







Post#1054 at 12-19-2009 12:54 PM by Roadbldr '59 [at Vancouver, Washington joined Jul 2001 #posts 8,275]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
I got drunk on Thanksgiving with a bunch of Irishmen. Might do the same for Xmas. Happy holidays!
Sweet!!!
"Better hurry. There's a storm coming. His storm!!!" :-O -Abigail Freemantle, "The Stand" by Stephen King







Post#1055 at 12-19-2009 03:31 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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But if you try sometimes...

Krugman's good -

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/12/19/60/

- but there's nothing like the original -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGfJ0_KMiro

I went down to the Chelsea drugstore
To get your prescription filled
I was standing in line with Mr. Jimmy
And man, did he look pretty ill
We decided that we would have a soda
My favorite flavor, cherry red
I sung my song to Mr. Jimmy
Yeah, and he said one word to me, and that was "dead"
I said to him

You can't always get what you want, no!
You can't always get what you want (tell ya baby)
You can't always get what you want (no)
But if you try sometimes you just might find
You get what you need
Oh yes! Woo!

You get what you need--yeah, oh baby!
Oh yeah!
Damn straight, baby!!!

Now, hunkered down,
24 inches comin
lemon, clove, honey,
heated Bushnell's
A reading of Sammy's
Godot
Now this is an Irishman's way
of waiting a storm out.


Peace be with you.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#1056 at 12-19-2009 03:47 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Some incredible icing on the cake (or, in my drink) -

http://sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/n...D-4C3306E31B58

$10 Billion More for Community Health Centers will Revolutionize Care

WASHINGTON, December 19 – A $10 billion investment in community health centers, expected to go to $14 billion when Congress completes work on health care reform legislation, was included in a final series of changes to the Senate bill unveiled today.

The provision, which would provide primary care for 25 million more Americans, was requested by Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.).

He said the additional resources will help bring about a revolution in primary health care in America and create new or expanded health centers in an additional 10,000 communities. The provision would also provide loan repayments and scholarships through the National Health Service Corps to create an additional 20,000 primary care doctors, dentists, nurse practitioners, physician assistants and mental health professionals.

Very importantly, Sanders also said the provision would save Medicaid tens of billions of dollars by keeping patients out of emergency rooms and hospitals by providing primary care when then needed it.

Sanders has worked with House Majority Whip James Clyburn (D-S.C.) to include $14 billion in the House version of the legislation.

Sanders is also working with Sen. Ron Wyden (D-Ore.) to improve language already in the bill to provide waivers for states that want to provide comprehensive, affordable health care and curb rapidly-rising costs for money-making private health insurance companies. The waivers could clear the way for a state-run, single-payer system.

For the health centers, the $14 billion in the bill that the House of Representatives approved on Nov. 7 would increase the number of centers from 20 million to 45 million over the next five years.

The investment would more than pay for itself by saving Medicaid $23 billion over five years on reduced emergency room use and hospital costs, according to a study conducted by George Washington University.

The system of Federally Qualified Health Centers began four decades ago under pioneering legislation by the late Sen. Edward M. Kennedy. Community health centers now provide primary health care, dental care, mental health counseling and low-cost prescription drugs for about 20 million Americans. The centers offer basic services like prenatal care, childhood immunizations and cancer screenings. Open to everyone, the centers care for patients covered by Medicaid, Medicare and private insurance as well as those who have no insurance.

Dan Hawkins, senior vice president of the National Association of Community Health Centers, testified before Congress earlier this year that the cost of care at health centers is 41 percent less than what is spent to care for patients elsewhere. The savings would grow if health centers were expanded to serve more patients, according to Hawkins.

In Vermont, eight health centers and 40 satellite offices provide primary health care to more than 100,000 patients regardless of their ability to pay. Sanders said that with the additional health care funding it was very likely that new centers would be established in Addison County, Bennington County and perhaps Windham County.
Thanks, Bernie!
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#1057 at 12-19-2009 04:43 PM by herbal tee [at joined Dec 2005 #posts 7,116]
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Right Arrow Back on the fence

Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
Some incredible icing on the cake (or, in my drink) -

http://sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/n...D-4C3306E31B58



Thanks, Bernie!
Good find. Saunders is one of the true workhorses of the Senate. :
For the record, I know well the problems of having a bill die at this point.
I'd like to think that team Obama has learned the importance of guiding Congress, but I have my doubts.
Still, demographics demand action very quickly in order to transition the Medicaid system through the 2010's. For now, I'm holding my nose and not actively opposing things as they stand now.







Post#1058 at 12-19-2009 04:53 PM by haymarket martyr [at joined Sep 2008 #posts 2,547]
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Yeah Bernie. I would be proud to have that man as my senator. Glad to see him do something which is for the common good.
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.







Post#1059 at 12-19-2009 07:39 PM by The Wonkette [at Arlington, VA 1956 joined Jul 2002 #posts 9,209]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
The "she was pretty young" comment wasn't about me. That's why I got confused.
Ah, well you're pretty young compared to this old fart. And Playwrite is older than me!
I want people to know that peace is possible even in this stupid day and age. Prem Rawat, June 8, 2008







Post#1060 at 12-19-2009 11:59 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Wonkette View Post
Ah, well you're pretty young compared to this old fart. And Playwrite is older than me!
Yea, but we're both -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bslSxYwgwlE

Fairy tales can come true, it can happen to you
If you’re young at heart
For it’s hard, you will find, to be narrow of
mind
If you’re young at heart

You can go to extremes with impossible schemes
You can laugh when your dreams fall apart at the
seams
And life gets more exciting with each passing
day
And love is either in your heart or on it’s way

Don’t you know that it’s worth every treasure on
earth
To be young at heart
For as rich as you are it’s much better by far
To be young at heart

And if you should survive to 105
Look at all you’ll derive out of being alive
Then here is the best part
You have a head start
If you are among the very young at heart
Old blue eyes.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#1061 at 12-20-2009 02:30 AM by Bob Butler 54 [at Cove Hold, Carver, MA joined Jul 2001 #posts 6,431]
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Left Arrow Beyond Health Care

Here we have Krugman again on health care, saying Pass the Bill. Nothing very new at the start, but he strikes a different note at the end. For discussion purposes...

Quote Originally Posted by Krugman
Beyond that, we need to take on the way the Senate works. The filibuster, and the need for 60 votes to end debate, aren’t in the Constitution. They’re a Senate tradition, and that same tradition said that the threat of filibusters should be used sparingly. Well, Republicans have already trashed the second part of the tradition: look at a list of cloture motions over time, and you’ll see that since the G.O.P. lost control of Congress it has pursued obstructionism on a literally unprecedented scale. So it’s time to revise the rules.
Jay Leno put it a bit differently. He thinks the senate ought to experiment with a new concept.... majority rule.

I've been hearing people saying we ought to change the cloture rules more and more of late. I'm starting to think a majority rule system might be more central to creating a true regeneracy than supposedly 'major' issues like Afghanistan, health care, the economy or global warming.

The way things are going, the Democrats might not be able to do enough to please the People before the 2010 and 2012 election cycles come around. A rules change might be really big.

I used to use Robert's Rules of Order a bit. Each speaker would be given a certain amount of time to speak, with more time granted by a majority vote. The current Senate system has every debate in principle able to go on forever, with a 60% super majority required to end the talk and bring about a vote. This effectively allows 40% plus one Senators to veto legislation.

I like Robert's system better.







Post#1062 at 12-20-2009 02:54 PM by KaiserD2 [at David Kaiser '47 joined Jul 2001 #posts 5,220]
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The bill--a real challenge

I blogged about the situation yesterday--hope everyone will take a look (link below).

I supposed our third turning is so entrenched that this was the only way to pass anything--or was it? We'll never know. Part of me thinks the country would have responded to a better, more sustained PR campaign from the White House. Part of me thinks that every Democratic/independent vote had to be bought and we have set up some momentum. Essentially we are refighting our civil war without bullets. It's better than fighting it with bullets, but every victory is hedged in thousands of ways.

There are so many things wrong with the current bill. The payoffs to individual states are scandalous even by today's standards. (Never has the absurdity of two Senators per state been more obvious--the smaller your state, the more your vote costs, it seems.) As I blogged, the LA Times has discovered a provision that will make health plans like banks--they can be chartered and operate under the laws of one state and be sold anywhere in the country, thus circumventing the states that have good regulatory systems. Because single-payer is as unmentionable as slavery (I was intrigued that a Senate gag rule was applied against it, in effect, to prevent a vote, just like slavery petitions in the 1830s), we keep multiplying special programs for the poor, the not-so-poor, the slightly poor, etc, instead of just one simple system for everyone, called Medicare!!!!!

On the other hand, the bill is going to pass over unanimous Republican opposition. That could really backfire for them. But on the other hand (I sound like Tevye), the bill won't do anything for anybody until after the 2012 election. In the Senate bill even the provision to protect people with pre-existing conditions doesn't kick in until 2014!!! Medicare, I believe, went into effect one year after it was passed. Different times, different world.

I have to agree with my soulmate Krugman that any bill is better than no bill but. . .if this is the best we can do. . .ouch.







Post#1063 at 12-20-2009 02:57 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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I still cannot support a mandate without a strong public option and STRICT regulation of the insurance industry. Sorry guys, I just can't.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#1064 at 12-20-2009 04:54 PM by Child of Socrates [at Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort joined Sep 2001 #posts 14,092]
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Quote Originally Posted by Bob Butler 54 View Post
Jay Leno put it a bit differently. He thinks the senate ought to experiment with a new concept.... majority rule.

I've been hearing people saying we ought to change the cloture rules more and more of late. I'm starting to think a majority rule system might be more central to creating a true regeneracy than supposedly 'major' issues like Afghanistan, health care, the economy or global warming.

The way things are going, the Democrats might not be able to do enough to please the People before the 2010 and 2012 election cycles come around. A rules change might be really big.

I used to use Robert's Rules of Order a bit. Each speaker would be given a certain amount of time to speak, with more time granted by a majority vote. The current Senate system has every debate in principle able to go on forever, with a 60% super majority required to end the talk and bring about a vote. This effectively allows 40% plus one Senators to veto legislation.

I like Robert's system better.
Even without the filibuster, the Senate can serve as a check on runaway democracy. I say do away with it altogether.







Post#1065 at 12-20-2009 07:31 PM by The Wonkette [at Arlington, VA 1956 joined Jul 2002 #posts 9,209]
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Once Upon a Time...

I received this story from my synagogue listserve.

Op-Ed Columnist
The New Perils of Pauline

By GAIL COLLINS

When we last left the health care reform bill, it was tied up on the railroad track, writhing helplessly with the train bearing down. The role of Snidely Whiplash was played by Senator Joseph Lieberman.

Time for a new episode. Having stripped away all the parts that offended his sensibilities, Lieberman has slunk off and the fate of the legislation is now in the hands of Senator Ben Nelson of Nebraska.
People, when did it become necessary for average, conscientious-but-not-fanatic citizens to know the names of so many senators?

There was probably a time when you thought “Max Baucus” was a brand of sausage. And now we not only know that he is the chairman of the Senate Finance Committee and from Montana, we are also up to the minute on his divorce and his “mature and happy” relationship with his live-in girlfriend.

We know more about Max Baucus than we do about Brad Pitt! That seems wrong, so very wrong.

Nelson is the most conservative Democrat in the Senate and a guy who seems to really enjoy having the fate of the health care bill in his hands. We have mentioned before that George W. Bush used to call him “The Benator.” Have we mentioned that he used to be president of an insurance company?

He is being treated like a visiting superpower. When the prime minister of India came to the United States, he got that one crasher-wracked party and an hour of face time with Barack Obama. Ben Nelson has met Obama at least three times in the last nine days. The president, he said serenely, “made a strong case for passing health care reform, but it remains to be seen if it was compelling.”

Good work making your case, most powerful person on the planet.

But we will see if it meets the standards of Senator Ben Nelson.

So the health care bill, which was already watered down for Max Baucus and then stripped down for Joe Lieberman, is now being sent to the sauna for Ben Nelson. The big question on the liberal side is whether what remains will still be worth supporting. On Friday, MoveOn started a petition urging progressive senators “to block the current Senate bill until it is improved.” The blogosphere resounds with calls to go back and start over.

Our question for today is: Does this make sense? Has the health care bill been so abused by the various pols who’ve held its fate in their hands that it’s time to put it out of its misery?

Let me tell you a story. ...

Back in 1971, Congress passed a bill aimed at providing high-quality early childhood education and after-school programs for any American family that wanted them. It was bipartisan, which in those days meant more than a whole lot of Democrats and somebody from Maine. “Having been a working mother, I knew what day-care problems were like,” said Martha Phillips, who was at that time a staffer at the Republican Research Committee in the House.

Then Richard Nixon surprised almost everyone by vetoing it, with a scathing message written by Pat Buchanan, claiming the bill would “commit the vast moral authority of the National Government to the side of communal approaches to child rearing.”

The social right, which was just beginning to come into its own, was delighted! Opponents reinforced the message with a massive letter-writing campaign. They accused members of Congress of plotting to deprive parents of the right to take their offspring to church, give children the power to sue their parents for forcing them to do chores, and, in general, turn the country into a Maoist concentration camp.

“We really saw the beginning of the right-wing religious agenda,” said Walter Mondale, who was the chief Senate sponsor of the bill. “They used this bill to raise fears about undermining parents, Sovietizing American youth. People were afraid to touch it for a while.”

Meanwhile, there was hardly a peep from the other side. Children’s advocates had been enthusiastic at first, but as the legislation made its way through Congress, they squabbled over what kinds of community groups should be allowed to deliver the services.
Advocates for poor children were worried that subsidies for middle-class families would reduce the amount available to help the neediest.

“It wasn’t perfect,” said Mondale. “We’ve never passed a perfect bill in American history. But it would have made a big difference.”
In the end, the people who hated the whole idea were much more energized than the people who loved the idea, but disagreed on the details.

“People always think there will be another day,” said Jack Duncan, who was counsel for the subcommittee that handled the bill in the House. “Well, there might be another day, but not in my lifetime.”

Remind you of anything?
I want people to know that peace is possible even in this stupid day and age. Prem Rawat, June 8, 2008







Post#1066 at 12-20-2009 07:53 PM by herbal tee [at joined Dec 2005 #posts 7,116]
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Long term

I have neighbors who depend on the county clinic for their healthcare.
The expansion of the county clinic system that Senator Saunders has obtained will improve the quality of life of millions of working poor both urban and rural areas.

If it weren't for the abuses to be expected of interstate insurance, I could be for this bill without reservations.
However, I do suspect that if abuses occur under the new law, the popular outcry will be to invoke the tenth amendment's guarantee of state autonomy.
They'll have to amend the law to allow for some kind of nationwide regulation.







Post#1067 at 12-21-2009 02:39 AM by Seattleblue [at joined Aug 2009 #posts 562]
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Due to popular demand, and rising fear in Congress, the health care bill will now include a pittance of health care. rofl

So if this few billion is going to serve 25 million people, why not take the money that is going to be funneled into the insurance industry and like, you know, build hospitals and train doctors and stuff? How much money every year is going to be collected by the government for this so-called health program, and how much is going into the pockets of big business? And in all that money they couldn't find a penny to put towards the problem until this latest joke.

No, this is an insult. They actually think they are going to get away with it, but I bet they pay a high price this time around.







Post#1068 at 12-21-2009 02:48 AM by jadams [at the tropics joined Feb 2003 #posts 1,097]
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a penny stolen...

Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
I still cannot support a mandate without a strong public option and STRICT regulation of the insurance industry. Sorry guys, I just can't.
I am with you. The way it stands it is a license to steal. What a "generation". I guess if you can't get a job "doing" anything. Stealing is your only option.
jadams

"Can it be believed that the democracy that has overthrown the feudal system and vanquished kings will retreat before tradesmen and capitalists?" Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America







Post#1069 at 12-21-2009 07:58 AM by herbal tee [at joined Dec 2005 #posts 7,116]
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Quote Originally Posted by Seattleblue View Post
Due to popular demand, and rising fear in Congress, the health care bill will now include a pittance of health care. rofl

So if this few billion is going to serve 25 million people, why not take the money that is going to be funneled into the insurance industry and like, you know, build hospitals and train doctors and stuff? How much money every year is going to be collected by the government for this so-called health program, and how much is going into the pockets of big business? And in all that money they couldn't find a penny to put towards the problem until this latest joke.

No, this is an insult. They actually think they are going to get away with it, but I bet they pay a high price this time around.
Yeah, sausage making is a b-+ch, isn't it?







Post#1070 at 12-21-2009 04:02 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Here's some really good analysis for what this might mean for average families -

http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/Colu...22109Cohn.aspx



One way to answer this question is by comparing how a typical family would fare with reform and without. At my request, MIT economist Jonathan Gruber produced a set of figures, based on official Congressional Budget Office estimates. The results tell a pretty compelling story, particularly when put in human terms.

Let’s imagine it’s 2016 and you are an administrative assistant, a garage mechanic or perhaps trying your hand at consulting for the first time. You’re married, just turned 40 and have two kids to feed on a household income of around $50,000. You want to buy health insurance, but can’t get it through an employer. How much will it cost? And how much--or how little--protection will it provide?

If reform doesn’t pass, according to Gruber’s figures, the average premium for the non-group market--that is, the market for people buying coverage on their own--will be around $12,000 a year. Right off the bat, you’re spending a fifth of your income on health insurance.

But what does it cover? Policies in the non-group market are notoriously spotty and unreliable. And benefit requirements vary enormously depending on the state. Many allow considerable, sometimes unlimited, out-of-pocket expenses. For the sake of comparison, though, let’s assume you have a policy with a deductible no higher than that allowed for a Health Savings Account. According to Gruber’s projections, that would mean you’re on the hook for--wait for it--another $12,000, plus a few hundred in change.

Put it altogether and that’s a total liability of around nearly $25,000--about half of your income.

That may actually be a best-case scenario in one sense. If you’re going to hit that high deductible, chances are pretty good that someone in your family has a chronic medical condition. And if you or your family member has had that condition all along, insurers might not even sell you a policy. Maybe you have diabetes. Or you’re married to a cancer survivor. Maybe one of your kids has asthma. Whatever the case, chances are you can’t get health insurance at all. Your total risk of loss would be, well, every single penny you have.

So what happens if reform does pass? For starters--and this is no small thing--the insurance company will have to sell you a policy, no matter what pre-existing conditions your family brings to the table. And you’ll know from the start that the policy will cover basic services because the government will be defining a basic benefits package. That package is going to include a broader range of services than the typical non-group policy would without reform. So when your doctor recommends a standard test or procedure, you won't have to panic it falls into some hidden policy loophole.

But what will that coverage cost? The basic premium is roughly the same, according to Gruber’s calculations that he extrapolated from official Congressional Budget Office estimates. But that $50,000 income means you’re also eligible for federal subsidies. Large federal subsidies. In fact, the government will cover about two-thirds of the price, so that you’re left owing just $3,600.

Now, you could end up spending a lot more on medical care if you or someone in your family gets sick. But here, too, the federal government would step in to help. Under the reforms, the government would limit out-of-pocket spending to around $6,000 per year. Combined with the premium, you’re on the hook for around $10,000 total, or about a fifth of your income.

That’s not pocket change, for sure. A family making $50,000 will have to make serious sacrifices to find $10,000. But it’s better--light years better--than finding $25,000 or more. It’s potentially the difference between having to give up your home, get an extra job or declare bankruptcy. Just knowing the bills that could come will be the difference between getting care you need--and skipping it, at grave risk to your health.

It’s a difference you’d feel at other income levels, too. If your family of four makes more money--say, around $75,000--your premiums and out-of-pocket expenses will be higher, but still a few thousand less than it’d be without reform. If you make less money-- $35,000--the savings would be much larger. (If you make less than that, you'll probably be on Medicaid, which offers even more protection.)
Let's list a few other thing this bill does -

- Ban on pre-existing condition for children immediately; for adults by 2014
- Allowing parents to keep the kids on their insurance until they're 26
- NO lifetime OR annual caps on benefits
- Medical loss ratio set at 80% individual plan; 85% group plan - current national average is 70%
- Rescission protections.
- Establishment of exchanges allowing x-state competition but with oversight by boards that can de-certify an insurer that raises premiums unreasonable.
- A substantial increase in required reporting by insurers to customers of their practices, claims denials, cost-sharing for out of network practitioners, etc. allowing more honest comparable shopping than ever before
- Huge increase in monies for community health centers and to support medical students as noted above.
- All paid for without slamming average income earners and it lowers the federal deficit.
- tax breaks for small employers that do provide insurance
and much, much more.

Frankly, the only people who aren't thrilled by the prospects of this bill are either nearly completely ignorant of what it offers, haven't really experienced what it takes to get things done, Xer nihilists/glibertarians that just like to bitch, or the mostly Boomer narcissistic Social Darwinists and their nimrod teabagging sheeple that don't give a damn about anyone but themselves.

I've grown tired of the horseshit from all of them - I think most thinking non-narcissistic adults have.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


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If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#1071 at 12-21-2009 04:10 PM by haymarket martyr [at joined Sep 2008 #posts 2,547]
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12-21-2009, 04:10 PM #1071
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from Seattleblue

No, this is an insult. They actually think they are going to get away with it, but I bet they pay a high price this time around.
An insult to who exactly????

Who is going to get away with what exactly????

Who is going to pay a high price?????

And if "they" did not do this thing that you object to then are we to guess that no "high price" would be paid????

This whole thing with Republican complete opposition was set up from the get go to extract a political price NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENED. If the Dems passed health care, then that would be the issue and it would be made political. If the Dems did not pass health care, then that would be the issue and that would be made political.

The lesson here is that one party can indeed make anything political and run on that if that is their goal and only purpose in being.

And damn the Republican party and their Congressional members to hell for that because it is a betrayal of their oath of office. And what do you think is going to happen in the Congress when the shoe is on the other foot someday? Do you think this lesson will soon be forgotten?

This is beyond pathetic.
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.







Post#1072 at 12-21-2009 07:27 PM by Rose1992 [at Syracuse joined Sep 2008 #posts 1,833]
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12-21-2009, 07:27 PM #1072
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To all people here who support getting rid of the filibuster:
Are you actually going to continue this support if and when Republicans take back Congress, as they will at some point in time?
Just a thought.







Post#1073 at 12-21-2009 07:39 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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12-21-2009, 07:39 PM #1073
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"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#1074 at 12-21-2009 08:59 PM by Brian Rush [at California joined Jul 2001 #posts 12,392]
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12-21-2009, 08:59 PM #1074
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Quote Originally Posted by writerGrrl View Post
To all people here who support getting rid of the filibuster:
Are you actually going to continue this support if and when Republicans take back Congress, as they will at some point in time?
Just a thought.
Yes. Although the weakening of Congress' conservative bias may have short-term drawbacks from a liberal perspective when that happens, the long-term effects are entirely benign. Congress may, at any time, have a liberal majority, a conservative majority, or a reactionary majority.

Under a liberal majority such as we have now, if the filibuster were not in place more and better reforms could be enacted.

Under a conservative majority, the differences would be negligible, since such a majority would act to preserve the status quo, and that is what the filibuster leads to anyway.

Only under a reactionary majority would any problems arise at all, and since reactionary measures are almost always hugely unpopular, their enactment would simply speed the political demise of those who enact them. This would, among other very fine things, help the Republical Party return to sanity by freeing itself from the right-wing nut jobs.
"And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, slouches toward Bethlehem to be born?"

My blog: https://brianrushwriter.wordpress.com/

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Post#1075 at 12-21-2009 09:56 PM by independent [at Jacksonville - still trying to decide if its Florida or Georgia here joined Apr 2008 #posts 1,286]
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12-21-2009, 09:56 PM #1075
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Or: promoting fear of the filibuster as fig leaf for corporate donor pay-back.

Democrats are there own worst enemy here. Instead of forcing a showdown over a popular bill, they ducked the fight and pushed through a much less popular and much less effective version.
'82 iNTp
"Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the form of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question." -Jefferson
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