Generational Dynamics
Fourth Turning Forum Archive


Popular links:
Generational Dynamics Web Site
Generational Dynamics Forum
Fourth Turning Archive home page
New Fourth Turning Forum

Thread: It's time for national healthcare - Page 54







Post#1326 at 03-21-2010 04:21 PM by KaiserD2 [at David Kaiser '47 joined Jul 2001 #posts 5,220]
---
03-21-2010, 04:21 PM #1326
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
David Kaiser '47
Posts
5,220

Apparently the Congress is indeed going to join this thread. The bill seems certain to pass--and rumor has it that even Bart Stupak has agreed to vote for it. If that's true it will have a substantial majority.

I posted some new thoughts on the situation on my blog yesterday and will not repeat them here (link below.) But to summarize, I've been reading about the civil war, and Obama, like Lincoln, has had a very tough year--but this looks like Antietam, about six months early. Hallelujah.

No, it isn't perfect by any means, and it will do little right away, and Democrats will lose some seats this fall (as Republicans did in 1862), but it reverses the awful momentum that has built up over the last year. Obama will be Superman for a while in the media and perhaps sanity will take a step forward. Having had many despairing moments, I'm feeling a lot better now.







Post#1327 at 03-21-2010 05:43 PM by Ragnarök_62 [at Oklahoma joined Nov 2006 #posts 5,511]
---
03-21-2010, 05:43 PM #1327
Join Date
Nov 2006
Location
Oklahoma
Posts
5,511

Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
If anyone has a specific question, that's cool.
I'm not particularly interested in "arguing" against googlized "evidence."
Talk to me, Rani.


http://www.rxlist.com/tranxene-drug.htm
MBTI step II type : Expressive INTP

There's an annual contest at Bond University, Australia, calling for the most appropriate definition of a contemporary term:
The winning student wrote:

"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a piece of shit by the clean end."







Post#1328 at 03-21-2010 05:48 PM by Ragnarök_62 [at Oklahoma joined Nov 2006 #posts 5,511]
---
03-21-2010, 05:48 PM #1328
Join Date
Nov 2006
Location
Oklahoma
Posts
5,511

Quote Originally Posted by Brian Rush View Post
That's only true if someone who has actually prescribed the stuff is willing to talk, which apparently:
Think of Benzos as a class of drugs, like antibiotics. As per prior post, I selected one I'm familiar with. They all have different half lives, targeted uses, and metabolic profiles.


Is not the case.
We shall see, I guess...
MBTI step II type : Expressive INTP

There's an annual contest at Bond University, Australia, calling for the most appropriate definition of a contemporary term:
The winning student wrote:

"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a piece of shit by the clean end."







Post#1329 at 03-21-2010 05:50 PM by Brian Rush [at California joined Jul 2001 #posts 12,392]
---
03-21-2010, 05:50 PM #1329
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
California
Posts
12,392

Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
If anyone has a specific question, that's cool.
I asked you one earlier. You never answered. I then did some research on my own, as you suggested.

Here, I'll try again. What problems exist with the short-term use of these drugs? (Over time, the problems are obvious and so that's not what I'm asking about.) You mentioned respiratory and cognitive impairment.

Do the respiratory problems associated with the drugs persist after they are discontinued?

Under what circumstances could these respiratory problems lead to fatality?

Does the cognitive impairment associated with the drugs persist after they are discontinued?

If that's not sufficiently specific I'll try to narrow it down further.

I'm really not playing games with you here. I respect your opinion as an expert, and would like to understand why you hold that opinion. I assume that you have some good reason. I would like to know what it is.
"And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, slouches toward Bethlehem to be born?"

My blog: https://brianrushwriter.wordpress.com/

The Order Master (volume one of Refuge), a science fantasy. Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GZZWEAS
Smashwords link: https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/382903







Post#1330 at 03-21-2010 05:50 PM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
---
03-21-2010, 05:50 PM #1330
Join Date
May 2005
Location
"Michigrim"
Posts
15,014

It's amazing that Republican opponents to the bill have been lining up to say this:

"I request to extend my comment in opposition to this flawed health care bill" as if the message were supplied from some outside entity or from some Party boss.

A few have even forgotten to say the last word -- bill -- which gives a comic effect in that it negates the message. Freudian slip?

You would think that there would be some variety. To be sure, I heard "failed" and "unconstitutional". Does it take much imagination to be a corporate stooge in Congress? I don't know. Did it take much intellect to be a member of the Reichstag between 1933 and 1945 or the Parliament of Iraq when Saddam Hussein was in power??

Apparently some Congressmen have campaign contributions to collect.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#1331 at 03-21-2010 05:54 PM by Ragnarök_62 [at Oklahoma joined Nov 2006 #posts 5,511]
---
03-21-2010, 05:54 PM #1331
Join Date
Nov 2006
Location
Oklahoma
Posts
5,511

Quote Originally Posted by pbrower2a View Post
...
Apparently some Congressmen have campaign contributions to collect.
And obviously to contribute nothing to actually solving the problem! Like the old commercial, to the Republican party, where is YOUR plan? Where's the beef?
Last edited by Ragnarök_62; 03-21-2010 at 06:00 PM.
MBTI step II type : Expressive INTP

There's an annual contest at Bond University, Australia, calling for the most appropriate definition of a contemporary term:
The winning student wrote:

"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a piece of shit by the clean end."







Post#1332 at 03-21-2010 06:07 PM by 85turtle [at joined Dec 2009 #posts 362]
---
03-21-2010, 06:07 PM #1332
Join Date
Dec 2009
Posts
362

Quote Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62 View Post
And obviously to contribute nothing to actually solving the problem! Like the old commercial, to the Republican party, where is YOUR plan? Where's the beef?
They chose war over healthcare in every circumstance, save Nixon during Watergate.
MBTI: INTJ (rational-mastermind)

"Don't Freak Out" - Yvonne Strahovski (Gen Y), Sarah Walker on Chuck

Sexy Bitch - Sarah Walker fan video (not mine)

Chuck vs. the Nacho Sampler (3x06)
Clip from the 1st scene
Clip from the 2nd scene

Chuck vs. the Honeymooners (3x14)
Southern Accents

"I hope to inspire everyone and ask, where is our march? Where are our petitions? Where the fuck are our minds? I know there are a few petitions out there that I have signed, but it's not enough." -Sasha Grey







Post#1333 at 03-21-2010 07:08 PM by Brian Rush [at California joined Jul 2001 #posts 12,392]
---
03-21-2010, 07:08 PM #1333
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
California
Posts
12,392

(Sigh.) I guess I have to make allowances in your case, all things considered. But really, you're being utterly paranoid here.

I am not trying to "show you up at your profession." I'm just trying to learn something. All right, you say those questions are irrelevant. Why is that? What are the relevant questions? What makes these drugs unsuitable for use as anti-anxiety medications pre-surgery?

These aren't "gotcha" questions, they're real ones. Like I said, I assume you have a good reason for what you believe. I just can't see what it could be.
"And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, slouches toward Bethlehem to be born?"

My blog: https://brianrushwriter.wordpress.com/

The Order Master (volume one of Refuge), a science fantasy. Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GZZWEAS
Smashwords link: https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/382903







Post#1334 at 03-21-2010 07:10 PM by KaiserD2 [at David Kaiser '47 joined Jul 2001 #posts 5,220]
---
03-21-2010, 07:10 PM #1334
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
David Kaiser '47
Posts
5,220

Quote Originally Posted by pbrower2a View Post
It's amazing that Republican opponents to the bill have been lining up to say this:

"I request to extend my comment in opposition to this flawed health care bill" as if the message were supplied from some outside entity or from some Party boss.

A few have even forgotten to say the last word -- bill -- which gives a comic effect in that it negates the message. Freudian slip?

You would think that there would be some variety. To be sure, I heard "failed" and "unconstitutional". Does it take much imagination to be a corporate stooge in Congress? I don't know. Did it take much intellect to be a member of the Reichstag between 1933 and 1945 or the Parliament of Iraq when Saddam Hussein was in power??

Apparently some Congressmen have campaign contributions to collect.
Yes, I noticed that too. The one who substituted "unconstitutional" for "flawed" grinned at how clever he was. It is amazing they are so proud of marching in lock step.







Post#1335 at 03-21-2010 07:20 PM by Chas'88 [at In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky joined Nov 2008 #posts 9,432]
---
03-21-2010, 07:20 PM #1335
Join Date
Nov 2008
Location
In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky
Posts
9,432

Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
One word: tolerance.
Google it.
I know my mother was always able to build up a tolerance to pain relieving drug medications. She had to constantly switch pain relieving drugs towards the end of her life because she kept building up a tolerance to drugs after a month or less.

I'm guessing the same would be true, Rani?

~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."







Post#1336 at 03-21-2010 10:54 PM by herbal tee [at joined Dec 2005 #posts 7,116]
---
03-21-2010, 10:54 PM #1336
Join Date
Dec 2005
Posts
7,116

Right Arrow 219-212

The Senate HCR bill passes the House. President Obama will sign it. It will now become the law. Two related votes pending and both are expected to pass.







Post#1337 at 03-21-2010 10:59 PM by Earl and Mooch [at Delaware - we pave paradise and put up parking lots joined Sep 2002 #posts 2,106]
---
03-21-2010, 10:59 PM #1337
Join Date
Sep 2002
Location
Delaware - we pave paradise and put up parking lots
Posts
2,106

Quote Originally Posted by herbal tee View Post
The Senate HCR bill passes the House. President Obama will sign it. It will now become the law. Two related votes pending and both are expected to pass.
But not before the anti-abortion crowd has to make even more noise (sigh). It's almost 11:00 on this side of the country. I turned on C-SPAN at 1 thinking there'd be a little bit of formal debate, and then the votes. (Was I ever wrong. Fortunately I haven't stayed with C-SPAN all this time.)
"My generation, we were the generation that was going to change the world: somehow we were going to make it a little less lonely, a little less hungry, a little more just place. But it seems that when that promise slipped through our hands we didn´t replace it with nothing but lost faith."

Bruce Springsteen, 1987
http://brucebase.wikispaces.com/1987...+YORK+CITY,+NY







Post#1338 at 03-21-2010 11:07 PM by General Mung Beans [at joined Sep 2009 #posts 384]
---
03-21-2010, 11:07 PM #1338
Join Date
Sep 2009
Posts
384

Quote Originally Posted by Earl and Mooch View Post
But not before the anti-abortion crowd has to make even more noise (sigh).
With merit.







Post#1339 at 03-21-2010 11:17 PM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
---
03-21-2010, 11:17 PM #1339
Join Date
May 2005
Location
"Michigrim"
Posts
15,014

It's over. Now it devolves to issues of implementation. We get to join the rest of the world -- maybe with undue sloth -- toward a system of health care that makes sense.

I knew that it was over when John Boehner gave a hysterical oration claiming that passage of this bill would result in the destruction that everything we Americans believe in. A system in which insurance companies insure at will, take away at will, and effectively take a cut out of every medical procedure. Nancy Pelosi countered with a calm, measured, rational approach, one 100% alien to the paranoid rantings of tea-bag protesters and the Orwellian rhetoric of the health insurance industry. Political debate is best done with sanity in view of the consequences.

It is largely on partisan lines, Republicans, the supposed pro-business party, standing firmly against legislation that is good for every business except the health-insurance business. It will be good for the small businesses that will need to form to abso0rb the unemployed who can no longer expect to be on a payroll of a large business. It will be good for people. Sure, it's only a start, and we need to work on a full-employment economy so that people can pay for their insurance.

The tension is over.

Is this the regeneracy?
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#1340 at 03-21-2010 11:35 PM by General Mung Beans [at joined Sep 2009 #posts 384]
---
03-21-2010, 11:35 PM #1340
Join Date
Sep 2009
Posts
384

Here's the one trillion dollar question: is this the Millennial Cycle's Smoot-Hawley Tariff or Social Security? Smoot-Hawley Tariff passed at the same point as in the current Crisis.







Post#1341 at 03-21-2010 11:55 PM by herbal tee [at joined Dec 2005 #posts 7,116]
---
03-21-2010, 11:55 PM #1341
Join Date
Dec 2005
Posts
7,116

Right Arrow We be 4T

Quote Originally Posted by General Mung Beans View Post
Here's the one trillion dollar question: is this the Millennial Cycle's Smoot-Hawley Tariff or Social Security? Smoot-Hawley Tariff passed at the same point as in the current Crisis.
It is hard to ovestate how important tonight is.
We are moving deeper into the 4T.

Short term tonight means that the 1994 redux midterm election that the Republicans were hoping for will be dampened. Democratic vote numbers in the next Congress will be higher because of today's results than they would have been.

Longer term this means that the the policy shift away from the supply side economics dominant since the Reagan years continues. The 3T is over. The 3T policy agenda is beginning to fall away with the changing conditions.

In terms of the 2012 election the odds of an Obama second term is a lot higher today than it was a few days ago when total governing failure on this issue seemed possible.

Obama is now up there with FDR and his Social Security and LBJ with Medicare. A major policy shift that will be in the history books has happened.
Last edited by herbal tee; 03-22-2010 at 12:03 AM.







Post#1342 at 03-22-2010 12:01 AM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
---
03-22-2010, 12:01 AM #1342
Join Date
Sep 2006
Location
Moorhead, MN, USA
Posts
14,442

Quote Originally Posted by General Mung Beans View Post
With merit.
Old bigoted white men have no right to tell women what to do with their bodies.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#1343 at 03-22-2010 12:30 AM by Child of Socrates [at Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort joined Sep 2001 #posts 14,092]
---
03-22-2010, 12:30 AM #1343
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort
Posts
14,092

Quote Originally Posted by herbal tee View Post
It is hard to ovestate how important tonight is.
We are moving deeper into the 4T.

Short term tonight means that the 1994 redux midterm election that the Republicans were hoping for will be dampened. Democratic vote numbers in the next Congress will be higher because of today's results than they would have been.

Longer term this means that the the policy shift away from the supply side economics dominant since the Reagan years continues. The 3T is over. The 3T policy agenda is beginning to fall away with the changing conditions.

In terms of the 2012 election the odds of an Obama second term is a lot higher today than it was a few days ago when total governing failure on this issue seemed possible.

Obama is now up there with FDR and his Social Security and LBJ with Medicare. A major policy shift that will be in the history books has happened.
I agree with all of the above. Congratulations to all who worked so hard to get this done.







Post#1344 at 03-22-2010 12:34 AM by Rose1992 [at Syracuse joined Sep 2008 #posts 1,833]
---
03-22-2010, 12:34 AM #1344
Join Date
Sep 2008
Location
Syracuse
Posts
1,833

Quote Originally Posted by pbrower2a View Post
Is this the regeneracy?
Ironically I'm reading about the New Deal right now for history class. In the time it took Obama to pass HCR, FDR had introduced government regulation to almost every economic system that needed reform. He also, until 1935, had Congress's full support, and a much more subdued opposition.
If this is the regeneracy, this is a much different 4T than last time.







Post#1345 at 03-22-2010 12:50 AM by Roadbldr '59 [at Vancouver, Washington joined Jul 2001 #posts 8,275]
---
03-22-2010, 12:50 AM #1345
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
Vancouver, Washington
Posts
8,275

Quote Originally Posted by Rose1992 View Post
Ironically I'm reading about the New Deal right now for history class. In the time it took Obama to pass HCR, FDR had introduced government regulation to almost every economic system that needed reform. He also, until 1935, had Congress's full support, and a much more subdued opposition.
If this is the regeneracy, this is a much different 4T than last time.
Of course it's different, Rose. When in history has a 4T closely resembled the previous one? I believe it was Mark Twain who said that history doesn't repeat itself, but does tend to rhyme.
"Better hurry. There's a storm coming. His storm!!!" :-O -Abigail Freemantle, "The Stand" by Stephen King







Post#1346 at 03-22-2010 12:51 AM by Roadbldr '59 [at Vancouver, Washington joined Jul 2001 #posts 8,275]
---
03-22-2010, 12:51 AM #1346
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
Vancouver, Washington
Posts
8,275

Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
Old bigoted white men have no right to tell women what to do with their bodies.
With rights, however, do come responsibilities.
"Better hurry. There's a storm coming. His storm!!!" :-O -Abigail Freemantle, "The Stand" by Stephen King







Post#1347 at 03-22-2010 12:55 AM by Chas'88 [at In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky joined Nov 2008 #posts 9,432]
---
03-22-2010, 12:55 AM #1347
Join Date
Nov 2008
Location
In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky
Posts
9,432

Quote Originally Posted by Roadbldr '59 View Post
Of course it's different, Rose. When in history has a 4T closely resembled the previous one? I believe it was Mark Twain who said that history doesn't repeat itself, but does tend to rhyme.
You're quoting the old Gilded quite correctly.

~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."







Post#1348 at 03-22-2010 01:59 AM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
---
03-22-2010, 01:59 AM #1348
Join Date
May 2005
Location
"Michigrim"
Posts
15,014

Quote Originally Posted by Rose1992 View Post
Ironically I'm reading about the New Deal right now for history class. In the time it took Obama to pass HCR, FDR had introduced government regulation to almost every economic system that needed reform. He also, until 1935, had Congress's full support, and a much more subdued opposition.
If this is the regeneracy, this is a much different 4T than last time.
Aside from there being no obvious Hitler figure...

in other 4Ts, economic collapse (a panic) preceded a shift in political realities. This time, the Democrats took the House and Senate away from the Republicans (2006) before the economic meltdown of 2008. The change from a 3T President (Dubya) to a 4T President happened during the meltdown. Such may have allowed a swifter and more decisive response to the economic crisis.

This time America had two bungled wars that had started in the 3T. Contrast 1932 to 2008: Herbert Hoover had peace.

Of course we can't forget that we already have some New Deal and Great Society reforms intact -- and those may have mitigated the effects of the 2007-2009 meltdown. Obama had no qualms about putting Keynesian economics to effect from the first moment.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#1349 at 03-22-2010 02:09 AM by Chas'88 [at In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky joined Nov 2008 #posts 9,432]
---
03-22-2010, 02:09 AM #1349
Join Date
Nov 2008
Location
In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky
Posts
9,432

Quote Originally Posted by pbrower2a View Post
Aside from there being no obvious Hitler figure...

in other 4Ts, economic collapse (a panic) preceded a shift in political realities. This time, the Democrats took the House and Senate away from the Republicans (2006) before the economic meltdown of 2008. The change from a 3T President (Dubya) to a 4T President happened during the meltdown. Such may have allowed a swifter and more decisive response to the economic crisis.

This time America had two bungled wars that had started in the 3T. Contrast 1932 to 2008: Herbert Hoover had peace.

Of course we can't forget that we already have some New Deal and Great Society reforms intact -- and those may have mitigated the effects of the 2007-2009 meltdown. Obama had no qualms about putting Keynesian economics to effect from the first moment.
To continue this idea along: like having heated homes & snow plows to make a Winter Crisis that might have been much worse, more mild.

~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."







Post#1350 at 03-22-2010 02:34 AM by Rose1992 [at Syracuse joined Sep 2008 #posts 1,833]
---
03-22-2010, 02:34 AM #1350
Join Date
Sep 2008
Location
Syracuse
Posts
1,833

A couple of Millennials shot this very comical video at a Tea Party rally:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VpOnOspBZo
-----------------------------------------