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Thread: It's time for national healthcare - Page 77







Post#1901 at 11-09-2010 02:13 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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Quote Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon View Post
Luckily, there is a technology that already exists, that always works and can't be patented: microphages. The Russians are the experts on this, but the use of microphages is pre-antibiotic technology, so there is a lot known already.
That's cool.

We noticed right away that what we bought in the pharmacies in Russia (on the advice mainly of a doctor-friend and the doctor at the kids' preschool) was not antibiotics. You can get antibiotics there, but they tend to be really hard to find outside of hospital pharmacies, and the one time we went to buy some, the pharmacist grilled us about why we needed it and maybe there were better drugs to do the job and so on.

And what's more, the non-antibiotics work great. Andi used to get reoccurring sinus infections in the States, and each time would have to get put on stronger and stronger doses of I-forget-which antibiotic. Only to have the infection crop up again six months or so later. The stuff we used in Russia killed the sinus infection off solid after a single course. We also used it (and some also non-antibiotic eardrops) to knock out the ear infection that each kid managed to develop once while we were over there. We brought a stockpile of the stuff back with us, of course.

What's more -- and this may be more lifestyle-related than medicine-related -- our incidence of bacterial infections over there was a lot lower than it had been (or than it has been since returning) in the States. I caught a couple of nasty flu bugs, but there just doesn't seem to be the prevalence of non-viral infection outside the antibiotic-saturated American bubble.

For whatever that's worth...
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc ętre dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant ŕ moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce ętre dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#1902 at 11-09-2010 02:49 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Ezra has an interesting piece -

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezr...alth-care.html

Why repealing the health-care law will be difficult in two charts
based on these poll findings -





and concludes -

....Everything from the subsidies to the increase in the Medicare tax is popular. The individual mandate isn't, and you might see the GOP focus on that, but tweaking the penalty there is a far cry from full repeal. Eventually, the GOP is going to stop being on the side of health-care repeal and find themselves on the side of allowing insurers to discriminate against the sick and seniors to fall into the doughnut hole, just as Democrats eventually found themselves on the side of the Cornhusker Kickback and $500 billion in Medicare cuts rather than health-care reform.

What will happen, David Frum predicts, is that the GOP will focus on the bill's unpopular elements but blink when it comes to repealing the legislation itself. "Republicans may gain political benefit," he writes, "but Democrats get the policy. In this exchange, it is the Democrats who gain the better end of the deal. Congressional majorities come and go. Entitlement programs last forever."
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#1903 at 11-09-2010 03:30 PM by The Rani [at joined Feb 2002 #posts 333]
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Quote Originally Posted by Justin '77 View Post
What's more -- and this may be more lifestyle-related than medicine-related -- our incidence of bacterial infections over there was a lot lower than it had been (or than it has been since returning) in the States. I caught a couple of nasty flu bugs, but there just doesn't seem to be the prevalence of non-viral infection outside the antibiotic-saturated American bubble.

For whatever that's worth...
Maybe it's just so fucking cold there that the germs die in mid-sneeze.







Post#1904 at 11-09-2010 04:10 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
Maybe it's just so fucking cold there that the germs die in mid-sneeze.
Hah!

That's exactly what I groaned to Andi one time from in the grip of a 41-degree fever. That cruel, heartless harpy actually tossed me under a cold shower to bring my temp down with the threat that if that didn't work, the next step was going to be enrolling me in a hospital. The flu there is nasty.

But realistically, the weather in Peter is almost exactly the same as what they get in Chicago. Temperatures, wind & precip, and all. Being on the edge of the water (even if it comes in bay-shaped-icecube form sometimes) helps moderate things a lot. The biggest difference is the length of days and nights; but I always got sick around the equinox, so that wasn't it, either.
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc ętre dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant ŕ moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce ętre dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#1905 at 11-12-2010 04:20 PM by antichrist [at I'm in the Big City now, boy! joined Sep 2003 #posts 1,655]
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Plus its a completely different ecosystem micro-flora-wise (there's a word for that) than what you all grew up with in SoCal. You may already (likely are if I understand correctly) certain personally-tuned resistant bacteria in your own bodily biome. And THOSE bugs never saw any of the Russian potions in the first 35 years.

Don't know. Could be a possibility.







Post#1906 at 11-12-2010 04:39 PM by The Rani [at joined Feb 2002 #posts 333]
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Quote Originally Posted by antichrist View Post
Plus its a completely different ecosystem micro-flora-wise (there's a word for that) than what you all grew up with in SoCal. You may already (likely are if I understand correctly) certain personally-tuned resistant bacteria in your own bodily biome. And THOSE bugs never saw any of the Russian potions in the first 35 years.

Don't know. Could be a possibility.
Maybe, but with air travel being what it is, bugs fly around the world with relative ease these days.







Post#1907 at 11-12-2010 04:42 PM by Brian Beecher [at Downers Grove, IL joined Sep 2001 #posts 2,937]
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Bedbugs?

Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
Maybe, but with air travel being what it is, bugs fly around the world with relative ease these days.
Are you by any chance referring to the bedbugs which have suddenly resurfaced in droves after being considered damn near extinct for years? Just last night there was a TV segment devoted to them. In all seriousness, I don't expect to see national healthcare in the US for years to come, if ever. There is just too great a sentiment in this country against the idea. Need any more proof than the profound backlash against Obamacare?







Post#1908 at 11-12-2010 04:46 PM by Brian Beecher [at Downers Grove, IL joined Sep 2001 #posts 2,937]
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Sore Thumb

Quote Originally Posted by herbal tee View Post
Think that your health is more important than a used car? Not anymore.



I could have gguessed that the vultures at TENET would have a hand in this.
When I looked at this it stood out like the proverbial sore thumb. A couple of years back a lady I conversed with at a local Chinese restaurant was of the opinion that the best way to stimulate our economy would be to abolish the major credit bureaus, as they have a tendency to keep many of us in near perpetual bondage. Any thoughts on this? If a separrate thread needs to be created to discuss this, anyone on the boards can have at it. When those my age were young, we never even knew that such a thing as a credit score even existed.







Post#1909 at 11-12-2010 04:52 PM by The Rani [at joined Feb 2002 #posts 333]
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Quote Originally Posted by Brian Beecher View Post
Are you by any chance referring to the bedbugs which have suddenly resurfaced in droves after being considered damn near extinct for years?
No, I'm not, but is that really the case or is it just media hype? I don't know anyone who has been affected by that personally.







Post#1910 at 11-12-2010 05:29 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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Quote Originally Posted by antichrist View Post
Plus its a completely different ecosystem micro-flora-wise (there's a word for that) than what you all grew up with in SoCal. You may already (likely are if I understand correctly) certain personally-tuned resistant bacteria in your own bodily biome. And THOSE bugs never saw any of the Russian potions in the first 35 years.

Don't know. Could be a possibility.
Did you just call me a californian?

And anyway, yeah. The different bacteriological ecosystems matter is a very real thing (its the cause of the much-known and dreaded "traveler's shits"). That may well have had something to do with it. I try not to argue with success in areas where I'm otherwise pretty clueless.
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc ętre dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant ŕ moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce ętre dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#1911 at 11-18-2010 03:34 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Holy S!

Wow, a 1T way forward emerges????

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezr...ron_wyden.html

Have Scott Brown and Ron Wyden figured out the way forward on health care?


The GOP’s slogan on health-care reform has, till now, been “repeal and replace.” But they don’t have the votes for either. What they might have the votes for is reform that, maybe, one day, if all goes well, could lead to replacement. And, believe it or not, liberals might be able to get on board with this strategy, too.

This morning, Sens. Ron Wyden (D-Ore.) and Scott Brown (R-Mass.) introduced the “Empowering States to Innovate Act.” The legislation would allow states to develop their own health-care reform proposals that would preempt the federal government’s effort. If a state can think of a plan that covers as many people, with as comprehensive insurance, at as low a cost, without adding to the deficit, the state can get the money the federal government would’ve given it for health-care reform but be freed from the individual mandate, the exchanges, the insurance requirements, the subsidy scheme and pretty much everything else in the bill.

Wyden, with the help of Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.), was able to build a version of this exemption into the original health-care reform bill, but for various reasons, was forced to accept a starting date of 2017 -- three years after the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act goes into effect. The Wyden/Brown legislation would allow states to propose their alternatives now and start implementing them in 2014, rather than wasting time and money setting up a federal structure that they don’t plan to use.


In general, giving the states a freer hand is an approach associated with conservatives. On Wednesday, Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-Utah) sent a letter to the Republican Governors Association advocating exactly that. “The most effective path to sustainable health care reform runs through the states, not Washington,” he wrote. If it’s really the case that the states can do health reform better, Wyden and Brown are giving them a chance to prove it.

One state that wants to prove it is Sanders’s Vermont. “As a single-payer advocate,” he says, “I believe that at the end of the day, if a state goes forward and passes an effective single-payer program, it will demonstrate that you can provide quality health care to every man, woman and child in a more cost effective way. So I wanted to make sure that states have that option.” Vermont’s governor-elect, Peter Shumlin, is on the same page. “Vermont needs a single-payer system,” he said during the campaign.

Single-payer, of course, is even more objectionable to conservatives than the existing health-care law. But that’s the beauty of this option: It allows the liberal states to go their way, the conservative states to go their way, and then lets the country judge the results. If Vermont’s single-payer system provides universal care at a low, low cost, then maybe that nudges California -- which is facing massive budget deficits -- off the fence. After all, if the state spends less than the government sends it, it gets to keep the remainder. It’s a nice incentive for cost control. And if it works, how long will more conservative states wait before they decide to take part in the savings, too?

But conservatives don’t believe that will happen. They think a consumer-directed system will offer higher-quality health care at a lower price, and with more choice. If Tennessee takes that route and outperforms Vermont, it’ll be their system that spreads across the land.
The funny thing about the health-care reform debate is that for all the arguing, everyone says they’re in favor of it. The GOP’s "Pledge to America," for instance, promises that the Republicans will repeal Obama’s health-care law “and put in place real reform.” Shumlin, too, promises Vermonters that he’ll produce “real reform.” The problem is that no one seems able to agree on what real reform is. The beauty of Wyden and Brown’s approach is that the country doesn’t have to choose.


“Real reform,” in their world, is whatever works best to cover everyone at the lowest cost. Utah and California can go their separate ways, and the other states can judge the victor based on results, not ideology.

That an Oregonian and a Bay Stater are behind this legislation is perhaps no surprise: Wyden’s home state of Oregon just reelected John Kitzhaber, a former emergency-room doctor who pioneered a radical set of Medicaid reforms when he served as governor in the late '90s and early Aughts. Brown’s constituents in Massachusetts still overwhelmingly support the system that then-Gov. Mitt Romney signed into law in 2005 -- and that then-state Sen. Scott Brown voted for. “There’ve been a handful of states that’ve tried for some time to break out from the cookie-cutter molds,” says Wyden, and their senators want to protect their innovations.

The Obama administration is cautiously supportive. "The cliche about states as the laboratories of democracy is not just a cliche," CMS director Don Berwick told Wyden at a Finance Committee hearing. "It’s true." The question is whether the rest of Congress will agree. Liberal Democrats might shiver at the thought of conservative reform plans, while conservative Democrats might worry about the possibilities of public options and single payer. Republicans may worry that attempts to reform the health-care law will read to their base as if they’re making peace with it rather than working to repeal it. And both sides will face pressure from various industries involved in the provision of medical services that fear -- and will likely fight -- the prospect of reforms they can’t anticipate, and may not benefit from.

But those who hide from this proposal are fundamentally signaling a lack of faith in their own ideas. What Wyden and Brown are offering is the chance for the various sides to prove that they’re right. If the industry players make the system work better, then the states that prize their involvement will prosper. If conservative solutions are more efficient, that will be clear when their beneficiaries save money. If liberal ideas really work better, it’s time we found out. Forget repeal and replace, or even reform and replace. How about compete and succeed?
I have a feeling, however, the devil will be in the details.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#1912 at 11-18-2010 03:45 PM by Xer H [at Chicago and Indiana joined Dec 2009 #posts 1,212]
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Thank God. I've been asserting forever that healthcare reform needs to be driven back to the States. That what works for New York and California shouldn't be forced on South Dakota or Tennessee. It's about time someone in Washington is finally putting that proposal forward.
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." —Albert Einstein

"The road to perdition has ever been accompanied by lip service to an ideal." —Albert Einstein

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction.” —Albert Einstein







Post#1913 at 11-18-2010 03:56 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by Xer H View Post
Thank God. I've been asserting forever that healthcare reform needs to be driven back to the States. That what works for New York and California shouldn't be forced on South Dakota or Tennessee. It's about time someone in Washington is finally putting that proposal forward.
It was A-wipe Lieberman who nearly killed this last time and was singularily responsible for its initiation being pushed back to 2017.

Never gave any rational reason why - like his killing the pubic option. It was just a fricken ego thing.

F'in Joe is probable the best argument against having the filibuster.

If he does it this time,....

Also, the big insurers are going to be against this. They lose the big blue states, like CA and NY, and get Utah???

It will be fun watching the free-staters cover up their masters' strings on this one.
Last edited by playwrite; 11-18-2010 at 03:58 PM.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#1914 at 11-18-2010 05:07 PM by Xer H [at Chicago and Indiana joined Dec 2009 #posts 1,212]
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I can see that, given the number and size of insurers in Lieberman's state.

I'm all for it. It will be much more competitive, cheaper, and "right-sized" to the needs of the population. That makes it more sustainable.
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." —Albert Einstein

"The road to perdition has ever been accompanied by lip service to an ideal." —Albert Einstein

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction.” —Albert Einstein







Post#1915 at 11-18-2010 05:29 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
It was A-wipe Lieberman who nearly killed this last time and was singularily responsible for its initiation being pushed back to 2017.

Never gave any rational reason why - like his killing the pubic option. It was just a fricken ego thing.

F'in Joe is probable the best argument against having the filibuster.

If he does it this time,....

Also, the big insurers are going to be against this. They lose the big blue states, like CA and NY, and get Utah???

It will be fun watching the free-staters cover up their masters' strings on this one.
I swear I remember reading that Lieberman's wife is involved with the health insurance companies.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#1916 at 11-18-2010 05:37 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by Xer H View Post
I can see that, given the number and size of insurers in Lieberman's state.

I'm all for it. It will be much more competitive, cheaper, and "right-sized" to the needs of the population. That makes it more sustainable.
I'm also now thinking the small states will hate this - the smart red ones right away (and opposing it) and the dumb ones possible waking up to something called "risk pools."

Essentially, many small states won't have the pool of people to sustain a system, whether private or public. This will be particularly true of states that have a higher proportion of older folks and lower proportions of young follks And very problmatic for those states that let the younger folks skirt the system until and unless they get sick or in an accident.

Rather than a mandate, some states may approach the problem by allowing an 'opt-out' with the understaniding if you want to opt back in later, there is a waiting period and you have to pay premiums retrospectively. This essentially will accomplish what the mandate was trying to solve, but it will be more accepted as an individual risk and less media (i.e. Faux News) coverage as a state rather than an evil socialist national issue. As the horror stories increase, the smart youth will see the light and begin opting in early; the others? well, that is what Darwin's Theory is all about.

One can see how this will hasten the path to a national public option or even single payer. The mega blue states forming a viable public system that surrounding states will likely join to form a regional system to provide greater efficencies. For example the Western third of the nation anchored on CA but excluding red states like UT. Then some of those red state systems collapse for the reason stated above, and clamor to get into the regional systems. We will likely go to just several mega-regional systems with a few state hold outs. The hold outs may try some regionalization amongst themselves around their private sector philosophy, but these will likely collapse as private insurers begin to opt out due to the lack of profitability - i.e., small risk pools.

Another thought is those states holding to the old private sector approach will become increasingly non-competitive for business locaton due to the high-cost employer pays system - that will bring enormous pressure for not only a viable system but a public one. I could see TX in particularly getting hammered on this.

This is an existential threat to the insurers. They'll try to nuke it early. Let's see who carries their water and if they don't get Scott Brown turned around on the issue quickly.

If Brown-Wyden-Sanders do succeed in getting this up and running, within 5 or 7 years, people will look back and wonder what all the reform fuss was about.

What will be really cool is when Palin's Alaska asks for approval to merge with Russia's system.
Last edited by playwrite; 11-18-2010 at 05:46 PM.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#1917 at 11-18-2010 06:41 PM by Xer H [at Chicago and Indiana joined Dec 2009 #posts 1,212]
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You have a lot of "what ifs" in there that may or may not actually happen. Don't get too far ahead of yourself in your desire for everyone to do what you think needs to be done.
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." —Albert Einstein

"The road to perdition has ever been accompanied by lip service to an ideal." —Albert Einstein

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction.” —Albert Einstein







Post#1918 at 11-18-2010 08:07 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Here's a little history and insight. I apparently wrongly blamed Lieberman this time. Apologies. However, he's still an A-wipe for killing the public option.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezr...rmont_sta.html

Sen. Bernie Sanders: 'Vermont stands a chance to be the first state in the nation to pass single-payer'


Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) has long supported state waivers in the health-care bill, and for a very specific reason: He'd like to see Vermont create the first single-payer system in the nation, as he believes it'll demonstrate enough cost and quality advantages that other states will want to follow suit. We spoke by phone last night, and a lightly edited transcript of our conversation follows.


Ezra Klein: You worked hard on getting the original version of the state waiver into the legislation. Why? Liberals aren’t usually associated with federalist approaches.

Bernie Sanders: As a single-payer advocate, I believe that at the end of the day, if a state goes forward and passed an effective single-payer program, it will demonstrate that you can provide quality health care to every man, woman and child in a more cost-effective way. So we wanted to make sure that states have that option, we wanted it to be available when the bill gets implemented in 2014. But we ran into the most insane objections from the Congressional Budget Office.

Is that why it got pushed back to 2017?

Our argument was we don’t want any more money from the federal government. When the bill is implemented, let the states use the money the federal government would already be paying to implement single-payer. The CBO came up with one of the weirder counterarguments we’ve ever heard. The CBO said we think the states are smarter than the federal government and they’ll outmaneuver the feds to get more money. So we were forced by the CBO -- not by anybody in the Congress -- to push it back to 2017. And I agreed to that very reluctantly.

So what happens if Scott Brown and Ron Wyden get their way and the waiver moves up to 2014? Will Vermont use it?

We believe Vermont stands a chance to be the first state in the nation to pass single-payer. The governor-elect campaigned on it, and we have support in the House and Senate. We’re not asking for one nickel more than we’d otherwise get. The other thing we think we have an opportunity to do is reach out to our conservative friends and say, hey, Vermont wants to go forward with a single-payer system, and Mississippi and Alabama don’t, but maybe they have other ideas. Now, we’re conscious of the need to make sure that the health-care reform bill’s standards aren’t diminished. So everyone needs to provide the same quality of health care as the bill provides and at the same, or lower, price. But if they can do that, then they should be able to go for it.

And then the various models can compete with one another and, presumably, spread to other states if successful?

Absolutely. And that’s what we wanted from it. In my state, it’ll be single-payer. In California, I think there’s a chance it could be single-payer. In other states, it will be something else. This makes the states laboratories for the system, and then other states can copy them. Now, you need a minimum level for coverage and quality. You can’t go lower than health-care reform.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#1919 at 11-18-2010 08:15 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by Xer H View Post
You have a lot of "what ifs" in there that may or may not actually happen. Don't get too far ahead of yourself in your desire for everyone to do what you think needs to be done.
Well, excuusseee me!!!!

No, seriously, you're right. It's just that this IS really exciting. But given what happened to HCR, your advice is wise for my sanity. Thanks!

But damn, it would be fun to see the Red states hoisted on their on petards!
Whoops, doing it again.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#1920 at 11-18-2010 09:05 PM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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11-18-2010, 09:05 PM #1920
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Quote Originally Posted by herbal tee View Post
Think that your health is more important than a used car? Not anymore.



I could have guessed that the vultures at TENET would have a hand in this.
When medical triage depends upon money, then medical ethics becomes almost as much an oxymoron as "Mafia ethics".

When Charles Dickens and Bertholt Brecht are no longer historical curiosities but again have contemporary relevance, then something is very wrong. Is Harriet Beecher Stowe next to get such relevance? God help us if such is so.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#1921 at 11-19-2010 01:01 AM by Xer H [at Chicago and Indiana joined Dec 2009 #posts 1,212]
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11-19-2010, 01:01 AM #1921
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Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
Well, excuusseee me!!!!

No, seriously, you're right. It's just that this IS really exciting. But given what happened to HCR, your advice is wise for my sanity. Thanks!

But damn, it would be fun to see the Red states hoisted on their on petards!
Whoops, doing it again.

LOL... no worries, my friend.
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." —Albert Einstein

"The road to perdition has ever been accompanied by lip service to an ideal." —Albert Einstein

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction.” —Albert Einstein







Post#1922 at 11-19-2010 01:18 PM by The Wonkette [at Arlington, VA 1956 joined Jul 2002 #posts 9,209]
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Guess Who's Opposed to Repealing HCR?

I heard on National Public Radio that insurance companies are fighting GOP proposals to repeal the health care legislation (what I call "Romney Care"). It turns out that they like having a new pool of customers coming on board.

FWIW.
I want people to know that peace is possible even in this stupid day and age. Prem Rawat, June 8, 2008







Post#1923 at 12-01-2010 05:12 PM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
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12-01-2010, 05:12 PM #1923
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Quote Originally Posted by The Wonkette View Post
I heard on National Public Radio that insurance companies are fighting GOP proposals to repeal the health care legislation (what I call "Romney Care"). It turns out that they like having a new pool of customers coming on board.

FWIW.
You have uncovered the exact reason that we the people got royally screwed by the so called health reform.
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#1924 at 12-01-2010 05:14 PM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
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12-01-2010, 05:14 PM #1924
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Requiring Medicare beneficiaries to pay more?

Deficit panel's Rx is wrong medicine: doctors' group
Requiring Medicare beneficiaries to pay more for their care will fail to control skyrocketing health costs but instead lead to worse health outcomes and increased poverty
Only an improved Medicare for All can rein in costs and provide quality, universal care, says Physicians for a National Health Program

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Dec. 1, 2010

Contact:
Margaret Flowers, M.D.
Garrett Adams, M.D., M.P.H.
Quentin Young, M.D.
Mark Almberg, PNHP, (312) 782-6006, mark@pnhp.org

Proposed changes to Medicare unveiled by the co-chairs of the Deficit Commission, including their proposal to increase out-of-pocket payments by Medicare beneficiaries, won’t control health costs but will hurt patients and should be rejected, a national physicians’ group said today. The only effective way to rein in costs is through an improved Medicare-for-All program, they said.

“The co-chairmen’s plan to impose increased cost-sharing on Medicare beneficiaries is the wrong medicine,” said Dr. Margaret Flowers, congressional fellow for the 18,000-member Physicians for a National Health Program.

“Seniors and people with disabilities in the Medicare program already face substantial financial barriers to care in the form of existing co-payments and deductibles,” she said. “For example, recent research shows the 25 percent of Medicare beneficiaries with the highest spending spend at least 30 percent of their income on health care.

“Raising these financial barriers still further with increased deductibles and co-insurance costs will result in seniors delaying or forgoing doctor visits and other needed care, while increasing the incidence of costly hospitalizations. Greater out-of-pocket expenses will also increase the economic hardship faced by their families.”

“Medicare is not the cause of rising health care costs but its victim,” she said. “The real culprit for skyrocketing costs is our irrational, fragmented, market-based model of paying for health care, which chiefly benefits the private health insurance industry and Big Pharma, not patients or physicians. The commission co-chairs are silent on this matter.”

For the entire report:
http://pnhp.org/news/2010/december/d...-doctors-group
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#1925 at 12-15-2010 01:28 PM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
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The mandate was created by conservatives

And, ironically, it may be that their plans to sabotage the mandate, could ultimately take us to an 'Improved Medicare For All.' Funny how our plans to deceive can backfire. Happens more often than not.

From: Don McCanne <don@mccanne.org>
Subject: qotd: Ezra Klein on the constitutional single payer path


The Washington Post
December 14, 2010
Health reform advocates have little to fear from judge's ruling
By Washington Post Staff Writer (Ezra Klein, per Wonkbook)

U.S. District Judge Henry E. Hudson, a George W. Bush appointee (and
part-owner of a Republican campaign-consulting firm that fought the
health-care overhaul legislation), has, as expected, ruled the individual
mandate unconstitutional. So why are reform advocates so unexpectedly
pleased?

The individual mandate began life as a Republican idea. Its earliest
appearances in legislation were in the Republican alternatives to the
Clinton health-care bill, where it was co-sponsored by such GOP stalwarts as
Bob Dole, Orrin G. Hatch and Charles E. Grassley. Later on, it was the
centerpiece of then-Gov. Mitt Romney's health-reform plan in Massachusetts,
and then it was included in the Wyden-Bennett bill, which many Republicans
signed on to.

It was only when the individual mandate appeared in President Obama's
legislation that it became so polarizing on the right. The political logic
was clear enough: The individual mandate was the most unpopular piece of the
bill (you might remember that Obama's 2008 campaign plan omitted it, and he
frequently attacked Hillary Clinton for endorsing it in her proposal). But
as a policy choice, it might prove disastrous.

The individual mandate was created by conservatives who realized that it was
the only way to get universal coverage into the private market. Otherwise,
insurers turn away the sick, public anger rises, and, eventually, you get
some kind of government-run, single-payer system, much as they did in
Europe, and much as we have with Medicare.

If Republicans succeed in taking it off the table, they may sign the death
warrant for private insurers in America: Eventually, rising cost pressures
will force more aggressive reforms than even Obama has proposed, and if
conservative judges have made the private market unfixable by removing the
most effective way to deal with adverse selection problems, the only
alternative will be the very constitutional, but decidedly non-conservative,
single-payer path.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...121305475.html

Ezra Klein's Wonkbook:
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezr..._wit.html#more


Comment: It would be gratifying poetic irony if conservative legislators
and conservative judges pushed us into single payer reform by either
repealing or ruling unconstitutional the individual mandate.

As I said on KPFA/KPFK yesterday, "Nobody is going to argue that Medicare is
unconstitutional.. We should fix it so it works better and then provide it
to everyone."
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a
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