I agree that everyone should have a certain amount of guaranteed care. But what you are saying seems to suggest that some people shouldn't be able to use their money, their property, to buy more health care than the minimum amount guaranteed. And I disagree with that one.Originally Posted by Odin
There is only so much resources to go around, time and energy spent on Mr. Money could be better spent on some poor guy with more severe health issues.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.
-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism
You need to also look at where the health care costs originate. Most of the costs are not from the insurance companies.
Only if you believe that everyone should have equally bad health care and no way out of it. Socialism does not work because of the Socialist Calculation Problem which no one here has an answer for. The short answer is that without profit and loss it is impossible make any kind of sensible economic calculation which is why government programs always seem to have such awful unintended consequences. Why do you think the Warsaw Pact collapsed? It was because of a misallocation of resources on a scale never before seen in history.
Could it be government interference that is causing the problem? I suspect that like most socialists you have never actually considered that to be a possibility. You also haven't considered that because individuals have different talents and abilities that any attempt to create the egalitarian paradise you desire would result in a totalitarian society.
If one rejects laissez faire on account of mans fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action.
- Ludwig von Mises
Beware of altruism. It is based on self-deception, the root of all evil.
- Lazarus Long
YAWN, did you parrot that word-for-word from Mises and Hayek? *rolls eyes* Such arguments make perfect sense for things that have a very responsive supply-demand curve (I can't remember the technical term off the top of my head), but healthcare does not work that way, people NEED healthcare the cost be damned which makes price-gouging by private entities very easy. The demand curve for healthcare is almost vertical, it does not respond to prices very much.
The right seems to assume that because we do not follow their dogmas that we must be economic ignoramuses, which is BS.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.
-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism
Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. declared: "Of all the forms of inequality, injustice in health care is the most shocking and inhumane."
I hear and read the word socialism as a word thrown around like kids throwing sand at one another in the sandbox. It is an attempt to discount a caring and compassionate way of living that calls us to care for one another. Social uplift is a sign of great strength. And we are not showing much strength in the US in how we provide health care. I don't consider 18,000 American citizens who die every year from the lack of medical treatment as living in a strong society.
In a Commonwealth Fund-supported study comparing "preventable deaths" in 19 industrialized countries, researchers found that the United States placed last. Those statistics say volumes about how we care for one another here in the US when it comes to our health care system.
http://www.opednews.com/articles/Hea...10313-363.html[B]Health Care is a Basic Human Right -- Almost Everywhere but Here[/B
]By Ronald Pies, M.D.
Far from having "the best health care system in the world" -- as some politicians persistently claim -- our system is failing in the most basic measures of medical care.
Our failures in health care are not for lack of spending. As Victor Fuchs, Ph.D., of Stanford University recently noted in the New England Journal of Medicine (Dec. 2, 2010), the U.S. government currently spends more per capita for health care than eight European countries spend from all sources on health care. And yet, life expectancy at birth in every one of these eight countries is higher than that in the U.S. The huge amount of money spent on administrative costs in the U.S. -- rather than on direct care -- is a major factor in these cross-national disparities.
"Sooner rather than later, our nation will have to adopt a single-payer national health insurance program, an improved Medicare for all. Only a single-payer plan can assure truly universal, comprehensive and affordable care to all. By replacing the private insurers with a streamlined system of public financing, our nation could save $400 billion annually in unnecessary, wasteful administrative costs. That's enough to cover all the uninsured and to upgrade everyone else's coverage without having to increase overall U.S. health spending by one penny."
That said, the core issue underlying the plight of American health care is not economic, but moral: rather than regarding health care as a basic right, the U.S. sees it as a privilege -- one available only to those who can afford it, or who are fortunate enough to have adequate insurance coverage. This view flies in the face of many religious teachings and traditions. Thus, Rabbi Elliot Dorff, a pre-eminent authority on Jewish medical ethics has written:
As physician and anthropologist Dr. Paul Farmer has said: "I can't show you how, exactly, health care is a basic human right. But what I can argue is that no one should have to die of a disease that is treatable." It is time for the U.S. to embrace Dr. Farmer's view, and to enact a health care policy worthy of this country's highest moral principles.
Ronald Pies, M.D., is professor of psychiatry and lecturer on bioethics at SUNY Upstate Medical University, Syracuse, N.Y., and clinical professor of psychiatry at Tufts University School of Medicine in Boston. He is the author of several textbooks, a short story collection, a collection of poems and books on philosophy and ethics.
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Last edited by Deb C; 03-17-2011 at 09:58 AM.
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a
If someone or something else is paying, then the bill gets ignored. That even tends to be true when there are copays.
I have virtually no faith in the math skills of the average American. They squeal about taxes that don't hurt them, and ignore privately imposed costs many times larger.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.
30% of every healthcare dollar is dedicated to the need to file insurance claims. The insurance companies don't get it all, but they create the costs to you and me.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.
Health care travel is not restricted to the rich. In fact, India has a low-cost surgical industry going ... as I'm sure you already know. So do many eastern European countries.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.
Is this different in any way from similar activities in this country? How often do you see a fund raiser to get care for a child?
There is also something fishy about a case where others are getting the drug but Wilson doesn't. His friends get it for him, and then he dies almost immediately. This sounds like a case that should have been referred to hospice, but the protagonist wasn't ready. We do this in this country as standard practice. It's a large part of the excessive cost of healthcare. If over 25% of HC costs accrue in the last months of life, then what is gained by anyone?
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.
Assuming that we can't know how many patients get poor treatment here there or anywhere, let's agree that the only measures we can access do not point to the US as a good medical model. We pay too much, we have less than stellar results and shortened lives in comparison to other nations of similar wealth. The country that does best seems to be France. Results are better and costs are lower.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.
But is that a function of a better healthcare system, or a better lifestyle/diet/culture? Or are you speaking only of health system-related costs and outcomes?
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." —Albert Einstein
"The road to perdition has ever been accompanied by lip service to an ideal." —Albert Einstein
"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction.” —Albert Einstein
The French smoke like chimneys, drink like fish, and eat fatty foods. They exercise more and are not typically obese. In other words, there is no differentiator here, unless it's wine v. every-other-booze.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.
So the exercise and lack of obesity has nothing to do with it?
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." —Albert Einstein
"The road to perdition has ever been accompanied by lip service to an ideal." —Albert Einstein
"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction.” —Albert Einstein
I was being sarcastic. If anything the cigarettes should be the determining factor ... but they aren't. If I have to guess, the lower stress levels that a reliable social-welfare system makes possible are probably more important. They are free to strike or take a day off and not worry about it. How about you?
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.
Odin, you know there were socialist economists such as Robert Heilbroner that admitted after the Warsaw pact collapsed that Mises was right for the reasons that I have outlined. Any program not subject to the discipline of markets will always suffer from perverse incentives and misallocation of resources which have been well known for a very long time. My objections stem from economic effects that in some cases were understood by Adam Smith over two centuries ago. Not to mention all of the failures of socialist systems over the twentieth century.
Equality has always been an obsession of socialist since the days of Marx and the truth is that you would reduce everyone to poverty in a well intended but misguided attempt to create a perfectly egalitarian society.
If one rejects laissez faire on account of mans fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action.
- Ludwig von Mises
Beware of altruism. It is based on self-deception, the root of all evil.
- Lazarus Long
I do it all the time. Highly recommend it.
The Nordic Nations seem to be doing quite well with their social and equitable system.
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a
Did you even understand what I was getting at in my post? Mises' arguments are perfectly valid when the demand for something is elastic, but healthcare has an inelastic demand curve. Vital goods and services that have inelastic demand do not respond to market price signaling and will have issues with "perverse incentives and misallocation of resources" no matter what.
Those who think that the Free Market can do no wrong are just as foolish as those who support command economies.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.
-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism
OK, then explain China. Here, we have the results of a planned economy (5-year plans to this very day) and the place is booming. Here's a hint, theory rarely comports well with reality unless it's based on empiricism in the first place. I doubt you can find an empirical thread to anything written by either Hayek or Mises.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.
... and the same holds true for any misguided attempt to have a perfect free market. That's why in the modern world none has ever existed to this day. Any one who tells you otherwise is trying to sell you something.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service
“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke
"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman
If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite
Actually what China did was increase economic liberty dramatically compared to what was going on before especially during Mao, in short they are not doing nearly the central planning they used to do. I have found Mises and Hayek very useful for figuring out the effects of monetary policy on my investments. This has worked out very nicely for me. By the way there are indications that the Chinese in a bubble now. Please remember that it is during the boom phase that the malinvestment occurs followed by a depression which is where the debt and malinvestment are unwound.
Here is what a guy from Finland says about the subject, it would seem that they are suffering from the same sort of fiscal problems almost everyone else is. Please take note of the perverse incentives that abound in such a system.
There is one more argument against a further takeover of the health care system by the government and that is that fact that both the Feds and states are currently broke. Yes, I already know your answer this: Tax someone into oblivion! The universal solution of the socialist.
If one rejects laissez faire on account of mans fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action.
- Ludwig von Mises
Beware of altruism. It is based on self-deception, the root of all evil.
- Lazarus Long
The Chinese are benefiting, if that's the correct phrase, from the government allowing foreign companies to enter, mandating Chinese majority ownership of any and all operations within the country, and providing capital and a depressed currency to make it all work. I find that highly interventionist ... but that's just me.
Well, we are either going to have a healthcare system or we're not. If we are, then it will have to be funded. I suggest that we provide that funding in the least costly way: single payer. We can argue about the ownership of hospitals and other healthcare institutions, but the checkbook needs to be in a single hand.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.
Yes, it is. You are forgetting how restrictive the Chinese government was before they decided to let people go into business for themselves. Economic stimulus always ends in a depression of some sort. Consider how long it took the US to get where it is after 1913 when the Federal Reserve system was created.
Given that the government has done such a wonderful job of managing its finances it is pretty clear that any system they manage would be manged badly as usual. It has long been known in economics that the least efficient way to spend money is to have a third party do it. Single payer will have the same problems we are experiencing now for that reason. The checkbook needs to be in the patients hand where they can decide the most cost effective form of treatment.
If one rejects laissez faire on account of mans fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action.
- Ludwig von Mises
Beware of altruism. It is based on self-deception, the root of all evil.
- Lazarus Long
A free market is not utopia but it is better than everything else.... and the same holds true for any misguided attempt to have a perfect free market. That's why in the modern world none has ever existed to this day. Any one who tells you otherwise is trying to sell you something.
If one rejects laissez faire on account of mans fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action.
- Ludwig von Mises
Beware of altruism. It is based on self-deception, the root of all evil.
- Lazarus Long
