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Thread: It's time for national healthcare - Page 116







Post#2876 at 09-24-2011 03:25 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by Wallace 88 View Post
So why are posting?
Hoping you grow up.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#2877 at 09-25-2011 10:18 AM by The Wonkette [at Arlington, VA 1956 joined Jul 2002 #posts 9,209]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
A late adolescent who has probably just read Atlas Shrugged and feels "enlightened", ROFL.
Since it is 2011, according to my math, someone born in 1988 would be 23 now, or possibly 22 if his birthday was in October, November, or December.

Peace.
I want people to know that peace is possible even in this stupid day and age. Prem Rawat, June 8, 2008







Post#2878 at 09-25-2011 10:21 AM by The Wonkette [at Arlington, VA 1956 joined Jul 2002 #posts 9,209]
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Quote Originally Posted by Wallace 88 View Post
Wonkette,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Di...Taxes_2000.JPG

Those in the top 10% pay about 25% of their total yearly income in taxes, the fourth quintile pay about 20%, the thrid quintile pay about 17%, but the average is about 21%.

The lowest quintile pay about 5% of their income in taxes, which is less than the FICA payroll taxes I pay, I think (7%?).
Yes, that's the beauty of a progressive tax system. Those with higher incomes should pay a higher proportion of their income in taxes, because a higher proportion of their income is disposable and not required to fulfill basic needs.

My income is in the top quintile. Even after paying a higher tax rate, I can afford to buy fresh fruit and seafood in the grocery store, shop for new clothes, take a couple of vacations each year, eat out in decent restaurants every week, and I will be able to send my daughter to a 4-year college. I don't begrudge giving more of my money to local and state governments and the Federal government for public goods and services than someone who is struggling to pay their rent.

I grew up with advantages. My Silent parents both came from working class backgrounds and were able to propel themselves into the upper middle class by working their way through an elite college. That is much harder to do today. They were able to fund my master's degree, which has enabled me to earn a comfortable professional salary. I realize that most people have a much harder row to hoe.
Last edited by The Wonkette; 09-25-2011 at 10:33 AM.
I want people to know that peace is possible even in this stupid day and age. Prem Rawat, June 8, 2008







Post#2879 at 09-25-2011 11:08 AM by annla899 [at joined Sep 2008 #posts 2,860]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Wonkette View Post
Yes, that's the beauty of a progressive tax system. Those with higher incomes should pay a higher proportion of their income in taxes, because a higher proportion of their income is disposable and not required to fulfill basic needs.

My income is in the top quintile. Even after paying a higher tax rate, I can afford to buy fresh fruit and seafood in the grocery store, shop for new clothes, take a couple of vacations each year, eat out in decent restaurants every week, and I will be able to send my daughter to a 4-year college. I don't begrudge giving more of my money to local and state governments and the Federal government for public goods and services than someone who is struggling to pay their rent.

I grew up with advantages. My Silent parents both came from working class backgrounds and were able to propel themselves into the upper middle class by working their way through an elite college. That is much harder to do today. They were able to fund my master's degree, which has enabled me to earn a comfortable professional salary. I realize that most people have a much harder row to hoe.
If we had a "like" button I would like this post many times.







Post#2880 at 09-25-2011 11:12 AM by Chas'88 [at In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky joined Nov 2008 #posts 9,432]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Wonkette View Post
Since it is 2011, according to my math, someone born in 1988 would be 23 now, or possibly 22 if his birthday was in October, November, or December.

Peace.
With 24 to come in the following year.

~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."







Post#2881 at 09-25-2011 11:31 AM by Wes84 [at joined Jun 2009 #posts 856]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Wonkette View Post
Since it is 2011, according to my math, someone born in 1988 would be 23 now, or possibly 22 if his birthday was in October, November, or December.

Peace.
Odin may have misspoke about the age, but I think he is right about the "enlightened" thing.
Generation: Millennial (Gen Y)







Post#2882 at 09-25-2011 05:15 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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Quote Originally Posted by Wallace 88 View Post
True, but that's the fault of an unfree and encumbered society, not the free market...
Who cares about 'who is at fault'? The fact that the status quo of wealth distribution is a direct result of wrongs is more than sufficient to support the basic claim that the distribution itself is a wrong.

Getting to the free and unencumbered society is significantly more than just taking the hands off the scales where they sit now. Where we are now is not, nor can it possibly lead to, a free and unencumbered society.

As for the practical issue of who exactly got what what as a result of free unencumbered effort and who took advantage of taxpayers or governement regulations, I guess you give people the benefit of the doubt unless proven otherwise. Otherwise, it gets silly. We'd need to form the Federal Bureau of Ancestor Exploitiation.
Rothbard answered your strawman (and you do recognize it as a strawman, I hope?) quite well. Given the fact that the existing distribution of wealth is fundamentally based in wrongs committed, the only move that could even begin to approximate justice is to wipe the entire slate as clean as possible and start anew from first principles -- in the case of property, that'd be homesteading. First title to homes would go to the people occupying them; factories to the people working them. And so forth. That's what benefit-of-the-doubt looks like.
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#2883 at 09-26-2011 12:25 PM by Wallace 88 [at joined Dec 2010 #posts 1,232]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
A late adolescent who has probably just read Atlas Shrugged and feels "enlightened", ROFL.
This is coming from someone (you, Odin) who sounds like he just swallowed and regurgitated Howard Zinn, and to someone (Playwrite) with the mania of a born again jesus freak.







Post#2884 at 09-26-2011 12:27 PM by Wallace 88 [at joined Dec 2010 #posts 1,232]
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Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
Hoping you grow up.
By believing in your perpetual motion machine.

Give me that old time religion!
Give me that old time religion!
Give me that old time religion!
It's old enough for thee!







Post#2885 at 09-26-2011 12:31 PM by Wallace 88 [at joined Dec 2010 #posts 1,232]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Wonkette View Post
Yes, that's the beauty of a progressive tax system. Those with higher incomes should pay a higher proportion of their income in taxes, because a higher proportion of their income is disposable and not required to fulfill basic needs.

My income is in the top quintile. Even after paying a higher tax rate, I can afford to buy fresh fruit and seafood in the grocery store, shop for new clothes, take a couple of vacations each year, eat out in decent restaurants every week, and I will be able to send my daughter to a 4-year college. I don't begrudge giving more of my money to local and state governments and the Federal government for public goods and services than someone who is struggling to pay their rent.

I grew up with advantages. My Silent parents both came from working class backgrounds and were able to propel themselves into the upper middle class by working their way through an elite college. That is much harder to do today. They were able to fund my master's degree, which has enabled me to earn a comfortable professional salary. I realize that most people have a much harder row to hoe.
Accrding to your 'about me" section, you could asuage your guilt at your synagoge.

We've just come back to "Socrates'" religion = policy.







Post#2886 at 09-26-2011 12:34 PM by Wallace 88 [at joined Dec 2010 #posts 1,232]
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Quote Originally Posted by Justin '77 View Post
Who cares about 'who is at fault'? The fact that the status quo of wealth distribution is a direct result of wrongs is more than sufficient to support the basic claim that the distribution itself is a wrong.

Getting to the free and unencumbered society is significantly more than just taking the hands off the scales where they sit now. Where we are now is not, nor can it possibly lead to, a free and unencumbered society.

Rothbard answered your strawman (and you do recognize it as a strawman, I hope?) quite well. Given the fact that the existing distribution of wealth is fundamentally based in wrongs committed, the only move that could even begin to approximate justice is to wipe the entire slate as clean as possible and start anew from first principles -- in the case of property, that'd be homesteading. First title to homes would go to the people occupying them; factories to the people working them. And so forth. That's what benefit-of-the-doubt looks like.
Since you have a plan, it looks like you're willing to decide "who's at fault."

AS for Rothbard, that's nonsense. If I borrow your car, do I get to keep it?







Post#2887 at 09-26-2011 01:32 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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Quote Originally Posted by Wallace 88 View Post
This is coming from someone (you, Odin) who sounds like he just swallowed and regurgitated Howard Zinn, and to someone (Playwrite) with the mania of a born again jesus freak.
I had my wacko phase in high School.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#2888 at 09-26-2011 01:35 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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Quote Originally Posted by Wallace 88 View Post
Since you have a plan, it looks like you're willing to decide "who's at fault."

AS for Rothbard, that's nonsense. If I borrow your car, do I get to keep it?
I'm not a fan of Rothbard (he's a Libertarian, I'm a Socialist), But I think Rothbard meant that people being "absentee landlords" should not be allowed. If you own property you should be living or working there.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#2889 at 09-26-2011 03:14 PM by The Wonkette [at Arlington, VA 1956 joined Jul 2002 #posts 9,209]
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Quote Originally Posted by Wallace 88 View Post
According to your 'about me" section, you could asuage your guilt at your synagoge.
I don't need to assuage any guilt about that at the synagogue (like anyone else, there's tons of other stuff I need to ask forgiveness for). All I need to do is pay my taxes and be glad I'm in a position to do so.

Of course, I do volunteer, too.
Last edited by The Wonkette; 09-26-2011 at 03:16 PM.
I want people to know that peace is possible even in this stupid day and age. Prem Rawat, June 8, 2008







Post#2890 at 09-26-2011 03:45 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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Quote Originally Posted by Wallace 88 View Post
Since you have a plan, it looks like you're willing to decide "who's at fault."
Not at all. I leave that up to whoever is closest to the issue -- since they're the ones who are in position to know best.
That's like the opposite of a plan.

As for Rothbard, that's nonsense. If I borrow your car, do I get to keep it?
Nonsense indeed. If you have title to the car thanks to the fact that you are close to graft, then the car is unowned, from the standpoint of justice -- you're a thief, and you came to the title unjustly. If I've been driving a car that is unowned, I've at least got the claim of title-based-on-first-usage.

Surely you recognize that if you have a just title to the car, that would mean that it isn't unowned, and that no later user could claim first-usage? And that both Rothbard, and we in this conversation here, are talking purely about property lacking just title? And not about all property everywhere? Those are distinctly different things....
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#2891 at 09-26-2011 04:30 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Regarding Wally

Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
I had my wacko phase in high School.
My money's on him still being there.

From my time, I would say certainly not "Wally" but the Eddie Haskell type -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWnD6...eature=related

but probable sees himself as a clever Bart Simpson.

I think Haymarket's old sign-off is relevant -

There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.

Wally is just barely bright enough, however, to know who not to seriously engage with.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#2892 at 09-29-2011 01:20 PM by Wallace 88 [at joined Dec 2010 #posts 1,232]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
I had my wacko phase in high School.
Is that when you read Howard Zinn? I'd say that phase is still ongoing.







Post#2893 at 09-29-2011 01:25 PM by Wallace 88 [at joined Dec 2010 #posts 1,232]
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Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
My money's on him still being there.

From my time, I would say certainly not "Wally" but the Eddie Haskell type -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWnD6...eature=related

but probable sees himself as a clever Bart Simpson.

I think Haymarket's old sign-off is relevant -

Wally is just barely bright enough, however, to know who not to seriously engage with.
This from you, who's answer to everything from world hunger to bad acting is MMT?

That's funny.

Give me that MMT religion!
Give me that MMT religion!
Give me that MMT religion!
It's good enough for me!







Post#2894 at 09-30-2011 04:22 PM by Brian Rush [at California joined Jul 2001 #posts 12,392]
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Well, in a break from the silly name-calling and other off-topic foolishness, here's a nice little bit of news on the national healthcare front:

http://www.greatfallstribune.com/art...urance-program

HELENA — Gov. Brian Schweitzer said Wednesday he will ask the U.S. government to let Montana set up its own universal health care program, taking his rhetorical fight over health care to another level.Like Republicans who object to the federal health care law, the Democratic governor also argues it doesn't do enough to control costs and says his state should have more flexibility than the law allows. But Schweitzer has completely different plans for the Medicare and Medicaid money the federal government gives the state to administer those programs.

The popular second-term Democrat would like to create a state-run system that borrows from the program used in Saskatchewan. He said the Canadian province controls cost by negotiating drug prices and limiting nonemergency procedures such as MRIs.

Schweitzer said the province's demographics and economy are similar to Montana in several ways — yet its residents live longer while spending far less on health care.

During the health care debate in Washington, D.C., two years ago, only the most liberal lawmakers were calling for some form of the doomed proposals for "Medicare for all." But Schweitzer continues to argue that a program like that makes much more sense than the one signed into law by President Barack Obama.The governor told Marguerite Salazar, a regional director of the Department of Health and Human Services, that Congress has designed a "pack of crap" that gives away far too much to the pharmaceutical industry.

Salazar said she would convey the message to Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius.

Schweitzer said Montanans with private insurance could drop that coverage if they choose and buy into the state-run plan at a cheaper rate. He envisioned a system that would cover, with copays for service, all the uninsured in Montana.
This is the sort of bottom-up reform pressure that took place in prior Crises and what I am happy to see happening now. That's two states (Montana and Vermont) who are pressing for single-payer plans at the state level.
"And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, slouches toward Bethlehem to be born?"

My blog: https://brianrushwriter.wordpress.com/

The Order Master (volume one of Refuge), a science fantasy. Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GZZWEAS
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Post#2895 at 10-01-2011 11:55 AM by Christi56 [at Puna, Hawaii, USA joined Dec 2006 #posts 105]
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What a cool surprise. Thanks for posting this.

Quote Originally Posted by Brian Rush View Post
Well, in a break from the silly name-calling and other off-topic foolishness, here's a nice little bit of news on the national healthcare front:

http://www.greatfallstribune.com/art...urance-program



This is the sort of bottom-up reform pressure that took place in prior Crises and what I am happy to see happening now. That's two states (Montana and Vermont) who are pressing for single-payer plans at the state level.







Post#2896 at 10-12-2011 11:21 AM by CateTeecy [at United Kingdom joined Jul 2011 #posts 5]
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Its time for national healthcare

Do you think time travel will ever become a reality?Yes5







Post#2897 at 10-12-2011 11:37 AM by The Grey Badger [at Albuquerque, NM joined Sep 2001 #posts 8,876]
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Quote Originally Posted by CateTeecy View Post
Do you think time travel will ever become a reality?Yes5
Are you saying that national healthcare is as likely as time travel? If that's so, than most of Europe must be going faster than light!
How to spot a shill, by John Michael Greer: "What you watch for is (a) a brand new commenter who (b) has nothing to say about the topic under discussion but (c) trots out a smoothly written opinion piece that (d) hits all the standard talking points currently being used by a specific political or corporate interest, while (e) avoiding any other points anyone else has made on that subject."

"If the shoe fits..." The Grey Badger.







Post#2898 at 10-14-2011 09:18 PM by millennialX [at Gotham City, USA joined Oct 2010 #posts 6,597]
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Obama drops long term health care program

Born in 1981 and INFJ Gen Yer







Post#2899 at 10-14-2011 09:33 PM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
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Quote Originally Posted by millennialX View Post
Makes a person wonder if this is the beginning of the end of the reform.
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#2900 at 10-14-2011 09:41 PM by ASB65 [at Texas joined Mar 2010 #posts 5,892]
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Quote Originally Posted by Deb C View Post
Makes a person wonder if this is the beginning of the end of the reform.
And what exactly did that "reform" amount to anyway? Last time I checked I was still fighting with my insurance company to get them to pay for medicine my son needs...Just another form of legislation that was hijacked by the lobbyist and big corporations (in this case the insurance and pharmaceutical companies).
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