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Thread: It's time for national healthcare - Page 158







Post#3926 at 05-16-2013 08:05 PM by Wallace 88 [at joined Dec 2010 #posts 1,232]
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Quote Originally Posted by Justin '77 View Post
Per your custom here, 99% of what you wrote was just you spewing bile against your imaginary friends. Unusually, you almost actually posed one question worth answering (however briefly). I've edited it lightly to make it worth our attention:

As I've explicitly made mention several times in the past -- directly to you on at least one occasion -- I was fairly well impressed by the superiority of the system my family and I encountered and used in Russia. To wit: emergency and lifesaving care as a no-question-asked service offered by doctors and clinics when it was needed (easily fundable by somewhat higher charges assessed for medical care outside that limited purview). Childrens' care primarily through their schools or kindergartens (part of the tuition) Everything else pay-as-you-go. All of it allowed to be accessible to even low-earners thanks to an absolute lack of cartelization in medical training and licensing.

It seems very much to be a system that works very well. People's lives are saved, and nobody even fears (to say nothing of actually experiencing) medical bankruptcy.

I'm sure there are other ways that work well. But that system is at least one that is demonstrably better from the standpoint of the actual provision of actual medical care o actual people. Which, to fully disclose my biases, is what I want from a medical paradigm. You clearly want something else, so I'm certain my points hold no weight with you whatsoever. That's cool.
I like this. Most people forget how much the mediacl monoploy drives up costs. I would like to know what The Rani has to say. Not that she is teh end all be all.







Post#3927 at 05-16-2013 09:48 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by Justin '77 View Post
Per your custom here, 99% of what you wrote was just you spewing bile against your imaginary friends. Unusually, you almost actually posed one question worth answering (however briefly). I've edited it lightly to make it worth our attention:

As I've explicitly made mention several times in the past -- directly to you on at least one occasion -- I was fairly well impressed by the superiority of the system my family and I encountered and used in Russia. To wit: emergency and lifesaving care as a no-question-asked service offered by doctors and clinics when it was needed (easily fundable by somewhat higher charges assessed for medical care outside that limited purview). Childrens' care primarily through their schools or kindergartens (part of the tuition) Everything else pay-as-you-go. All of it allowed to be accessible to even low-earners thanks to an absolute lack of cartelization in medical training and licensing.

It seems very much to be a system that works very well. People's lives are saved, and nobody even fears (to say nothing of actually experiencing) medical bankruptcy.

I'm sure there are other ways that work well. But that system is at least one that is demonstrably better from the standpoint of the actual provision of actual medical care o actual people. Which, to fully disclose my biases, is what I want from a medical paradigm. You clearly want something else, so I'm certain my points hold no weight with you whatsoever. That's cool.
Okay, so you want the govt completely out of it (you've lost everyone on the Left, most independents and I dare say a lot of folks even on the Right (remember the baggers who demanded that the socialist govt keep their hands off their Medicare?))

And, you want to put the insurers out of business (you've lost all those who like free enterprise)

And now with further clarification, you want our health providers to have the same relative incomes as those providers in Russia (I think you just lost Rani and ALL of her friends in the entire medical arena).

Yea, that's viable.

In comparison, it does make what Debs has been harping on almost seem possible.... well, almost.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#3928 at 05-16-2013 10:09 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
About ... ???
Cutting your income to about a 1/10 of what it is now.

It's for a more perfect world, you know?
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#3929 at 05-16-2013 10:27 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
Isn't that what YOU wanted, to make docs give up their Mercedes and send us all to the poorhouse?
I don't know why you're now arguing against it.
Yeah. Docs in Russia can make really good money, if they've got the drive to run and grow a business and the skills to offer to make it worthwhile to their clients.

PW's just talking out his ass again... by now, it must be strange and uncomfortable for him to do it any other way.
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#3930 at 05-16-2013 10:30 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
Isn't that what YOU wanted, to make docs give up their Mercedes and send us all to the poorhouse?
I don't know why you're now arguing against it.
I was pointing out the reality of high health cost in the US being due primarily because that's what health providers demand (admittedly, many younger docs tend to be at the lower end). And if you want to do something about those costs and talk only about the evil insurers rather than the saintly providers, you're just blowing smoke up... well, I've done enough anatomy tonight.

That's pretty consistent with my pointing out that Justin's Russian utopia would require taking on the providers in a very unfriendly way.

While I've hinted at what I believe is politically viable in that regard (i.e. something like a snowball's chance....), I really haven't revealed any personal preference. That would, of course, be contingent on whether I had a better chance than the snowball of marrying a certain health provider lady and live off her income...

Did I just hear someone say "eeeeewwww!" ???
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#3931 at 05-16-2013 10:33 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by Justin '77 View Post
Yeah. Docs in Russia can make really good money, if they've got the drive to run and grow a business and the skills to offer to make it worthwhile to their clients.

PW's just talking out his ass again... by now, it must be strange and uncomfortable for him to do it any other way.
Ah, do you care to back that up with some actual referenced numbers?

You do recall as well that I'm married to a Russian? We're headed back there for a month this August.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#3932 at 05-17-2013 07:55 AM by Earl and Mooch [at Delaware - we pave paradise and put up parking lots joined Sep 2002 #posts 2,106]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
Isn't that what YOU wanted, to make docs give up their Mercedes and send us all to the poorhouse?
I don't know why you're now arguing against it.
If doctors really cared about their patients, they wouldn't have such big houses.
"My generation, we were the generation that was going to change the world: somehow we were going to make it a little less lonely, a little less hungry, a little more just place. But it seems that when that promise slipped through our hands we didn´t replace it with nothing but lost faith."

Bruce Springsteen, 1987
http://brucebase.wikispaces.com/1987...+YORK+CITY,+NY







Post#3933 at 05-17-2013 09:12 AM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
Ah, do you care to back that up with some actual referenced numbers?
Sure; I'll get you exact figures. The only numbers with any reality: first-hand anecdotal. Government statistics -- in particular from Russia -- in particular on reported income -- are no better than darts tossed at bullshit.


You do recall as well that I'm married to a Russian? We're headed back there for a month this August.
Awesome! She's from Karelia, if I remember correctly? If you have the slightest chance, I highly recommend the environs of the Belomor canal -- Belomorsk itself is a nice little burg, and the environs are spectacular; there's a great pulloff at Nadvoitsy where you can get right up to the locks that slaves built through hillsides; and the Sandomokh memorial out on the edge of Onega near Medvezhegorsk simply cannot be missed. August is a good time to be there.
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#3934 at 05-17-2013 11:48 AM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by Justin '77 View Post
Awesome! She's from Karelia, if I remember correctly? If you have the slightest chance, I highly recommend the environs of the Belomor canal -- Belomorsk itself is a nice little burg, and the environs are spectacular; there's a great pulloff at Nadvoitsy where you can get right up to the locks that slaves built through hillsides; and the Sandomokh memorial out on the edge of Onega near Medvezhegorsk simply cannot be missed. August is a good time to be there.
Actually a St. Pete girl but with a dacha up there. Right on the friken lake (but, ah, with outside building facilities) close to the environs of Petrovskaya (sp?). I know we're taking a ferry to some island with a wooden monastery that was put together without any nails. I'll show her your suggestions however.

She prefers the Russian health system as well, and we don't have an affordability problem here. It's other things particularly the lack of human touch here. She does complain about the bribes needed over there, but hell, she's Russian, they complain about everything so one has to tease out the difference to figure out what is actually preferred.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#3935 at 05-17-2013 02:24 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
Actually a St. Pete girl but with a dacha up there. Right on the friken lake (but, ah, with outside building facilities) close to the environs of Petrovskaya (sp?). I know we're taking a ferry to some island with a wooden monastery that was put together without any nails. I'll show her your suggestions however.
Fuckin awesome! You're going to Kizhi! That's more than just the one monastery -- it's like an outdoor museum/archaeological site. It's one of the neatest places to go from SPb.

As to the dacha town, I assume it's Petrovskoye (it's a 'selo', so the adjective needs to be neuter-gender, not feminine). We have friends with a place in Orekhovo, just a hair down the road from there, that we used to visit. It's a pretty place, though more than on-foot distance from the lake... From there, the Belomorkanal tour is a bit of a drive, but it's still well worth doing. There's even a pretty nice semi-outdoor banya place on the north bank of Onega near Povenets (east of Medvezhegorsk) that I would very much recommend, if you're there.

Really, if you're going to be a whole month, you totally should make the day trip down to Velikiy Novgorod (if you haven't already). It's about 1.5-2 hours south of SPb; the old (like, 1,100-plus years) capitol of the Rus from back before "Russia" was really a thing. Walls built because at the time the Mongol Horde was a genuine nearby threat. Plus, there's a good restaurant up in one of the armories inside the fortress wall there.
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#3936 at 05-17-2013 02:45 PM by JDG 66 [at joined Aug 2010 #posts 2,106]
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Quote Originally Posted by Earl and Mooch View Post
If doctors really cared about their patients, they wouldn't have such big houses.
-Non sequitur.

Has anyone bothered to point out that the IRS will be an enforcement arm of Obamacare?

EDIT:
Ah. It doesn't get any better. A quick off-the cuff search, and what do I find?

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics...care-official/

Despite her congressional testimony, the Internal Revenue Service today denied that the former commissioner of tax exempt and government entities – now running the agency’s health care office – was in charge of the unit’s day-to-day operations after Dec. 2010.

Sarah Hall Ingram retained the title of commissioner, with oversight over tax-exempt groups, but the IRS says she moved to the agency’s Affordable Care Act office full time by the end of 2010, six months after the tax agency began selectively scrutinizing conservative groups...
Last edited by JDG 66; 05-17-2013 at 03:51 PM.







Post#3937 at 05-17-2013 06:07 PM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
Now it will be so much better to do the same thing because his god, the government, is doing it now. I suppose this is appropriate since governments have historically been very good at racking up body counts.
No. Corporate control of government -- or at least its economic decisions -- is fascism, an ideology infamous for racking up huge body counts.

As we head to trusts and cartels as the norm for big business, business less serves customers and employees and better serves owners and bosses. If profit comes from pricing people into the grave, then that happens.

Medicare for All is the most economical means of meeting at the least basic medical needs. For most people, the majority of spending on their medical care comes in the last years of their lives -- and that as it is is a huge chunk of Medicare. Medicare for All would be little more expensive than Medicare itself. Perfect? Hardly. Some people will want more.

We have the world's highest medical costs in part because we have a for-profit bureaucracy operating on a cost-plus basis.

Don't shed tears for the insurance companies. Let them sell life insurance, one of the more reasonable investments for most people because it is low-risk and long-term.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#3938 at 05-17-2013 06:35 PM by JordanGoodspeed [at joined Mar 2013 #posts 3,587]
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*sigh*

That's not really what the corporatism of fascism means. Yellow card.







Post#3939 at 05-18-2013 10:28 AM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
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More in regards to doctor owned hospitals.

Doctor owned hospitals: Are the rich getting richer?

When doctors own the hospitals, they stand to directly share in profits. If you’re a doctor-owner, and the hospital you both run and own is functioning at a high level, you think, “This is what America is all about. Free enterprise. Why shouldn’t I make more money if my hospital runs well?”

As a taxpayer, do I want government incentives going to hospitals that are privately owned and known for cherry-picking insured patients?

Moreover, what does it say about public hospitals, or academic centers, that often see the sickest, poorest, most vulnerable patients? Yes, their quality is measurably lower, according to this data. But now, in spite of staying true to their core missions (serving the public) they’re being further penalized.

Is this just another case of the rich simply getting richer?

Maybe Obamacare’s got it wrong. Maybe we should build upon the model of doctor-ownership and turn over public hospitals to their workers. All of them. Let the nurses buy in. And the food handlers. And the “environmental services” folks (i.e. custodial crews). Let’s really let the workers own the means of production. Then we can see where incentives get us.


http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2013/05/...ampaign=Buffer
Last edited by Deb C; 05-18-2013 at 10:31 AM.
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#3940 at 05-18-2013 06:25 PM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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Quote Originally Posted by Deb C View Post
More in regards to doctor owned hospitals.

Doctor owned hospitals: Are the rich getting richer?





http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2013/05/...ampaign=Buffer
Physicians owning hospitals? Isn't that a conflict of interest? Wouldn't that be like labor unions owning stock in the companies in which they negotiate? Or being the director of public works yet owning a share in a construction contractor?
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#3941 at 05-18-2013 06:34 PM by JordanGoodspeed [at joined Mar 2013 #posts 3,587]
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How is employee ownership of business a conflict of interest?







Post#3942 at 05-18-2013 06:53 PM by JohnMc82 [at Back in Jax joined Jan 2011 #posts 1,962]
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Quote Originally Posted by JordanGoodspeed View Post
How is employee ownership of business a conflict of interest?
I guess maybe if the union big-wigs had ownership but the rank-and-file didn't? IMO, employee-owned businesses are just a better quality and value than investor-owned businesses... but I'm sure that, given a sufficient chance, someone would learn how to corrupt and exploit that as well.
Those words, "temperate and moderate", are words either of political cowardice, or of cunning, or seduction. A thing, moderately good, is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper, is always a virtue; but moderation in principle, is a species of vice.

'82 - Once & always independent







Post#3943 at 05-19-2013 12:17 AM by Classic-X'er [at joined Sep 2012 #posts 1,789]
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Quote Originally Posted by Deb C View Post
Then there's Denmark. And it's not a utopian dream, it's a reality.

"Health care in Denmark is universal, free of charge and high quality. Everybody is covered as a right of citizenship. The Danish health care system is popular with patient satisfaction much higher than in the United States. In Denmark, every citizen can choose a doctor in their area. Prescription drugs are inexpensive. They’re free for those under 18 years of age. Interestingly, despite their universal coverage, the Danish health care system is far more cost-effective than ours. They spend about 11 percent of their GDP on health care. We spend almost 18 percent." .. Bernie Sanders
I agree with Bernie, we spend to much money on healthcare for the welfare state. What would his reaction be to a 7% cut in healthcare related programs for the welfare state? How does Demarks healthcare compare to the State of Massachusettes? Do the heads of Denmark consistantly claim to know nothing about anything important or relevant that happens when asked for straight answers than the socially percieved (blue) idiots who are supposed to be in charge of running things today?
Last edited by Classic-X'er; 05-19-2013 at 12:39 AM.







Post#3944 at 05-19-2013 04:09 AM by princeofcats67 [at joined Jan 2010 #posts 1,995]
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Quote Originally Posted by JordanGoodspeed View Post
*sigh*

That's not really what the corporatism of fascism means. Yellow card.
Tell me about it!


Prince

PS: The poster on that thread named "independent" is someone I refer to as Indy(aka John Mc82).
Although he's a bit left-of-center for my taste, he's a straight-shooter, IMO/IME. IOW, he's alright.
I Am A Child of God/Nature/The Universe
I Think Globally and Act Individually(and possibly, voluntarily join-together with Others)
I Pray for World Peace & I Choose Less-Just Say: "NO!, Thank You."







Post#3945 at 05-19-2013 11:31 AM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
Heh. Love this comment at the bottom:
I see profits for doctors, by exclusion, not anymore of a solution than our health in the hands of the insurance industry. What I do support are community owned hospitals.

Also from the article:

Maybe Obamacare’s got it wrong. Maybe we should build upon the model of doctor-ownership and turn over public hospitals to their workers. All of them. Let the nurses buy in. And the food handlers. And the “environmental services” folks (i.e. custodial crews). Let’s really let the workers own the means of production. Then we can see where incentives get us.
Besides, it's the support services that actually make a hospital, or any business for that matter, run more smoothly and efficiently.
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#3946 at 05-19-2013 01:17 PM by JordanGoodspeed [at joined Mar 2013 #posts 3,587]
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Quote Originally Posted by Deb C View Post
I see profits for doctors, by exclusion, not anymore of a solution than our health in the hands of the insurance industry. What I do support are community owned hospitals.

Also from the article:



Besides, it's the support services that actually make a hospital, or any business for that matter, run more smoothly and efficiently.
Worker's cooperatives!!







Post#3947 at 05-19-2013 02:43 PM by JordanGoodspeed [at joined Mar 2013 #posts 3,587]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
What would be even better is overcoming our ingrained assumption that "health care" necessarily means "hospitals."
For example, here's what's going on in my community right now, sponsored by a local co-op:
Why make it either/or? Personal responsibility and agency all around!







Post#3948 at 05-19-2013 04:23 PM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
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Quote Originally Posted by JordanGoodspeed View Post
Why make it either/or? Personal responsibility and agency all around!
Yes, it can be a both/and proposition.
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#3949 at 05-19-2013 08:43 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
Some people can't separate heath care from politics.
Public option? Legislating against doctors? Is Obama the Messiah? Who cares. Getting involved in your own community is "a tad more worthwhile" than arguing about any of those things.
Health care is a political issue. Arguing may not be worthwhile, but medicare is. Naive libertarian approaches are not worthwhile, even though "Getting involved in your own community" is.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#3950 at 05-19-2013 10:37 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by JordanGoodspeed View Post
Why make it either/or? Personal responsibility and agency all around!
Good response.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.
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