Originally Posted by JohnMc82

Young people need to do this, they need to do that. They need to pay Social Security taxes to cohorts with more wealth than themselves. They need to pay for their fair share of the healthcare they don't use. They need to pay more for their own college education, even if it means mortgaging their entire career's earnings.

They need to fix everything and they need to quit complaining about the fact that we haven't provided them with any resources or incomes with which to do it.

Spoiled, ungrateful brats, don't they know we're making them take care of us for their own good?

Social Security is single payer retirement system. Medicare is single payer health insurance for the elderly.

If we went to single payer health insurance for everyone, it would be 'paid for' exactly the same way - with a payroll tax on everyone including the young. The GOP, if they even allowed this (they never will), would insist that it be paid for with payroll taxes. The Dems would roll-out the same argument that FDR rolled out for SS and agree with the GOP that it would have to be paid for so that it would not be considered welfare but entitlement.

You would get exactly the same system we have for SS and Medicare with payroll taxes. For older people, it would be an incredible bargain for they would get the full benefit immediately but would not have had months/years of paying into it. Younger people would be paying for months and years and just getting much less out of it for months and years because, well, they're younger people.

The sense of the young paying for the old would be extremely more tangible under a single payer regime. And you all would be even more pissed. That is something that the Debs of the world conveniently forget to consider when they talk about the need for magic ponies pooping single payer.

I am still for single payer. I am also for SS and Medicare. I am also for paying people to go to school. AND I AM FOR ELIMINATING ALL PAYROLL TAXES.

I can be for these things because I, unlike 99.9% of the people, actually understand how our monetary systems actually works. The federal govt can pay for all these things without taxing for them specifically (it still needs some level of taxing authority) and without actually borrowing. It simply spends the money into the economy using the same computer keystrokes it currently uses today; it just stop pretending to keystroke something called federal debt.

The only constraint would be if, when added to all private spending, it creates demand that exceeds the economy's ability to supply. That puts upward pressure on prices; that is called demand inflation. Demand inflation is not on any credible economic forecaster's horizon right now or into the future. If it becomes an issue in the economy overall or in a specific sector (e.g., healthcare, education) then there are tools to cut that spending or raise taxes to cool that spending off.

The not-so-funny thing about this, is the lack of this understanding is leading to monetary policies that actually distort the marketplace and cause asset inflation that makes gold bugs, house flippers, stock brokers and the financial sector joyous but also leads to bubbles like we've had that caused the 2008 Financial Meltdown and the Great Recession.

Nearly every economic problem and nearly every social ill we have today is either caused by or greatly amplified by the sheer willful ignorance of how our monetary system actually works.

You Millies are smart and believe it collective thinking. You could be the ones to break out of the stupidity that grips us.

Originally Posted by JohnMc82

Oh yeah? Median young boomers were paying 15% gross in payroll? 10% gross in student loans (after "reform")? 8% gross for health insurance premiums, just to have deductibles equal to 25% of income?

"Suck it up millies, it's just a little bit of political corruption here and there. Paying tribute to our corporate overlords is a collective responsibility and creates a greater good than us peons can recognize."



The only group that seems happy with today's premium numbers and exchange roll-out is Wall Street (and their local spokesperson, PW). The most politically connected insurers are up 2-3% since yesterday's close. Everyone else is looking for someone to blame: Republicans who didn't take advantage of Medicaid expansion, Democrats who got the ball rolling and kept pushing even after it became obvious that the bill was a disaster, old people who think it's just lazy young people/minorities/immigrants who looking for a handout and/or are complaining about paying their fair share (of the costs incurred by said old people).

Everyone's got someone to blame, everyone's got some reason to dismiss everyone else's concerns, hell, we just shut down the government... but goddamn it, by hell or high water, them investors are gonna get paid.

And no, there are still no jobs. Quit acting so entitled with your bachelor's degree and lengthy resume of unpaid and underpaid internships.

You all just can't get use to the idea that the time for throwing out the hyperbole is coming to a close. The exchanges are up and running and real numbers can be compared.

What is this fuckin disaster that you are spouting? Are zombies at your door? Have they put grandma in front of death panel? Have the Blackhawks come swooping in and stolen your Freedom Fries? Has your cat tried mating with your dog?

I repeat, what is the fuckin disaster that you seem so willy-nilly willing to throw around?

Back it up, dude, or shut the fuck up.

Look up thread. Miserable Rani tried hoisting the same horseshit of the Millies paying the price. I asked her the same F'in question; no response. Your turn.

I've given the path of what's off the table (e.g. whining Millies still on their parents insurance until 26) and what may be the questions - Millies whining about free or under $80 REAL insurance or even cheaper catastrophic insurance; Millies too stupid to get insurance because they believe they are invulnerable and when they wind up at emergency rooms they free load off the rest of us?

Those are your fuckin disasters?

I may need to update my dictionary because that sure as hell doesn't line up with the definition I have for "disaster."
Maybe I need the "Whiny Millie" edition?

My apologies for perhaps the overuse of the F word. I am really getting fed up with this horseshit hyperbole. At least with you, it is still possible for you to grow up; the ones in Congress doing the country great harm with this exact same horseshit are simple beyond help.

I think both Marx & Lennon and playwrite are missing John's point by picking at the details.

Originally Posted by JohnMc82

And no, there are still no jobs. Quit acting so entitled with your bachelor's degree and lengthy resume of unpaid and underpaid internships.

Again, I shall atone for my sins in having four decades of work experience, two degrees, an honourable discharge, etc, etc, by going to interviews, wearing a suit and having persons half my age with no suit and no shave get the job.

J82, we're *all* being played in the job market. That's no reason for not being willing to share with the other children.

Originally Posted by JohnMc82

Young people need to do this, they need to do that. They need to pay Social Security taxes to cohorts with more wealth than themselves. They need to pay for their fair share of the healthcare they don't use. They need to pay more for their own college education, even if it means mortgaging their entire career's earnings.

They need to fix everything and they need to quit complaining about the fact that we haven't provided them with any resources or incomes with which to do it.

Spoiled, ungrateful brats, don't they know we're making them take care of us for their own good?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Wangst

A study guide:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...eatASnarkIndex

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...troyerOfWorlds

Originally Posted by Bad Dog

J82, we're *all* being played in the job market. That's no reason for not being willing to share with the other children.

Only when you quit protecting and defending the guys who stole your lunch money (hint: they don't just wear red).

Margaret Flowers is a Pediatrician who's extremely knowledgeable about the ACA. She explains that having insurance is different than having healthcare.

What the Affordable Care Act has done is it's put into law that 60 percent and 70 percent coverage are just fine. And those are really bankrupting coverage. People who have plans that are 60 or 70 percent--and you can only get a 70 percent plan if you take a subsidy. It only subsidizes those plans. Those are really plans that mean that people, if they have a serious accident or a serious illness, are either not going to be able to afford to get the care they need or they're going to go bankrupt. The top cause of personal bankruptcies in this country is medical costs and illness. And we haven't seen that decline in Massachusetts that has the same plan. I don't think we're going to see it decline here. We're going to continue to have--the latest estimate by Congressional Budget Office is still 31 million people without insurance in this country when it's all said and done. And I think that's a low estimate. I imagine it will be higher. People who have insurance are going to have really very skimpy coverage that's not there when they need it.

So we're pouring money into this industry and a lot of bureaucracy and added cost with no cost controls, and we're not going to be seeing--I don't think we're going to see good health outcomes out of it or see people getting the care they need.

Originally Posted by Bad Dog

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...troyerOfWorlds

This should be a trope in itself, "if someone declares sympathy for those in a bad position, they must be the woobie."

That is some classic GOP conditioning right there.

Anyway, I like the well-intentioned extremist

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...ionedExtremist

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...NotBeCivilized

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...remistWasRight

Originally Posted by JohnMc82

Only when you quit protecting and defending the guys who stole your lunch money (hint: they don't just wear red).

No, mostly they wear very expensive suits. And play both parties.

Originally Posted by Kepi

I think both Marx & Lennon and playwrite are missing John's point by picking at the details.

When you keep claiming there's a disaster, you better have some detail, any detail, to back that up.

It's akin to screaming fire in a theater and not being able to say that you even smelt any smoke let alone saw a flame.

I've gotten exasperated over this constant drumming of inane hyperbole - if somebody has a F'n disaster, they should at least be able to explain what that disaster entails.

Originally Posted by JohnMc82

This should be a trope in itself, "if someone declares sympathy for those in a bad position, they must be the woobie."

That is some classic GOP conditioning right there.

Anyway, I like the well-intentioned extremist

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...ionedExtremist

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...NotBeCivilized

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...remistWasRight

At least you *get* TV Tropes. Seriously, bravo.

Originally Posted by Deb C

Margaret Flowers is a Pediatrician who's extremely knowledgeable about the ACA. She explains that having insurance is different than having healthcare.

I always find it amusing that someone who has insurance (particularly $1000/mo insurance) wants to spend so much time and energy trying to convince others that having insurance is no big deal.

Does the word, hypocrite, have any meaning any more?

Real nice.

Signing up for Obamacare: ‘It will save me over $6,000. For that, I would have waited all day.’

It took three hours, but Andrew Stryker managed to be among the first people to purchase health insurance through Obamacare's new insurance markets.

Stryker is 34 years old and lives in Los Angeles, where he now does freelance work. He pays a monthly premium around $600 to stay on the COBRA plan from a job he left four years ago. He has high blood pressure and says insurance companies have previously denied his applications for coverage on the individual market.

"I figured this might cut my premiums in half and I'd be getting better service for half the price," he says.
Stryker first logged into California's marketplace, Covered California, at midnight last night. He couldn't get the site to load, so he tried again around 8 a.m. today.

"It let me access the page and start signing up," Stryker says. It was not, as some have predicted, as simple as buying a plane ticket. "I would equate it to filling out a credit card application. The format was pretty clear. It wasn't too complicated."

The biggest problem, Stryker says, was that the Web site was slow. He would get through a step and then the screen would freeze. The whole process took three hours but, by the end, Stryker had a new health insurance plan.

"It's a silver level PPO," he says. "I did the research probably about a month ago, went through all the plans and compared them to my current one. I found one that I liked, so I signed up for that today."
Asked what he did to keep busy while signing up, Stryker says he was mostly watching television if the computer froze for a bit.

"I’ve been watching the news about the government shutdown," he says. "Obviously three hours is a long time to wait, but it will save me over $6,000. For that, I would have waited all day."

Feel free to compare the hard numbers of Stryker's reality to those numbers of this mysterious disaster we keep hearing about here on 4T central. Well, if and when we should ever get any hard numbers about the mysterious disaster.

Did anyone today see an Obamacare zombie, have a grannie lost to a death panel, lose their freedom fries to the Blackhawks swooping in or a cat mating with their dog?

If not, seems like the end of the world as we know it hasn't been all that bad today.

I'm still listening if anyone's got a report to the contrary.

Originally Posted by playwrite

When you keep claiming there's a disaster, you better have some detail, any detail, to back that up.

It's akin to screaming fire in a theater and not being able to say that you even smelt any smoke let alone saw a flame.

I've gotten exasperated over this constant drumming of inane hyperbole - if somebody has a F'n disaster, they should at least be able to explain what that disaster entails.

Yup missed it entirely.

To use Marx & Lennon's analogy, if you wanted your water carried, you should have provided a bucket. The "young people need to do this, young people need to do that" is going to fall on deaf ears and angry minds. First off, the majority of Millennials are adults. They out number Boomers, they're more like minded than Boomers. This means the ball is in their court, and they're going to get to decide the destination. They're the drivers. When they've all seen you total the car, why are they going to follow your directions? The day is quickly approaching where they've found to be in total control. They will collectively decide the fate of the the government and what it does and does not do. They don't want the back seat drivers. They've mostly I'm their 20's and 30's.

You want something done, you better do it while you've still got a few fingers in the wheel, because when they get control, their interests will go to the forefront.

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

Yes of course, perfect is alwasy ideal, but until the change happens, life goes on. We might see something really good post-2016, but that's 3+ years of waiting. So use the band-aid available for now, and be thankful that there is one at all ... after 100 years, something that beats nothing at all. Just don't kill it. Teddy Kenedy did that for much the same reason, and we've waited 40+ years to get back to that same place today.

You know, when commenting on Dead Kennedy one really needs to take care with their wording lest they become unintentionally funny.

Originally Posted by JohnMc82

Oh yeah? Median young boomers were paying 15% gross in payroll? 10% gross in student loans (after "reform")? 8% gross for health insurance premiums, just to have deductibles equal to 25% of income?

Well I think what he really meant to say was that his generation worked really, really hard for their sense of entitlement and that frankly you young-uns only need to keep bailing water until such time as every last single one of them are dead and buried. After that the young can pretty much go fuck themselves.

Originally Posted by Kepi

They've mostly I'm their 20's and 30's.

Spelling is a virtue. In Kepi, IN!

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Spelling is a virtue. In Kepi, IN!

Autocorrect disagrees, and unfortunately I don't always notice it before I post. I correct way more than I miss, but that's how it goes.

Originally Posted by Kepi

Yup missed it entirely.

To use Marx & Lennon's analogy, if you wanted your water carried, you should have provided a bucket. The "young people need to do this, young people need to do that" is going to fall on deaf ears and angry minds. First off, the majority of Millennials are adults. They out number Boomers, they're more like minded than Boomers. This means the ball is in their court, and they're going to get to decide the destination. They're the drivers. When they've all seen you total the car, why are they going to follow your directions? The day is quickly approaching where they've found to be in total control. They will collectively decide the fate of the the government and what it does and does not do. They don't want the back seat drivers. They've mostly I'm their 20's and 30's.

You want something done, you better do it while you've still got a few fingers in the wheel, because when they get control, their interests will go to the forefront.

Disillusionment with Boomers...how common is this among Millenials?

Originally Posted by Kepi

Yup missed it entirely.

To use Marx & Lennon's analogy, if you wanted your water carried, you should have provided a bucket. The "young people need to do this, young people need to do that" is going to fall on deaf ears and angry minds. First off, the majority of Millennials are adults. They out number Boomers, they're more like minded than Boomers. This means the ball is in their court, and they're going to get to decide the destination. They're the drivers. When they've all seen you total the car, why are they going to follow your directions? The day is quickly approaching where they've found to be in total control. They will collectively decide the fate of the the government and what it does and does not do. They don't want the back seat drivers. They've mostly I'm their 20's and 30's.

You want something done, you better do it while you've still got a few fingers in the wheel, because when they get control, their interests will go to the forefront.

I'm not asking for more tantrum posing as worldliness and wisdom. I'm asking for facts that back up the conjecture that the ACA has posed a "disaster" for young people. That's the trigger that unleashed the tantrum. If one can't back up the reason for the tantrum then the tantrum is basically just that... and the advice is pretty simple... grow up.

As always, I stand ready to be shown otherwise.

And remember, this is coming from the guy who wants to do away with FICA, keep SS, extend Medicare to everyone, and PAY kids to go to college rather than saddle them with debt. And no, I'm not a commie. I'm a capitalist that understands the full power of our monetary system that supports the capitalist system that has allowed that power to be born. It's our ignorance of that which is holding us back.

Originally Posted by TimWalker

Disillusionment with Boomers...how common is this among Millenials?

It's been my experience that it's very, and increasing. In, say 2000 you'd get the occasional expected teenage comments about their parents not getting "it". But not a whole lot. By 2004ish there was some talk about how far they expected things to go and the ridiculous price tags they were willing to pay for the illusion of security. By 2008 I'd say it was a topic, but not dwelled on. In 2010 or 11 I remember being out to dinner with my wife, youngest brother and parents, and my mom said that I "think the economy is all the Baby Boom Generation's fault. Do you guys think it's -" and she couldn't even get the "our" out of her mouth without my wife (5 years younger than me), and my brother (9 years 362 days younger than me) shouted "YES!" at an uncomfortable volume. Over the past year though, there's been a lot more extensive conversations and several angry outbursts (such as my wife's best friend's wedding something or other, where she casually dropped the "is it just me or does our parents generation just suck?"), in the past couple weeks it's been almost constant. I haven't gone a week without it coming up with people I know I'm real life.

Originally Posted by Kepi

It's been my experience that it's very, and increasing. In, say 2000 you'd get the occasional expected teenage comments about their parents not getting "it". But not a whole lot. By 2004ish there was some talk about how far they expected things to go and the ridiculous price tags they were willing to pay for the illusion of security. By 2008 I'd say it was a topic, but not dwelled on. In 2010 or 11 I remember being out to dinner with my wife, youngest brother and parents, and my mom said that I "think the economy is all the Baby Boom Generation's fault. Do you guys think it's -" and she couldn't even get the "our" out of her mouth without my wife (5 years younger than me), and my brother (9 years 362 days younger than me) shouted "YES!" at an uncomfortable volume. Over the past year though, there's been a lot more extensive conversations and several angry outbursts (such as my wife's best friend's wedding something or other, where she casually dropped the "is it just me or does our parents generation just suck?"), in the past couple weeks it's been almost constant. I haven't gone a week without it coming up with people I know I'm real life.

Wow, young people blaming old people for the weight of the world that they find themselves in!

What an original concept. Nothing like this in the entire history of the world that has proceeded this generation's discovery!

These Millies are sure imaginative, and smart too! Surely they'll save us all!

- Faux News!

http://mediacast.realgravity.com/sha...3e6aa98c4.html