Generational Dynamics
Fourth Turning Forum Archive


Popular links:
Generational Dynamics Web Site
Generational Dynamics Forum
Fourth Turning Archive home page
New Fourth Turning Forum

Thread: It's time for national healthcare - Page 179







Post#4451 at 10-01-2013 10:36 PM by Kepi [at Northern, VA joined Nov 2012 #posts 3,664]
---
10-01-2013, 10:36 PM #4451
Join Date
Nov 2012
Location
Northern, VA
Posts
3,664

Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
Wow, young people blaming old people for the weight of the world that they find themselves in!

What an original concept. Nothing like this in the entire history of the world that has proceeded this generation's discovery!

These Millies are sure imaginative, and smart too! Surely they'll save us all!
I wouldn't worry about them saving you. What should concern you is the exit strategy, because unlike other generations, "Cut and Run" sounded more than acceptable.







Post#4452 at 10-01-2013 10:47 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
---
10-01-2013, 10:47 PM #4452
Join Date
Jul 2005
Location
NYC
Posts
10,443

Quote Originally Posted by Kepi View Post
I wouldn't worry about them saving you. What should concern you is the exit strategy, because unlike other generations, "Cut and Run" sounded more than acceptable.
I guess sarcasm is not one of the Millies' strengths either.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#4453 at 10-01-2013 11:10 PM by Kepi [at Northern, VA joined Nov 2012 #posts 3,664]
---
10-01-2013, 11:10 PM #4453
Join Date
Nov 2012
Location
Northern, VA
Posts
3,664

Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
I guess sarcasm is not one of the Millies' strengths either.
No, I got the sarcasm, I just didn't care about it. Much like I don't care what you want. You better provide that bucket, because you got, what? A year? Tops? After that, all those things you want are irrelevant.

The mouthy Boomer routine is played out and obnoxious. It's not cute. It's not interesting. It endears no one to you. Bucket. No more mouth. Bucket.







Post#4454 at 10-01-2013 11:14 PM by Chas'88 [at In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky joined Nov 2008 #posts 9,432]
---
10-01-2013, 11:14 PM #4454
Join Date
Nov 2008
Location
In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky
Posts
9,432

Quote Originally Posted by TimWalker View Post
Disillusionment with Boomers...how common is this among Millenials?
Pretty common. If Millennials admire their elders it's more often to be an Xer elder than a Boomer, at least in my experience.

~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."







Post#4455 at 10-02-2013 08:58 AM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
---
10-02-2013, 08:58 AM #4455
Join Date
Jul 2005
Location
NYC
Posts
10,443

Quote Originally Posted by Kepi View Post
No, I got the sarcasm, I just didn't care about it. Much like I don't care what you want. You better provide that bucket, because you got, what? A year? Tops? After that, all those things you want are irrelevant.

The mouthy Boomer routine is played out and obnoxious. It's not cute. It's not interesting. It endears no one to you. Bucket. No more mouth. Bucket.
Poor baby, another tantrum and another Waiting for Godot casualty.

'You just wait, when those Boomer meanies go away, all the magic ponies are going to come, and, we, we, we, sniff, sniff, will fly to the magical kingdom, and go on all the rides, and mommie and daddie can't stop us, you just wait, sniff, sniff...."

And what I got, dude, is facts and the brains to use them. You guys and your horseshit memes crumble against them every time.

Still waiting for one of you bright boys and girls to explain to me the "disaster" to youth caused by the ACA
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#4456 at 10-02-2013 09:26 AM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
---
10-02-2013, 09:26 AM #4456
Join Date
Jul 2005
Location
NYC
Posts
10,443

Playwrite was wrong!

Okay it can apparently happen to the best of us

Here I was laying out the upcoming battle of the airwaves in 2014 as the exchanges, insurers and much of the health industry run ads trying to get people to sign up for Obamacare while the GOP ads for the 2014 campaigns rev up and try to use Obamacare to convince voters that it is causing the world to come to an end.

Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
Imagine -

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/1...014-97588.html



The GOP is going to run political ads against Obamacare at the same time that the exchanges and the insurers are running ads to get people to sign up. That conflict will be fun to watch.

However, more importantly, by the time the 2014 campaign ads get going in late Summer, millions of people will be very pleased with having gotten their health insurance, many for the first time, at reasonable rates with many being subsidized. The GOP ads are going to try and sell that as being bad? I mean how many of their sheeple are going to be directly benefiting or have a family member or friend directly benefiting?

So they'll need to pivot to - 'This is too costly, the govt is going to go bankrupt!'

Except the federal deficit is going down, forecasts are for it to go down even more in 2014 and 2015, and a big reason for that is Obamacare - even Paul Ryan's budget keeps the many revenue generating aspects of Obamacare to get his 'balanced budget.'

Just how stupid does the GOP think there sheeple are?

Oh crap, I forgot. Never mind about that possible bright note.

On the other hand, those that could have gotten Medicaid except for a-hole GOP governors and state legislators? A group not know for high voter turn out, but with now obvious facts of how they're getting screwed by their GOP state governments? Then those that are eligible for the exchanges, particularly those that could get subsidies, in those states where in becomes obvious their GOP state governments didn't lift a hand to help? Hmm, I sure like to be involved in the voter registration drives in those states (can Wendy Davis say 'huge unregistered Hispanic voters in Texas'?).

Can we say 'Setting the stage for the 2020 Census redistricting?'
I still see that as a lot of fun on tap and potentially a lot of damage to the GOP brand as it becomes more obvious they're lying through their teeth. However, the timing is somewhat different.

The "open season" for the exchanges ends in March (also of important note, one has to be signed up by Dec 15, 2013 to get their insurance by January 1, 2014). For the 2015 insured year, open season begins again in October 2014. I think this will actually lead to the same conflicting messages for the 2014 election and perhaps in a way that will be even better for the GOP message to be out of synch with public perceptions.

This December's deadline for getting 2014 insurance in place for the new year should add to perception now emanating from the overwhelmed exchanges' websites that this is a valuable commodity. This will really get heated up for the March deadline. After that, while there will be stories of "protest non-insured" (baggers choosing their freedom fries over Obamacare), there will also be increasing stories of brain-dead (both prior and post) motorcycle accident victims that didn't get insurance and are now bankrupting their families and making everyone else's insurance rates go up. The media theme is that such people should smartin up and get insurance when the Open Season comes again in October - just weeks away from the 2014 election. Cool.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#4457 at 10-02-2013 09:58 AM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
---
10-02-2013, 09:58 AM #4457
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
'47 cohort still lost in Falwelland
Posts
16,709

Quote Originally Posted by JordanGoodspeed View Post
Colors. Or possibly colours, but not really.
I see you'll be needing several.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#4458 at 10-02-2013 10:06 AM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
---
10-02-2013, 10:06 AM #4458
Join Date
Jul 2005
Location
NYC
Posts
10,443

Yea, baby!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...ere-afraid-of/

Wonkbook: This is what the Republicans were afraid of

The juxtaposition of Tuesday's two top stories was extraordinary.


The top story all day was that Republicans had shut down the federal government because President Obama wouldn't defund or delay the Affordable Care Act. The other major story was that the government's servers were crashing because so many people were trying to see if they could get insurance through Obamacare.

So on the one hand, Washington was shut down because Republicans don't want Obamacare. On the other hand, Obamacare was nearly shut down because so many Americans wanted Obamacare.

The coming days will be a major test of the IT infrastructure supporting the Affordable Care Act. The online marketplaces were flooded with eager applicants on Tuesday -- a rush that far exceeded the expectations of marketplace directors. Reuters estimates that they got more than 10 million visits. But many of those applicants faced slow pages and error messages. Some waited hours to sign up for Obamacare. Others resolved to come back later.
The Obama administration's line is that the glitches were nothing more than a new product being hit with unexpected levels of demand. "We found out that there have been times this morning where the site has been running more slowly than it normally will," President Obama said. "The reason is because more than one million people visited healthcare.gov before 7:00 in the morning."

If that's really the reason and the technical problems were caused by nothing more serious than overwhelming traffic then the law will be fine. But if the error messages and slow pages are persistent problems in the coming weeks, that'll be a more serious problem. People will come back once or twice. But they won't struggle endlessly with a buggy web site. And if the Obama administration hasn't managed to set up a usable online marketplace given all the time they've had to prepare, then that's a tremendous failure on their part.

Sadly, the American people are still struggling with a buggy Congress -- and it's not clear any fix is in the offing. It was strange and slightly perverse to watch Obamacare open and be flooded with people desperate to sign up for health insurance even as the government closed because Republicans wanted the law ripped out, or at least delayed. In some quarters, Republicans mocked Obamacare's technical problems, but the jokes were wan: Overwhelming demand for the law is not a boon to the GOP's position.

This is, of course, precisely what Republicans were scared of: That a law they loathe would end up being enthusiastically embraced by millions of Americans -- and thus proving permanent. It's Obamacare's possible success, not its promised failures, that unnerve the GOP.

At this point, though, their fight continues even as their cause is lost. With people already signing up for insurance under Obamacare and insurers already selling insurance under Obamacare it's no longer credible to promise repeal or delay. Republicans need an actual answer for all those people.


As Tuesday proved, there are going to be problems with Obamacare, and it's nearly certain that the GOP could come up with ways to reform, improve, or even replace it if they were sufficiently committed to improving the country's health-care system. But as Tuesday also proved, millions of Americans have been waiting for something like Obamacare, and now that they've got it, they're going to want to keep it.
Now if we can just get Obamacare to stop making cats mate with dogs.

Oh, and maybe there's a message here as well for the Far Left. Obamacare is showing a huge demand by people to get coverage. Why not build on that? Why not start talking about a basic structure is now in-place for most people but we can improve on it? Why not start talking about fully fleshing that out by helping the 2% SOL folks in Red states being denied the Medicaid Expansion? Why not join in getting the 3.5% opting out to understand their obligation not only to themselves and their families but to the countrymen and stop being free loaders? Then lets begin pushing for better and better options under those exchanges that will inevitable lead to those exchanges offering a public option that could include federal support. And then...

Throwing stones against Obamacare in the last 24 hours has gotten harder and that is just getting started. Hasn't it also gotten a little more than just boring?
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#4459 at 10-02-2013 10:11 AM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
---
10-02-2013, 10:11 AM #4459
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
Meh.
Posts
12,182

Quote Originally Posted by Kepi View Post
I think both Marx & Lennon and playwrite are missing John's point by picking at the details.
I think the word you are looking for is "evading", not "missing".
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#4460 at 10-02-2013 10:17 AM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
---
10-02-2013, 10:17 AM #4460
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
'47 cohort still lost in Falwelland
Posts
16,709

Quote Originally Posted by Kepi View Post
I think both Marx & Lennon and playwrite are missing John's point by picking at the details.
No, I understand the frustration of having done the right things and not getting the oppotunities that came easily in the past. It's just that this condition is not unique, though the mechanism is. For example, we had a period of bad oppotunities too: roughly 1973-82. We also had high inflation and mortgages that were rapacious. I carried a VA mortgage at 12.25 % for several years. Very few cohorts hit the march-of-history jackpot, timing their way to the good life. Mine didn't and yours aren't either.

What was broken then is not what's broken now ... but it was broken. Does that make John's point less valid? No. But you play the game you have, and try to change it if you can. There aren't any other viable options.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#4461 at 10-02-2013 10:24 AM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
---
10-02-2013, 10:24 AM #4461
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
'47 cohort still lost in Falwelland
Posts
16,709

Quote Originally Posted by JohnMc82 View Post
Only when you quit protecting and defending the guys who stole your lunch money (hint: they don't just wear red).
I don't see many here defending the .01% that makes the rules that they get while the rest of us can pound sand. Short of taking things into our own hands, what response do you expect? The only optoins available are the ballot (I vote every time, even when the choices suck) or violence. You have the same options. SO what are your plans?
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#4462 at 10-02-2013 10:37 AM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
---
10-02-2013, 10:37 AM #4462
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
'47 cohort still lost in Falwelland
Posts
16,709

Quote Originally Posted by Copperfield View Post
Well I think what he really meant to say was that his generation worked really, really hard for their sense of entitlement and that frankly you young-uns only need to keep bailing water until such time as every last single one of them are dead and buried. After that the young can pretty much go fuck themselves.
No, I think the argument is simpler than that: carrying water tends to fall to the young, who rightly hate it. When they are old, water is carried for them. It's an ongoing social contract that, once broken, is likley to stay that way.

You can screw-over your 70-year old self if you wish, but don't claim any rights when it dawns on you that this is what you did.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#4463 at 10-02-2013 11:07 AM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
---
10-02-2013, 11:07 AM #4463
Join Date
Jul 2005
Location
NYC
Posts
10,443

Quote Originally Posted by Justin '77 View Post
I think the word you are looking for is "evading", not "missing".
My god, the irony of you saying that!

I almost barfed up a lung laughing so hard.

Care to weigh-in with facts about how the ACA is a "disaster" for the young'uns or is this just one of your drive-bys?
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#4464 at 10-02-2013 11:21 AM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
---
10-02-2013, 11:21 AM #4464
Join Date
Jul 2005
Location
NYC
Posts
10,443

Hey, my room is-

now getting crowded!


http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/02/bu...d=myyahoo&_r=0

Why the Health Care Law Scares the G.O.P.

.
.
.

And yet the argument that half the Republican Party has simply lost its mind has to be an unsatisfactory answer, especially considering the sophistication of some of the deep-pocketed backers of the Tea Party insurgency.

There is a plausible alternative to irrationality. Flawed though it may turn out to be, Obamacare, as the Affordable Care Act is popularly known, could fundamentally change the relationship between working Americans and their government. This could pose an existential threat to the small-government credo that has defined the G.O.P. for four decades.

The law is imperfect. It has dozens of complicated, interlocking parts. Half of Americans say they don’t understand how it will affect them and their family. Still, the law has many provisions that are likely to improve life for millions of Americans, including a big portion of what we know as the working middle class.

Almost two-thirds of uninsured Americans have a full-time job, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation. A further 16 percent are employed part time.

The Department of Health and Human Services recently estimated that nearly six in 10 uninsured Americans could qualify for health coverage in the insurance market for less than $100 per person per month.

According to an analysis by the Urban Institute, [b]28 million Americans would gain health insurance under Obamacare. Of these, eight million earn more than twice the poverty level of $47,100 for a family of four. A majority of those would get a subsidy to buy a plan.

As it turns out, the core Tea Party demographic — working white men between the ages of 45 and 64 — would do fairly well under the law.[Playwrite says read that line over a few times and let it sink in, if you can]

Take Missouri.[Please! ] It has about 800,000 uninsured. Almost half of them would have been eligible for expanded Medicaid benefits, had the Legislature not rejected them. Many of the rest — including families of four making up to $94,000 — will be eligible to get subsidized health insurance.

In St. Louis, for instance, a family of four making $50,000 a year will be able to buy a middle-of-the-road “silver” health plan for $282 a month and a bottom-end “bronze” plan for $32. Even Medicare recipients will get a benefit worth a few hundred dollars a year.

This could justify conservative Republicans’ greatest fears.

In 1994, when President Bill Clinton took an earlier stab at a health care overhaul, the conservative thinker William Kristol published a manifesto about why Republicans had to stop it.

“Passage of the Clinton health plan in any form would be disastrous,” Mr. Kristol wrote, italicizing for emphasis. “It would guarantee an unprecedented federal intrusion into the American economy. Its success would signal the rebirth of centralized welfare-state policy at the moment that such policy is being perceived as a failure in other areas.”


Two decades after Mr. Clinton’s ultimately failed attempt, Obamacare poses the same sort of threat.

Even Americans who say they dislike the law actually like many of its components. Nearly three-quarters approve of giving financial help to poor and moderate-income Americans to buy health insurance. Two-thirds approve of barring insurance companies from denying coverage because of somebody’s medical history. Three-quarters favor letting children stay on their parents’ insurance until they are 26.


Until now, social welfare programs in the United States have exhibited a “big hole,” Professor Skocpol said, consisting of nonpoor working-age Americans and their children. Obamacare closes a big chunk of it.

“The main beneficiaries tend to have lower wages, employed in smaller businesses that are not providing health insurance,” she said. “They are not elderly. They are also not the poorest.”

And they might be grateful to Democrats for the benefit.

To conservative Republicans, losing a large slice of the middle class to the ranks of the Democratic Party could justify extreme measures.
How long before we see protest signs at bagger rallies - "Keep the Govt Socialist Hands Off My OBAMACARE!!!"

How cool is that?!
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#4465 at 10-02-2013 11:34 AM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
---
10-02-2013, 11:34 AM #4465
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
Meh.
Posts
12,182

Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
My god, the irony of you saying that!
You use that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Care to weigh-in with facts about how the ACA is a "disaster" for the young'uns or is this just one of your drive-bys?
Why would you expect someone to present facts supporting a strawman that you invent and deploy expressly to evade addressing the actual facts that people confront you with?

That's not how strawmen work -- and I would expect someone so versed in their usage to not need that explained to him. I therefore presume that you are continuing your well-established modus operandi of lying and evading. It's worked for you so far, eh?
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#4466 at 10-02-2013 11:36 AM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
---
10-02-2013, 11:36 AM #4466
Join Date
Aug 2004
Posts
6,099

Hooray for those who the ACA will actually help. As for the millions who will get left out or under insured - that's just the price of a program passed at any price.

"Health insurance reform was never about equity, the kind that exists in the national health insurance systems of other countries where everyone is covered and entitled to the same benefits. Under Obamacare, some insurance coverage will be worse than others and will still leave families on the hook for medical bills and vulnerable when catastrophic illness strikes."


Who gets left out of Obamacare?


According to a report from the Kaiser Commission on Medicaid and the Uninsured released a few weeks ago, many of those who won’t have a chance for coverage live in Florida, Texas and Georgia.

Here’s what happens to residents in states that have opted not to expand Medicaid coverage: People with incomes between 100 and 138 percent of the federal poverty level ($15,900 for a single person and $32,500 for a family this year) can get a tax subsidy to help them buy insurance on the exchanges. But because of the way Congress crafted the law, people with incomes below the poverty level are barred from receiving subsidies in the exchanges because they were supposed to be eligible for expanded Medicaid.


In a perversity of Obamacare, this means that some of those with the lowest incomes will get no government help buying insurance. Someone who has an income that’s 99 percent of the poverty level cannot get financial assistance to purchase health insurance from an exchange, but someone whose income is 101 percent above can.


This is the opposite of what happens in means-tested programs like food stamps or supplemental security income (SSI) where people with incomes over the eligibility limit don’t qualify. When it comes to health insurance subsidies, people with incomes below the line don’t qualify.
What are their options? Basically none. Without subsidies, people in this predicament can hardly afford insurance. It’s tough even for families with much higher incomes to pay for it. That’s why Congress authorized the subsidies in the first place. These people will continue to be uninsured and can only hope that Congress changes the law or that their states have a change of heart next year when their legislatures reconvene.

Health insurance reform was never about equity, the kind that exists in the national health insurance systems of other countries where everyone is covered and entitled to the same benefits. Under Obamacare, some insurance coverage will be worse than others and will still leave families on the hook for medical bills and vulnerable when catastrophic illness strikes.

Denying Medicaid coverage and/or subsidies to the poorest of the poor makes these inequities all the more apparent. All too many states and Obama have some more explaining to do.
http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2013/09/left-obamacare.html
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#4467 at 10-02-2013 02:34 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
---
10-02-2013, 02:34 PM #4467
Join Date
Jul 2005
Location
NYC
Posts
10,443

Quote Originally Posted by Justin '77 View Post
You use that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Why would you expect someone to present facts supporting a strawman that you invent and deploy expressly to evade addressing the actual facts that people confront you with?

That's not how strawmen work -- and I would expect someone so versed in their usage to not need that explained to him. I therefore presume that you are continuing your well-established modus operandi of lying and evading. It's worked for you so far, eh?
Here we go again with the typical Justin obfuscation and misdirection.

Here, moron, is the post in question -

Quote Originally Posted by JohnMc82 View Post
Oh yeah? Median young boomers were paying 15% gross in payroll? 10% gross in student loans (after "reform")? 8% gross for health insurance premiums, just to have deductibles equal to 25% of income?

"Suck it up millies, it's just a little bit of political corruption here and there. Paying tribute to our corporate overlords is a collective responsibility and creates a greater good than us peons can recognize."

The only group that seems happy with today's premium numbers and exchange roll-out is Wall Street (and their local spokesperson, PW). The most politically connected insurers are up 2-3% since yesterday's close. Everyone else is looking for someone to blame: Republicans who didn't take advantage of Medicaid expansion, Democrats who got the ball rolling and kept pushing even after it became obvious that the bill was a disaster, old people who think it's just lazy young people/minorities/immigrants who looking for a handout and/or are complaining about paying their fair share (of the costs incurred by said old people).

Everyone's got someone to blame, everyone's got some reason to dismiss everyone else's concerns, hell, we just shut down the government... but goddamn it, by hell or high water, them investors are gonna get paid.

And no, there are still no jobs. Quit acting so entitled with your bachelor's degree and lengthy resume of unpaid and underpaid internships.
While there is truth to aspects of some of woes of youth (e.g. student debt) stated, the issue is the ACA on a thread about "national healthcare." From that standpoint, the entire rant falls apart unless one can show how the ACA is a "disaster" for our youth.

You're now the fourth or fifth moron on this forum to make this idiotic assertion and refused to back it up with any facts - you just perform the trick by your typical playground subterfuge.

Doesn't it ever bother you that you can't provide an intellectual argument that actually supports your positions but constantly have to turn to subterfuge??? Doesn't it ever bother you that once again you're going to be shown to be a complete horse's ass???

Answer the F'n question for once, you gutless wonder.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#4468 at 10-02-2013 02:42 PM by JohnMc82 [at Back in Jax joined Jan 2011 #posts 1,962]
---
10-02-2013, 02:42 PM #4468
Join Date
Jan 2011
Location
Back in Jax
Posts
1,962

Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
While there is truth to aspects of some of woes of youth (e.g. student debt) stated, the issue is the ACA on a thread about "national healthcare." From that standpoint, the entire rant falls apart unless one can show how the ACA is a "disaster" for our youth.
It's a recurring theme, but apparently you can't see the forest for the trees. We're in the middle of the worst job market in generations, civics are hit particularly hard, but the conventional boomer wisdom seems to be that civics should just chip in a little more to make everything work out. Chip in a little more of... what, exactly?

But you're not an idiot. You can't be that blind to the big picture. You know full well that this transfer of income and wealth from the young to the investment class works out for you in the short run, and you probably don't have much reason to even think about the long run.

Doesn't it ever bother you that you can't provide an intellectual argument that actually supports your positions but constantly have to turn to subterfuge??? Doesn't it ever bother you that once again you're going to be shown to be a complete horse's ass???

Answer the F'n question for once, you gutless wonder.
Does it bother you that the government exists to siphon the wealth of workers to your trust fund? How long do you think this free ride will last?
Those words, "temperate and moderate", are words either of political cowardice, or of cunning, or seduction. A thing, moderately good, is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper, is always a virtue; but moderation in principle, is a species of vice.

'82 - Once & always independent







Post#4469 at 10-02-2013 02:46 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
---
10-02-2013, 02:46 PM #4469
Join Date
Jul 2005
Location
NYC
Posts
10,443

Small minded spitefulness

Quote Originally Posted by Deb C View Post
Hooray for those who the ACA will actually help. As for the millions who will get left out or under insured - that's just the price of a program passed at any price.

"Health insurance reform was never about equity, the kind that exists in the national health insurance systems of other countries where everyone is covered and entitled to the same benefits. Under Obamacare, some insurance coverage will be worse than others and will still leave families on the hook for medical bills and vulnerable when catastrophic illness strikes."


Who gets left out of Obamacare?


http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2013/09/left-obamacare.html
I've posted this flowchart earlier -




- that not only clearly shows the huge amount of people that are going to get health insurance as a result of Obamacare but clearly shows that 2% are not getting it because of spiteful GOP state governors and legislators that are refusing to expand Medicaid.

This is the millions that Debs is bringing up, but note, nowhere does she make this FACT be known. Instead, she purposefully writes it so one would believe this lack of coverage is due to Obamacare rather that in spite (by the GOP) of Obamacare.

Debs is a small-minded spiteful propagandist of the worse sort who just can't let go of her hatred no matter how many 10s of millions are benefiting from Obama and the ACA that she reviles without question and without thinking. It's pretty sad.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#4470 at 10-02-2013 02:48 PM by JohnMc82 [at Back in Jax joined Jan 2011 #posts 1,962]
---
10-02-2013, 02:48 PM #4470
Join Date
Jan 2011
Location
Back in Jax
Posts
1,962

Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
Debs is a small-minded spiteful propagandist of the worse sort who just can't let go of her hatred no matter how many 10s of millions are benefiting from Obama and the ACA that she reviles without question and without thinking. It's pretty sad.
Citation needed: most of the increased profits here are only going to 1/2% of the population.

Who are the tens of millions benefiting when the median household still can't afford to get sick?
Last edited by JohnMc82; 10-02-2013 at 02:51 PM.
Those words, "temperate and moderate", are words either of political cowardice, or of cunning, or seduction. A thing, moderately good, is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper, is always a virtue; but moderation in principle, is a species of vice.

'82 - Once & always independent







Post#4471 at 10-02-2013 02:56 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
---
10-02-2013, 02:56 PM #4471
Join Date
Jul 2005
Location
NYC
Posts
10,443

Quote Originally Posted by JohnMc82 View Post
It's a recurring theme, but apparently you can't see the forest for the trees. We're in the middle of the worst job market in generations, civics are hit particularly hard, but the conventional boomer wisdom seems to be that civics should just chip in a little more to make everything work out. Chip in a little more of... what, exactly?

But you're not an idiot. You can't be that blind to the big picture. You know full well that this transfer of income and wealth from the young to the investment class works out for you in the short run, and you probably don't have much reason to even think about the long run.



Does it bother you that the government exists to siphon the wealth of workers to your trust fund? How long do you think this free ride will last?
I understand your grief on the economic hard times and its particular impact on the young. I support many causes that would greatly relieve that stress including dropping FICA all together, paying people to go to college, forgiving student debt, and getting general govt spending up to grow this economy and get closer to full employment.

That should give me some credentials to tell you, I'm not buying the moaning over the ACA. You tell me specifically what youth group is suffering a "disaster" specifically from the ACA.

You really think running around without health insurance is in your best interest? Do you really think those other economic issues won't pale against what will happen to you financially if you get sick or hurt enough to wind up in an emergency room and then need ambulatory care afterwards without insurance? Do you have any clue where you would wind up? I'll tell you that the last thing you will be worried about is having a job or paying your student debt.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#4472 at 10-02-2013 03:05 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
---
10-02-2013, 03:05 PM #4472
Join Date
Jul 2005
Location
NYC
Posts
10,443

You can lead a horse to water, but...

Quote Originally Posted by JohnMc82 View Post
Citation needed: most of the increased profits here are only going to 1/2% of the population.

Who are the tens of millions benefiting when the median household still can't afford to get sick?
Look at the chart, dufus.

10% of the population is going to get subsidize health insurance. Around 3 to 4 fifths of them are going to REAL insurance for less than a $100 month. Another 3% are going to get Medicaid and that could go to 5% if certain GOP a-holes capitulate. Then there is that 5% that is going to get standardize insurance that will be a big step up from the fly-by-night crap they have now and likely pay less for it.

These are 10s of millions of people.

Yes, Steve Jobs and Bill Gates made billions off of selling computer and phones; is that a reason for all the rest of us to dump our computers and cell phones into the ocean and go back to staring at camp fires in caves.

People get rich off of selling what other people want. It's been going on for awhile.

And please, tell me, what is the REALISTIC f'n alternative that you sanctimonious a-holes are going to work your fingers to the bone to make happen???

[cue the crickets]
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#4473 at 10-02-2013 03:08 PM by JohnMc82 [at Back in Jax joined Jan 2011 #posts 1,962]
---
10-02-2013, 03:08 PM #4473
Join Date
Jan 2011
Location
Back in Jax
Posts
1,962

Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
I understand your grief on the economic hard times and its particular impact on the young. I support many causes that would greatly relieve that stress including dropping FICA all together, paying people to go to college, forgiving student debt, and getting general govt spending up to grow this economy and get closer to full employment.
Yet, instead of us actually doing any of that, you're also supporting policies that do the opposite. ACA and QE continue to siphon wealth from workers to owners, and you just say"Well, we should actually do the opposite, but since that isn't possible, we should continue what we're doing."

You really think running around without health insurance is in your best interest? Do you really think those other economic issues won't pale against what will happen to you financially if you get sick or hurt enough to wind up in an emergency room and then need ambulatory care afterwards without insurance? Do you have any clue where you would wind up? I'll tell you that the last thing you will be worried about is having a job or paying your student debt.
Probably. What do you think would happen to someone with a median income and $6,000 deductible who gets sick or hurt enough to wind up in an emergency room and then need additional care afterwards? They're probably going to lose their job from missing work, and they're probably going to end up broke. What's the difference, other than the 8% premium they saved in every scenario other than the worst-case?

Americans like the American health system - until they actually get sick and/or realize how much it is costing them. Some of us have way too much personal experience dealing with doctors, office staff, and insurers to be fooled by the idea that expanding the broken parts of the system to more people is an improvement of any kind.
Those words, "temperate and moderate", are words either of political cowardice, or of cunning, or seduction. A thing, moderately good, is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper, is always a virtue; but moderation in principle, is a species of vice.

'82 - Once & always independent







Post#4474 at 10-02-2013 03:18 PM by JohnMc82 [at Back in Jax joined Jan 2011 #posts 1,962]
---
10-02-2013, 03:18 PM #4474
Join Date
Jan 2011
Location
Back in Jax
Posts
1,962

Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
10% of the population is going to get subsidize health insurance.
Ohhhh that is some funky math that requires a lot of blind faith and an absence of details.

Let's talk about details. My premium doubles, but I'm eligible for a 3% subsidy. Big win for that 10% of the population, huh?

Then there is that 5% that is going to get standardize insurance that will be a big step up from the fly-by-night crap they have now and likely pay less for it.
WOW! I'm also in the five percent, because BCBS says they can't sell me my old policy any more. Instead, they can sell me one that is a worse deal but barely meets the "minimum legislated requirements." Conveniently, this new policy also costs almost exactly what the Congress decided a median-income person could afford.

Yes, Steve Jobs and Bill Gates made billions off of selling computer and phones; is that a reason for all the rest of us to dump our computers and cell phones into the ocean and go back to staring at camp fires in caves.
Should we build monuments to the wealth and opulence of their great-grandchildren? Shall we crown them with hereditary access to the highest offices in the land? Should we use the full force of law to enforce their patents? Should we devalue wages so as to protect their poorly-picked investments?
Last edited by JohnMc82; 10-02-2013 at 03:20 PM.
Those words, "temperate and moderate", are words either of political cowardice, or of cunning, or seduction. A thing, moderately good, is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper, is always a virtue; but moderation in principle, is a species of vice.

'82 - Once & always independent







Post#4475 at 10-02-2013 03:29 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
---
10-02-2013, 03:29 PM #4475
Join Date
Jul 2005
Location
NYC
Posts
10,443

Quote Originally Posted by JohnMc82 View Post
Yet, instead of us actually doing any of that, you're also supporting policies that do the opposite. ACA and QE continue to siphon wealth from workers to owners, and you just say"Well, we should actually do the opposite, but since that isn't possible, we should continue what we're doing."
Try to stay focused. We're talking about the ACA on this thread. We can talk about the myriad of other things, like QE, on other threads where we might get somewhere as oppose to just tossing shit out.

The ACA was set up within the existing private/public health system that we have. I support single payer/public option but that did not go anywhere political then and it is miles more unlikely today. You can choose to live in magic pony land and believe otherwise, and we can end the discussion right here. Go join Debs whining crew - its really productive --- in posting horseshit on Internet boards while the world moves on.


Quote Originally Posted by JohnMc82 View Post
Probably. What do you think would happen to someone with a median income and $6,000 deductible who gets sick or hurt enough to wind up in an emergency room and then need additional care afterwards? They're probably going to lose their job from missing work, and they're probably going to end up broke. What's the difference, other than the 8% premium they saved in every scenario other than the worst-case?
Somebody making the medium income could likely financial survive the $6K hit; you do understand that is the limit that the ACA put in place - before that, it could be much higher and when your open enrollment came around the next year, you would be dropped like a hot potato. The ACA has made the ability to survive a catastrophic medical hit light years more likely for millions. Did it do it for everyone? No. Does that mean we should go back to the way it was? Answer, yes, if you are a complete moron. Should we wait until Debs gets here magic ponies to poop out single payer or her magic unicorns to poop out perfect health and nobody dies? Again, answer, yes, if you are a complete moron.

Quote Originally Posted by JohnMc82 View Post
Americans like the American health system - until they actually get sick and/or realize how much it is costing them. Some of us have way too much personal experience dealing with doctors, office staff, and insurers to be fooled by the idea that expanding the broken parts of the system to more people is an improvement of any kind.
I hope this response doesn't sound too exasperated, but here goes -

WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT THAT?

Don't feel bad about a lack of an answer; none of the other holier-than-thou know-it-all's on this forum have a clue either.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite
-----------------------------------------