Originally Posted by JohnMc82

Ohhhh that is some funky math that requires a lot of blind faith and an absence of details.

Let's talk about details. My premium doubles, but I'm eligible for a 3% subsidy.

My numbers are solid. Yours are horseshit.

Lay out how your Obamacare Health Exchange is going to double your premium.

This should be entertaining.

How much was the premium on your pre-exchange, what did that insurance cover, what were the co-pays, the deductibles?

What state are you in? What level of plan are you getting: bronze, silver, gold, platinum?

First thing you notice, is I only need to know what state and plan you choose for the Obamacare, but I need a host of shit to know what you had before.

Next, you will likely notice how F'n difficult it is to get the info on your pre-Obamacare plan.

But go ahead, enlighten us.

Originally Posted by The Rani

I think you nailed it here.
As long as cats aren't fucking dogs, I guess playdude can still sleep well at night.

I was wondering how long you could keep that misery of yours bottled up and not sharing.

It must be tough on you that Obamacare didn't get your cat to do your dog.

Originally Posted by JohnMc82

Ohhhh that is some funky math that requires a lot of blind faith and an absence of details.

Let's talk about details. My premium doubles, but I'm eligible for a 3% subsidy. Big win for that 10% of the population, huh?

WOW! I'm also in the five percent, because BCBS says they can't sell me my old policy any more. Instead, they can sell me one that is a worse deal but barely meets the "minimum legislated requirements." Conveniently, this new policy also costs almost exactly what the Congress decided a median-income person could afford.

Should we build monuments to the wealth and opulence of their great-grandchildren? Shall we crown them with hereditary access to the highest offices in the land? Should we use the full force of law to enforce their patents? Should we devalue wages so as to protect their poorly-picked investments?

Are you in Florida? If you are, then you are among the worst-served in the nation. The exchange there is designed to hurt you. Rick Scott wanted insurance pain, and he knows how to inflict it. We are covered by BCBS of Florida at the moment, but they went off the rails. Next year we will be covered by Cigna. It's an employer policy, but it isn't as generous as last year's BCBS policy.

I want to check healthcare.gov to see if my employer-based plan is my best option (it should be, but who knows). The website is slammed.

QE is not ACA. QE *is* allowing funds that could go to productive enterprise to go straight to the casino. Fiscal stimulus is what is needed to break out of this liquidity trap. Fiscal stimulus is being held in check by the same stupidity that ACA has faced- and ACA is nowhere near what is needed to fully address the healtcare mess. It is simply the worst of all possible better futures.

The breaking of the sound barrier was the SCOTUS ruling, killing off the last stand against a national healthcare system in *some* form.

THAT created the Scream Of Ultimate Suffering from the reactionaries. They would rather take the US into bankruptcy, than go quietly. The liberal elements that wanted single-payer felt betrayed, the Administration gave as much as they could to get ACA passed, with the insurance companies licking their chops. But the reactionaries DID see something that the single payer advocates did not: The end of the line for themselves. The Supreme Court said that you are goddamn well your brother's keeper. And you will pay the frakking taxes for someone else's health care.

Hence The Scream Of Ultimate Suffering. A generation from now, people will get a better national healthcare system. It will evolve. And the Overton Window will swing back. Better death now, than to lose the Civil War again.

Originally Posted by The Rani

I think you nailed it here.
As long as cats aren't fucking dogs, I guess playdude can still sleep well at night.

I get the feeling, from the constant screeching and panicked tone coming from him, that sleeping well might be one thing pw isn't doing these days.

Originally Posted by playwrite

My numbers are solid. Yours are horseshit.

^^Yet another assertion tossed up by a confirmed, demonstrated liar.^^

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

No, I think the argument is simpler than that: carrying water tends to fall to the young, who rightly hate it. When they are old, water is carried for them. It's an ongoing social contract that, once broken, is likely to stay that way.

No. Carrying water is a task forced on the young by those who want what they got. There is no social contract. Never was. Oh it sure does make for a nice narrative but it is a complete fabrication. You never signed this mysterious "social contract", I never signed this "social contract" and the millennials certainly never signed any "social contract."

The only responsibility for my elders that I recognize is my own conscious choice to help those elders in my family who may need it and those elders whom have earned my respect. I make those choices out of love, not charity. You however are (quite frankly) not my responsibility. Solve your own end of life problems, or (if you really want my help) earn my respect. How does that work for a "contract" between you and me? Deal?

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

You can screw-over your 70-year old self if you wish, but don't claim any rights when it dawns on you that this is what you did.

Really? Your suggestion for milennials is that they should utterly annihilate their own generation to keep your generation comfortable, because they might want to dine on the scraps you left behind someday? How remarkably self-centered.

Originally Posted by Justin '77

I get the feeling, from the constant screeching and panicked tone coming from him, that sleeping well might be one thing pw isn't doing these days.

I sleep fine, but that's because, unlike you, I don't spend my days lying my ass off and obfuscating to cover up lack of facts and logic.

Glad to see you and Rani back together sharing in your misery. Maybe get a room?

Originally Posted by Justin '77

^^Yet another assertion tossed up by a confirmed, demonstrated liar.^^

You know the old saying about first, just stop digging...?

You're now laying one lie on top of another.

What number of mine is false? What number of John's has been supported?

Let's see the next slimy wiggle you attempt.

Originally Posted by Copperfield

No. Carrying water is a task forced on the young by those who want what they got. There is no social contract. Never was. Oh it sure does make for a nice narrative but it is a complete fabrication. You never signed this mysterious "social contract", I never signed this "social contract" and the millennials certainly never signed any "social contract."

The only responsibility for my elders that I recognize is my own conscious choice to help those elders in my family who may need it and those elders whom have earned my respect. I make those choices out of love, not charity. You however are (quite frankly) not my responsibility. Solve your own end of life problems, or (if you really want my help) earn my respect. How does that work for a "contract" between you and me? Deal?


Really? Your suggestion for milennials is that they should utterly annihilate their own generation to keep your generation comfortable, because they might want to dine on the scraps you left behind someday? How remarkably self-centered.

Sorry dude, you signed on by living here and using the state's currency - it comes with enormous benefits to you.

You do have the choice of living somewhere else and using that state's currency. Don't let the door slam you in the ass on the way out.

-----------------------------
And check out that hyperbole! Whoa!
And I thought Obamacare making the cat make the dog was over the top! I should have know better.

All Millies prepare to meet your doom, AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!
Let's check back in a year and see how that worked out for ya.

You might want to keep the following in mind as you read this article:

"Remember, the primary architect of Obamacare was Liz Fowler - the insurance industry executive who temporarily took a government post to write the new law, and then quickly moved back into health care lobbying. She was ably assisted by an battalion of her fellow insurance industry cronies, who in 2009 deployed their army of lobbyists to shape the underlying health care legislation. She was also backed up by many other Obama administration officials who worked on the legislation and then immediately headed to the lucrative world of insurance-industry lobbying."

Obamacare: The Gift To Insurers That Will Keep On Giving

"In this made-for-TV cartoon series, the battle over the new law has been depicted as a fight between competing small guys. Bam! Democrats insist opponents of the law don't care about the uninsured, even though the new law will leave millions of people without health coverage. Ker-pow! Republicans claim that proponents of the law don't care about struggling businesses, even though America's for-profit employer-based system putsU.S. businesses at a competitive disadvantage."

"Now, as a Wiley Coyote government hurtles toward another fiscal cliff and as cable news substitutes red-versus-blue prognostication for fact-based health policy reporting, few in D.C. bother to mention that Obamacare really isn't designed with patients, most employers or even health care in mind. It is primarily designed to further enrich one tiny handful of businesses: health insurance corporations."

One way is to look at what Obamacare is, and what it is not.

It most definitely is the legislative manifestation of the insurance industry's biggest wishes of all, providing massive no-strings-attached subsidies to the industry, and using government power to force citizens to become the industry's permanent customers. It also is not what the insurance industry most fears - it is not only not a single-payer system, it doesn't even include a public option that would allow people to altogether avoid the rapacious private-insurance industry. It also does not prevent insurance companies from employing their typicaldevil-in-the-details tactics - the kind that provide the patina of health insurance while limiting access to actual health services.

Asking exactly why Obamacare was structured like this is another way to see that the law is really a gift to insurers hidden in the gaudy wrapping of altruism. That's because the answer to that critical "why" question is simple: the law was written by the insurance industry.

https://www.nsfwcorp.com/dispatch/ob...1eefc223396c4/

- just in case anyone was really wondering -

http://www.wftv.com/ap/ap/financial-...a-month/nbC3r/

Cheapest Fla. health plan costs $86 a month

ORLANDO, Fla. — Technology problems plagued a federal website for the second day as Floridians tried to browse their insurance options under President Barack Obama's health care law. Federal health officials blamed the glitches on high web traffic, not hidden flaws.

Amid the problems, federal health officials refused to say how many people enrolled online but instead played up the high level of interest in signing up for health plans under the Affordable Care Act. However, the number of those actually able to enroll appeared to be low in Florida.

Several community health centers around the state, including ones in Miami and central Florida, were able to sign a small number of consumers up for health plans online. Federal health officials said they were working on the kinks and promised improvements in the coming hours and days.

"It was quick...we may have had a good 20 minutes or so before the system started to get funky," said Andy Behrman, president and CEO of Florida Association of Community Health Centers.

Workers planned for a possible web crash before launch day and printed hard copies of the online applications which they also translated into Creole for their Haitian clients.

"We don't care about the politics. This is about people so we were trying to make it easy for the patients," said Behrman.
It was a different story at other South Florida community health centers.

"We were not able to enroll but we were able to set appointments for the rest of this week and help the people gather the required documentation," said Jerson Dulis, a certified application counselor with Broward Community & Family Health Centers, Inc.
Forty-six year-old Shelly Armand was hoping to sign up for health insurance a community health center in South Miami on Wednesday. Counselors took her information and said they would call her when the website was running smoothly.

Armand, who works full-time and doesn't have insurance, spends more than $75 a month on medications for diabetes and hypertension.
"It's hard for me," she said. "With this Obamacare, it would give us a boost for those of us that need it."

Many Floridians were still unaware how much the new health plans would cost because they couldn't access www.healthcare.gov.

The most expensive health insurance premiums for individuals in Florida in the new government-run online marketplace are in the Florida Keys, and the cheapest premiums are for a bare-bones plan offered in Broward County, according to federal data released late Tuesday.

The state's cheapest monthly premiums were for plans covering only catastrophic emergencies in Broward County. Those plans offered by insurer Coventry One in Broward County would cost a 27-year-old almost $86 a month and a 50-year-old would pay $146 monthly. The state's most expensive premiums, for a plan offered by Florida Blue, have the highest level of benefits, known as a platinum plan. It would cost a 27-year-old individual almost $460 a month and a 50-year-old Floridian $782 a month.

Overall, the most expensive premiums in Florida were for platinum and gold plans found in the Florida Keys, Miami, Fort Lauderdale and Lakeland. The least expensive premiums were for bronze and catastrophic plans scattered throughout metro Tampa, Jacksonville, metro Pensacola and South Florida.

But insurers caution consumers to consider more than just the bottom line. If you want to stay with a particular doctor's network or have around-the-clock customer service, it may cost more. Alternatively, even though a premium may be low, there could be a $5,000 deductible before the plan kicks in.

Roughly half of Florida's 3.5 million uninsured residents may be eligible for federal subsidies to help them purchase insurance, according to the liberal advocacy group Families USA. But the amount will vary widely depending on income, location, the plan, family size, age, and even tobacco use. Florida residents can choose from 102 plans, the second-highest of any state.

Insurance plans offered through the exchange have undergone a major upgrade. As of Jan. 1, insurers can no longer turn away people with pre-existing medical conditions, and they will be limited in what they can charge to older policy holders. Consumers' financial exposure will be capped. Insurers are also required to offer beefed up benefits under the plans, so while prices may increase, consumers will be getting a meatier product.

It's too soon to tell whether enough people will sign up for insurance through the new federal marketplace to make the law successful.

Originally Posted by Copperfield

No. Carrying water is a task forced on the young by those who want what they got. There is no social contract. Never was. Oh it sure does make for a nice narrative but it is a complete fabrication. You never signed this mysterious "social contract", I never signed this "social contract" and the millennials certainly never signed any "social contract."

Look back a few generations and see if the generations that decided to go it alone did well or not. That's the broader societal social contract. Closer to home is the social contract you make with your parents and children. That Big Contract is implied. So far, Gen X hasn't done much, so the issue is still open. Boomers have done much, some of it negative and some positive. We're too diverse and pig-headed to be consistent. I suspect our payback will be similar ... sketchy and dicey.

Originally Posted by Copperfield ...

The only responsibility for my elders that I recognize is my own conscious choice to help those elders in my family who may need it and those elders whom have earned my respect. I make those choices out of love, not charity. You however are (quite frankly) not my responsibility. Solve your own end of life problems, or (if you really want my help) earn my respect. How does that work for a "contract" between you and me? Deal?

Well I'm glad you at least admit to having parents and other elders, though some seem to be held in contempt. Personally, I neither need nor desire anything from you on any level beyond the basic citizenship level. The Lost were a mixed bag on this acount. See if you guys can do a bit better.

Originally Posted by Copperfield ...

Really? Your suggestion for milennials is that they should utterly annihilate their own generation to keep your generation comfortable, because they might want to dine on the scraps you left behind someday? How remarkably self-centered.

No, I suggest that they take charge and remake the world. It's not easy, and we're a bad example of how to do it, but they can save themselves if anyone can. There needs to be a focus on creating jobs that pay well, and higher taxes will be part of that. I'll pay mine.

Originally Posted by Deb C

You might want to keep the following in mind as you read this article:

"Remember, the primary architect of Obamacare was Liz Fowler - the insurance industry executive who temporarily took a government post to write the new law, and then quickly moved back into health care lobbying. She was ably assisted by an battalion of her fellow insurance industry cronies, who in 2009 deployed their army of lobbyists to shape the underlying health care legislation. She was also backed up by many other Obama administration officials who worked on the legislation and then immediately headed to the lucrative world of insurance-industry lobbying."

Obamacare: The Gift To Insurers That Will Keep On Giving


One way is to look at what Obamacare is, and what it is not.




https://www.nsfwcorp.com/dispatch/ob...1eefc223396c4/

It must be hard to know that millions are crashing websites to sign onto something you keep trashing.

But again, maybe not so hard when one is spiteful and small-minded and just can't let ago of that built up hatin.

Originally Posted by The Rani

You're assuming that he DOES have a conscience.
I guess the need to build a strawman (or a horny strawcat) also implies the presence of a conscience.

And that strawman would be what exactly?

Or is this just pillow talk between two miserable people?

Maybe this is why certain people keep promoting this scam, they are heavily invested in these corporations.

The visuals since the day Obama signed his health insurance bill into law tell this part of the sordid tale. Just take a gander at the stock-price graphs of major insurers like United Health, WellPoint, Aetna, Humana, Cigna,WellCare and Magellan Health Services (for starters). They all show the same thing - a sky's-the-limit curve up toward profit heaven. Forbes' Robert Lenzernotes that in just this year alone, "The value of the S& P health insurance index has gained 43%" - aka more than double the gains of the S&P 500 as a whole. It's the same trend in the last 24 hours, too. That's right, for all the talk of those exchanges finally cracking down on insurance industry profiteering, insurers saw stock price spikes the instant the exchanges went online.

It all highlights what a recent J.P. Morgan report suggests: namely, that Wall Street sees the exchanges as opportunities for even more profiteering than ever. Why? Because, in the words of one giddy investor, the launch of Obamacare represents "the moment of the sun for the (insurance) industry.” That's especially the case with the Obama administration now waiving some of the relatively few high-profile consumer protections that progressive legislators managed to sneak into law.

Originally Posted by playwrite

Poor baby, another tantrum and another Waiting for Godot casualty.

'You just wait, when those Boomer meanies go away, all the magic ponies are going to come, and, we, we, we, sniff, sniff, will fly to the magical kingdom, and go on all the rides, and mommie and daddie can't stop us, you just wait, sniff, sniff...."

And what I got, dude, is facts and the brains to use them. You guys and your horseshit memes crumble against them every time.

Still waiting for one of you bright boys and girls to explain to me the "disaster" to youth caused by the ACA

No dude, what you got is lip and nobody willing to listen. Times wasting. Bucket.

Originally Posted by Justin '77

^^Yet another assertion tossed up by a confirmed, demonstrated liar.^^

Speaking of his lies, I've noticed him pushing this well-rehearsed lie on several occasions already:

Originally Posted by playwrite

The top story all day was that Republicans had shut down the federal government because President Obama wouldn't defund or delay the Affordable Care Act. The other major story was that the government's servers were crashing because so many people were trying to see if they could get insurance through Obamacare.

Several of his owners have been saying much of the same things. The narrative states that "the servers are crashing because so many people were trying to sign up for insurance."

His owners wish to imply that the high traffic was generated by people signing up for insurance. We know this isn't true though. For instance this person generated traffic to the servers however they never had any intention of "signing up for insurance." Neither did this person. Neither did I when I went bumping around their site yesterday. The government has no hope of competing with the insurance I currently have (the preliminary numbers reported in the media were hysterically bad). I wanted to see those poor government human resources databases crumble (fear not though, I am quite certain that NSA database servers have far better administrators and much fatter pipes). Very entertaining stuff for the most part.

Certainly some people wanted to buy insurance through the exchanges. Many others were there for informational reasons (comparing prices to current plans or just curious how bad people in their state were going to get fucked). Some were media types working on stories or filling time on TV. Many others were people who didn't want to buy insurance through the exchanges but who are being forced to by the usual coercive means. Hell, a full 25% so far have already figured out that just eating the fine this year is way cheaper than any of the bad exchange policies offered.

Originally Posted by playwrite

Sorry dude, you signed on by living here and using the state's currency - it comes with enormous benefits to you.

You do have the choice of living somewhere else and using that state's currency. Don't let the door slam you in the ass on the way out.

Oh hey bitch. That's another nice example of make-believe. Thanks for sharing it with the class!

Originally Posted by The Rani

Playdude, I'm done talking with you.
Thanks to John's insights, I've realized that you're only interested in convincing yourself that you're right. Use someone else as your punching bag.

Punching bag? That is being really disrespectful to punching bags everywhere - they at least put up some effort at defending their existence.

Originally Posted by Copperfield

Speaking of his lies, I've noticed him pushing this well-rehearsed lie on several occasions already:



Several of his owners have been saying much of the same things. The narrative states that "the servers are crashing because so many people were trying to sign up for insurance."

His owners wish to imply that the high traffic was generated by people signing up for insurance. We know this isn't true though. For instance this person generated traffic to the servers however they never had any intention of "signing up for insurance." Neither did this person. Neither did I when I went bumping around their site yesterday. The government has no hope of competing with the insurance I currently have (the preliminary numbers reported in the media were hysterically bad). I wanted to see those poor government human resources databases crumble (fear not though, I am quite certain that NSA database servers have far better administrators and much fatter pipes). Very entertaining stuff for the most part.

Certainly some people wanted to buy insurance through the exchanges. Many others were there for informational reasons (comparing prices to current plans or just curious how bad people in their state were going to get fucked). Some were media types working on stories or filling time on TV. Many others were people who didn't want to buy insurance through the exchanges but who are being forced to by the usual coercive means. Hell, a full 25% so far have already figured out that just eating the fine this year is way cheaper than any of the bad exchange policies offered.

You all either have no brains or no shame; likely a little of both.

You put in writing that I'm lying about something that anyone can simple take 10 seconds to Google to see I'm not.

Sure there's some glitches, a rollout of this magnitude has never been done before. But the real deal is the exchanges are being overwhelmed by people trying to sign on to get the benefits offered by Obamacare.

Only a blind ideologue idiot, like yourself, would think that's a bad sign for Obamacare.

This is all making you a-holes miserable and it's only going to get worse for both you and the clowns you sent to Congress. Makes me smile.

As for the opting out, I think Colbert has it covered -

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-col...on-opportunity

Originally Posted by Copperfield

Oh hey bitch. That's another nice example of make-believe. Thanks for sharing it with the class!

I'm always amused with what the brainless turn to when they've got nothing left.

I don't beat up on the clueless as a rule, but given that you all our 1st class a-holes as well, makes it tremendously fun for me.

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

No, I understand the frustration of having done the right things and not getting the oppotunities that came easily in the past. It's just that this condition is not unique, though the mechanism is. For example, we had a period of bad oppotunities too: roughly 1973-82. We also had high inflation and mortgages that were rapacious. I carried a VA mortgage at 12.25 % for several years. Very few cohorts hit the march-of-history jackpot, timing their way to the good life. Mine didn't and yours aren't either.

What was broken then is not what's broken now ... but it was broken. Does that make John's point less valid? No. But you play the game you have, and try to change it if you can. There aren't any other viable options.

Sure there is: straight up robbery. When the contact breaks down, you got a lot of options. If Millennials future solvency is continued to be threatened by their parent's arguments and terrible ideas, they'll just consider the deal broken and plunder. Civics don't have that need for purity that prophets do. If their continued livelihood means pulling a heist in their parents, I more or less expect them to smile while they do it.

Originally Posted by Kepi

No dude, what you got is lip and nobody willing to listen. Times wasting. Bucket.

Losing one's faux worldview in the face of unrelenting facts is pretty traumatic.

I agree, move on, give that brain some rest, before you try stretching it again. You wouldn't want to hurt anything particularly if you're one of the boneheads that opt's out of Obamacare.

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

Look back a few generations and see if the generations that decided to go it alone did well or not. That's the broader societal social contract. Closer to home is the social contract you make with your parents and children. That Big Contract is implied. So far, Gen X hasn't done much, so the issue is still open. Boomers have done much, some of it negative and some positive. We're too diverse and pig-headed to be consistent. I suspect our payback will be similar ... sketchy and dicey.

I never suggested "going it alone." However that doesn't imply a contract between two people or groups of people, to the contrary. A contract implies that two or more parties agreed to conditions that benefit both. The system you so desperately want to keep pushing however will only ever benefit you. The other party (the rest of us) never agreed to the terms of that system. Indeed several folks here who are the most hurt by your crumbling system and your desperation to keep it afloat have been telling you exactly that. Your answer is still that younger folks should eagerly impale themselves on your sword simply for some silly notion that they owe you and that someday people who don't exist might owe them through a system that might not even exist by then. How dare you ask them to put their lives on hold so they can serve you.

No, I think you are going to have to cough up the goods yourselves this time. Think of it as a character-building-once-in-a-lifetime experience.

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

Well I'm glad you at least admit to having parents and other elders, though some seem to be held in contempt. Personally, I neither need nor desire anything from you on any level beyond the basic citizenship level. The Lost were a mixed bag on this account. See if you guys can do a bit better.

Those worthy of contempt I hold in contempt, those worthy of regard, I hold in regard. That's a standard practice for me regardless of the age of the individual. I noticed that you were very close to offering me the same courtesy right up to the very end when you felt the need to hold onto that tired, old fantasy comfort-blanket of the state owning "citizens." Ah yes, "basic citizenship." Give us what we want because we tell you to.

Rather than sitting across the table from each other as simple equals, you need additional conditions and caveats. That's unfortunate really.

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

No, I suggest that they take charge and remake the world. It's not easy, and we're a bad example of how to do it, but they can save themselves if anyone can. There needs to be a focus on creating jobs that pay well, and higher taxes will be part of that. I'll pay mine.

No. For the first time in their lives, they need to be allowed to do as they please and let the chips fall where they may.