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Thread: It's time for national healthcare - Page 187







Post#4651 at 10-09-2013 11:23 AM by The Wonkette [at Arlington, VA 1956 joined Jul 2002 #posts 9,209]
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The fact that North Carolina has now suspended WIC benefits is going to do wonders for their Medicaid spending. Bye-bye prenatal nutrition assistance and other services for low-income pregnant women.
I want people to know that peace is possible even in this stupid day and age. Prem Rawat, June 8, 2008







Post#4652 at 10-09-2013 11:38 AM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Wonkette View Post
The fact that North Carolina has now suspended WIC benefits is going to do wonders for their Medicaid spending. Bye-bye prenatal nutrition assistance and other services for low-income pregnant women.
In NC, it's a train wreck where the engineer and brakeman gleefully join the crowd of on-lookers as the wreck approaches.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#4653 at 10-09-2013 12:13 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
You are a slow learner.
Yes, he is, particularly in geography.

Maybe you can tutor him on how to find magic pony lands?
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#4654 at 10-09-2013 12:50 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by JordanGoodspeed View Post
By relying I meant "We the People", who collectively if unconsciously make the system what it is today. My point was that most medical problems could be solved much more cheaply at a local level by somebody with a BS and a medicine cabinet, like my aforementioned skin tag. Doing so frees up scarce resources to devote to people with serious problems.

We've already established that you agree with me on this so I don't really know what where you're going with this. Is it the patient's fault if they're poor, sick, or both? Maybe, but I don't really see how that is all that relevant to a policy debate, unless we want to start denying people, say, cancer treatment if they smoked. But, if you like, sure, fuck people who blame the patient.

You happy?
Happy? Most of the time.

Yes, I think we are in general agreement. Just using you to think out loud on this; hope you don't mind.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that it is human nature to seek the best care possible, and they shouldn't be faulted for that.

However, whatever health care system/policy is attempted has to take that into account and in doing so will ALWAYS piss somebody off - even me if the person's health that is in question is myself or a loved one. However, the adults in the room designing the system have to proceed with something. Limited coverage is going to be a factor in any system, whether private or public. I think the emotional, rather intellectual, acceptance of that fact is at the heart of just about any complaint including the "what do ya mean my premiums are that high?!" - it's "high" because the system has decided to accept some level of high cost coverage.

That is what is at the heart of the "demand side" of health care. I don't know of any system, public or private, in the world that ignores this side of the equation, i.e. doesn't limit coverage to some degree and the degree of those limits having consequences for the taxes or premiums that pay for that coverage.

This takes some of the "magic" out of single payer (or it's poor sibling, public option), but I still believe those public models offer a better choice. It's in part the savings from the greater efficiencies, but one should not be fooled into thinking it also provides the "benefit" of limited coverage being more obtuse and difficult to bitch about than the more obvious coverage limitations of the 'evil private insurers.'

The other thing to notice is how people want to flip the discussion over to the supply side of the equation (e.g., doctors' salaries, cheaper alternatives for primary care). This is often presented as being the "real discussion" on health care costs rather than on just health insurance (public or private) costs. Talking about how to reduce the costs of supply is fine and worthwhile, but to believe it is a substitute rather than an addition to talking about the demand side is not going to get one very far. It's a lot like having a store and trying to decide to stock up on cheap goods or expensive goods and not having a clue as to how much money your customers likely have. The customers are going to want the best you got, if they have a way (if the system allows) them to have it.

Again, just thinking out loud.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#4655 at 10-09-2013 01:15 PM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
They already do a lot of that kind of screening with organ transplants.
Although, if I remember correctly, Larry Hagman worked his way through 2 new livers while actively drinking, which pissed a lot of people off because they felt he was given preferential treatment due to his money/celebrity.

ETA:
Just looked it up, all I can find is that he had one transplant and quit drinking immediately afterwards.
Maybe the uproar was because he got one so quickly, while there were so many other people waiting. Along with the fact that he made himself sick by abusing alcohol, as opposed to others on the waiting list who didn't.
The same thing happened with Steve Jobs. Because he had a personal jet, his name was on numerous transplant lists around the country. Considering the fact that you have a certain amount of time to arrive at the hospital for a transplant, a personal jet is quite the leg up on others.

Maybe I'm wrong for feeling this way, but I do resent people who ruin their livers by drinking excessively, are given a new one, then go back to drinking after they have been given a chance at a new life. There are too many people needing transplants, and too few organ donors, to give them to the ungrateful.
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#4656 at 10-09-2013 01:27 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by Justin '77 View Post
Plus, when anyone except an American gets a brain tumor, they don't come around to playwrite's assumption, either. Or if they did, it would likely be looked at by their doctor as a likely symptom of the tumor. Doctors in civilized places with functioning medical care paradigms don't make, nor do they expect or need to make, even remotely that kind of money.
There are a number of reasons why our system generates physician pay at those levels:
  1. We do fee for service, and he docs learn quickly how to maximise that eqation
  2. It benefits insurers too. Most drive cost inflaion by authorizing the payment of fees "not more than X% greater than similar fees in the previous year".
  3. We make becoming a doctor very difficult and costly, guarnateeing that docs look at the boolsas much as their patients. See 1 and 2 for more details.
  4. We also raise the profession much higher on the status line than justified by any measure.
  5. And for good measure, we expose doctors to the legal system far more than most porfessions.


I assume we can see how to eliminate most of those effects, but we don't. Too many people and organizations benefit.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#4657 at 10-09-2013 01:57 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
You are a slow learner.
Nah. I just like to occasionally let my optimism override my sense when it comes to people. It's a character flaw I have no intention of changing.
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#4658 at 10-09-2013 02:05 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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Quote Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon View Post
There are a number of reasons why our system generates physician pay at those levels:
  1. We do fee for service, and he docs learn quickly how to maximize that equation
  2. It benefits insurers too. Most drive cost inflation by authorizing the payment of fees "not more than X% greater than similar fees in the previous year".
  3. We make becoming a doctor very difficult and costly, guaranteeing that docs look at the bills as much as their patients. See 1 and 2 for more details.
  4. We also raise the profession much higher on the status line than justified by any measure.
  5. And for good measure, we expose doctors to the legal system far more than most professions.


I assume we can see how to eliminate most of those effects, but we don't. Too many people and organizations benefit.
Undoubtedly. There are any number (like, pretty much every other one out there) of ways for medical systems to be organized that avoid the crazy-high-prices dysfunction which characterized the American one.
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#4659 at 10-09-2013 03:24 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by Justin '77 View Post
Nah. I just like to occasionally let my optimism override my sense when it comes to people. It's a character flaw I have no intention of changing.
No, that would be your inability to recognize the significance to your belief system of not being able to pin on anyone's map, historical or current, your magic pony land.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#4660 at 10-09-2013 03:56 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
No, that would be your inability to recognize the significance to your belief system of not being able to pin on anyone's map, historical or current, your magic pony land.
See? And yet I still engage with you. Truly, I am the patron saint of heads-banging-walls.
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#4661 at 10-09-2013 04:00 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by Justin '77 View Post
Undoubtedly. There are any number (like, pretty much every other one out there) of ways for medical systems to be organized that avoid the crazy-high-prices dysfunction which characterized the American one.
Just remember, this is what ad hoc, private sector solutions often look like. The system just grew into its present form, when the need to cover high cost procedures got the Blues going. The rest, as they say, is history.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#4662 at 10-09-2013 04:04 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by Justin '77 View Post
Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
No, that would be your inability to recognize the significance to your belief system of not being able to pin on anyone's map, historical or current, your magic pony land.
See? And yet I still engage with you. Truly, I am the patron saint of heads-banging-walls.
Not to spin this too far off center, but, typically, only lovers have spats that last this long. So, knowing you are both otherwise engaged, it has to be thrill of the game. No one else is listening anymore, but feel free to carry-on.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#4663 at 10-09-2013 04:24 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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Quote Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon View Post
Not to spin this too far off center, but, typically, only lovers have spats that last this long. So, knowing you are both otherwise engaged, it has to be thrill of the game. No one else is listening anymore, but feel free to carry-on.
Not sure about pw, but I'm just in it for the making-up part.
Last edited by Justin '77; 10-09-2013 at 04:32 PM.
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#4664 at 10-09-2013 05:13 PM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
Then there are the stories of folks in poor countries selling their organs to the highest bidder. I'm not sure how many of those stories are true, but something like that happening even once is appalling.
But if you start resenting people who make themselves sick, that's a long list of resentments. It's probably better to let it go, and leave them to their own Karma.
Your correct. I'm most likely just reacting to my raw nerve after hearing today that a member of our local support group died this week because she couldn't get a transplant in time to save her.
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#4665 at 10-10-2013 10:19 AM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
Holding people accountable is another story. Transplant lists do take into account how well people take care of their bodies, and I'm sure that more health insurance companies will start doing the same when they set rates. Nothing wrong with that at all, IMO.
There is a recent case of someone, right here in our area, who was given a transplant who had ruined his liver by drinking. He didn't even have a job because alcohol was more important than showing up at work. It just so happened, that his in-laws were super rich and paid cash fro his transplant. He is rejecting his new liver because he went back to drinking shortly after the transplant.

Another factor in receiving a transplant, is not only the ability to prove you can afford one, but also the ability to pay for the after care. The prescriptions are extremely expensive, even with so called insurance. So in some instances, transplants are given to those who can most afford them. Not always the case, but way too often.
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#4666 at 10-10-2013 11:06 AM by JohnMc82 [at Back in Jax joined Jan 2011 #posts 1,962]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
Transplant lists do take into account how well people take care of their bodies, and I'm sure that more health insurance companies will start doing the same when they set rates. Nothing wrong with that at all, IMO.
Well, the new law doesn't agree with you. The insurers had to get rid of all the questions about personal habits when they got rid of the questions about pre-existing conditions. Now, insurers won't be able to "discriminate" against someone's poor diet and lack of physical activity.

Health plans will be allowed to adjust premiums based only on:

  • Whether you have an individual or family plan
  • Where you live, since medical costs are higher in some areas than others
  • Your age
  • Your current and past use of cigarettes or any other tobacco product

I'm pretty sure that's a big part of where my premium increase came from. I used to get discounts on premium quotes when we got to the part about height/weight/diet/activity level, and now I have to pay more than the 400 pound guy in the wheel chair because I'm still smoking 6-8 cigarettes a day. I totally get that smoking is a useless and destructive vice, and that there are costs associated with that choice, but why do we have to pick it out as the only choice a person is expected to take responsibility for when it comes to their health?

Being healthy is definitely it's own reward, and I'd love to really feel like I'm helping other people accomplish that, but, I have seriously problems with the incentives created or mitigated by this law.

  • Democrats no longer have an incentive to "fix healthcare in America," they have an incentive to justify the current system.
  • Patients have less financial incentive to watch their weight & diet.
  • Insurers have an incentive to spend as much as possible since their total profits are a fixed percentage of total spending.


I'll add another prediction for a future headline: "Healthcare costs hit new record; exceed 20% of U.S. GDP"
Those words, "temperate and moderate", are words either of political cowardice, or of cunning, or seduction. A thing, moderately good, is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper, is always a virtue; but moderation in principle, is a species of vice.

'82 - Once & always independent







Post#4667 at 10-10-2013 02:22 PM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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Quote Originally Posted by Deb C View Post
There is a recent case of someone, right here in our area, who was given a transplant who had ruined his liver by drinking. He didn't even have a job because alcohol was more important than showing up at work. It just so happened, that his in-laws were super rich and paid cash fro his transplant. He is rejecting his new liver because he went back to drinking shortly after the transplant.

Another factor in receiving a transplant, is not only the ability to prove you can afford one, but also the ability to pay for the after care. The prescriptions are extremely expensive, even with so called insurance. So in some instances, transplants are given to those who can most afford them. Not always the case, but way too often.
What a waste! First, a wasted life due to alcoholism (the fellow never grew out of it) -- and then getting a clean liver only to abuse it.

It's too bad that he didn't get aversion therapy before his liver got really bad.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#4668 at 10-10-2013 02:24 PM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
Silly me. I should have known that Frito-Lay and Anheuser-Busch would have something to say about the way that the new law was written.
Frito-Lay is a division of Pepsico, so there's another agribusiness giant pumping huge quantities of corn sweeteners into American digestive tracts.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#4669 at 10-10-2013 02:31 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by pbrower2a View Post
Frito-Lay is a division of Pepsico, so there's another agribusiness giant pumping huge quantities of corn sweeteners into American digestive tracts.
I looked at soft drinks recently trying to pick one out for a party, and I gave up; it's all nothing but corn syrup.

Of course I ended up buying some cheetos instead. Oh well!

John Mc82 has a point and I'm not sure I can answer it. It's good for people to be covered, but we have so many forces encouraging us to abuse our bodies, that sickness is not just a circumstance to be insured against, but something we do to ourselves and that corporate America facilitates. I think the new law covers prevention and alternative treatments, but being covered may not be an incentive to take care of ourselves.
Last edited by Eric the Green; 10-10-2013 at 02:33 PM.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#4670 at 10-10-2013 02:59 PM by Calafia [at joined Jul 2013 #posts 52]
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Japanese people smoke like a chimney and still far outlive us. Healthy French can't be ripped from wine. Islanders were obese before the advent of junk food. And Indigenous Africans move to the States yet magically get the same medical symptoms as indigenous "black" Americans such as high blood pressure. Keep thinking this has more to do with "lifestyle" than inequality.







Post#4671 at 10-10-2013 04:08 PM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
I looked at soft drinks recently trying to pick one out for a party, and I gave up; it's all nothing but corn syrup.
I stick to diet soda and "sun" tea. Of course if one has gout, alcohol is out of the question.

Of course I ended up buying some cheetos instead. Oh well!
Meat snacks are probably the worst for calories. Have you ever seen the ads for one beef jerky brand? Doing something nasty to a medium-to-large animal is incredibly stupid. Just think what sort of demographics apply to people who buy the stuff -- not exactly Harvard material. Maybe "Marie's Beauty College" or "Berkley University" (not to be confused with the renowned University of California at Berkeley, but it will take your money anyway and give you a degree on nice paper, and it is well worth using as the liner for a birdcage).

John Mc82 has a point and I'm not sure I can answer it. It's good for people to be covered, but we have so many forces encouraging us to abuse our bodies, that sickness is not just a circumstance to be insured against, but something we do to ourselves and that corporate America facilitates. I think the new law covers prevention and alternative treatments, but being covered may not be an incentive to take care of ourselves.
Most of us are built to be peasants -- people who work hard and who must use their wits to stave off hunger. Such people do not get fat. But it is easy to develop the physique of a walrus in America, and not only on some islands off the coast of Alaska. (Those getting that physique on those islands in the Bering Sea are walruses, and they are excused! Diving for clams and chasing fish is splendid exercise!)

The most heavily-advertised foodstuffs have the emptiest calories -- beer, of course, soft drinks, candy, chips, pastries... even among restaurants it is the fast-food places that most advertise -- burgers, shakes, and fries. Sure, I could lose weight on a fast-food diet, but it would be all salads and baked potatoes. Many of us eat enough food for a ranch hand, commercial fisherman, lumberjacks, longshoreman, or professional athlete... and if we want to eat like that maybe we should give up our white-collar jobs and become ranch hands, commercial fishermen, lumberjacks, or longshoremen.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#4672 at 10-10-2013 05:19 PM by Danilynn [at joined Dec 2012 #posts 855]
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Just an observation. I'm probably going to be called ignorant. but oh, well.

Remember in the 70's and early 80's how few obese people were around? Most everyone was slimmer, kids ate just as much junk food when given a chance then too. Drank cokes on occasion, had candy bars. Had cupcakes at school functions, and drank sweetened sugar loaded kool-aide. Remember the Kool-aide mascot? So what changed?

Real sugar was used, not the corn fructose stuff. Kids were allowed to be kids, play outside, hell in some cases told to go outside. ride bikes and skateboards without over-bearing adults legislating all the fun right out of play.

Being fat in the 80's was not socially acceptable, however, smoking was. Result, you really didn't see a whole lot of really obese or morbidly obese people. There might have been 1 or 2 kids per school, not class, the whole school that were fat.
Now you see the inverse of that, smoking has been ostracized and demonized, as it should have been all along. If you choose to, have a ball. If not good on you. But now obese gets lip service, and has been made socially acceptable.

Real sugar is mostly gone from foods and drinks unless you make them at home. Which has also changed, no one seems to make/cook foods from scratch anymore.

This is not going to win me any friends, but here goes, in for a pence in for a pound.

I wear a size 4. ( 15 years ago at the same size as now, I wore a 6 sometimes an 8. Clothing has gotten bigger but sizes have been changed to say smaller. Don't believe it? find some old dress patterns from the 70's and check the measurements given for size against what's given today) It used to be easier 15 years ago to find that size clothing. Now, it's easier to find size 12/14/16/18 women's clothes. I know this first hand from shopping with a larger friend of over a decade. Used to be easier when we went shopping for me to find clothes, now more often than not she has better luck finding clothes. It's almost a complete reversal of where it was for us back then. More often than not if I find clothes in my size they are marketed for teenagers.

My husband is on the small side too. We ended up having to specially order his last suit. Because no store around here carried a size 30 waist ( he actually needs a 28, but that's not ever happened) with a 34 length.

Plates have gotten larger. My mom still has the dishes she bought new in 1979. the dinner plates from that set are about the size of the salad/sandwich plate in the set I bought 4 years ago. So what seems a serving size has gotten skewed. Sidewalks have disappeared from most areas built in residential areas after the 70's. Drive around sometime if you aren't in a large metropolis like NYC and observe this.

It has become ok to pick on one bad habit like smoking, and point out the detrimental stuff from it, but never ever say the same about obesity, because then you are shaming the person by the pc crowd. In the same time frame I have referenced I have noticed it seems to be perfectly ok though to say awful things to/about women who aren't overweight.
Last edited by Danilynn; 10-10-2013 at 05:26 PM.







Post#4673 at 10-10-2013 05:56 PM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
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10-10-2013, 05:56 PM #4673
Join Date
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
I should have said that transplant lists are supposed to take into account how well people take care of their bodies.
This is why I am ambivalent about the entire system of organ donation. If more people donated, would it really mean helping more people, or would the super-rich have even more spare parts to use up?
A major problem is that there are too few organ donations. All kinds of problems arise with scarcity. If there were more of us willing to donate, abundance would save many more lives, and not just the super-rich. Besides, there's a lot more of us average income people these days.

And to think that all it takes is checking the organ donation box on the back of our driver's license. It's a simple act and could possibly give a gift of life.
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#4674 at 10-10-2013 07:21 PM by Copperfield [at joined Feb 2010 #posts 2,244]
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10-10-2013, 07:21 PM #4674
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
Isn't it such a tragedy that Barry's website is so broken that it might take months before they figure out his healthcare plan isn't free?







Post#4675 at 10-10-2013 07:29 PM by Copperfield [at joined Feb 2010 #posts 2,244]
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10-10-2013, 07:29 PM #4675
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Quote Originally Posted by Danilynn View Post
Just an observation. I'm probably going to be called ignorant. but oh, well.

Remember in the 70's and early 80's how few obese people were around? Most everyone was slimmer, kids ate just as much junk food when given a chance then too. Drank cokes on occasion, had candy bars. Had cupcakes at school functions, and drank sweetened sugar loaded kool-aide. Remember the Kool-aide mascot? So what changed?

Real sugar was used, not the corn fructose stuff. Kids were allowed to be kids, play outside, hell in some cases told to go outside. ride bikes and skateboards without over-bearing adults legislating all the fun right out of play.

Being fat in the 80's was not socially acceptable, however, smoking was. Result, you really didn't see a whole lot of really obese or morbidly obese people. There might have been 1 or 2 kids per school, not class, the whole school that were fat.
Now you see the inverse of that, smoking has been ostracized and demonized, as it should have been all along. If you choose to, have a ball. If not good on you. But now obese gets lip service, and has been made socially acceptable.

Real sugar is mostly gone from foods and drinks unless you make them at home. Which has also changed, no one seems to make/cook foods from scratch anymore.

This is not going to win me any friends, but here goes, in for a pence in for a pound.

I wear a size 4. ( 15 years ago at the same size as now, I wore a 6 sometimes an 8. Clothing has gotten bigger but sizes have been changed to say smaller. Don't believe it? find some old dress patterns from the 70's and check the measurements given for size against what's given today) It used to be easier 15 years ago to find that size clothing. Now, it's easier to find size 12/14/16/18 women's clothes. I know this first hand from shopping with a larger friend of over a decade. Used to be easier when we went shopping for me to find clothes, now more often than not she has better luck finding clothes. It's almost a complete reversal of where it was for us back then. More often than not if I find clothes in my size they are marketed for teenagers.

My husband is on the small side too. We ended up having to specially order his last suit. Because no store around here carried a size 30 waist ( he actually needs a 28, but that's not ever happened) with a 34 length.

Plates have gotten larger. My mom still has the dishes she bought new in 1979. the dinner plates from that set are about the size of the salad/sandwich plate in the set I bought 4 years ago. So what seems a serving size has gotten skewed. Sidewalks have disappeared from most areas built in residential areas after the 70's. Drive around sometime if you aren't in a large metropolis like NYC and observe this.

It has become ok to pick on one bad habit like smoking, and point out the detrimental stuff from it, but never ever say the same about obesity, because then you are shaming the person by the pc crowd. In the same time frame I have referenced I have noticed it seems to be perfectly ok though to say awful things to/about women who aren't overweight.
I suspect sugar in general is bad (well in high quantities anyway). I eat tons of delicious red meat (sorry Rani) but rarely touch sugar and I have the cholesterol of a 15 year old (aided by good genes and a lot of exercise admittedly).
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