Originally Posted by Danilynn

This post for the win of the day!

Ps. I wish you could have seen my lazy herd of cats yesterday when I got home from work. I had left the electric blanket on my bed on. All the cats were lined up doing puzzle piece impersonations on the bed. It was a fuzzy furry purr festival. And it was even better stretching out with them and enjoying the company.

I hope you are well.

Something like this? (From Jennifer Stevenson's blog on Book View Cafe)

http://bookviewcafe.com/blog/wp-cont...dle-cuddle.jpg

Originally Posted by JohnMc82

And what the fuck is wrong with people like you, claiming to act on the best interests of the less fortunate, while celebrating the fact the most vulnerable of all will be screwed over to prove your political point? How do you claim a victory when the Dems pass a shitty version of a Republican bill? Where are the '90s Democrats who understood this was a huge step backwards that will only empower the insurers?

Just stop pretending that you care about anything other than how much money the government can deliver to your trust fund. You're not fooling anyone, you're just a really good example of that spoiled child you claim everyone else is.

The only thing that's wrong with me is I'm sick to death of you whining self-centered a-holes that keep bitchin about something that is bringing relief to millions of people.

Let's return to the roadmap -



- NOT counting the kids that get to stay on their parents insurance, there will be 13% of the population getting govt subsidize insurance, and a big chunk of that is single payer called Medicaid. That is millions of people.

We could bump that up another 2% if we can get Red states to go along with the Medicaid expansion - if VA goes Blue, Wendy Davis wins in TX, FL throws out some t-baggin state legislatures, and OH stays strong, we'd get most of that.

We could also get another 2% next year when those eligible for subsidies but turned it down this year, get a year of wisdom under their belts (or, Darwin Awards) and sign up next year.

All together, an AMAZING accomplishment not seen since Medicare past in the 1960s, and no previous President coming even close. That is what is eventually going to be the legacy of Obamacare.

We just need to get through the hysteria of people like you that focus on that 5% that will have to transition to REAL real insurance instead of that fly-by-night horseshit that they thought was insurance - their ignorance being what leads to higher premiums for the rest of us. And even a lot them are going to see their premiums at or below what they had before.. Oh, and of course in the Spring, it will be all about that 1.5% morons that decided to be subjected to the penalty rather than buy Obamacare. Too bad, so sad for them

I can sleep at night having supported getting the 13% with single payer or subsidized insurance, and now trying to help that additional 4% get coverage. At least a lot more so that joining the Deb and John whining team - just what the hell do you two think you have accomplished? Hint - it wouldn't be enough to buy you even a cup to pee in.

Originally Posted by playwrite

I've already covered this horseshit as well -

http://www.fourthturning.com/forum/s...705#post486705

No. You didn't cover why "If you like your plan, you can keep your plan. Period."
was a mis-representation(if not an outright lie). And that's just scratching the
surface. But, all that doesn't really matter, 'cuz I'm on your team now, PW.

I want to be the best "shit sandwich" salesman you've ever seen. I'm watching
the president on TV do his 'sales-pitch' for a bunch of kids right now; He's good.*

(I'm actually really excited about going to the healthcare.gov
website and having all my personal-info stolen! !!!)


Prince

PS:

Originally Posted by PW

I can understand Rani not being able to keep up with the clown car, but I though a young stud like you would not have a problem getting in the car.

You might be the poster boy for why the young 'invincibles' should consider getting some health insurance.

Hey, I'm not the one riding the 'crotch rocket'!
----------------
*so 'full-of-shit'.

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

Actually, there is a lot of value to takng a slower approach to medicine. For some reason, The Rani got her panties in a bunch when I mentioned that this was good, except for acute care (yes, I read the frickin' article). Much of what was discussed is now being recommended for prostate cancer, among other things. If I die at 90 with, but not of, prostate cancer, how was I served by having a procedure to correct it? On the other hand, there are times that a slow approach still leads to intervention, it will just be a more measured and focused effort.

I chose prostate cancer because I have it, or maybe I had it is a better construct. I decided to intervene in a minimal way, because the time was taken to evaluate the progress of the disease, and it would have killed me long pefore I reached 90. On the other hand, I was proactive enough to use a minimal treatment option - no surgery. At 5 years, I test clean.

Very happy with that outcome; fingers crossed it will remain so well into your 90s!

Originally Posted by JohnMc82

GOP loved Obamacare until Obama proposed it

http://www.kansascity.com/2013/10/29/4585052/gop-loved-obamacare-until-obama.html

Alternative titles:

• Democrats hated Obamacare until Obama proposed it
• Partisan propaganda model working as intended
• DOW/S&P reach record highs, misery index remains high for workers

You will NEVER find a parent with a sick kid and no insurance mouthing this kind of horseshit.

I'm glad you have the luxury.

Originally Posted by The Grey Badger

Something like this? (From Jennifer Stevenson's blog on Book View Cafe)

http://bookviewcafe.com/blog/wp-cont...dle-cuddle.jpg

exactly like that, just with 7 of the critters.

Originally Posted by princeofcats67

Sounds like my place. I've got two cats(they're sisters) on my bed as we speak.
A "lazy herd" and a "purr festival" are great visuals. Thanks.



I'm doing OK. I've got a little time off in the near future.
I hope everything is going well with you, as well.


Prince

PS: BTW, that post and thread about your knowledge of water is pretty cool.

If you want any questions answered I will. If I don't know I will research it for you. and Thank you

Originally Posted by Justin '77

Fair enough. For the sake of any hypothetical new-to-the-board readers.

Start here* and follow to here (there's a fair bit of other conversations going on, but a reader could easily just look for posts by you and me in that interval).

-----
*Your lies go back much, much further, but it's more than sufficient to simply start with one recent outright falsehood and follow that thread through. As an example.

I've been over it, and still can't figure out exactly why your panties are in knot. So, let's try this again, boiled down to bare essentials -

You believe the govt should not have a monopoly on sanctioned violence or at least should not use it to enforce property rights.

And, you believe the Randians think otherwise, thus setting you apart from them.

The conversation might have gotten to the point where I would point out to you that there is no practical difference between your anarchism and Rand's minimalist statism, and that's why you make for great political bedfellows or at least an enabler of all the Rand Pauls, Paul Ryans and Ted Cruz'ers of our contemporary times - you're just one of the less self-aware sheeple.

The problem, however, is you get your button pushed and become hysterical - "you lie, you lie!" It's part of a learned response to having your worldview regarding the govt's monopoly being shown to be fundamentally flawed.

But, correct me if I'm wrong. Or, just return to your hysteria. I don't really care one way or the other.

Originally Posted by Deb C

As long as we think that real political change will happen through voting, we are fooling ourselves. The system is seriously rigged against us. When the lobbyists have more access than the citizen to our representatives, that's a major road block to any change. The problem, as I see it, is that we are sold a bill of goods that's worthless and way too many people are buying the lies.

Most citizens actually wanted the public option but our voices were silenced by the gangster insurance industry that had the money to buy the ACA that works strongly in their favor. If we think that the ACA is the best we can do, then that just might be the biggest part of the problem. Every time we buy into the lies of the dysfunctional political system, we strengthen the corporate grip.

The ACA is bringing single payer (Medicaid) to 3-5% of the population and subsidized insurance to another 10-12%, and all your whining has done exactly what?

Originally Posted by princeofcats67

No. You didn't cover why "If you like your plan, you can keep your plan. Period."
was a mis-representation(if not an outright lie). And that's just scratching the
surface. But, all that doesn't really matter, 'cuz I'm on your team now, PW.

I want to be the best "shit sandwich" salesman you've ever seen. I'm watching
the president on TV do his 'sales-pitch' for a bunch of kids right now; He's good.*

(I'm actually really excited about going to the healthcare.gov
website and having all my personal-info stolen! !!!)


Prince

PS:


Hey, I'm not the one riding the 'crotch rocket'!
----------------
*so 'full-of-shit'.

Go back and this time actually read the post and the links - all from 2010. This "news" is 3 years ago and only news to those that are full of shit.

Originally Posted by Deb C

Some progressives are actually promoting GOP ideas. How can they defend them in the ACA and not with the rest of the social safety nets?

"Think about it, progressives. The real “suicide caucus” may consist of those on the center-left who, by passionately defending the Affordable Care Act rather than holding their noses, are unwittingly reinforcing the legitimacy of the right’s long-term strategy of repealing the greatest achievements of American liberalism."

Here’s how GOP Obamacare hypocrisy backfires

GOP base doesn't understand right wants to turn Medicare, Social Security and more into a very similar program





http://www.pnhp.org/news/2013/octobe...risy-backfires

For those that I'm refraining from calling dumbasses, I've already covered this here -

http://www.fourthturning.com/forum/s...767#post486767

Let me see if I can take it down another notch or two -

Just because you shouldn't drown yourself in a bathtub, doesn't necessarily mean you shouldn't use water to stop your house from burning down.

Got it?

Just because more people will have insurance, doesn't mean that they can afford the health care that they need. Many will still find themselves not being able to afford the co-pays and out of pocket expenses.

"The health care crisis had grown to such proportions that by the 2008 election it could not be ignored. It was a major topic of the presidential campaigns. The health industries knew this and invested heavily in the candidates. Candidate Barack Obama overwhelmingly received more in donations from health care-related industries than any of the other candidates."

Obamacare: The Biggest Insurance Scam in History

"The public was ready for health care reform. Knowing that the majority of the public supports a Medicare-for-all system, it was going to take serious planning to silence that majority and enact a law that protected the interests of the health industries."

It not only silenced many progressives, it made them the pom pom waving cheerleaders of this scam.
Obamacare: The Insurance Scam

The purpose of the final phase of the con is to make sure the victims do not realize they've been conned.

Obama signed the ACA on March 23, 2010. Immediately the marketing began. The three words we heard the most to describe it were universal, affordable andguaranteed. Of course, the ACA is none of those. But members told us personally that if they told the truth, they wouldn't be re-elected.


Progressive groups started the work of explaining the advantages of the new health law to the public. The few positive aspects of the law were promoted without explaining the big picture. Overall, the ACA is similar to other neoliberal economic policies; it defunds and destroys our public health insurances and further privatizes health care.



The end goal of the ACA con, to make sure people do not realize they have been conned, is ongoing. As we will see below, salespeople, often the same nonprofits who pushed the ACA, are getting big money to sell insurance with Madison Avenue marketing manipulation tactics.

Meanwhile those who continue to push for a health care that will include all citizens, are discounted and marginalized.

The increase in premiums will force more people to use the state health insurance exchanges, where prices are supposed to be more affordable, but even that is not a solution. Russell Mokhiber of Single Payer Action describes the dilemma he faces in West Virginia. Mokhiber received a notice that his current insurance expires January 1, 2014. If he wants to keep his plan, it will cost twice as much. In his state only one insurance company, Highmark, will be listed on the exchange. He called Highmark to find out what his choices were and got bad news: "The skimpiest plan is going to cost me more than I'm paying now and have a higher deductible and out-of-pocket costs."

Decreased coverage: The ACA will increase the number of people who have inadequate insurance that requires high out-of-pocket costs and does not cover all necessary services. The ACA significantly lowers what is considered to be adequate insurance coverage through its system of tiers. The insurance exchanges offer four levels of coverage, with the least-expensive plans paying for 70 percent and 60 percent of covered services.

Tricks to mistreat those with pre-existing illness: One of the great selling points of the ACA con is that those with pre-existing illnesses will not be denied coverage. This is true, but insurers have many ways to avoid the ill. The ACA waswritten by an insurance company executive from Wellpoint, Liz Fowler, who went on to be hired by Obama's HHS to implement the law and now works for a pharmaceutical giant. So, all along the way, the insurance companies had someone protecting their interests.

One way to avoid the sick was mentioned above: excluding hospitals where people with serious health problems go, like major medical centers. Another way is by providing poor service to people who have a lot of claims so they change insurers. And a third has to do with the fact that insurance companies are allowed to charge more in geographical areas where health costs are higher. If a plan in a particular area is not making enough profit, the insurance company can simply stop selling in that area.


No cap on out-of-pocket spending: One of the selling points of the ACA con was that it would limit how much people pay out of pocket for health care. Of the thousands of waivers granted by HHS, one was the limit on out-of-pocket spending. The insurance companies claimed that their computers were not set up to handle this change. HHS took this absurd rationale seriously and gave them a waiver on this important provision.

The Con Continues: The Dealers

The most egregious aspect of the ACA is the individual mandate that those without health insurance who do not qualify for public insurance such as Medicaid must purchase private insurance or pay a penalty for being uninsured. The public is being led to believe that the solution to the health care crisis is to increase the number of people who have insurance. This ignores the fact that having insurance does not mean that patients will have access to or will be able to afford the health care they need.

More of the reality of this scam

http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/19...cam-in-history

Originally Posted by Danilynn

exactly like that, just with 7 of the critters.

When I lay down for my afternoon rest, both my fellows slept peacefully together on top of me until I became somewhat conscious again. Mommy, the Big Living Electric Blanket <G>!

Originally Posted by The Wonkette

As somebody who overall feels the same way about Obamacare as Marx and Lennon (far from ideal but better than the patchwork we had in 2010), I still understand that a minority of people are worse off under Obama Care than under the prior patchwork. I'm sorry you're one of them.

I still think it's better to work out the bugs in Obamacare then to go back to what we had before. Maybe we can yet add in the public option once we have an established system to add it to.

However, it's easy for me to say this, since I'm covered under the Federal Employees' Health Benefit system.

I'm sorry that PW is giving you a hard time about being mad, though.

I completely agree.

I think PW's making this mistake: http://lesswrong.com/lw/gz/policy_de...pear_onesided/

Originally Posted by Eliezer Yudkowsky

Arguments are soldiers. Once you know which side you're on, you must support all arguments of that side, and attack all arguments that appear to favor the enemy side; otherwise it's like stabbing your soldiers in the back. If you abide within that pattern, policy debates will also appear one-sided to you—the costs and drawbacks of your favored policy are enemy soldiers, to be attacked by any means necessary.

It's an easy mistake to fall into.

(Warning: Yudkowsky is a libertarian and uses an anti-regulation example. )

Originally Posted by Deb C

Just because more people will have insurance, doesn't mean that they can afford the health care that they need. Many will still find themselves not being able to afford the co-pays and out of pocket expenses.

"The health care crisis had grown to such proportions that by the 2008 election it could not be ignored. It was a major topic of the presidential campaigns. The health industries knew this and invested heavily in the candidates. Candidate Barack Obama overwhelmingly received more in donations from health care-related industries than any of the other candidates."

Obamacare: The Biggest Insurance Scam in History



It not only silenced many progressives, it made them the pom pom waving cheerleaders of this scam.
Obamacare: The Insurance Scam


Meanwhile those who continue to push for a health care that will include all citizens, are discounted and marginalized.

Decreased coverage: The ACA will increase the number of people who have inadequate insurance that requires high out-of-pocket costs and does not cover all necessary services. The ACA significantly lowers what is considered to be adequate insurance coverage through its system of tiers. The insurance exchanges offer four levels of coverage, with the least-expensive plans paying for 70 percent and 60 percent of covered services.

Tricks to mistreat those with pre-existing illness: One of the great selling points of the ACA con is that those with pre-existing illnesses will not be denied coverage. This is true, but insurers have many ways to avoid the ill. The ACA waswritten by an insurance company executive from Wellpoint, Liz Fowler, who went on to be hired by Obama's HHS to implement the law and now works for a pharmaceutical giant. So, all along the way, the insurance companies had someone protecting their interests.

One way to avoid the sick was mentioned above: excluding hospitals where people with serious health problems go, like major medical centers. Another way is by providing poor service to people who have a lot of claims so they change insurers. And a third has to do with the fact that insurance companies are allowed to charge more in geographical areas where health costs are higher. If a plan in a particular area is not making enough profit, the insurance company can simply stop selling in that area.


No cap on out-of-pocket spending: One of the selling points of the ACA con was that it would limit how much people pay out of pocket for health care. Of the thousands of waivers granted by HHS, one was the limit on out-of-pocket spending. The insurance companies claimed that their computers were not set up to handle this change. HHS took this absurd rationale seriously and gave them a waiver on this important provision.

The Con Continues: The Dealers

The most egregious aspect of the ACA is the individual mandate that those without health insurance who do not qualify for public insurance such as Medicaid must purchase private insurance or pay a penalty for being uninsured. The public is being led to believe that the solution to the health care crisis is to increase the number of people who have insurance. This ignores the fact that having insurance does not mean that patients will have access to or will be able to afford the health care they need.

More of the reality of this scam

http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/19...cam-in-history

And you and the rest of the brainless Far Left will continue to be discounted and marginalized by those with at least half a brain as long as you continue to spew this type of horseshit.

The entire piece is in comparison to having Medicare or some other premium single payer program in place for everyone. When is it going to get through that F'in thick skull of yours that is never going to happen as long as the GOP is around and you idiots keep enabling them with your constant bullshit.

Don't keep trying to make us believe we live in magic pony land; make the comparisons to the reality of what people actually being impacted by the ACA had before the law, not some fantasy Far Left wet dream that's not going to happen. For the vast majority of the people actually being impacted by the ACA, it is a vast improvement, period. End of story. Everything else you spew is pure bullshit.

I am so sick and tired of the F'n hysterical Obama-hatin lies you spew on this forum. The only way you could possible live with yourself is that you are either too stupid to grasp the vast harm you and your ilk are doing to the Progressive agenda by enabling the Far Right's bullshit or you are a very happy shill for the Far Right.

Originally Posted by Ted '79

I completely agree.

I think PW's making this mistake: http://lesswrong.com/lw/gz/policy_de...pear_onesided/



It's an easy mistake to fall into.

(Warning: Yudkowsky is a libertarian and uses an anti-regulation example. )

That assumes some equivalency between facts and logic and insane lying a-holes.

Sorry, I don't do that magic pony land.

Originally Posted by Deb C

Just because more people will have insurance, doesn't mean that they can afford the health care that they need. Many will still find themselves not being able to afford the co-pays and out of pocket expenses.

"The health care crisis had grown to such proportions that by the 2008 election it could not be ignored. It was a major topic of the presidential campaigns...
...
...
...
More of the reality of this scam

http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/19...cam-in-history

In this is there an action plan, or is this all venting? Being mad without being able to change anything is frustrating, probably unhealthy, and likely to lead to bad answers if and when changes are possible.

My $0.02

Originally Posted by The Rani

I can't figure it out, either.
What is Justin doing wearing MY panties?!

It’s hard to tell, but it looks like a pirouette. It was bit sloppy, but pretty good for wearing tight panties.

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

In this is there an action plan, or is this all venting? Being mad without being able to change anything is frustrating, probably unhealthy, and likely to lead to bad answers if and when changes are possible.

My $0.02

The authors of this article are tireless in their work for a single payer healthcare system. Education is part of their work. To show the underbelly of the ACA is a major piece of moving forward. As long as people stay in an illusion that the ACA is the best we can get right now, then this solidifies the current misinformation and prevents any hope of single payer system. People need the truth before they can awaken to the wool pulled over their eyes. The truth sets us free to move forward.

These are not angry people, they are passionate about justice for all.

Originally Posted by Deb C

The authors of this article are tireless in their work for a single payer healthcare system. Education is part of their work. To show the underbelly of the ACA is a major piece of moving forward. As long as people stay in an illusion that the ACA is the best we can get right now, then this solidifies the current misinformation and prevents any hope of single payer system. People need the truth before they can awaken to the wool pulled over their eyes. The truth sets us free to move forward.

These are not angry people, they are passionate about justice for all.

They are also approaching broken-record status, which produces more negative than positive responses. When I was in the anti-war movement, we had the same issues. Note the rise of the Moral Majority to fend off the heathen usurpers saying bad things about <insert the topic or person's name of choice>. Also notice that this is still impacting us today.

Don't arm your adversaries!

PS: Marx and Lennon, I find it extremely interesting that you view activists who are working passionately for single payer by shining a light on the down side of the ACA, as angry, yet you are silent about the rage, name calling and crude behavior that Playwrite displays on an ongoing basis.

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

They are also approaching broken-record status, which produces more negative than positive responses. When I was in the anti-war movement, we had the same issues. Note the rise of the Moral Majority to fend off the heathen usurpers saying bad things about <insert the topic or person's name of choice>. Also notice that this is still impacting us today.

Don't arm your adversaries!

Yet you have the selfrightous Maddows and other so called liberals passionately promoting the ACA on a daily basis. Somehow, it appears you might have a prejudice for activists who are passionate about shedding a light on the downside of ACA. This, to me, is a double standard.

You'll never hear the authors of the article I posted calling names and being down right nasty to those who disagree with them.

Originally Posted by The Wonkette

I'm sorry that PW is giving you a hard time about being mad, though.

He's really only good at compounding the anger. I don't agree that the ACA is a step forward, because I think we have to calculate opportunity costs.

And when it comes to opportunity costs and political capital, the Democrats seem to be doing everything they can to waste the opportunity handed to them.

Everyone says "Maybe next crash, maybe next catalyst.." but how many chances do we really expect? Meanwhile, the Republicans have been so successful in getting everything they want, that all they have left to do is move the goal posts and demand even more. It's a failing strategy for the left, over and over and over again...

Originally Posted by Deb C

Yet you have the selfrightous Maddows and other so called liberals passionately promoting the ACA on a daily basis. Somehow, it appears you might have a prejudice for activists who are passionate about shedding a light on the downside of ACA. This, to me, is a double standard.

You'll never hear the authors of the article I posted calling names and being down right nasty to those who disagree with them.

Indeed! Is PW beating a dead horse and "arming the enemy" when he continues to spread debunked propaganda about a relatively unpopular piece of corrupt legislation, posting the same picture to the same thread twenty times?

M&L, can you teach us more about surrendering and letting the opposition win? That will be useful in the neo-gilded age your apathy contributes to.

Originally Posted by Deb C

The authors of this article are tireless in their work for a single payer healthcare system. Education is part of their work. To show the underbelly of the ACA is a major piece of moving forward. As long as people stay in an illusion that the ACA is the best we can get right now, then this solidifies the current misinformation and prevents any hope of single payer system. People need the truth before they can awaken to the wool pulled over their eyes. The truth sets us free to move forward.

These are not angry people, they are passionate about justice for all.

It's really incredible how this all just flies over your head.

What frickin planet do you live on where the opposing side is willing to bring down the global economy to stop Obamacare because its 'socialism' and yet you believe single payer has a snowball's chance in hell? What is wrong with you?

What is your most pessimistic guess for how long it will take before the political environment would even consider such a possibility? Four years? Eight years? A decade? 30 years? Whatever you think it might be, I'm pretty sure anybody with a grip on reality would find it wildly optimistic.. And just exactly what are millions of people without any insurance suppose to do as you pursue your impossible wet dream? Do you really even give a shit about them? It's pretty hard to believe you do.

Justice for all? My ass. This is about your hatred of Obama because he turned out to not be your Messiah. Grow up.