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Thread: It's time for national healthcare - Page 200







Post#4976 at 11-04-2013 12:43 PM by Danilynn [at joined Dec 2012 #posts 855]
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Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
Here's the thing that you're not grasping - if it was just the pharmaceutical industry and the insurers opposing single payer, then single payer would have happened a long long time ago.

50-55% of people get employer-based insurance; they know it, they're use to it, and they are NOT going to easily be convinced to give it up to move onto a government program. MOST of them, BY FAR, are going to fight tooth and nail against being moved to some government replacement program. It will make the fight over Obamacare look like a church picnic.

In addition, over 30% of the people are already on single payer in the form of Medicare and Medicaid, they like it. They like it enough to be easily manipulated into being scared shitless by the possibility of everyone joining them on those programs and somehow diminishing the program for them. Again, MOST of them, BY FAR, are going to be scared of an expansion that takes on everyone and they too will fight tooth and nail against it.

As long as you ignore this reality, and keep blaming the lack of support for single payer on the insurance and drug companies, you will continue to be as ineffective as anyone living in magic pony land.

The ONLY way to move to single payer is by evolving it - its going to take years if not decades to get to single payer for everyone. That does not mean that significant progress toward that goal cannot be achieved; it takes understanding what the milestones for getting there will be and supporting them rather than obstructing them with deadly ignorance.

TRY to think backwards from the goal of single payer for everyone that would evolve over a decade and see if you can't come to understand what those key milestones would be - it could open a whole new world for you.
You are very right on this. I do NOT want to be on government run care. Experienced it first hand with VA care. No. just no. Months long waits to see a doctor for most anything not going through the emergency room, and then you wait upwards of 8-10 hours to be seen, even if bleeding. I watched them staunch bleeding on a bad cut on a vet at the VA in Atlanta 4 times in the waiting room of the ER. That is worth fighting against as coverage for all.

I have employer based insurance and it is 1000x better than anything the government offers I will fight tooth and nail against losing it, just to go back to substandard government care. Medicare doctors aren't much better than the VA ones either. So few want to take that insurance.

No just no.
That is magic pony land right there. I agree on that part. Just say no to government crap care.







Post#4977 at 11-04-2013 01:13 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
And I think we all know that having lawyers and accountants run a health care system ensures the best possible outcomes for everyone.
Anyone who thinks otherwise is a nihilistic sociopath.
You might be able to avoid the lawyers, but the bean counters are here to stay.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#4978 at 11-04-2013 01:19 PM by JohnMc82 [at Back in Jax joined Jan 2011 #posts 1,962]
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And something optimistic for a change: http://now.msn.com/paul-mccarthy-mas...nd-for-his-son

A $2,000 3D printer builds $10 prosthetic from free open-source model
Those words, "temperate and moderate", are words either of political cowardice, or of cunning, or seduction. A thing, moderately good, is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper, is always a virtue; but moderation in principle, is a species of vice.

'82 - Once & always independent







Post#4979 at 11-04-2013 01:22 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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The Mayo and Cleveland Clinics, and a few more generalized providers (apparently. some but not all of the Kaiser Permanente groups) will be great models for HC delivery ... eventually.

I know more about the Mayo and Cleveland Clinics (long story) than I do about Kaiser Permanente, so that's totally anecdotal.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#4980 at 11-04-2013 02:06 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
Yeah the VA isn't so great, but if all you need is emergency stuff you can probably get by on it.
It's not without its restrictions too. If you have a service related diability, you get more consideration. If not, you have to be financially struggling to get free care, though copays are low. It's also harder to get authorized care outside the system, and copays are a lot higher (typically).
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#4981 at 11-04-2013 02:24 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by JohnMc82 View Post
Hold on, this is basically the Overton Window argument - it's possible to pass anything that is popular with the electorate. You're saying we just need more time for public opinion to change. I get that. It makes sense, it's even considered "common sense."

But tell me why a public option couldn't get passed, because that had like... 2/3rds support among the population, and it would probably be the difference between the ACA being majority supported or not (at least among voters.)

The idea of the Overton Window is dead because polticians have little to any incentive to represent the wishes of the voters.

"As long as you ignore this reality ... you will continue to be as ineffective as anyone living in magic pony land."
Verrmont is already close by offering a "public option". It's still not single payer, so it still lacks maximal cost savings ... and no system has HC cost containment on the list - at least not yet.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#4982 at 11-04-2013 02:35 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by Danilynn View Post
You are very right on this. I do NOT want to be on government run care. Experienced it first hand with VA care. No. just no. Months long waits to see a doctor for most anything not going through the emergency room, and then you wait upwards of 8-10 hours to be seen, even if bleeding. I watched them staunch bleeding on a bad cut on a vet at the VA in Atlanta 4 times in the waiting room of the ER. That is worth fighting against as coverage for all.
Government provided care is not intrinsicaly better or worse than private care. Both need to be properly funded with an effective quality oversight system in place. VA has been bad for that very reason - piss poor funding.

That said, I can easily get care at an out-patient facility two miles from my office ... if I wish to use it. Non-emergency appointments are typically two weeks, which is similar to the private sector. I have good coverage through my employer, so I continue to use that for now.

Quote Originally Posted by Danilynn ...
I have employer based insurance and it is 1000x better than anything the government offers I will fight tooth and nail against losing it, just to go back to substandard government care. Medicare doctors aren't much better than the VA ones either. So few want to take that insurance.

No just no.
That is magic pony land right there. I agree on that part. Just say no to government crap care.
If you had written Medicaid instead of Medicare, I would agree. Medicare is well accepted by clinicians, hospitals and other service providers - especailly if the senior also has a Supplemental policy or Medicare Advantage.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#4983 at 11-04-2013 02:38 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by JohnMc82 View Post
And something optimistic for a change: http://now.msn.com/paul-mccarthy-mas...nd-for-his-son

A $2,000 3D printer builds $10 prosthetic from free open-source model
... except you aren't a standard size or shape, nor is the fit in any way standard. Most prosthetics are mapped from an MRI scan ... at least the ones I know about personally.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#4984 at 11-04-2013 02:42 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
Yeah thanks for reminding me. I was going to point out that Apple and Samsung manage to come out with new phones every year that cost less than a $1000 and are far more complex than most pieces of medical equipment.
Although, Apple has been accused of making that possible through the use of sweatshops. But there must be a middle ground.
Economy of scale makes many highly sophisitcated things relatively cheap. Selling 10 Milllion of something is a lot different than selling 10,000 of them. when the development cost is the same in both cases.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#4985 at 11-04-2013 02:58 PM by The Wonkette [at Arlington, VA 1956 joined Jul 2002 #posts 9,209]
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Just for the purpose of the discussion, I'd like to link with James Howard Kunstler's blog. He is a peak oil doomser -- he has been predicting the End of Civilization since around 2005 -- so take that into account when you read his hilarious screed.

The ObamaCare website rollout fiasco, joined by the bait-and-switch “You can keep your current insurance (not)” tempest, obscure the fundamental quandary about so-called health-care in America: that it is a gigantic racket structured to allow countless layers of grift and counter-grift. The end product of all that artifice is that medical care costs twice as much in America as any other civilized country, and that it has to be operated by a cruel and despotic matrix of poorly coordinated bureaucracies that commonly leave people more disabled financially than the diseases that brought them into the system.

ObamaCare was designed to work like a giant roll of duct tape that would allow the current cast of characters in charge (Democratic Progressives) to pretend that the system could keep going a few years longer. But it looks like it has already blown out the patch on the manifold and is getting ready to throw a rod — which duct tape will not avail to fix.

I had three major surgeries (hip, open heart, spine) the past year and paid attention to the statements that rolled in from my then-insurer, Blue Shield (the policy was cancelled in October). These documents were always advertised as “this is not a bill” and that was technically true, but it deflected attention from what it really was, a record of negotiated scams between the “providers” (doctors and hospitals) and the insurance company.

There was never any discussion (or offer of discussion) of the cost of care before a procedure. When asked, doctors commonly pretend not to know what their work costs. Why is that? It’s not to spare the patient’s feelings. It’s because sick people are hostages and both the doctors and the hospital management know they will agree to anything that will get them through the crisis of illness. This sets up a situation that allows the “providers” to blindside the patient with charges after the fact.

My hip “revision” operation was necessary because my original implant was a defective (“innovative” circa 2003) metal-on-metal joint that released metal fragments into my system and it had to be removed. The stated charge for replacement part — a simple two piece bearing made of metal and plastic, about the size of tangerine — was $14,000. Blue Shield “negotiated” the price down to about $7,000. If you go to the websites of any of the manufacturers of these things, you will not see any suggested retail or wholesale price. The markup on these things must be out of this world. Cars come with four ball joints that carry roughly the same time warrantee, and they come with a staggering array of “extras”— engines, transmissions, air-conditioning, seats, air-bags, and radios. The pattern was similar for the other surgeries and what they entailed. I ended up paying five-figures out-of-pocket. Lucky for me that I saved some money before this all happened. I don’t have kids so I haven’t been paying extortionate college tuitions during my peak income years.

All the surgeries I had required hospital stays. For the hip op, I was in for a day and a half in a non-special bed (no fancy hookups). The charge was $23,000 per day. For what? They took my blood pressure nine times. I got about six bad meals. The line charge on the Blue Shield statement said “room and board.” It would be a joke if this extortion wasn’t multiplied millions of times a day across the nation. Citizen-hostages obviously don’t know where to begin to unravel this skein of dreadful rackets. If you think it’s possible to have a productive conversation with an insurance company rep at the other end of the phone line, then you’re going to be disappointed. You might as well be talking to a third-sub-deputy under-commissar in the Soviet motor vehicle bureau.

This ghastly matrix of corruption really only has two ways to go. It can completely implode in a fairly short time frame (say, five years, tops), or we can, by some miracle of political will, get our priorities straight and sweep away all the layers of racketeering with a single-payer system. The evidence in other civilized countries is not so encouraging. England’s National Health Service has degenerated into a two layer system of half-assed soviet-style medicine for the proles and concierge service for the rich. France’s system works more democratically, but the nation is going bankrupt and eventually their health care network will fall apart. The Scandinavian countries have relatively tiny populations. I don’t know, frankly, how the Germans are doing.

Here in the USA, you can make arguments for putting a greater share of public money into a single-payer system. For instance, if we redirected the money spent on our stupid military adventures and closed some of the countless redundant bases we run overseas. That would be a biggie. Given the current choke-hold of the military-industrial complex on our politicians, I wouldn’t expect much traction there.

You can argue that nobody complains about government spending on the highway system, so why should “the people” complain about organizing a medical system that really works? Obviously, there’s no consensus to make that happen. Too many doctors want to drive BMWs. Too many insurance executives and hospital administrators want to make multi-million dollar salaries. Too many lobbyist parasites and lawyers are feeding off that revenue stream. Too many politicians with gold-plated health insurance coverage don’t want to change the current distribution of goodies. End-of-story, as the late Tony Soprano used to say.

It’s the old quandary of fire or ice… which way do you want to go? Since I’m interested in reality-based outcomes, my bet would be on implosion. In any case, several of the other systems that currently support the activities of our society are scheduled for near-term implosion, too. That would be the banking-finance system, the energy supply system, and the industrial agriculture system. As those things wind down or crash, you can be sure that everything connected with them will be affected, so the chance that we could mount a real national health care system is, in my opinion, zero.

The ObamaCare duct-taped system will go down. The big hospitals, HMOs, insurers, pharma companies will all starve and shrivel. Like all things in the emergent new paradigm, they will reorganize on a small and much simpler basis. Everyone will make less money and high-tech medicine will probably dwindle for all but a very few… and for them, only for a while. Eventually, we’ll re-set to local clinic style medicine with far fewer resources, specialties, and miracle cures. There will be a whole lot less aggravation, though, and people may die more peacefully.

Finally, there’s the pathetic American lumpen-public of our day itself, steadily committing suicide en masse by corn byproducts, the three-hundred pounders lumbering down the Wal-Mart aisles in search of the latest designer nacho. What can you do about such a people, except let fate take them where it will?
I want people to know that peace is possible even in this stupid day and age. Prem Rawat, June 8, 2008







Post#4986 at 11-04-2013 03:35 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by JohnMc82 View Post
Hold on, this is basically the Overton Window argument - it's possible to pass anything that is popular with the electorate. You're saying we just need more time for public opinion to change. I get that. It makes sense, it's even considered "common sense."

But tell me why a public option couldn't get passed, because that had like... 2/3rds support among the population, and it would probably be the difference between the ACA being majority supported or not (at least among voters.)

The idea of the Overton Window is dead because politicians have little to any incentive to represent the wishes of the voters.

"As long as you ignore this reality ... you will continue to be as ineffective as anyone living in magic pony land."
That is a political and historical over-simplification - another type of magic pony land.

The public option was lost in the Senate as a result of the perfect storm combination of Ted Kennedy's brain tumor, Scott Brown's election, and shithead Joe Lieberman that prevented over ruling the filibuster in the Senate. All that needs to happen is 60 Dem Senators and 218 Dem House members, and just as they almost did in 2010, there would be a public option.

It does come down to an election that is representative of the voters. Yes, there are a lot of impediments to that (e.g., gerrymandering, filibuster) but nothing that a sufficient number of voters would not overcome if they so choose. They are not going to so choose, however. In fact, any politician threatening to take away the status quo of employer-based insurance or threatening to 'destroy' Medicare by overwhelming it with the masses would likely get kill it their election bid (my point); even Bernie Sanders is very careful in never spelling out what going to single payer would mean for most people.

Again, if you don't take that as a starting point, you are living in magic pony land when it comes to suggestions about how to change our health care system. It makes those that talk about why we can't have a European system or why not some really keen way of dealing with health costs look pretty ignorant about reality.

The public option is a step toward single payer, but it will need to be proceeded with a lot of ground work and slow evolution. It could occur in a big, well-rounded health exchange where a state is in the position to not only tell the insurers to go F themselves, but also a large Congressional delegation to wangle flexibility from the feds to experiment with it. There is one such state, and it is on the path.
Last edited by playwrite; 11-04-2013 at 03:39 PM.
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If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#4987 at 11-04-2013 03:53 PM by Danilynn [at joined Dec 2012 #posts 855]
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I think more doctors should be upfront about their costs like cosmetic surgeons are. Go see one for a consult if you think doctors don't know how much something costs, they will prove you wrong on that idea. They can quote you the operating room, recovery room, sedation costs plus their fees and typically what the meds for after will run down to the penny.







Post#4988 at 11-04-2013 03:58 PM by JohnMc82 [at Back in Jax joined Jan 2011 #posts 1,962]
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Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
The public option was lost in the Senate as a result of the perfect storm combination of Ted Kennedy's brain tumor, Scott Brown's election, and shithead Joe Lieberman that prevented over ruling the filibuster in the Senate. All that needs to happen is 60 Dem Senators and 218 Dem House members, and just as they almost did in 2010, there would be a public option.
Well, we disagree. I think it died well before that when the party picked insurance representatives Baucus & Fowler to chair the finance committee and write the law.
Those words, "temperate and moderate", are words either of political cowardice, or of cunning, or seduction. A thing, moderately good, is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper, is always a virtue; but moderation in principle, is a species of vice.

'82 - Once & always independent







Post#4989 at 11-04-2013 04:02 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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Quote Originally Posted by Danilynn View Post
What they have in place now anyone not dirt poor below the poverty, can't afford to have it and use it, so really what has been accomplished? absolutely nothing. I know folks above the cutoff for subsidies they are going to be forced to pay the fine due to being cut from employer plans. They don't make enough to afford 1800 a month in insurance and have a home/apartment/trailer and eat and have that.

I'm just really grateful I served in the military, my husband has a state government job that covers his needs and the kids. Mine is till covered by my employer, but if it gets cut I got the best letter ever in the mail from the VA saying I meet the damn crap and don't have to bother with the ACA debacle, because being a vet gets me VA care. not great, but no fine.
Well, Obamacare does gives the appearance of a national health care system, like in European countries. But the idea that it can be improved later-if the original version gets the foot in the door-is very problematic.
Last edited by TimWalker; 11-04-2013 at 04:07 PM.







Post#4990 at 11-04-2013 04:07 PM by Danilynn [at joined Dec 2012 #posts 855]
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[QUOTE=The Rani;487434]Most people don't care what it costs as long as their insurance covers it.[/QUOTE

And there is the big problem.







Post#4991 at 11-04-2013 04:23 PM by Brian Beecher [at Downers Grove, IL joined Sep 2001 #posts 2,937]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
Most people don't care what it costs as long as their insurance covers it.
Up until fairly recently it was considered highly unethical for doctors and other professionals such as attorneys to be able to disclose and therefore compete on price. But how much medical procedures cost does impact how much we pay for insurance. I use to have a housemate who was of the opinion that if we ever got universal healthcare it would be the damnation of society as we have come to know that, because everyone would run to the doctor at the first sign of a sniffle. Don't quite believe that, however.







Post#4992 at 11-04-2013 04:29 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by JohnMc82 View Post
Well, we disagree. I think it died well before that when the party picked insurance representatives Baucus & Fowler to chair the finance committee and write the law.
I think Baucus and Liebermann and Snowe and Nelson et al (Silents all) killed the public option, but I don't know if the Democrats had an "option" to make Baucus the Committee Chair or not. He had probably held that position for some years.

(Tim)
Well, Obamacare does gives the appearance of a national health care system, like in European countries. But the idea that it can be improved later-if the original version gets the foot in the door-is very problematic.
It is problematic, I agree; unless activists continue to push for improvements, including the public option and Medicare for All. Eventually it needs to sink in that the way to "fix" Medicare is with MORE, not LESS Medicare. I don't think the Democrats will have 60 real-Democratic votes in the Senate after the 2014 election, but possibly later; certainly by the 2020s, when I think and predict that further reform WILL happen. Probably even the early 2020s! Also, there's the real possibility that the filibuster will be abolished or reformed if the Republicans continue to block everything.

The House could go Democratic next year, but I would not predict or bet on it yet. It WILL if Republicans pull yet-another shutdown or threatened-default stunt. As for gerrymandering, if people in each state allow it to continue, that is their fault. We in CA got rid of it; there's no reason other states can't get rid of it by next year, or by 2016. They ought to get on about it.

And yippie; as playwrite points out, CA is moving forward on health care reform!
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#4993 at 11-04-2013 04:29 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by Danilynn View Post
I think more doctors should be upfront about their costs like cosmetic surgeons are. Go see one for a consult if you think doctors don't know how much something costs, they will prove you wrong on that idea. They can quote you the operating room, recovery room, sedation costs plus their fees and typically what the meds for after will run down to the penny.
Cosmetic surgery is rarely covered by insurance, so the surgeon needs to have the patient (customer, really) buy-in. Procedures that are covered have the same faux prices that clothing has prior to the 65% Sale, with the actual price varying according to the amount each insurer is willing to pay.

After that, it's a numbers game. If reimbursements are too low, the providers won't deal (at least, not in network). If they are too high, the insurance costs too much.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#4994 at 11-04-2013 04:47 PM by Bad Dog [at joined Dec 2012 #posts 2,156]
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...b78_story.html

Based on interviews with more than two dozen current and former administration officials and outsiders who worked alongside them, the project was hampered by the White House’s political sensitivity to Republican hatred of the law — sensitivity so intense that the president’s aides ordered that some work be slowed down or remain secret for fear of feeding the opposition. Inside the Department of Health and Human Services’ Centers for Medicare and Medicaid, the main agency responsible for the exchanges, there was no single administrator whose full-time job was to manage the project. Republicans also made clear they would block funding, while some outside IT companies that were hired to build the Web site, HealthCare.gov, performed poorly.







Post#4995 at 11-04-2013 04:56 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by Bad Dog View Post
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...b78_story.html

Based on interviews with more than two dozen current and former administration officials and outsiders who worked alongside them, the project was hampered by the White House’s political sensitivity to Republican hatred of the law — sensitivity so intense that the president’s aides ordered that some work be slowed down or remain secret for fear of feeding the opposition. Inside the Department of Health and Human Services’ Centers for Medicare and Medicaid, the main agency responsible for the exchanges, there was no single administrator whose full-time job was to manage the project. Republicans also made clear they would block funding, while some outside IT companies that were hired to build the Web site, HealthCare.gov, performed poorly.
What a stupid blunder! The ACA is either good, and needs to move ahead, or it isn't, and needs to die. Why act sheepish about it.?

If they believed it's good, then they should have stood tall, taken the arrows, and moved as fast as reason permits. If Republicans want to foam at the mouth, let them. The blowback may have been even bigger in 2012, and all the handwringing might have been avoided.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#4996 at 11-04-2013 05:08 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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On the topic of doctor-patient discussions of treatment prices, here's one afirmative response:

Quote Originally Posted by Peter Ubel, M.D. in the NY Times/: Novemeber 3, 2013
Doctor, First Tell Me What It Costs
DURHAM, N.C. — IF an antibiotic would cure your infection, your doctor would probably still warn you about the chance of sun sensitivity before prescribing the pill.

But even when the costs of a medical intervention might force patients to choose between paying the bill or keeping up with their mortgages, American physicians rarely discuss that serious side effect with them. One physician recently explained to me that he felt money talk would “violate the doctor-patient relationship.”
Given how much attention we have been focusing on health care costs and the Affordable Care Act, now is the time to change such thinking.
In The New England Journal of Medicine last month, two colleagues and I wrote an essay intended for physicians; we argued that they should discuss out-of-pocket costs with patients just as they discuss any side effects. After all, the financial burden of paying for medical care can cause more distress in patients’ lives than many medical side effects, and patients can decide whether any of the downsides of treatment are justified by the benefits.
... more at the link.
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Post#4997 at 11-04-2013 05:38 PM by JohnMc82 [at Back in Jax joined Jan 2011 #posts 1,962]
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11-04-2013, 05:38 PM #4997
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Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
I think Baucus and Liebermann and Snowe and Nelson et al (Silents all) killed the public option, but I don't know if the Democrats had an "option" to make Baucus the Committee Chair or not. He had probably held that position for some years.
The majority party picks the committee chairs, and theoretically the full Senate has to vote on it, but there isn't anything the minority party can do about that. Baucus got the Finance Committee chair shortly after Reid became majority leader in early 2007.
Those words, "temperate and moderate", are words either of political cowardice, or of cunning, or seduction. A thing, moderately good, is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper, is always a virtue; but moderation in principle, is a species of vice.

'82 - Once & always independent







Post#4998 at 11-04-2013 07:28 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by JohnMc82 View Post
Well, we disagree. I think it died well before that when the party picked insurance representatives Baucus & Fowler to chair the finance committee and write the law.
Dude, here is Lieberman speaking on Face the Nation back on Nov. 1, 2009 -

The public option I think was raised in the last year by people who really want to have a government-controlled health insurance system. That’s their right. I think they’re wrong.

And here is Lieberman speaking to CNS News on Nov. 10:

People, I think, who really want a single-payer system and government control of health insurance are using the public option as a nose under the tent, a camel’s nose under the tent…they’ve got a right to that point of view – I think they’re wrong and I think it would be terrible for the country and for health care, so I’ve got to stop it.

Lieberman was the 60th vote in the Dem caucus; they had every other 59 votes at the time.

Scott Brown's election gave them only 59 votes;making it impossible for them to pass the public option without a Repub vote.

End of story. Do your homework.

It was Lieberman's revenge for being primary'd by the very Far Lefties that now whine about no public option. You may not have noticed, but give it some time - the universe likes to F with mindless ideologues whether on the Right or the Far Left. That's why certain Far Lefties still crying about the loss of the public option make me do this -

"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

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Post#4999 at 11-04-2013 08:01 PM by JohnMc82 [at Back in Jax joined Jan 2011 #posts 1,962]
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Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
Dude, here is Lieberman speaking on Face the Nation back on Nov. 1, 2009 -

And here is Lieberman speaking to CNS News on Nov. 10:

Lieberman was the 60th vote in the Dem caucus; they had every other 59 votes at the time.

Scott Brown's election gave them only 59 votes;making it impossible for them to pass the public option without a Repub vote.

End of story. Do your homework.

It was Lieberman's revenge for being primary'd by the very Far Lefties that now whine about no public option. You may not have noticed, but give it some time - the universe likes to F with mindless ideologues whether on the Right or the Far Left. That's why certain Far Lefties still crying about the loss of the public option make me do this -
It was rejected by committee, after Baucus failed to include it in his rough draft... but that's Lieberman's fault?

And the folks pushing the amendment - Schumer & Rockefeller - are the radical left?

At the very least, I have to give you points for creativity.
Those words, "temperate and moderate", are words either of political cowardice, or of cunning, or seduction. A thing, moderately good, is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper, is always a virtue; but moderation in principle, is a species of vice.

'82 - Once & always independent







Post#5000 at 11-04-2013 08:36 PM by Bad Dog [at joined Dec 2012 #posts 2,156]
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http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/insu...ters-obamacare

Across the country, insurance companies have sent misleading letters to consumers, trying to lock them into the companies' own, sometimes more expensive health insurance plans rather than let them shop for insurance and tax credits on the Obamacare marketplaces -- which could lead to people like Donna spending thousands more for insurance than the law intended. In some cases, mentions of the marketplace in those letters are relegated to a mere footnote, which can be easily overlooked.
The extreme lengths to which some insurance companies are going to hold on to existing customers at higher price, as the Affordable Care Act fundamentally re-orders the individual insurance market, has caught the attention of state insurance regulators.
The insurance companies argue that it's simply capitalism at work. But regulators don't see it that way. By warning customers that their health insurance plans are being canceled as a result of Obamacare and urging them to secure new insurance plans before the Obamacare launched on Oct. 1, these insurers put their customers at risk of enrolling in plans that were not as good or as affordable as what they could buy on the marketplaces.
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