The people speak. The politicians turn a deaf ear.

Originally Posted by Deb C

While many of the Republicans are bat poop crazy, just blaming them is part of the problem. Eric, we have a very broken and and crooked political system. Unfortunately, every time you insist it is just one party and not the system, then we take steps backward. Just like the case of Obama, he's is not the cause of this insanity with the ACA - HE. IS. PART. OF. THIS. DIRTY. ROTTEN. SYSTEM. It has taken a political system of both parties to get us where we are today.

Your post obfuscates the issue I was raising. I was speaking of a particular fact and answering a specific question; states that opt out of Medicaid expansion won't make more health care available to the poor. Those states all have Republican governors. That is just a fact. Making this into an assertion that I am in favor of the current political system, is an unfair diversion from my point.

But anyway, in the larger context, no, it takes us forward to blame one party and not the other. It is clear which party favors reform and which one doesn't. That should be obvious to you by now. Who supported Citizens United? Republican-appointed justices. The system is only as good as the political behavior of its members. That means all of us. The system needs to be changed. I agree both parties use the system to their benefit. One party is far more willing to change it than the other. But neither party changes without the pressure from the people. Republicans are hopeless; Democrats are only as good as the people make them.

Yes, we DO need to insist on getting the Republicans out. I of course am all in favor of independent voices and third parties too; I support and usually vote for one myself. We need all possible methods, both within the system and outside the establishment, to bring change. Whatever works. Although I am a Green, I disagree with rigid views among my fellow lefties and radicals or whatever, that say all establishment politicians are bad because they are part of the system. You need to pick and choose. You can support non-establishment candidates outside the parties, and you can also support Democrats who challenge the system. The Left is not going to win following the Occupy political strategy. It has to use the Tea Party strategy. The Left needs to "primary" DINOs and win elections.

We seriously have no one representing us because the money speaks louder than the citizen voice. Many of the young people are understanding how the system is rigged. We older farts just seem to keep our loyalties to a party instead of justice for all. Too often we treat this politics like a sporting event or an American idol show.

That's all true, but it's not the main problem. It is we the people who need to inform ourselves, understand the facts and not be persuaded by the propaganda that money buys. It is up to us not to be deceived. It is not really that difficult to see the falsity of things like trickle-down economics, if you are honestly concerned and willing to read. There are good politicians who represent us too. They deserve our support. Obama deserves support when he does the right thing, and he deserves to hear from us when he doesn't.

I have purposefully held a light to the pocket that Obama is in because there have been too many excuses for his corporate ways. It's time we stop being an enabler of slick politicians, on both sides, who pretend to work for us while fitting snuggley in the corporate pocket.

There is no political center any longer.

Of course; we need to pressure and expose elected officials and not just vote for them or against them. Of course I have said that over and over. I didn't vote for Obama; I voted for Jill Stein. But I do send him letters and emails, and he (or his political mechanism) thinks I am a supporter.

Originally Posted by playwrite

What are you going to blame him for next; the Simpsons coming off of TV? Last I looked, Obama doesn't vote in NC. If a majority of NC folks are too stupid to know what's good for them, that is primarily their own damn fault.

Keep it up with that - "the people are too stupid to know what's good for them." That's exactly the kind of shit that gives fuel to the GOP and keeps the idiot party on life support. Democrats: the party of aging NYC trust fund kids who think workers are too dumb to recognize their own self interest.

Somewhere upstream you said that you could go on your wife's policy. I might have missed your correction on that.

No that was never an option. The only option is if we want to keep her on her incredibly efficient policy, or seek subsidies by switching her to a private plan. We don't know how much staying on her plan will cost, but it would definitely eliminate our eligibility for any subsidy.

The point still holds that you would be getting govt subsidized insurance which is a lot more that what 100s of thousands of NC are getting. I'm sympathetic to your plight but really in the scheme of things its no where near the bad things that are happening to other people as a result of a-holes fighting the ACA and no where near tipping the balance against all the good things the ACA is bringing to millions of others.

You're right - plenty of people are worse off than me, but I'm not as intimately familiar with the details of their situation as I am with my own. Needless to say, it is infuriating when you try to count me and people in my situation as "winners" when we are really getting kinda ripped off here. It makes me question whether there are really any winners at all (outside of Wall Street).

Dude, I am very sympathetic to you having this illness. So let me give you some really needed advice about this - SHUT THE F UP ABOUT IT FOR YOUR OWN SAKE!!!

The insurers pay investigators big bucks to find people like you that have not reported pre-conditions. AND IT IS A PRECONDITION REGARDLESS IF YOU USED THE INSURER'S MONEY OR IF YOU SOUGHT CARE OUTSIDE OF ORDINARY MEDICAL DELIVERY. They can cancel your policy for ANY claim. If you use their money they can seek reimbursement from you through the courts, and that's only if they are in a good mood. If they had a bad lunch, they might even attempt to bring criminal fraud charges against you.

I know this does't sound nice but it is for your own good - your having that great policy at low cost is fraudulent in the eyes of your insurer if they catch you. DO NOT PASS GO, DO NOT COLLECT 200 DOLLARS! Get your ass off that policy and onto the one offered on the exchange. When that's done, count your blessings - you've dodged a bullet.

Uh what? I never made any deceptive or untrue claims on any insurance application. I have never received an official diagnosis or treatment for Celiac Disease, I've just come to a better understanding of my own immune system and what sets it off. Are they gonna sue me to refund the thousands of dollars I've already dropped in to the insurance scam bucket for zero treatment?

If your point is that insurers are malicious bastards with no concern for their customers, then I'm in complete agreement with that. I just don't understand how forcing everyone to become a customer is somehow a solution we should be proud of, or a solution we expect to result in electoral victories.

Originally Posted by The Rani

I'm not the stupid one here. I'm the one who has actually signed off on Medicaid applications.

From the website:


And another one:

I repeat ... income level is NOT the only determinant of Medicaid eligibility!

Yes, and at some point it will rain.

What you said was someone making only $11K is going to pay $2K in premiums. That's crazy before the ACA and its just as crazy after ACA.

As far as I know every state allows for Medicaid coverage for an individual making $11K - it doesn't matter whether Obamacare exists or not.

There is very little if any non-income related criteria that would bump off a person making just $11K. I'm open to finding some exceptions, but those would still be exceptions.

If you lack such basic understanding and yet sign off on Medicaid applications, God help us.

Originally Posted by Deb C

While many of the Republicans are bat poop crazy, just blaming them is part of the problem. Eric, we have a very broken and and crooked political system. Unfortunately, every time you insist it is just one party and not the system, then we take steps backward. Just like the case of Obama, he's is not the cause of this insanity with the ACA - HE. IS. PART. OF. THIS. DIRTY. ROTTEN. SYSTEM. It has taken a political system of both parties to get us where we are today.

We seriously have no one representing us because the money speaks louder than the citizen voice. Many of the young people are understanding how the system is rigged. We older farts just seem to keep our loyalties to a party instead of justice for all. Too often we treat this politics like a sporting event or an American idol show.

I have purposefully held a light to the pocket that Obama is in because there have been too many excuses for his corporate ways. It's time we stop being an enabler of slick politicians, on both sides, who pretend to work for us while fitting snuggley in the corporate pocket.

There is no political center any longer.

The system he is part of is the American Enterprise system that includes private health insurers. People say they want single payer but just threaten to take away the employer-based (i.e. PRIVATE insurance) that most people have and it will make the hysteria of those being cancelled on the individual markets look like a kubaya party. A politician would have a better chance surviving taking on SS and Medicare.

Until you clueless nuts realize this and start dealing with it, you are going to remain completely ignored let alone having even the slightest chance of effecting the tiniest of change. Your ignorance is your biggest problem.

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

You asked why, and the answer always leads to Max Baucus. Industry wanted (still wants) an industry-friendly law, and Baucus was the single biggest tool in their toolkit.

So everything profitable is focused on private inustry, and things that aren't are purposely spartan and less than user friendly. If Baucus had not been in a position to sway the focus of the ACA, Medicare-For-All may have emerged as the solution. We would have gotten the Public Optoin a the very least.

Baucus was all signed on with Reid and ready to go with single payer - it was Joe Lieberman who screwed us.

What state has the highest number of headquarters for the insurance industry?

Originally Posted by Deb C

The people speak. The politicians turn a deaf ear.

Your hubris is believing that 75% want what you want. They don't.

Originally Posted by playwrite

Baucus was all signed on with Reid and ready to go with single payer - it was Joe Lieberman who screwed us.

What state has the highest number of headquarters for the insurance industry?

Not a response to the above, but when you feel like taking a break from your shitflinging, I'd be real curious to hear what you meant about the future of the Democratic coalition. You see, you are by all appearances a living example of what I was talking about.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

But anyway, in the larger context, no, it takes us forward to blame one party and not the other. It is clear which party favors reform and which one doesn't. That should be obvious to you by now. Who supported Citizens United? Republican-appointed justices. The system is only as good as the political behavior of its members. That means all of us. The system needs to be changed. I agree both parties use the system to their benefit. One party is far more willing to change it than the other. But neither party changes without the pressure from the people. Republicans are hopeless; Democrats are only as good as the people make them.

The majority of people wanted a public option or single payer. So much for the politicians listening. As long as we keep supporting the candidates who we think might win, versus the candidates that can challenge the dysfunction of our political system, we will stay mired in the muck of a corporate owned political system.

For me, challenging the entire system moves us closer to transforming this debacle. Let's face it, we currently have the evil and lesser evil at work in Washington. Settling for lesser evil, is still evil.

Originally Posted by playwrite

As far as I know every state allows for Medicaid coverage for an individual making $11K - it doesn't matter whether Obamacare exists or not.

There is very little if any non-income related criteria that would bump off a person making just $11K. I'm open to finding some exceptions, but those would still be exceptions.

My understanding is states can restrict Medicaid eligibility to nonfinancial criteria.

As of 2013, Medicaid is a program intended for those with low income, but a low income is not the only requirement to enroll in the program. Eligibility is categorical—that is, to enroll you must be a member of a category defined by statute; some of these categories include low-income children below a certain age, pregnant women, parents of Medicaid-eligible children who meet certain income requirements, and low-income seniors. The details of how each category is defined varies from state to state.

In other words, if you are a nondisabled, nonelderly childless person living in the wrong state, you can have zero income and still not qualify for Medicaid.

Originally Posted by Deb C

The majority of people wanted a public option or single payer. So much for the politicians listening. As long as we keep supporting the candidates who we think might win, versus the candidates that can challenge the dysfunction of our political system, we will stay mired in the muck of a corporate owned political system.

You know what happened to the public option by now. Max Baucus and his cohorts stopped it. Reid and most Democrats supported it. You can't just lump every politician together and condemn them all, and only support a few that can't get elected, without looking at what is actually going on.

For me, challenging the entire system moves us closer to transforming this debacle. Let's face it, we currently have the evil and lesser evil at work in Washington. Settling for lesser evil, is still evil.

I'm not sure that, without good strategy, it is not just throwing rocks at a skyscraper and expecting it to fall down. We need to challenge the system. How do you do that? Support a constitutional amendment to take money out of politics. Elect candidates who will change the system, whether Democrat or independent. Throw out candidates who don't, whether Democrat or Republican. It will take many people working both within and outside the current system to change it. But it must be changed during this 4T. It will take time, but the 4T lasts until 2028.

A number of things must be changed. Gerrymandering must be ended, for example.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

You know what happened to the public option by now. Max Baucus and his cohorts stopped it. Reid and most Democrats supported it. You can't just lump every politician together and condemn them all, and only support a few that can't get elected, without looking at what is actually going on.

I'm not sure that, without good strategy, it is not just throwing rocks at a skyscraper and expecting it to fall down. We need to challenge the system. How do you do that? Support a constitutional amendment to take money out of politics. Elect candidates who will change the system, whether Democrat or independent. Throw out candidates who don't, whether Democrat or Republican. It will take many people working both within and outside the current system to change it. But it must be changed during this 4T. It will take time, but the 4T lasts until 2028.

A number of things must be changed. Gerrymandering must be ended, for example.

As you already know, education about the issues is crucial. And I'm not talking about what the main stream media feeds us but the underbelly of the political system. Then there's the importance of involvement in the movements that address injustice. Like those who put time, money, and energy into the recent past elections.

People Power Expressed In Elections

Sometimes it feels like elections are an exercise in futility. We live in a mirage democracy in which major party candidates are vetted by the corporate machine before they get on the ballot and third party candidates who represent the values of the movement are undercut by actions in which the major parties collude against them.
History instructs that in this environment, it is important to build the movement and use what tools are available to shift power to the people. San Francisco-based lawyer-activist Randy Shaw writes in his new edition of The Activist’s Handbook “that neither politicians nor political parties are the prime movers for progressive change.”


The elections this week provide many lessons for the movement. Third party candidates built their bases and honed the skills of their campaign teams so they can try again next time. The greatest successes and lessons from failures were in the area of direct democracy through voter initiatives.

Voter Initiatives Solve Critical Problems
We may be at the beginning of the end of poverty wages for workers. Two votes showed progress in the minimum wage battle in Washington State and in New Jersey. South Dakota, Alaska and Idaho will likely be voting on raising the minimum wage in upcoming elections.


It is urgent that the race to the bottom in wages ends. A report this week showed that 40 percent of Americans earn under $25,000 annually. In this 40 percent the average income is $17,500. Fifty percent of Americans earn under $30,000. The U.S. has become a nation of poverty-wage workers, rather than one with a vibrant middle class.







MORE: http://www.popularresistance.org/pop...-in-elections/

"Those groups that directly challenge the system and cannot be co-opted by money or access are routinely infiltrated for the purpose of spying, dividing and destroying. More evidence of infiltration and spying on Occupy is coming to light."

"We live in a mirage democracy. Elections have become expensive spectacles with $2 billion presidential campaigns and a corporate media that reports on the political drama every day for months on end. Elections are tightly controlled, rigged for the two parties by restrictive ballot access laws, a corporate-run debate commission that blocks third parties, gerrymandered voting districts, unverifiable computer vote counts and a mass media that does not cover alternatives to the corporate duopoly. US voting systems are among the least democratic in the world. They lack modern, more democratic approaches like universal voter registration, proportional representation and ranked choice or instant run-off voting. Only half the US public is registered, and only half of registered voters vote, so these mirage elections provide a less than legitimate government." .... Kevin Zeese


Lifting the Veil of Mirage Democracy in the United States

http://truth-out.org/news/item/14489...-united-states

Originally Posted by Deb C

"Those groups that directly challenge the system and cannot be co-opted by money or access are routinely infiltrated for the purpose of spying, dividing and destroying. More evidence of infiltration and spying on Occupy is coming to light."

"We live in a mirage democracy. Elections have become expensive spectacles with $2 billion presidential campaigns and a corporate media that reports on the political drama every day for months on end. Elections are tightly controlled, rigged for the two parties by restrictive ballot access laws, a corporate-run debate commission that blocks third parties, gerrymandered voting districts, unverifiable computer vote counts and a mass media that does not cover alternatives to the corporate duopoly. US voting systems are among the least democratic in the world. They lack modern, more democratic approaches like universal voter registration, proportional representation and ranked choice or instant run-off voting. Only half the US public is registered, and only half of registered voters vote, so these mirage elections provide a less than legitimate government." .... Kevin Zeese


Lifting the Veil of Mirage Democracy in the United States

http://truth-out.org/news/item/14489...-united-states

I do agree with these points!

I hope we can change the system in this 4T. It's what 4Ts are for.

Originally Posted by The Rani

No I didn't, you dumbfuck. I said this:

The only part of that I take back is the part about destroying ACA. If they don't care about below-poverty-level folks buying into the system, then it probably won't make much difference whether they do or not.
Which sucks for those folks, but at least it doesn't suck worse than it did before.

I don't see how anybody can interpret what you wrote as being anything but you believing/stating that the ACA is trying to make a person with only $11K income pay $2K in premiums. You're either a very poor communicator or very uninformed - both pointing clearly to you being the dumbfuck.

It's not just that such a person would be eligible for Medicaid in most if not all states (I said I wasn't sure if it was 100%) but the ACA has a limit on the % of income for premiums if surpassed the individual does not have to get insurance and will not be penalized, dumbfuck.

Originally Posted by The Wonkette

My understanding is states can restrict Medicaid eligibility to nonfinancial criteria.


In other words, if you are a nondisabled, nonelderly childless person living in the wrong state, you can have zero income and still not qualify for Medicaid.

I read that as being additional criteria that would allow a state to offer Medicaid to more people, not necessarily as limitations imposed to restrict people who would otherwise qualify based on income. This is a state-by-state determination; we have to see what each is doing to see if Rani's $11K person would be screwed in some states. As I said from the start, I wasn't sure for every state, but I believe it to be the exception although maybe more prevalent in the Red states. And if true, that would be another reason why the GOP a-holes turning down the Expansion borders on pure evil.

There are other things at play (ACA requirements/limitations) that make Rani's assertion pure horseshit.

Originally Posted by The Rani

Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Maybe it will penetrate his thick skull if it comes from a non-"nihilist."

Funny, coming from the person who believes the ACA is trying to force someone making $11K to pay $2K in premiums. Do you ever stop and think about the horseshit coming out of your mouth?

Originally Posted by Deb C

The people speak. The politicians turn a deaf ear...

Of course they do. Politicians, like the rest of us, work for those who pay them. Until that's changed, the rest is just details.

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

Of course they do. Politicians, like the rest of us, work for those who pay them. Until that's changed, the rest is just details.

This is why this following movement is so important.

"Whether your passion is protecting the environment or creating green jobs or improving public education—or really any other issue on which corporate interests are blocking real solutions—this is your campaign too."

5 Ways You Can Fight CitizensUnited

The Story of Citizens United v FEC: How we the people can reclaim our democracy.

"The Citizens United v. FEC decision makes this problem even worse. Reversing it is a critical step to reclaiming our democracy by the people and for the people. Yes, we know that reversing this case won’t immediately prevent the myriad other ways that corporations exert influence in our democracy, but it is a really, really important place to start. Reversing a Supreme Court decision requires a new Constitutional Amendment so we’re joining with a number of organizations launching a national campaign to obtain one. It’s not going to be quick or easy, but working for big changes requires big efforts. And while we’re working on it, we can be building a broad-based national movement to get corporations completely out of our democracy—and get the people back in."

http://www.yesmagazine.org/people-po...itizens-united

• Democracy: Use it or Lose it
• ​
  "One reason corporations have been able to hijack our democracy is that many of us haven’t engaged much in it ourselves lately. If we want policy makers who prioritize public good, healthy jobs, and a sustainable environment, we need to get involved, hold them accountable, and engage as active citizens every day—not just on voting day. Join a local organization working on an issue you care about, host a community event to share information, write letters to your congresspeople and local newspapers to share your opinion. There are an infinite number of ways to get involved and once enough of us do, we can take back our government so that it really is by the people, for the people. Then, we can get to work solving today’s pressing problems with a government working for us, instead of big business." ... Annie Leanord

Originally Posted by The Rani

You first.
This discussion has caused you to drop a rung on my "respectability" scale.
And here I had thought you were already at rock bottom.

I admitted that I didn't know about the exemptions for penalties. And I'm very glad that they exist!
Will you admit that you don't know shit about Medicaid eligibility?

As evidenced here:

I've helped patients fill out Medicaid applications in California and Illinois.
Yes, that's right, a PHYSICIAN has to sign off on those forms to document eligibility requirements. Income levels alone are not sufficient.
As I said, you're the dumbfuck. Educate yourself or shut the hell up.

Here's a fact sheet from the actual Medicaid program, not from Wikipedia -

http://www.medicaid.gov/Medicaid-CHI...igibility.html

Nearly the entire page is about income level eligibility but clarifying that states can use additional criteria to EXPAND eligibility. It also makes clear that it is a FEDERAL REQUIREMENT that families with children and income at the FPL will be covered REGARDLESS of what state they reside in.

Yes, it is unclear whether individuals at the FPL will be covered in any particlar state, but you have provided ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE that any state does not in this exchange we've had; instead you've relied on another poster providing an ambiguous general statement from Wikipedia.

Moreover, from the beginning, I said I wasn't sure if coverage was provided in every state.

And finally, as I have educated you in this exchange, there are other things such as the ACA limits that makes your suggestion of the $11K person paying $2K premiums absolutely preposterous.

The icing on the cake here, however, is the Medicaid Expansion that is part of the ACA that you rail against, requires EVERYONE with incomes below 138% of the FPL to be eligible regardless of what state. That makes this a non-issue except in States where the GOP type of a-holes that you obviously support are so caught up in your shared hatred of all things Obama they would deny the most needy basic health care coverage.

In addition to your repulsion of anything of the commons, I believe the issue here is your confusing your Medicaid eligibility sign-offs with your pill prescriptions and giving both the same level of thought which obviously is nil for a nihilist - you know, what the fuck is the difference as long as YOUR bills are getting paid.

Originally Posted by Deb C

..."One reason corporations have been able to hijack our democracy is that many of us haven’t engaged much in it ourselves lately. If we want policy makers who prioritize public good, healthy jobs, and a sustainable environment, we need to get involved, hold them accountable, and engage as active citizens every day—not just on voting day. Join a local organization working on an issue you care about, host a community event to share information, write letters to your congresspeople and local newspapers to share your opinion. There are an infinite number of ways to get involved and once enough of us do, we can take back our government so that it really is by the people, for the people. Then, we can get to work solving today’s pressing problems with a government working for us, instead of big business." ... Annie Leanord

But people aren't engaged, and the constant sturm und drang of this group and that cause has produced a numbness in all but the most activist members of society. Even the highly involved are getting overwhelmed. So the push back ithat should be there s neutalized, and is likely to remain that way until something tragic or threatening enough arouses the numb from their stupor.

Nothing of substance will happen until that happens first.

Well, another day, another two hours trying to make progress on the exchange website and sitting on hold.

They've merged my two broken applications in to one broken application, but multiple customer service representatives have assured me there's nothing they can do to fix it at this time.

The website still says that the "life changes" section will be available on 11/15/2013, and that I should check back then.

Democrats are going to win so many elections with this one.

Why Healthcare.gov Sucks? Because They Hired Political Cronies, Not Internet Native Companies To Build It

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20131010/01484924821/

The Sunlight Foundation (link above) figured out the list of contractors who worked on the site, and noted that the big ones not only are well-known DC power-player insiders, but they're also big on the lobbying and political contributions side of things. You've got companies like... Booz Allen Hamilton, famous for promoting cyberwar hype and employing Ed Snowden. There's defense contracting giant Northrup Grumman. Then there's SAIC -- which I can't believe can still get government business. This is the same firm that famously was given a $380 million contract to revamp the FBI system, on which it went $220 million over budget, and then saw the entire system scrapped after it (literally) brought some users to tears, and the FBI realized it was useless in fighting terrorism

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

But people aren't engaged, and the constant sturm und drang of this group and that cause has produced a numbness in all but the most activist members of society. Even the highly involved are getting overwhelmed. So the push back ithat should be there s neutalized, and is likely to remain that way until something tragic or threatening enough arouses the numb from their stupor.

Nothing of substance will happen until that happens first.

Smoke and mirrors, bread and circus', are for sure keeping us numb and dumbed down. As I see it, one step in a movement to transform a system is better than giving up. At this point the movements in place can be ready when things do fall apart.

A huge problem by those who want fairness in our country, is that they use valuable time making excuses and defending bad policies, rather than putting energy into demanding just policies.

Originally Posted by JohnMc82

Well, another day, another two hours trying to make progress on the exchange website and sitting on hold.

They've merged my two broken applications in to one broken application, but multiple customer service representatives have assured me there's nothing they can do to fix it at this time.

The website still says that the "life changes" section will be available on 11/15/2013, and that I should check back then.

Democrats are going to win so many elections with this one.

Brace yourself for the storm of excuses.

Are you ready for some major rationalizations regarding this solid information you just posted?