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Thread: It's time for national healthcare - Page 212







Post#5276 at 11-27-2013 12:56 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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And this is the low point???

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewir...-will-be-fixed

Poll: Majority Optimistic That Obamacare Problems Will Be Fixed

A majority of Americans believes it's too soon to label the Affordable Care Act a failure and that the problems that have plagued the law's rollout will eventually be fixed, according to a poll released Wednesday.

The latest CNN/ORC International poll showed that 53 percent of Americans think it's too early to characterize the health care law as a failure, while 54 percent expressed optimism that the problems currently plaguing Obamacare be resolved.

Almost four in 10 called the law a failure and 45 percent said its flaws will never be fixed.

The survey also showed a majority of Americans (58 percent) are opposed to the Affordable Care Act — a continuation of a recent trend —but the pollsters provided context for the source of the opposition.

Forty-one percent said they oppose the law because it's too liberal, while 14 percent said it isn't liberal enough. As CNN noted, this means that 54 percent either support the Affordable Care Act or believe it isn't liberal enough.

The CNN/ORC poll was conducted Nov. 18-20 using live phone interviews with 843 American adults. It has a margin of error of 3.5 percentage points.
too funny.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#5277 at 11-27-2013 01:14 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
Hey, that will be just peachy keen when the insurance industry collapses!
I think you may have a reading comprehension problem; you should look into that.

Maybe during your spin class - a full functioning brain would go well with that buff body of yours.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#5278 at 11-27-2013 01:18 PM by stilltim [at Chicago, IL joined Aug 2007 #posts 483]
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11-27-2013, 01:18 PM #5278
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Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
However, I do admit when I run across morons like you, gleeful at the prospect of millions continuing to live in misery, I'm more that willing to point you out with pleasure. I enjoy it.
See now this is why you have been called a liar repeatedly (and deservedly so.) You can't formulate an argument without misrepresenting the beliefs of your opponents... thereby setting up a strawman for you to knock down.

Conservatives have no relish of anyone's poverty. We just have different solutions to it and we know full well liberal solutions have a habit of hurting the very people they are meant to help.

Quit misrepresenting a difference in approach as a lack of commitment. Liar.







Post#5279 at 11-27-2013 01:24 PM by stilltim [at Chicago, IL joined Aug 2007 #posts 483]
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Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
You need to look up-thread and on other threads of who starts with the 'assholes' and 'dumbfucks' in most cases.
In this case, it's you. You were the one who started it by calling me a moron and intentionally misrepresenting the beliefs of conservatives to set up your stupid straw man argument.

Liar.







Post#5280 at 11-27-2013 08:13 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by stilltim View Post
See now this is why you have been called a liar repeatedly (and deservedly so.) You can't formulate an argument without misrepresenting the beliefs of your opponents... thereby setting up a strawman for you to knock down.

Conservatives have no relish of anyone's poverty. We just have different solutions to it and we know full well liberal solutions have a habit of hurting the very people they are meant to help.

Quit misrepresenting a difference in approach as a lack of commitment. Liar.
Ah, I'm not allowed to take the short cut, hey?

Okay dude, let's run the table with you.

Start here - the ACA is intended to bring insurance to 15% of the population that doesn't have it. What's your 'conservative' alternative to make that happen? And don't bother with the 'buying cross state lines,' 'reduce malpractice suits' or giving Medicare folks vouchers because if you do I'll wipe the floor with you.

So go on, bright boy, let's see what you got that pulls you out of the moron box.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#5281 at 11-27-2013 08:15 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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11-27-2013, 08:15 PM #5281
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
Hot chicks with the minds of nine-year-olds should be just your type.
Regardless, I'm still confused about how insurance companies are going to be providing such great benefits for us all while simultaneously getting out of the business.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink.

I laid it out for you as simply as I can; if you don't get it, you'll just have to wait it out and watch.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#5282 at 11-27-2013 09:19 PM by Copperfield [at joined Feb 2010 #posts 2,244]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
Maybe Danilynn made all that shit up because she loves getting you to foam at the mouth incoherently.
Oh Rani... That isn't "foam" coming out of his mouth. He just needs some wet naps.







Post#5283 at 11-28-2013 09:17 AM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink.

I laid it out for you as simply as I can; if you don't get it, you'll just have to wait it out and watch.
She is just being purposely contrary. No one with more than a limited set of brain cells can be that clueless.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#5284 at 11-28-2013 09:37 AM by JohnMc82 [at Back in Jax joined Jan 2011 #posts 1,962]
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"We're gonna get everyone insurance!"

"We're gonna destroy the insurance industry!"

No, we're going to heavily subsidize the insurance industry while tens of millions of Americans continue on without insurance. (Not to mention millions of Americans who will have insurance they won't be able to afford to use).

Here's some actual CBO predictions for 2023: 31 million uninsured Americans, or 11% of the non-elderly population; $170 billion in unfunded subsidy costs; 7 million Americans losing employer coverage.

Here's some health insurance company stocks compared to the DJIA: Wellpoint up 200% in five years; Aetna up almost 300%; and Cigna has gone from a share price of $8 to over $80. If you scroll back the charts, one can see that insurer stocks split from the DJIA trend average at some point early in 2011.

Anyway, Happy Thanksgiving!
Last edited by JohnMc82; 11-28-2013 at 09:41 AM.
Those words, "temperate and moderate", are words either of political cowardice, or of cunning, or seduction. A thing, moderately good, is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper, is always a virtue; but moderation in principle, is a species of vice.

'82 - Once & always independent







Post#5285 at 11-28-2013 11:03 AM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
Then go here:

So what's the real purpose, bringing insurance to more people, or taking insurance away from everyone?
There's this notion know as "time." It actually is something pretty difficult to grasp at some deeper levels, but for you, just know that things change and that one thing can LEAD to another, but not necessarily happen at the same TIME.

It's probable best that you not have any children. On the one hand, it would not be a good thing for you to take your infant out to a bar for her 1st birthday and ply her with vodka martinis. On the other hand, she's going to be more that a little embarrassed by you trying to spoon feed Gerber's out of the jar when she's 24.

It's amazing the choices people make to avoid having to admit their worldview is false. You actually choose to appear to be imbecilic. Weird, but funny.

Now go get that tofu turkey cookin!
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#5286 at 11-28-2013 11:06 AM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
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Quote Originally Posted by JohnMc82 View Post
"We're gonna get everyone insurance!"

"We're gonna destroy the insurance industry!"

No, we're going to heavily subsidize the insurance industry while tens of millions of Americans continue on without insurance. (Not to mention millions of Americans who will have insurance they won't be able to afford to use).

Here's some actual CBO predictions for 2023: 31 million uninsured Americans, or 11% of the non-elderly population; $170 billion in unfunded subsidy costs; 7 million Americans losing employer coverage.

Here's some health insurance company stocks compared to the DJIA: Wellpoint up 200% in five years; Aetna up almost 300%; and Cigna has gone from a share price of $8 to over $80. If you scroll back the charts, one can see that insurer stocks split from the DJIA trend average at some point early in 2011.

Anyway, Happy Thanksgiving!
Precise and accurate! Thank you.

Happy Thanksgiving!
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#5287 at 11-28-2013 11:11 AM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
Oh my. Thanks for that image to start my holiday weekend.
Worse, imagine the horrific world Copp inhabits to consistently post such scuzziest.

I'll leave you instead with this -

"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#5288 at 11-28-2013 11:34 AM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
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IMHO, the following quote also applies to ACA.

Michael Parenti: "The enormous gap between what US leaders do in the world and what Americans think their leaders are doing is one of the great propaganda accomplishments of the dominate political mythology."
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#5289 at 11-28-2013 12:34 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by JohnMc82 View Post
"We're gonna get everyone insurance!"

"We're gonna destroy the insurance industry!"

No, we're going to heavily subsidize the insurance industry while tens of millions of Americans continue on without insurance. (Not to mention millions of Americans who will have insurance they won't be able to afford to use).

Here's some actual CBO predictions for 2023: 31 million uninsured Americans, or 11% of the non-elderly population; $170 billion in unfunded subsidy costs; 7 million Americans losing employer coverage.

Here's some health insurance company stocks compared to the DJIA: Wellpoint up 200% in five years; Aetna up almost 300%; and Cigna has gone from a share price of $8 to over $80. If you scroll back the charts, one can see that insurer stocks split from the DJIA trend average at some point early in 2011.

Anyway, Happy Thanksgiving!
Dude, you should know by now that posting half-truths on this subject is like red meat. Let's break it down -

Who are the 31 million that will still be uninsured? Look it up, dude. Hints; think illegal immigrants; people eligible for govt assistance but CHOOSE not to; AND people who would be eligible for Medicaid but for GOP governors deciding their comfy political jobs are more important than helping the most needy of their citizens. For that last one in particularly, one would have to be a complete clueless ass to think that was the fault of the ACA.

As for the 7 million losing employer-based, check the CBO footnote - the majority of the lost is based on the assumption of the continuation of trend BEFORE the ACA of people getting kicked off employer insurance. It's been going on for over a decade now. The ACA isn't causing it, dude, the ACA is trying to provide an ANSWER to it. Yes, about a 1/4 is estimated to be a result of the ACA and businesses (e.g., Trader Joes) deciding to make the switch because their employees have something to go to, but that doesn't mean that wouldn't have happen anyway because the underlying trend has been accelerating - something the CBO notes was not taken into account in their assumption.

And stepping back from the numbers, why do you believe an effort that reduces the uninsured by 25 million is somehow diminished by not doing it for everyone? You're obviously a sour-puss 1/2 empty kind of guy, but tell me who has a viable alternative that comes anywhere close to what the ACA has. Sure, we have the Far Lefties living in a dream world where we cancel EVERYONE'S insurance and move them over to Medicare; you can join them as they await their magic ponies to poop gold nuggets, but' I'm not. Then you have the Rightees and nihilists whining about this or that, but ask them for a viable alternative and you either get some malpractice, cross state lines, voucher system or other horseshit that's been proven time and time again to do nothing for the uninsured.

Then there's your half-truth of the $170B unfunded subsidies where you fail to mention that in the same CBO analysis they show the OVERALL NET impact is to reduce the federal deficit by $210B over the first 10 year period and even more over the next 10.

And then there's your incredible misdirection on the stock prices. Wellpoint was at 89.46 on Dec 17, 2007 - not only before the stock market crash but before most people had heard of Barrack Obama let alone Obamacare. Yes, today it's at 93.62 - a nearly 5% return, woo-who! Except, well, that's over 6 years so it's an annual return of less that 1% - about what you could get sitting in a bank CD.

I could be really mean here and tell you that you would be a fine 'reporter' on Faux News, but given that it's Thanksgiving, I'll tone it down and just tell you that you're a jerk. Also, its getting near the end of the year, if you can't think of any good New Year's resolutions - I have a big suggestion for you.

Happy Thanksgiving
Last edited by playwrite; 11-29-2013 at 11:15 AM.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#5290 at 11-28-2013 12:41 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by Deb C View Post
Precise and accurate! Thank you.

Happy Thanksgiving!

Hey, Debs have you and your tribe signed any uninsured up for coverage yet? What, not a single person????

Well, I guess we can all be thankful today that we don't have to wait for you all to accomplish anything. Obamacare has already past its one million mark! You know, actually accomplishing something? You might want to consider something along those lines for your New Year's resolution.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#5291 at 11-28-2013 01:48 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
Oh yeah? Fuck you, too.
I'm evidenced based, so I'll add that to the evidence pile.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#5292 at 11-28-2013 06:04 PM by Bad Dog [at joined Dec 2012 #posts 2,156]
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I don't want to think of what the product of a union between myself and Rani would be like... It would result in a pretty scary horror movie.







Post#5293 at 11-29-2013 12:50 AM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
So what's the real purpose, bringing insurance to more people, or taking insurance away from everyone?
That is the same purpose. The cure for our health care debacle is to get rid of the insurance industry, at least on a basic level. They are an unnecessary and costly middle-man. Medicare for All is the cure; it's simple and it works. Until the people are ready to embrace the obvious, and don't keep falling victim to the deceptive trickle-down anti-socialist yadda yadda yadda bull crap, then we have to make do the best we can with these flawed and half-assed substitutes for the real thing, like Obamacare.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#5294 at 11-29-2013 11:05 AM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
You really don't get it, do you.
Deb doesn't consider signing people up for insurance to be any kind of "accomplishment."
P.S. Deb, feel free to correct me if you think that I've oversimplified your position.
At the surface, you are wrong. Deb wants single payer; Medicaid is single payer and the ACA is on track to sign up millions to Medicaid single payer - nothing else has accomplished anything anywhere near that since the original Medicaid/Medicare programs.

You are, however, hovering around something in the ether. Hint - its does have something to do with single payer; something to do with a particular single condition; and most importantly, something for a particular single person. Oh, and the clock is ticking.

And you thought I didn't get it. Some times I wonder about you.
Last edited by playwrite; 11-29-2013 at 11:19 AM.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#5295 at 11-29-2013 11:11 AM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
At least this is an honest response.
But I still don't see how increasing the number of people paying for private insurance is going to destroy the industry.
And don't even some Medicare plans involve private insurers?

For example, I've been hearing a lot about this lately, though I don't know as much about Medicare as I do about Medicaid:
Medicare Advantage: How It Works

So I don't agree at all that more Medicare = destroying the private insurance industry.
If you bother to look upstream, you will note that I said one aspect of the coming business model for the insurers will be offering supplemental insurance to that of single payer; it is a pretty standard model in countries with single payer.

Also, if you can get away from the need to hyperventilate about 'destroying,' you will note that I never said these companies are going to go away but instead they will consolidate, adopt different business models (e.g. supplemental) and get into other lines of business both related and unrelated to health care. You just want to make this hard because its difficult to climb down magical ponies.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#5296 at 11-29-2013 11:29 AM by JohnMc82 [at Back in Jax joined Jan 2011 #posts 1,962]
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Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
If you bother to look upstream, you will note that I said one aspect of the coming business model for the insurers will be offering supplemental insurance to that of single payer; it is a pretty standard model in countries with single payer.
Can I hyperventilate about the literal meanings of political economy jargon? That isn't single payer!!!

Single payer means one payer. The only good contemporary example is in Taiwan, where everyone is on something like Medicare, and that's all there is to it. Even the NHS, Canadian, and Australia health services are moving toward multi-payer universal solutions as you've described above. It's the "common" universal healthcare solution, and it's one that hasn't even entered the debate here in America.

Single-payer universal systems are best at containing costs, but they don't deliver the best service. Universal access is offset by relatively long waiting times, and mediocore, uniform care.

Multi-payer universal systems cost a bit more in the aggregate, but tend to deliver superior health outcomes. You can get whatever you can pay for, but even if you can't afford it, you'll get something. Basic plans are almost always non-profit. (Really, America is the only country I can think of that would try to force someone to buy a for-profit health insurance plan)

Patchwork, for-profit, multi-payer systems that leave millions without coverage, have the highest per-capita costs and worst health outcomes. I am absolutely opposed to expanding such a system piece by piece, especially as that leaves huge gaps in coverage while doing nothing to address the perverse profit incentives.

Does that make sense? I mean, it's really cool that some people who haven't had access to healthcare in forever are covered by the Medicare expansion. There are a lot of others who won't, just because they were born in the wrong state. Then even more who won't make the Medicare cutoff, but still won't be able to afford expensive premiums that barely cover anything.

But the Democrats spent a LOT of political capital to make this happen. Obama has pretty much staked his entire presidency on it.

Is that the best we can do with eight years? A half-baked Heritage Institute plan turned lobbyist wet dream? That isn't what the voters supported, that isn't what the economists supported, and it certainly isn't what the doctors supported. So we don't listen to the relevant experts, we don't listen to the population, we just listen to the people with money. Until that's fixed, every policy coming out of D.C. is destructive, regardless of how many pure and noble motivations one can spin into the intent.
Those words, "temperate and moderate", are words either of political cowardice, or of cunning, or seduction. A thing, moderately good, is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper, is always a virtue; but moderation in principle, is a species of vice.

'82 - Once & always independent







Post#5297 at 11-29-2013 04:20 PM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
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I'm not advocating that Canada is the perfect superior model, but compared to ACA, or our current system, it's eons ahead of us in health care. We need to be mindful that some of the negatives regarding Canadian health care, are in many respects, myths.


"In Canada, nobody dies due to lack of health insurance. In the United States, under Obamacare, many thousands will continue to die every year due to lack of health insurance."

"​In Canada, the majority of citizens love their health care system. In the United States, the majority of citizens, physicians, and nurses prefer the Canadian type system – single-payer, free choice of doctor and hospital , everybody in, nobody out."



Here are a few comparisons to ACA.


Number 21: In Canada, everyone is covered automatically at birth – everybody in, nobody out. In the United States, under Obamacare, 31 million Americans will still be uninsured by 2023 and millions more will remain underinsured.


Number 20: In Canada, the health system is designed to put people, not profits, first. In the United States, Obamacare will do little to curb insurance industry profits and will actually enhance insurance industry profits.



Number 19: In Canada, coverage is not tied to a job or dependent on your income – rich and poor are in the same system, the best guaranty of quality. In the United States, under Obamacare, much still depends on your job or income. Lose your job or lose your income, and you might lose your existing health insurance or have to settle for lesser coverage.


Number 18: In Canada, health care coverage stays with you for your entire life. In the United States, under Obamacare, for tens of millions of Americans, health care coverage stays with you for as long as you can afford your share.



Number 17: In Canada, you can freely choose your doctors and hospitals and keep them. There are no lists of “in-network” vendors and no extra hidden charges for going “out of network.” In the United States, under Obamacare, the in-network list of places where you can get treated is shrinking – thus restricting freedom of choice – and if you want to go out of network, you pay for it.



Number 16: In Canada, the health care system is funded by income, sales and corporate taxes that, combined, are much lower than what Americans pay in premiums. In the United States, under Obamacare, for thousands of Americans, it’s pay or die – if you can’t pay, you die. That’s why many thousands will still die every year under Obamacare from lack of health insurance to get diagnosed and treated in time.



Number 15: In Canada, there are no complex hospital or doctor bills. In fact, usually you don’t even see a bill. In the United States, under Obamacare, hospital and doctor bills will still be terribly complex, making it impossible to discover the many costly overcharges.



Number 14: In Canada, costs are controlled. Canada pays 10 percent of its GDP for its health care system, covering everyone. In the United States, under Obamacare, costs continue to skyrocket. The U.S. currently pays 18 percent of its GDP and still doesn’t cover tens of millions of people.



Number 13: In Canada, it is unheard of for anyone to go bankrupt due to health care costs. In the United States, under Obamacare, health care driven bankruptcy will continue to plague Americans.



Number 12: In Canada, simplicity leads to major savings in administrative costs and overhead. In the United States, under Obamacare, complexity will lead to ratcheting up administrative costs and overhead.



Number 11: In Canada, when you go to a doctor or hospital the first thing they ask you is: “What’s wrong?” In the United States, the first thing they ask you is: “What kind of insurance do you have?”


Number 10: In Canada, the government negotiates drug prices so they are more affordable. In the United States, under Obamacare, Congress made it specifically illegal for the government to negotiate drug prices for volume purchases, so they remain unaffordable.


Number 9: In Canada, the government health care funds are not profitably diverted to the top 1 percent. In the United States, under Obamacare, health care funds will continue to flow to the top. In 2012, CEOs at six of the largest insurance companies in the U.S. received a total of $83.3 million in pay, plus benefits.


Number 8: In Canada, there are no necessary co-pays or deductibles. In the United States, under Obamacare, the deductibles and co-pays will continue to be unaffordable for many millions of Americans.



Number 7: In Canada, the health care system contributes to social solidarity and national pride. In the United States, Obamacare is divisive, with rich and poor in different systems and tens of millions left out or with sorely limited benefits.


Number 6: In Canada, delays in health care are not due to the cost of insurance. In the United States, under Obamacare, patients without health insurance or who are underinsured will continue to delay or forgo care and put their lives at risk.


Number 5: In Canada, nobody dies due to lack of health insurance. In the United States, under Obamacare, many thousands will continue to die every year due to lack of health insurance.


Number 4: In Canada, an increasing majority supports their health care system, which costs half as much, per person, as in the United States. And in Canada, everyone is covered. In the United States, a majority – many for different reasons – oppose Obamacare.



Number 3: In Canada, the tax payments to fund the health care system are progressive – the lowest 20 percent pays 6 percent of income into the system while the highest 20 percent pays 8 percent. In the United States, under Obamacare, the poor pay a larger share of their income for health care than the affluent.


Number 2: In Canada, the administration of the system is simple. You get a health care card when you are born. And you swipe it when you go to a doctor or hospital. End of story. In the United States, Obamacare’s 2,500 pages-plus regulations (the Canadian Medicare Bill was 13 pages) is so complex that then Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi said before passage “we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it.”


Number 1: In Canada, the majority of citizens love their health care system. In the United States, the majority of citizens, physicians, and nurses prefer the Canadian type system – single-payer, free choice of doctor and hospital , everybody in, nobody out.





"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#5298 at 11-29-2013 04:29 PM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
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11-29-2013, 04:29 PM #5298
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Myths about Canada, U.S. health care debunked

Canadians aren’t flocking to U.S. for medical care

By Bill Mann

MarketWatch, The Wall Street Journal, Aug. 9, 2012

PORT TOWNSEND, Wash. (MarketWatch) — It’s a relief to see hard facts finally emerging on this side of the border about Canada’s single-payer health-care system.

For years I’ve heard Canada’s popular medicare (the Canadian term for universal health care) system slagged by lies, distortions, and outright ignorance on U.S. radio talk shows and other American popular media (where do people GET this stuff?). And for years, I’ve tried to set the record straight in my online and newspaper columns, having lived in Canada and actually having used their system. My son and his family are now covered by it in Vancouver.

Also, for years I’ve heard from Canadians, in Comments under my pieces and in email, thanking me for trying to set the record straight. They overwhelmingly like their medical delivery system, which turned 50 just last month.
I’ve also heard Canadian talk-show callers upset and incredulous about the nonsense being circulated south of the border about their single-payer medical system, which is still evolving as Ottawa pays less and the provinces pay more of growing health-care costs.


Anyone who wants a strong, honest defense of the Canadian system should keep a copy handy (and print out, as I have) a well-written piece — a touchstone, actually — in the latest online edition of the journal of the U.S.’ large and powerful AARP.


The well-researched, fact-based AARP article is written by an American, Aaron E. Carroll, M.D., and is titled “5 Myths About Canada’s Health Care System.” Its subhead:

“The truth may surprise you.” It just might, my fellow Americans.

MORE:

http://www.pnhp.org/news/2012/august...-care-debunked

"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#5299 at 11-29-2013 04:34 PM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
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11-29-2013, 04:34 PM #5299
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10 Myths About Canadian Health Care, Busted

http://www.pnhp.org/news/2008/februa...bout_canad.php
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#5300 at 11-29-2013 07:52 PM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
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11-29-2013, 07:52 PM #5300
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
You really don't get it, do you.
Deb doesn't consider signing people up for insurance to be any kind of "accomplishment."
P.S. Deb, feel free to correct me if you think that I've oversimplified your position.
First I must say that I'm glad that more people will have coverage to at least some degree. However, the ACA will leave many in the hands of the very corporations that lobbied with millions of dollars to stay in control of our health care.

I see the ACA as a very flawed system. People were told that this is all we can get. Therefore, the left just rolled over and never challenged that statement. There wasn't even a major backlash to the public option being thrown out. Instead, the left just decided to roll over and let the bullies win. So the poor little Democrats handed over their lunch money to the bullies. And the result is millions of dollars of subsidies being handed to some of the richest companies in this country.

The ACA has merely strengthened our already corporatized health care system and will continue it as just another product to be purchased.

I'll quote my mentor Dr. Margaret Flowers to further my reply.

" I actually see the Affordable Care Act as a step backwards. It takes us farther in the direction of privatized health care. And the way that we really need to go is towards greater--a publicly financed universal health care system. That's the most efficient and most equitable way to provide health care"

"What the Affordable Care Act does is it requires people to purchase private insurance. But that doesn't equate to actually being able to get the health care that you need. We haven't changed the behavior of the private insurance companies. And so they're still going to find ways to deny payment for care. And people are going to find that while they've paid out hundreds of dollars for health insurance, they won't have the money to actually pay for health services, because a lot of that cost is going to be coming up front first from the patients before their insurance even kicks in."
Last edited by Deb C; 11-29-2013 at 09:36 PM.
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a
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