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Thread: It's time for national healthcare - Page 230







Post#5726 at 03-02-2014 05:25 PM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
I think this movie (streams on Netflix) would be interesting for many folks who read this forum:



I'm posting it here because our "healthcare system" has become little more than another vehicle for the PTB to control us. Saying "purchase this crap or die" is the most powerful means of manipulation on their list. And the most morally reprehensible.

The message at the end of the movie is stop being a mindless consumer, because that's the only way to take our power back.

Applying that message to healthcare ...
Educate yourself about which kinds of medical treatments and/or insurance are likely to be beneficial, and which ones are likely to do no more than suck money out of your pockets. Try and consume logically rather than emotionally, a difficult thing when it comes to death and dying but worth it in the end.

End sermon.
Looks very interesting. However, since it's not main stream corporate owned media, many will discount it and write it off as a radical view. That is a sign of just how sheeple like we have become in this country. Anyway, thanks for submitting it. I plan to watch.
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#5727 at 03-09-2014 06:39 PM by Bronco80 [at Boise joined Nov 2013 #posts 964]
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Quote Originally Posted by Felix5 View Post
Yeah who the christ thought this would ever work?? What's sad is that we've become completely reliant on this system to the point that we're angry at people who don't have it. We blame people who didn't buy into this scheme for the "health care crisis." If I didn't have to have health insurance I probably wouldn't even bother like many Americans. Some people don't have a choice and employer based health care systems just make this problem even worse. IMO Insurance is just an obsolete concept.
I can't agree with your last sentence. Health care is perhaps the most classic example of a good that is best provided through insurance. You don't know when you need it, and when you do, you absolutely need it right away, and odds are that you can't just pay for it right out of pocket.

That said, we're obviously in agreement on employer-based health insurance, and I'm also sensing some agreements with how Obamacare was structured. The individual mandate is OK but the problem is that a lot of young people are going to get stuck paying for more insurance they really need. I've always been quite disturbed by the notion that universal health care can't happen without focusing on contribution of the young. There is a way, and it's called single payer. I hope Millennials who feel burned by Obamacare can get the power to set it up in the 1T, with fewer and fewer people worried about those dreaded "socialist" connotations.







Post#5728 at 03-10-2014 07:25 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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GRAPHIC: Roots Action logo header


GRAPHIC: Sign here button

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The cause of universal healthcare is alive and well. Not only is the state of Vermont moving toward a single-payer system, but Vermont's U.S. Senator Bernie Sanders has introduced a bill and is holding a hearing this week on the benefits other countries enjoy from a single-payer system that would benefit everyone except the profiteering middlemen who've rigged the current system.

Click here to ask your senators to cosponsor and support.
http://act.rootsaction.org/p/dia/act...ction_KEY=9206

"The United States is the only major nation in the industrialized world that does not guarantee healthcare as a right to its people," Sanders said. "It is time that we bring about a fundamental transformation of the American healthcare system. It is time for us to end private, for-profit participation in delivering basic coverage."

The bill, S. 1782, the American Health Security Act, would be a much more significant change to health coverage than those recently implemented. It would create a much simpler, less wasteful system of paying for healthcare, one that's in fact been tested in every other industrialized nation in the world, every one of which provides better access to healthcare for less money than we do in the United States.

The current system remains so broken that change must come. The question is how slowly and how piecemeal, and with how much unnecessary suffering along the way.

Join us in speaking up for universal coverage now!

Please forward this email widely to like-minded friends.

-- The RootsAction.org team

P.S. RootsAction is an independent online force endorsed by Jim Hightower, Barbara Ehrenreich, Cornel West, Daniel Ellsberg, Glenn Greenwald, Naomi Klein, Bill Fletcher Jr., Laura Flanders, former U.S. Senator James Abourezk, Coleen Rowley, Frances Fox Piven, and many others.
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Post#5729 at 03-10-2014 07:29 PM by JordanGoodspeed [at joined Mar 2013 #posts 3,587]
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As long as we're talking about single payer insurance, and not single provider of care, I'm all for it.







Post#5730 at 03-10-2014 08:42 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by JordanGoodspeed View Post
As long as we're talking about single payer insurance, and not single provider of care, I'm all for it.
I put healthcare in the same service basket as fire and police protection. They are social services and should be provided that way. Can we get there from here? Yes, but not in one fell swoop. We need a migration plan, because the only way a fully government based system can operate is for the medical professionals to enter their professions free of school debt. If not, the numbers are problematic at best.

We already do that for the VA, the military and a few other public health services. We can expand it to the rest of the profession. Of course, there will always be a small percentage who prefer to buy their care, so that should be available too. There will be no subsidies for private care, but the fee for service should take care of that.

This is the British model. The French model leaves practitioners in the private sphere, but hospitals less so. The Swiss have an all private system with public insurance. All are better than what we have now, and vastly better than the model we just left.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#5731 at 03-11-2014 04:47 PM by JordanGoodspeed [at joined Mar 2013 #posts 3,587]
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Dude, I've been in the military, am a veteran, and have lived in both Britain and France. I'm not saying this to seem special, just that I have used all of those systems.

The NHS and the VA suck. It's like getting healthcare from the DMV. Canada or some of the Continental European models are the way to go.







Post#5732 at 03-11-2014 09:31 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by JordanGoodspeed View Post
Dude, I've been in the military, am a veteran, and have lived in both Britain and France. I'm not saying this to seem special, just that I have used all of those systems.

The NHS and the VA suck. It's like getting healthcare from the DMV. Canada or some of the Continental European models are the way to go.
OK, the VA is not the best, but why would we expect it to be. For the practitioners, the money is elsewhere, at least for now. Then again, I've been through the VA system myself, and its fully suitable for some things. No, I don't want cardiovascular surgery there, but the primary care is actually pretty good. The one plus, there is no rushing you through the place to churn insurance billing. I've also used the NHS in the UK. Perfectly good care ... better than most I've had here. Again, I didn't have the need for an MRI or a liver resection. That's the extent of my personal experience. With all the Canadians I have in my family, and the amount of time I've spent there, I've never had any reason to use Canadian Medicare. I've also heard great things about the French, but, again, I know nothing first hand.

The one person who actually tried to compare national systems as many as possible was the journalist T. R. Reid. His The Healing of America: A Global Quest for Better, Cheaper, and Fairer Health Care is the best analysis of the various systems out there. Reid shopped his bad shoulder around the world, and wrote about the treatments, costs and how the systems operate. All seem to be a better option than ours.

None of this has any impact on my belief that healthcare has more in common with other public services than it does with for-profit business. It does need to be properly funded, though. That seems to be an issue with the NHS and the some of the Canadian provinces ... and the VA, for all of that.
Last edited by Marx & Lennon; 03-11-2014 at 09:39 PM.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#5733 at 03-11-2014 09:38 PM by JordanGoodspeed [at joined Mar 2013 #posts 3,587]
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Yeah, still not stoked on one-size-fits-all provided healthcare. If you want basic primary care, why go to a hospital at all? A nurse can do a lot, and way cheaper than any hospital.

There's no reason for a complete government takeover of the healthcare sector, it would be clear political overreach. Concentrate on attacking the insurance companies; nobody likes them.







Post#5734 at 03-12-2014 12:33 AM by Bad Dog [at joined Dec 2012 #posts 2,156]
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Just like the phone company. Jordan and I agree.

I was at RAF Bentwaters, where were you, Jordan?







Post#5735 at 03-12-2014 11:18 AM by JordanGoodspeed [at joined Mar 2013 #posts 3,587]
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Quote Originally Posted by Bad Dog View Post
Just like the phone company. Jordan and I agree.

I was at RAF Bentwaters, where were you, Jordan?
In Britain? Oxford, Oxfordshire and Cobham, Surrey. It wasn't through the military, my dad was working there at the time.







Post#5736 at 03-12-2014 08:31 PM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
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"In short, as has been argued before, private health insurance (which we still obviously have under the ACA) increases the cost of medical care, with nearly a third of that cost eaten up by private insurance non-health related revenue. To repeat the testimony cited above: 31 percent of US health insurance costs goes to insurers, while in Canada only 1.3 percent of medical costs are administrative."


International Experts Tell Senators That Single-Payer Improves National Health at Less Cost

Although the ACA is to be praised for providing many uninsured people an opportunity to sleep with some peace of mind, it is still a rickety system constructed to ensure the political support of medical insurance companies.US politicians, including President Obama, regularly boast about the US being the leader of the world in progress and a model for other nations.

Having the most expensive healthcare system, with the worst general outcome ranking for developed nations, looks like the US is a wobbly caboose not a powerful engine.
Medicare for all could solve that problem when it comes to cost-effectively fostering a healthy national population.

Afternote: The Daily Show, as usual, brought home the reality of the dysfunctional national US health care system in this recent segment. Click here.


http://www.truth-out.org/buzzflash/commentary/international-experts-tell-senators-that-single-payer-improves-national-health-at-less-cost
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#5737 at 03-12-2014 09:19 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by JordanGoodspeed View Post
Yeah, still not stoked on one-size-fits-all provided healthcare. If you want basic primary care, why go to a hospital at all? A nurse can do a lot, and way cheaper than any hospital.

There's no reason for a complete government takeover of the healthcare sector, it would be clear political overreach. Concentrate on attacking the insurance companies; nobody likes them.
Why assume the hospital is the only option? It certainly isn't in most places. It's the major medical facility, and should restrict itself to those duties. Most issues can be resolved in a clinic, a physicians office or some other lower level facility. In fact, pharmacies may be care centers soon. They already provide inoculations and guidance on pharmaceuticals. Why not a bit more than that? An NP or PA could be the highest level of care at the local Walgreen or the lowest level at the medical clinic. Does it matter?
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#5738 at 03-12-2014 09:27 PM by JordanGoodspeed [at joined Mar 2013 #posts 3,587]
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Quote Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon View Post
Why assume the hospital is the only option? It certainly isn't in most places. It's the major medical facility, and should restrict itself to those duties. Most issues can be resolved in a clinic, a physicians office or some other lower level facility. In fact, pharmacies may be care centers soon. They already provide inoculations and guidance on pharmaceuticals. Why not a bit more than that? An NP or PA could be the highest level of care at the local Walgreen or the lowest level at the medical clinic. Does it matter?
That's my point. No need to nationalize Walgreens (or Walmart for that matter). Things are already moving in the right direction.







Post#5739 at 03-13-2014 10:53 AM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
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Quote Originally Posted by JordanGoodspeed View Post
That's my point. No need to nationalize Walgreens (or Walmart for that matter). Things are already moving in the right direction.
I prefer not to have health care in the hands of a "Doc in the box." I had to see an NP for a certain problem I was having. She totally misdiagnosed and I ended up in the hospital. Walgreens and Walmart is just another form of corporate takeover of medical care.
Last edited by Deb C; 03-13-2014 at 03:41 PM.
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Post#5740 at 04-09-2014 06:17 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Biden was right!

This is a BIG F'in deal -



And on top of that, yesterday's RAND report has a 7.2 million upswing in employer based insurance since the ACA went into effect, much of that likely due to the mandate -

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/rand...oyer-insurance

- that's a shitload of people that now have health insurance. That's why both the recent Gallup polling and Urban Institute study is showing unprecedented drops in the uninsured. The numbers are still very much up in the air but there is no doubt they are huge! Kind of makes that horeshit about employers bumping people off insurance looking pretty asinine.

and speaking of asinine Rightees, this swamps out the story of insurance cancellation with RAND showing no more than 700K moved from insured to non-insured - a number that is now close to what happens every year with or without the ACA.

And its not that 1, 2, 3 or 4 Krotch Brothers or Faux News sponsored 'horror stories' has been discredited, it is EVERY Krotch Brothers and Faux News horor story has been discredited. Keep that in mind the next time you read about someone's personal horror story when they don't bother to give any specifics to judge its validity - at best, they're living in a state that refused to operate an exchange that would have resulted in some competition among the insurers - the same ideologically blinded states too stupid and mean-spirited to take the feds Medicaid money to help their own poor.

More importantly, as noted here -

This is critical to understanding the purpose of health care reform. From the beginning the goal of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA) was not simply to insure the uninsured, but to protect the under-insured by making certain that everyone has comprehensive coverage. Whether a carrier is peddling policies in a state marketplace or off-exchange all plans now must comply with the ACA’s rules by:



covering the ten essential benefits


offering free preventive care, and


capping how much a patient can be asked to pay out-of-pocket.


Additionally, carriers can no longer discriminate against customers suffering from pre-existing conditions by charging them exorbitant premiums and they cannot set a limit on how much the insurer will pay out over the course of a year or a lifetime.

The second goal of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act is to make sure that the price of such high quality insurance is not beyond reach. Government subsidies help low-income and median-income families, but the only way to make sure that everyone else can afford policies meeting the ACA’s high standards is by asking all of us to share in the cost.

This is why the ACA mandates that everyone purchase insurance. When more people pay into the risk pool, the costs decline for everyone. It is only then that universal coverage becomes possible
It's working, baby, it's working. And that's the BIG f'in deal. The govt can get incredible things done for all of us. Just imagine if the t-baggers weren't still fighting this every step of the way - a minimum of 4 million people more would be on Medicaid and not dying in the streets due to lack of health coverage.

This sets the stage for the public option and eventually single payer like nothing else has every done since Medicare came along back in the 60s!

Now, here's where the usual suspects chime in about rates are going to shoot up (we'll see, but keep clicking those heels together!)) or unseemly corporate profits (conveniently forgetting the Medical Lost Limits or never bothering to try to understand them in the first place) but hell, who cares? I don't. I'm just passing by to gloat. I return you to your usual nay saying and hand wringing.

Last edited by playwrite; 04-09-2014 at 06:24 PM.
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Post#5741 at 04-10-2014 03:38 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Thanks for the info, playdude!
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Keep the spirit alive,

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Post#5742 at 04-11-2014 09:37 PM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
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A pro-single payer doctor’s concerns about Obamacare


Believe me, the right's approach would be much worse. But the underinsured are getting a worse deal than you think


As a single-payer advocate who is also a doctor, I was concerned after the Affordable Care Act was passed that it didn’t do enough to combat rising underinsurance. A recent study by the Commonwealth Fund, which used new data to demonstrate that in 2012 some 31.7 million Americans were underinsured (i.e. insured, but still with heavy additional out-of-pocket health care expenses), argued that the burden of underinsurance will likely lessen as the ACA fully unfolds. But is there really reason for such optimism?

This is a complicated issue with many moving parts, so one way to tackle it (before immersing ourselves in the exhilarating policy literature) is to pose a simpler question: if your family is insured, and someone gets seriously sick, can you not worry about going broke?

After it passed, my concerns about underinsurance re: the ACA revolved around codifying cost sharing measures, like large deductibles and copays, into law. But the out-of-pocket maximums that the law created were admittedly better than nothing, and – as important – were based on income. According to the text of the law, once your family income goes below 400% of the federal poverty level (which for those enrolling now would be less than $94,200 for a family of four) the maximum out-of-pocket limit (now $12,700) would be progressively reduced by either one-third, one-half, or two-thirds, giving (roughly) the following figures for 2014:


I’m certainly not advocating going backwards, and the conservative “solution” would clearly only makes things much worse. As the Commonwealth Fund study emphasized, the expansion of Medicaid will, in particular, provide crucial assistance for millions. And the pre-ACA individual insurance market was by all accounts ugly, with no guarantee that you could even buy into it. “My deductible is nearly $3,000, which is ridiculously high, in my opinion,” one woman remarked to The New York Times. “But as someone with pre-existing conditions, I’m grateful to be able to buy insurance at all.”

It’s clearly good news that she’s now covered. But should such an individual have to be grateful to buy insurance that makes her spend thousands every time she needs to use it, just for the crime of being sick?
http://www.pnhp.org/news/2014/april/...bout-obamacare
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#5743 at 04-12-2014 07:56 AM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Instructive Comparison

US median household income is $51K

From the chart -




- median out of pocket under ACA = $6350


Cost Comparison of approaches:

Condition....................Uninsured............ .............ACA....................Debs.......... ........GOP

HIV...............................$28,000......... ...............$6,350................1 MP*..................GSaD**

Cancer..........................$55,000........... .............$6,350................1 MP*..................GSaD**

Transplant.....................$57,000............ ............$6,350................1 MP*..................GSaD**

Stroke...........................$67,000.......... ..............$6,350................1 MP*..................GSaD**

Hemephilia.....................$69,000............ ............$6,350................1 MP*..................GSaD**

Heart Attack..................$80,000................... .....$6,350................1 MP*..................GSaD**

Cor. Artery Dis...............$83,000................... ....$6,350................1 MP*..................GSaD**

Neonatal......................$112,000............ ............$6,350................1 MP*..................GSaD**

EndStage Renal.............$193,000........................ $6,350................1 MP*..................GSaD**

Respir. Failure...............$340,000.................... ....$6,350................1 MP*..................GSaD**

__________
* MP = Magic Pony
** GSaD = Get Sick and Die


Now obviously in the practical world anyone with 1/2 a brain will choose Deb's approach.

One just needs to make sure they have a couple of magic ponies in their closet, best if one acquires the ponies prior to getting sick or having an accident.

Otherwise, you'll find that Debs=GOP.

Proving once again if you go far enough out to the Left you get in bed with the Right.

'Funny' how that works.
Last edited by playwrite; 04-12-2014 at 07:59 AM.
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Post#5744 at 04-12-2014 07:36 PM by Bad Dog [at joined Dec 2012 #posts 2,156]
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Just got my first premium bill. Ironically, the providers' site is down for the weekend. Not healthcare.gov, this time. I think lots of people are trying to make first payments.







Post#5745 at 05-15-2014 10:22 AM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Boo-hoo, another sad for the deadenders

It looks like the GOP and certain obamacare-hating deadenders on this forum will have another sad day -

Primary care system handling Obamacare surge ... so far

The headlines were ominous: Good luck finding a doctor under Obamacare. Not enough doctors for newly insured. Obamacare, doctor shortage could crash health system.

Despite these dire predictions, the nation's primary care system is handling the increased number of insured patients without major problems so far, according to interviews with community health centers, large physician practices and insurers nationwide.

Five months into the biggest expansion of health coverage in 50 years — with about 13 million people enrolled in private insurance and Medicaid under the Affordable Care Act — there are few reports of patients facing major delays getting care, say officials from more than two-dozen health centers and multigroup practices, as well as insurers and physician groups in nine big states.
boo-hoo.

Chin up, you all still have IRS! Benghazi! Mufasa! Mufasa!
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#5746 at 05-15-2014 08:49 PM by Ragnarök_62 [at Oklahoma joined Nov 2006 #posts 5,511]
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Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
It looks like the GOP and certain obamacare-hating deadenders on this forum will have another sad day -



boo-hoo.

Chin up, you all still have IRS! Benghazi! Mufasa! Mufasa!

I see you're back. Guess what? Mr. spammer, utinforboloubo - Yesterday 04:34 AM View Conversation Report, left 171 Visitor Messages for you!

Quote Originally Posted by spammer
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So, playwrite, what the hell are prada handbags? Do these make some sort of fashion statement in Manhatten?
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Post#5747 at 05-16-2014 11:40 AM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62 View Post
I see you're back. Guess what? Mr. spammer, utinforboloubo - Yesterday 04:34 AM View Conversation Report, left 171 Visitor Messages for you!



So, playwrite, what the hell are prada handbags? Do these make some sort of fashion statement in Manhatten?
You've obviously haven't had the great fortune of being forced by certain love ones of the female variety to watch certain TV shows -

http://www.tv.com/shows/sex-and-the-city/

or certain types of movies -

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0458352/

What's your secret? An invisibility cloak? Bat cave?
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#5748 at 05-16-2014 08:01 PM by Bad Dog [at joined Dec 2012 #posts 2,156]
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Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
You've obviously haven't had the great fortune of being forced by certain love ones of the female variety to watch certain TV shows -

http://www.tv.com/shows/sex-and-the-city/

or certain types of movies -

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0458352/

What's your secret? An invisibility cloak? Bat cave?
Oklahoma, outside of TV range.







Post#5749 at 05-16-2014 11:25 PM by Ragnarök_62 [at Oklahoma joined Nov 2006 #posts 5,511]
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05-16-2014, 11:25 PM #5749
Join Date
Nov 2006
Location
Oklahoma
Posts
5,511

Quote Originally Posted by Bad Dog View Post
Oklahoma, outside of TV range.
Yup. But WINS AM , like KSTP "skips" right on in and sounds local. My remote locale allows this kind of thing for AM signals.

Bad dog is correct of course, TV signals are FM and no dice there on that spectrum, unless you want random "snow" which comes from Alpha Centauri.

Btw, you're the proud owner of 172 messages. Latest one is Tiffany's. Now I know that's some upscale shit.
MBTI step II type : Expressive INTP

There's an annual contest at Bond University, Australia, calling for the most appropriate definition of a contemporary term:
The winning student wrote:

"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a piece of shit by the clean end."







Post#5750 at 05-17-2014 11:28 AM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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05-17-2014, 11:28 AM #5750
Join Date
May 2005
Location
"Michigrim"
Posts
15,014

Quote Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62 View Post
Yup. But WINS AM , like KSTP "skips" right on in and sounds local. My remote locale allows this kind of thing for AM signals.
Where I live I can reliably get AM signals from Denver, Dallas, New Orleans, Atlanta, Boston, and Winnipeg. Reception is a little shakier from Albuquerque, Houston, or San Antonio; I can't get anything from the West Coast or the Maritime Provinces. Border blasters from Ciudad Juarez and Nuevo Laredo follow a different set of rules.

Bad dog is correct of course, TV signals are FM and no dice there on that spectrum, unless you want random "snow" which comes from Alpha Centauri.
Alpha Centauri? Not unless you are south of about 29N (Galveston, Texas; Ocala, Florida). If it is from a star, then the closest stars that might have such an effect would be Altair, Procyon, or Sirius. Much more significant is the planet Jupiter; Jupiter's magnetic field is so strong that the Earth often travels within it.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
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