Originally Posted by Deb C

So I will keep working to bring single payer to our country. And yes, your idea of state to state is a good idea.

Good ideas both. We can all do our part. It's a long term task. I am glad Obama moved the ball forward, and it needs to be moved further down field.

It's just a shame that so many will die or go without care in the mean time. This in the supposedly greatest country in the world.

Is it? Was it ever?

It is so hard for those of us who have the money to give to the gangsters in the insurance and pharmaceutical industry, paying them a high price for our protection, to understand the plight of those who don't have the means to pay.

A country can be judged by how it cares for its citizens.

Yes.

"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a

Has it ever been?

Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62

All of them were properly dispensed, I assure you.

In fact I corrected all your errors, but you didn't take back your dodos.

1. He really doesn't write new stuff, but rather points out what he considers errors you make when discussing chemistry.

His errors are staggering, because they are his dogma and narrowness of mind, his response to most points with only insults, etc.

Originally Posted by JDG 66

-Playwrite, still defending the indefensible, I see. He's trumpeting the fact that people bought health insurance whether they needed it or not because they face tax penalties if they don't.

Back in 1940, millions of men registered for the draft. Millions more would register over the next few decades. That draft must have been a real hit with the public.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epo...plan-1130.html

...certainly more popular than Obamacare.

http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Articl...ll-Cut-Deficit

One of the Obama administration's major selling points in passing the Affordable Care Act in 2010 was a Congressional Budget Office forecast that the controversial legislation would reduce the deficit by more than $120 billion over the coming decade.The CBO has consistently projected that President Obama's overhaul will reduce the deficit, and the agency estimated that the Republicans’ 2011 effort to repeal the legislation would increase deficits by $210 billion from 2010 to 2021...

In April, the agency quietly signaled that it can no longer make that projection...

Now it’s unclear whether the law is still on track to reduce the deficit or end up adding many billions of dollars more to the current $17 trillion national debt. CBO and JCT currently estimate that the insurance coverage provisions alone of the ACA will have a net cost of just under $1.1 trillion over the 2012–2021 period...

“The ACA’s financing provisions were assumed to be effective so as to get a favorable score out of CBO upon enactment,” he said. “But no one is keeping track of whether they’re being enforced. . . .

I'm SHOCKED.

This perspective is only possible from a person like yourself that is completely coddled in their medical care coverage by the federal govt. and has no clue what it is like to go without health insurance.

You have a long history of complaining about people getting what you already got. It's pathetic.

Originally Posted by playwrite

This perspective is only possible from a person like yourself that is completely coddled in their medical care coverage by the federal govt. and has no clue what it is like to go without health insurance...

-Again, how many times do I have to explain that a Retired reservist doesn't get medical or dental until age 60? He never pays attention.

It is amusing seeing him trying tap dance around the Obamacare implosion, though!

Originally Posted by Deb C

The sad reality is that way too many people live pay check to pay check in this country. Given the facts that the ACA's co-pays and out of pocket expenses are considerably high with the lower rungs of the program, medical bankruptcies will continue to be high. Not to mention that needed health care will be put on the back burner by many who have limited funds.

Medical Debt: A Curable Affliction Health Reform Won’t Fix


By David U. Himmelstein, M.D., and Steffie Woolhandler, M.D., M.P.H.
Communities & Banking, Summer 2013


Millions of Americans are deep in medical debt. Unfortunately, the Affordable Care Act (ACA) will throw a lifeline to very few. According to the Congressional Budget Office, even after health reform is fully implemented in 2014, 30 million to 36 million people will remain uninsured. And tens of millions who do have insurance will have coverage that is too limited to ensure financial protection against an expensive illness. Many families will remain just one serious illness away from bankruptcy.

http://www.pnhp.org/news/2013/june/m...%E2%80%99t-fix

You remain one of the few, even in the Far Left echo chamber, that still believes in this horseshit. It would be lonely except you don't have the intellectual heft to comprehend how so alone you have become.

Under the ACA, the max. OPP is $6350. No one is going to go bankrupt over that.

With govt subsidies up to 400% of the FPL, the people eligible for the ACA that decided not to sign up have to take responsibility for their own stupidity.

Of the people not otherwise covered by some sort of insurance (e.g. employer, Medicare/Medicaid), the ones not eligible to sign-up for the ACA are illegal immigrants and the religiously exempt. I have no problem with extending coverage to them and I'm sure Obama wouldn't either. That's not going to happen because of a-holes on the Right. The only people that say otherwise are lying hypocrites like yourself that already have insurance and don't give a rat's ass about anybody else getting what they already have if it means that gets in the way of their hateful mindless bashing of Obama.

Originally Posted by JDG 66

-Again, how many times do I have to explain that a Retired reservist doesn't get medical or dental until age 60? He never pays attention.

It is amusing seeing him trying tap dance around the Obamacare implosion, though!

Implosion?

Tens of millions would now disagree with you -



Maybe you haven't notice that events/facts have now overrun you morons' scare stories?

And now you've decided that you were a reservist?

Originally Posted by playwrite

Implosion?

Tens of millions would now disagree with you...

-Wow. PW touts the fact that millions of people signed up for policies to avoid a tax penalty. So according to him, the number of people registering for the draft is an excellent indicator for how popular the draft is!

Nancy Pelosi said that we have to pass the bill to find out what's in it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hV-05TLiiLU

Well, now that people have had a chance to see what Obamacare is, what do they think?

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epo...plan-1130.html

Implosion.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Good ideas both. We can all do our part. It's a long term task. I am glad Obama moved the ball forward, and it needs to be moved further down field.

Is it? Was it ever?


Yes.


Has it ever been?

I wonder how other industrialized countries manage to take care of their citizen's health care and educational needs, while the USA is so very far behind.

Originally Posted by JDG 66

-Wow. PW touts the fact that millions of people signed up for policies to avoid a tax penalty. So according to him, the number of people registering for the draft is an excellent indicator for how popular the draft is!

Nancy Pelosi said that we have to pass the bill to find out what's in it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hV-05TLiiLU

Well, now that people have had a chance to see what Obamacare is, what do they think?

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epo...plan-1130.html

Implosion.

That's about the dumbest strawman I've ever seen.

No one's buying this crap any more, Jimmie.

Most signed up because it was free, subsidized and/or they are not stupid enough to walk around without insurance. The few that might have done it to avoid less that a $100 tax penalty, I don't care. You may be okay with paying for freeloaders; I'm not.

As for your same old polling bullshit, no one buys that any more either. Everyone knows about a 1/3 of those not favoring Obamacare feel that way because it doesn't go far enough - they want either single payer or a public option - many, like Debs, want a magic pony thrown in as well. With that, there's a clear majority of people that want exactly what you a-holes don't want them to have. Regardless, for you to continue with this lying just continues to show the lengths you a-holes are willing to go to shit on other people less fortunate than yourselves.

Originally Posted by Deb C

I wonder how other industrialized countries manage to take care of their citizen's health care and educational needs, while the USA is so very far behind.

They probable start by realizing that their Prez or PM isn't a king that just waves his magic wand and everyone gets a magic pony. They work hard for what they got and it evolves through the political trenches. If they were here, they'd be spending their time trying to get the Medicaid expansion in all the states, rather than waste their time typing mindless lying Obama-bashing posts on an Internet forum.
Grow up.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epo...plan-1130.html

Originally Posted by playwrite

... Most signed up because it was free, subsidized and/or they are not stupid enough to walk around without insurance. The few that might have done it to avoid less that a $100 tax penalty, I don't care. You may be okay with paying for freeloaders; I'm not....

-Oh hoh! Yes, they all want it!

And the ones who are getting free or subsidized are the freeloaders who will make Obamacare unsustainable. I hope we never bail out the insurance companies that lobbied for it.

Originally Posted by playwrite

... As for your same old polling bullshit, no one buys that any more either...

-Oh, we'll see in November.

I can hardly wait to see Playwrite's reaction!

Originally Posted by JDG 66

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epo...plan-1130.html



-Oh hoh! Yes, they all want it!

And the ones who are getting free or subsidized are the freeloaders who will make Obamacare unsustainable. I hope we never bail out the insurance companies that lobbied for it.

You obviously remain completely ignorant of how our monetary system actually works.

I actually like that.

Originally Posted by JDG 66

-Oh, we'll see in November.

I can hardly wait to see Playwrite's reaction!

Oh, there will be setbacks, but the handwriting is on the wall that you all are headed to the dustbin. If it wasn't for the gerrymandering, the voter suppression, and a state with less population than most cities getting two senators, you all would already be just a few paragraphs in the history books.

On the morning of Nov. 5, the discussion turns instantly to Nov 2016 and the last thing most people will care about or need to care about is deadenders in states that are of issue in the 2014 midterms. Even with the Senate, the GOP will still have to be veto proof and that simple is not in the numbers - everything will be locked down and the ACA and anything else Obama will be locked in. The only thing you morons are going to be able to move is your faux scandals (I would love you all trying impeachment) and all that will do is just further assure that 2016 election nail in your political coffins.

Originally Posted by playwrite

... If it wasn't for the gerrymandering...

-Works both ways. Nate Silver studied it, and determined that it works both ways, depending on the year.

Originally Posted by playwrite

... the voter suppression...

-Non existent voter suppression.

Voter fraud has been a Donkey party standby for, well, centuries.

Originally Posted by playwrite

... and a state with less population than most cities getting two senators...

1) Hawaii? Vermont? Rhode Island? DC, which isn't even a state but gets electoral votes?

2) Yes. That damn US Constitution.

Originally Posted by JDG 66

-Works both ways. Nate Silver studied it (gerrymandering), and determined that it works both ways, depending on the year.

-Non existent voter suppression.

Voter fraud has been a Donkey party standby for, well, centuries...

Gerrymandering has been raised to a science in the post-2010 era ... and almost all of it was by the GOP. There has not been as much overt gerrymandering as there has since this past census in well over a century. So I guess you can point to the voting in the 19th century, when real manipulation was practiced by both parties ... not that any of this applies today.

All the examples of voter fraud I've seen show, at most, tens of votes - and those examples were a stretch. Suppression, on the other hand, disenfranchises hundreds to tens of thousands. That's the equivalent of fighting a cold with chemotherapy.

Originally Posted by JDG 66

- Voter fraud ..

about as real as the Yeti -

http://www.brennancenter.org/sites/d...er%20Fraud.pdf

Originally Posted by JDG 66

1) Hawaii? Vermont? Rhode Island? DC, which isn't even a state but gets electoral votes?

I think you need to educate yourself on state populations.

Originally Posted by JDG 66

2) Yes. That damn US Constitution.

If the Founding Fathers knew what you all were going to do with it, they would have torn in up and begged King George to take them back into the fold.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ophelia_Ford

John Ford... resigned in 2005 after he was indicted in Operation Tennessee Waltz.

Ophelia Ford ran for her brother's state senate seat and defeated Henri Brooks by 20 votes in the special Democratic primary.

She went on to defeat Republican candidate Terry Roland by 13 votes in the special general election.

Both elections fell under allegations of improprieties. Names of deceased persons and felons were found on the rolls, and dozens of additional votes were counted from voters living outside the district. Further investigation of the election revealed that one of the election officials purportedly certifying the name of many of the voters in question was actually in New York City the day of the election and that her place was taken, without authorization, by a relative.

The Tennessee Senate initially voted along party lines to void the election. Ophelia Ford sued the State Senate and obtained an injunction from a federal court which upheld the election until the senate met provisions under the Voting Rights Act. The State Senate, having authorization to so act from the court’s order, voted to void the election by a margin of 26-6, on April 19, 2006...

The Tennessee Bureau of Investigation investigated aspects of the election, and District Attorney Bill Gibbons obtained 37 indictments, 35 of which are felonies, against three Shelby County poll workers for alleged election fraud. Ford herself was not implicated...

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

... All the examples of voter fraud I've seen show, at most, tens of votes...

-What you KNOW about is enough to swing elections, which is sort of the point, right?

Uncounted voter fraud is one of those things that is hard to measure by definition, don't you think?

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

... and those examples were a stretch. Suppression, on the other hand, disenfranchises hundreds to tens of thousands...

-Which would be relevant if true, but since you provide no evidence of "voter suppression," or even attempts at voter suppression, it is irrelevant.

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

... All the examples of KNOWN voter fraud I've seen show, at most, tens of votes - and those examples were a stretch. Suppression, on the other hand, disenfranchises hundreds to tens of thousands. That's the equivalent of fighting a cold with chemotherapy.

There. I fixed it for you.

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

Gerrymandering has been raised to a science in the post-2010 era ... and almost all of it was by the GOP. There has not been as much overt gerrymandering as there has since this past census in well over a century. So I guess you can point to the voting in the 19th century, when real manipulation was practiced by both parties ... not that any of this applies today...

-Other than the fact that Elephants currently win the state elections which determine districting, do you have any evidence that Elephants gerrymander more than Donkeys?

Are Donkeys that bad at math? Hmmm... maybe you have a point!

Originally Posted by JDG 66

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ophelia_Ford

John Ford... resigned in 2005 after he was indicted in Operation Tennessee Waltz.

Ophelia Ford ran for her brother's state senate seat and defeated Henri Brooks by 20 votes in the special Democratic primary.

She went on to defeat Republican candidate Terry Roland by 13 votes in the special general election.

Both elections fell under allegations of improprieties. Names of deceased persons and felons were found on the rolls, and dozens of additional votes were counted from voters living outside the district. Further investigation of the election revealed that one of the election officials purportedly certifying the name of many of the voters in question was actually in New York City the day of the election and that her place was taken, without authorization, by a relative.

The Tennessee Senate initially voted along party lines to void the election. Ophelia Ford sued the State Senate and obtained an injunction from a federal court which upheld the election until the senate met provisions under the Voting Rights Act. The State Senate, having authorization to so act from the court’s order, voted to void the election by a margin of 26-6, on April 19, 2006...

The Tennessee Bureau of Investigation investigated aspects of the election, and District Attorney Bill Gibbons obtained 37 indictments, 35 of which are felonies, against three Shelby County poll workers for alleged election fraud. Ford herself was not implicated...

-What you KNOW about is enough to swing elections, which is sort of the point, right?

Uncounted voter fraud is one of those things that is hard to measure by definition, don't you think?

-Which would be relevant if true, but since you provide no evidence of "voter suppression," or even attempts at voter suppression, it is irrelevant.

There. I fixed it for you.

Fraud has been alleged for years, and evey time a serious attempt is made to find it, it's just not there. Here's a bit on the most current attempts.

And in case you think I missed it, indictments are not convictions. After 8 years, I assume the cases are closed. I could make a much larger argument for the 2000 Presidential election in Florida.

Originally Posted by JDG 66 ...

-Other than the fact that Elephants currently win the state elections which determine districting, do you have any evidence that Elephants gerrymander more than Donkeys?

Are Donkeys that bad at math? Hmmm... maybe you have a point!

The use of extremely sophisticated statisitical techniques are just now being deployed. Understand as well, the two sides play the game differently. Would you prefer to create as many marginal seats for yourself as posssible, or somewhat fewer but more reliable ones?

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

Fraud has been alleged for years, and evey time a serious attempt is made to find it, it's just not there. Here's a bit on the most current attempts...

-Boring. Read above.

And where's this voter suppression you're so worried about?

Originally Posted by JDG 66

-Boring.

That's the heart of it - facts that don't fit your witless ideology are just boring to you.

Originally Posted by JDG 66

-Boring. Read above.

And where's this voter suppression you're so worried about?

When turn-out is unusually low, and the district is marginally Democratic, a GOP victory will be the sign - like 2000 in Florida, 2004 in Oho and, soon, 2014 in several places, barring court interference.

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

... When turn-out is unusually low, and the district is marginally Democratic, a GOP victory will be the sign - like 2000 in Florida, 2004 in Oho and, soon, 2014 in several places, barring court interference...

-HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!

You forget so quickly!

The Donkey story for the 2000 election used to be that the butterfly ballot was too complicated for Gore voters, i.e., Gore voters were too stupid to know how to use a butterfly ballot. Who was it that mandated the butterfly ballot in those counties? Oh. That's right. The DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

In Ohio, the Elephant Party was the party that wanted to keep a closer eye on voting, not the Donkey Party.

Sheesh.

IOW, there is no voter suppression, but, even though it is hard to catch, there is always evidence of voter fraud, which leans heavily to the Donkey Party.

I know this "voter suppression" myth appeals to progressives for some reason, but who else?

The chickens, coming home to roost:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/0...n_4833041.html

...Part-time public-sector workers like substitute teachers, prison guards, and police dispatchers risk having their hours cut in an effort by state and local governments to dodge the Affordable Care Act's "employer mandate" to give such workers health benefits, the New York Times reports...

...Under President Obama's signature health-care reform law, employers are required to provide insurance for part-time employees working more than 30 hours per week. Many government employers say they simply can’t afford it, according to the NYT, and plan to limit worker hours to 29 per week instead...


Well, DUH.

From a union:

http://www.unitehere.org/detail.php?ID=3775

The promise of ObamaCare was the right one and the hope for extending healthcare coverage to the un- and under-insured a step in the right direction. Yet the unintended consequences will hit the average, hard-working American where it hurts: in the wallet...

Ah!

What to say about these degenerates who helped push through Obamacare?



Too bad decent Americans are stuck with Obamacare, too.

Originally Posted by JDG 66

-HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!

You forget so quickly!

This will be good, I'm sure.

Originally Posted by JDG 66 ...

The Donkey story for the 2000 election used to be that the butterfly ballot was too complicated for Gore voters, i.e., Gore voters were too stupid to know how to use a butterfly ballot. Who was it that mandated the butterfly ballot in those counties? Oh. That's right. The DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

The only story in that election was the way it ended - with the SCOTUS calling the election for Bush while the votes were still being counted. Nothing else matters ... unless you want to consider the careful and time-consuming manual recount by the press. Gore won, not that it mattered.

Originally Posted by JDG 66 ...

In Ohio, the Elephant Party was the party that wanted to keep a closer eye on voting, not the Donkey Party.

Sheesh.

Yes, they were so careful that the lines in urban (but not suburban or rural) precincts stretched out for hours. Of course, asking someone to wait in line for 4 hours to vote isn't suppression. No, of course not. It's, "... keep(ing) a closer eye on voting ..."

Originally Posted by JDG 66 ...

IOW, there is no voter suppression, but, even though it is hard to catch, there is always evidence of voter fraud, which leans heavily to the Donkey Party.

I know this "voter suppression" myth appeals to progressives for some reason, but who else?

Note: vote fraud, when it does occur, is nearly impossible for the party not in charge of the polls. So the GOP efforts to stop Democratic fraud is a joke. If there is any in a GOP-run district, they are the ones doing it. Vote fraud in a Democratic district is outside their purvue. So this is simple voter suppression (see my previous comment).

Originally Posted by JDG 66

The chickens, coming home to roost:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/0...n_4833041.html

...Part-time public-sector workers like substitute teachers, prison guards, and police dispatchers risk having their hours cut in an effort by state and local governments to dodge the Affordable Care Act's "employer mandate" to give such workers health benefits, the New York Times reports...

...Under President Obama's signature health-care reform law, employers are required to provide insurance for part-time employees working more than 30 hours per week. Many government employers say they simply can’t afford it, according to the NYT, and plan to limit worker hours to 29 per week instead...


Well, DUH.

From a union:

http://www.unitehere.org/detail.php?ID=3775

The promise of ObamaCare was the right one and the hope for extending healthcare coverage to the un- and under-insured a step in the right direction. Yet the unintended consequences will hit the average, hard-working American where it hurts: in the wallet...

Ah!

What to say about these degenerates who helped push through Obamacare?

Too bad decent Americans are stuck with Obamacare, too.

Yes, the GOP and today's profits-only private enterprise will go to any length to not insure workers. Here in Virginia, they had to bribe a Democratic member of the State Senate to retire, so they could block Medicaid expansion. It's GOP - and only GOP - generosity at its finest.

I'm no fan of the ACA, but it beats the hell out of the status quo ante.

Originally Posted by JDG 66

The chickens, coming home to roost:

scaremongering, scaremonger, scaremongering, blah, blah, blah...

So now you all are turning to the employer-provided provisions of Obamacare, hey?

It's pretty obvious why - the non-employer part is doing better than anyone's expectations and you guys are looking more and more like the moronic scaremongers that you are to more and more people, many within your own base!

Gee, over a million more sign-ups than the original GAO 7M estimate. Over 90% making their payment and still going up. Most of the people signing up are those that didn't have insurance before and the average monthly premium for 87% getting subsidies is $81 - less than most people cable or cell phone bills. The cost of the insurance part of the ACA keeps dropping and the overall program is still a major net positive on the federal balance sheet. A good mix of healthy and young people that's bringing in more insurers into the exchanges for the 2015 open season - a very good sign that the cost curve on annual premium rate increases is going to have some serious downward bending. One example is -

Something unprecedented may be unfolding in Florida's individual health-insurance market: None of the nine companies that have filed their 2015 rate requests so far wants an increase.
In fact, two of the companies—Molina Healthcare of Florida and Sunshine Health—actually requested a price cut.

"The fact is, an overall pattern of insurers not seeking rate increases—and even seeking rate decreases—is unheard of," said Greg Mellowe, policy director for the consumer advocacy group Florida CHAIN.

So again, its pretty easy why you now want to focus on what is to come rather than what has actually occurred, and start up the scaremongering again. It's becoming pretty clear to most thinking people that you all are going to wind up with egg on your face again; only you can't see it - you might want to try to wipe some of that egg off!

But knowing your history, it won't matter. I'm pretty sure there's a post in your future where you will circle all the way back and start telling us the death panels are just around the corner!

Too funny!