Originally Posted by nihilist moron

....
That's really all you've got, playdude?

Playwrite, gotta hand it to you. You have a knack for getting Xer's to call you "playdude".

Though I wonder if NM is a Dr. The Rani sock puppet...

Originally Posted by playwrite

Second, you're mum on what YOU are paying. Why do you care what the govt is subsidizing? Weird.

I'm sorry, I don't live in the 3T any more. The biggest problem with healthcare is that the vast majority of its consumers do NOT see how much money is being spent on their behalf. If they did, they'd be OUTRAGED at the waste and fraud and deaths that have been caused because of it.

Every year, around this time, I write the biggest check I've ever written in my life. Now generally, I like to shop around and get a good deal, but this check to the IRS is one that I have very little say in and it returns some very questionable results.

Consistently, the research shows that an individual's willingness to pay taxes is directly proportionate to their perceived value of public spending. Those who are happy with how their governments invest in their societies are ready to pay even more, no matter what their absolute tax rate already is.

So when I see that this is the best thing our government can come up with, I'm not feeling very enthusiastic when I write that check.

When the DNC understands that, they'll understand why conservative Democrats can't win elections or keep their seats once they're "outed" as corrupt "moderates."

Anyway, my personal contribution is close to $5,000 in annual premiums - up from $2,000 back when I had the same provider and the same plan (without pediatric dental benefits). The government is kicking in another $2,000 on my behalf (and out of the tax check I'm writing). What does that get me? A potential liability of close to $12,000 for something fairly routine, like a pregnancy! Just imagine how quickly I'd be bankrupt trying to come up with $400 a month in premiums while missing work due to an actual illness or accident.

As far as the MLR are concerned, I have no faith in the reported numbers or publicly released audits. This is largely based on conversations with a friend who is an accountant at a government-contracted insurer, as well as the recent explosion of job openings in the insurance field. It's free range serfdom man, no matter where you go or what you do, you're working for unprecedented profits of the banks and insurance firms. There is no escape, no way to opt out or find your own job. They will get their cut and they always need more.

Originally Posted by JohnMc82

Consistently, the research shows that an individual's willingness to pay taxes is directly proportionate to their perceived value of public spending. Those who are happy with how their governments invest in their societies are ready to pay even more, no matter what their absolute tax rate already is.
.

This reminded me of another topic-the bail out of Greece. Awhile back, an article in the Economist commented that German tax payers view the Greeks as profligate.

Originally Posted by nihilist moron

It's from a pdf file so I can't include a link:

"You must pay all the costs up to the deductible amount before this plan begins to pay for covered services you use."

P.S. Here's a link but not directly from the provider:
https://www.healthsherpa.com/health-...a-eligible-hmo

H-m-m-m. An HSA is not typically part of a medical insurance plan, unless you already have an HSA. After all, that's the point. It's catastrophic coverage with your tax deferred savings paying the rest. It's great for the terminally healthy ... but only ones with money.

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

H-m-m-m. An HSA is not typically part of a medical insurance plan, unless you already have an HSA. After all, that's the point. It's catastrophic coverage with your tax deferred savings paying the rest. It's great for the terminally healthy ... but only ones with money.

Hey don't complain to me about it.
That's the best plan we found on the exchange after plugging in her info.
(She is terminally healthy with no money.)

Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62

Playwrite, gotta hand it to you. You have a knack for getting Xer's to call you "playdude".

Though I wonder if NM is a Dr. The Rani sock puppet...

You had doubts?

Originally Posted by JohnMc82

I'm sorry, I don't live in the 3T any more. The biggest problem with healthcare is that the vast majority of its consumers do NOT see how much money is being spent on their behalf. If they did, they'd be OUTRAGED at the waste and fraud and deaths that have been caused because of it.

Every year, around this time, I write the biggest check I've ever written in my life. Now generally, I like to shop around and get a good deal, but this check to the IRS is one that I have very little say in and it returns some very questionable results.

Consistently, the research shows that an individual's willingness to pay taxes is directly proportionate to their perceived value of public spending. Those who are happy with how their governments invest in their societies are ready to pay even more, no matter what their absolute tax rate already is.

So when I see that this is the best thing our government can come up with, I'm not feeling very enthusiastic when I write that check.

When the DNC understands that, they'll understand why conservative Democrats can't win elections or keep their seats once they're "outed" as corrupt "moderates."

Anyway, my personal contribution is close to $5,000 in annual premiums - up from $2,000 back when I had the same provider and the same plan (without pediatric dental benefits). The government is kicking in another $2,000 on my behalf (and out of the tax check I'm writing). What does that get me? A potential liability of close to $12,000 for something fairly routine, like a pregnancy! Just imagine how quickly I'd be bankrupt trying to come up with $400 a month in premiums while missing work due to an actual illness or accident.

As far as the MLR are concerned, I have no faith in the reported numbers or publicly released audits. This is largely based on conversations with a friend who is an accountant at a government-contracted insurer, as well as the recent explosion of job openings in the insurance field. It's free range serfdom man, no matter where you go or what you do, you're working for unprecedented profits of the banks and insurance firms. There is no escape, no way to opt out or find your own job. They will get their cut and they always need more.

Outrage - so you're straddling both the Right's horror stories and the Left's pipe dreams. See my original response regarding both particularly in regard to everything else being but masturbation.

contribution - it went from $2K to $3K ($5K minus $2K govt subsidy) that's a $1K increase or $83 more per month. I'll take your word that the prior plan had as much going for it as the first (a little hard to believe given all the requirements of the new plans like preventative medical) but the fact of the matter is under the ACA you will NEVER be denied coverage in your lifetime regardless of medical condition that would become a "precondition" and thereby the basis for rejection in the future.

taxes - only a sliver of your taxes are going to the ACA (unless you own a tanning salon or selling medical devices). You got a problem with taxes, talk to representatives from districts helping to build this -

http://www.dodbuzz.com/2012/03/20/mo...inty-for-f-35/

MLR - it's a start and more than anything else that's even been attempted before. Your beef is more with capitalism as it is practiced today - join the club.

Originally Posted by nihilist moron

Hey don't complain to me about it.
That's the best plan we found on the exchange after plugging in her info.
(She is terminally healthy with no money.)

If she has no money, there would be no tax penalty for not getting insurance. Moreover, she'd be on Medicaid.

Like I said, not 1, 2, or 3 BUT EVERY SUPPOSED "horror story" has fallen apart.

My guess is the people who keep posting these have an oversized right Amygdala -

http://viciousawesome.com/1/post/201...-that-way.html

Originally Posted by playwrite

If she has no money, there would be no tax penalty for not getting insurance. Moreover, she'd be on Medicaid.

Like I said, not 1, 2, or 3 BUT EVERY SUPPOSED "horror story" has fallen apart.

My guess is the people who keep posting these have an oversized right Amygdala -

http://viciousawesome.com/1/post/201...-that-way.html

Income too high to qualify for Medicaid, just above poverty level.
Is there no tax penalty for people who can get free insurance from subsidies? Can't find info on that anywhere.
It's not a horror story. Just a uselessness story. She's not a conservative, either. As I said before, she's a liberal hippie vegan who lives on an organic farm.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...re-entrenched/

Sorry, Republicans: Obamacare is getting more and more entrenched

Republicans have always had a problem where rhetoric meets reality on the Affordable Care Act. In the abstract, the law has never been overwhelmingly popular, but many of the things the law actually does — like preventing insurance companies from denying coverage because of pre-existing conditions — are extremely popular.

And so, if Republicans actually succeed in reversing the law’s progress in a meaningful way — as they might with the King v. Burwell lawsuit that could take coverage from millions of people — they may realize, like the dog that caught the car, that this wasn’t such a hot idea after all, and they might not know what to do about it.

There’s[/b] a new poll out from the Kaiser Family Foundation[/b] that not only highlights this problem; it also suggests where GOP efforts are going to be concentrated if the Supreme Court does them a favor and rules against them in King.

The survey looks at people who are in the non-group market, meaning the health insurance they have isn’t through their employer or through a government program like Medicare or Medicaid. Most of them got insurance through an ACA exchange.

Guess what? They’re pretty happy.

This is yet another conservative prediction about the ACA that failed to come true. Conservatives said that, like everything else about Obamacare, the exchanges would be a failure. But according to the KFF poll, a majority of people said they had the right amount of choices among different plans and shopping was easy. A full 74 percent rate their coverage as good or excellent. And most are satisfied with just about everything about their coverage
.
.
.
This is the problem of King v. Burwell, which is why every smart Republican is now probably praying the Supreme Court comes to their rescue and shoots the lawsuit down

Who'd of guessed?

Too funny.

Originally Posted by nihilist moron

I just helped a friend sign up through the Obamacare website.
She qualified for a hefty tax credit, but she'll be getting no benefits unless she meets the gigantic deductible that she can't afford to pay anyway. This was the only plan on the exchange that her budget could cover.
Meanwhile the insurance company collects corporate welfare. What a nifty system.

And here's an update:

ACA exchange sent her a letter asking for proof of income. Due to the nature of her business, and the fact that she just started it last year, she has none of the acceptable documents on their list. Customer service told her that she would lose her subsidies if she couldn't provide said documents. So she chose to cancel her coverage and will be charged a penalty for this year. (But I think they can't actually collect that penalty if she refuses to pay, because she won't be getting a tax refund.)

Originally Posted by nihilist moron

And here's an update:

ACA exchange sent her a letter asking for proof of income. Due to the nature of her business, and the fact that she just started it last year, she has none of the acceptable documents on their list. Customer service told her that she would lose her subsidies if she couldn't provide said documents. So she chose to cancel her coverage and will be charged a penalty for this year. (But I think they can't actually collect that penalty if she refuses to pay, because she won't be getting a tax refund.)

She runs a business without a checking account?

If she's running a business on only a cash basis and doesn't have receipts for income/expenses, she's going to have more trouble with the IRS than just ACA requirements.

Unless she's a complete ditz, I find this all pretty hard to believe. If she's a complete ditz, you may want to see if you can guide her away from pursuing self-employment.

Originally Posted by playwrite

She runs a business without a checking account?

If she's running a business on only a cash basis and doesn't have receipts for income/expenses, she's going to have more trouble with the IRS than just ACA requirements.

Unless she's a complete ditz, I find this all pretty hard to believe. If she's a complete ditz, you may want to see if you can guide her away from pursuing self-employment.

They don't accept receipts, and even if they did it wouldn't prove future 2015 income.

It would make a lot more sense if they based 2015 subsidies on 2014 tax returns, instead of making self- employed people guess at future income, and risk getting penalized at the end of the year if they guessed wrong. Even estimated tax payments are based on last year's return, so if you happen to guess wrong you aren't penalized.

Bottom line is it's a lot easier to take the penalty for being uninsured, which apparently isn't enforceable anyway.

Originally Posted by nihilist moron

They don't accept receipts, and even if they did it wouldn't prove future 2015 income.

It would make a lot more sense if they based 2015 subsidies on 2014 tax returns, instead of making self- employed people guess at future income, and risk getting penalized at the end of the year if they guessed wrong. Even estimated tax payments are based on last year's return, so if you happen to guess wrong you aren't penalized.

Bottom line is it's a lot easier to take the penalty for being uninsured, which apparently isn't enforceable anyway.

Rather than go back and forth on this, let's see if we can help.

This is a little over a year old, but I'm sure most of it still applies and there is likely to be updates if one just does a smidgen of googling -


http://whatifpost.com/an-obamacare-g...f-employed.htm

An Obamacare guide for freelancers and the self-employed
by ROB CULLEN on DECEMBER 12, 2013 - 8:45 AM

Lots of stuff there, but this may be most helpful -

2. You won’t get in trouble if your income estimate is wrong

The government will try to verify your income when you apply for Obamacare coverage, but it’s mainly geared towards catching obvious lies or mistakes– for example a person who has a full-time job and says they’re unemployed. Here’s how it works:

In the 36 states using the federal exchange, the estimates of all applications are then checked against Internal Revenue Service and Social Security records, looking for large discrepancies. If the amount supplied can’t be confirmed through federal records, it will be checked against wage information employers send to Equifax, a credit reporting agency. After a rule change this summer, states that have built their own exchanges don’t have to check every applicant for 2014, verifying only a sample of participants, said Timothy Jost, professor of law at Washington and Lee University.

If the estimate still can’t be verified, the exchange will request additional documentation from the applicant.

If you’re a freelancer or independent contractor you can send them your most recent 1099’s or a self-employment ledger and the government should take your word that it’s accurate. Says Jost:

“Our tax system is largely an honor system. For most Americans, there’s no way you can verify in advance what your income will be in a year. All you can do is make your best guess.”

UPDATE: A bunch of people have been asking what a self-employment ledger is, since that’s one of the things the IRS says freelancers can provide to verify their income. For most states, there’s no official form– anything that clearly breaks down your income and expenses is a “self-employed ledger.”

For an example of a self-employment ledger that you can use as a template, one of the commenters mentioned that South Dakota has a good one here. Also, New York is one of the few states that includes a self-employment ledger form as part of its online Obamacare application– you can see a screenshot of that here. You don’t have to copy them exactly, but those should give you a good idea of what kind of info the IRS is asking you to provide in a self-employment ledger.

And for more on income verification, Consumers Union has a good guide here.

UPDATE 2: Another commenter has pointed out that you can use accounting software, like Quicken, to generate a ledger as well.

The article has hyper-links for the key things I highligted.

Yes, she can just pay the penalty, but she will also not have insurance. She gets ill or injured this year without health insurance... are you able to take care of her?

"Self-employment ledger" is not on the list of acceptable documents. People should check these things out before posting incorrect info on the internet.
The lady she spoke with said this was not an uncommon problem and was sympathetic, but of course she couldn't override the rules.

Originally Posted by nihilist moron

"Self-employment ledger" is not on the list of acceptable documents. People should check these things out before posting incorrect info on the internet.
The lady she spoke with said this was not an uncommon problem and was sympathetic, but of course she couldn't override the rules.

Does that apply to me or to you/friend/"the lady."

The link I provided, if you cared to look, is from a non-profit dedicated to providing information on health insurance. You/friend/"the lady," well, who knows for sure your motivations?

That doesn't mean the non-profit is correct, and I noted it was over a year old reference. I did suggest a little googling around could bring you/friend and possible even "the lady" something to staunch the ignorance. I was under the assumption that you wanted to perhaps actually help your friend, rather than just take another opportunity to be a smartass. Silly me, ey?

For example, this took about 2 minutes of my precious time and it's dated May 5, 2015 -

http://thewestendnews.com/?p=2560

Words of Advice: Self-Employed In Need of Health Care

....We are learning about more and more people having trouble with the income verification process,” said Eric Covey, the Consumer Assistance Program Manager at Consumers for Affordable Health Care (CAHC).

The problem with income verification begins with the fact that no two self-employed persons have the same tax and income situation, nor do they necessarily keep their books the same way. As such, the government is unclear about what they want, and all that is asked for is a “self-employment ledger.”

What does that mean? According to Eric Covey, quarterly tax statements, profit loss statements, and future earnings projections are usually acceptable options.

The next step is to get the documents to the government in time. If you can, Eric recommends that you upload your documents directly to your online HealthCare.gov account. This will hopefully avoid processing delays.

If you must mail documents, make sure to send them via certified mail. This way you will have proof that the documents were sent and received.

Also, make sure to use the zip code extender — the extra four digits that appear after the five digit zip code. This helps ensure that the documents are received by the correct department at HealthCare.gov.

A couple more things: make sure to return the bar-coded page you received from HealthCare.gov, when the verification documents were requested, and put your Application ID on each page you are sending.

If your income is above the federal poverty level, then you must enroll in coverage or face an IRS penalty of $325 per person or 2% of household income, whichever is greater.

If you earn less than the Federal Poverty Line, $11,770 per year for a single adult, then you are not eligible to receive a tax credit. Instead, you are supposed to enroll with your State’s medicaid program...


For help with your particular situation, call the Consumers for Affordable Health Care hotline, 1-800-965-7476, and they can direct you to options that may help. They can also help with your questions about self-employment income verification.

Something else you might consider -

“It is better to light a single candle than to curse the darkness.” ― Eleanor Roosevelt

"The lady" refers to the customer service rep at the ACA exchange. If she's giving out incorrect info, that's another problem, eh?
I'm a moronass, not a smartass. Thought you knew that already.

http://www.city-journal.org/2015/eon0604yf.html

New York City’s unionized municipal employees and retirees enjoy some of the most expansive—and expensive—health-insurance benefits in the country. But in 2018, Obamacare’s tax on such generous plans will finally kick in, and public-sector union plans will be the first hit by the so-called Cadillac Tax. How much the penalty will amount to remains unknown, but one thing’s for sure: New Yorkers will wind up footing the bill...

The massive cost of paying full freight for nearly half a million employees’ health care is one reason why the city budget will run a $1.4 billion deficit in 2018...

The ACA imposes a 40 percent excise tax on the value of health insurance costing $10,200 or more for individual plans and $27,500 or more for family plans. And because the tax is indexed to the general rate of inflation rather than to faster-growing health-care inflation, it will hit more plans each year...

-So, where is Marx & Lennon's "outrage" over those "greedy employers" now?

He He He!

Of course, Playdude was all in favor of punitive taxes on so-called "Cadillac Plans":

Originally Posted by playwrite

...again, with the taxes! Exactly whose health insurance is getting taxed. Hint, do a search of "Cadillac insurance policies"...

..and:

Originally Posted by playwrite

...here is probable the best down-to-earth list of what the ACA actually does -

http://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikei...d_what_did_it/

...2018

...A new tax on "Cadillac" health care plans (more expensive plans for rich people who want fancier coverage)...

...and yet again:

Originally Posted by playwrite

...here is an overview of "cadillac plans" that gets to what you are saying; although I don't think it says nearly enough about the $40K plus per year plans that the Wall St. types have for themselves and their families -

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...093004730.html

Hoist by their own petard!

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/05/us...ml?ref=us&_r=0

Just a few years ago, lawmakers in this left-leaning state viewed President Obama’s Affordable Care Act as little more than a pit stop on the road to a far more ambitious goal: single-payer, universal health care for all residents.Then things unraveled...

...Under the single-payer law that the Vermont Legislature passed in 2011, the state was to seek a waiver in 2017 to trade its insurance exchange for the government-run system. Most of its 625,000 residents would be eligible for a uniform package of benefits under that system, which would be financed with a mix of state and federal funds. But Mr. Shumlin and his advisers concluded the plan would require “enormous” new taxes... the plan would require about $2.5 billion in additional revenue in its first year, in a state that raises only about $2.7 billion in taxes annually...

...Vermont, with its initial view of the Affordable Care Act as a bridge to a single-payer system, is in a singularly unhappy position.

...despite the fact that they'd have been getting money from the US Taxpayer. Wow.

Originally Posted by nihilist moron

"The lady" refers to the customer service rep at the ACA exchange. If she's giving out incorrect info, that's another problem, eh?

-What do they know?

No. I'm serious. What do they know?

It's nice to see that Plymaster Flash is still humping Obamacare. I think even Mr. Horn has given up on that one.

Originally Posted by nihilist moron

"The lady" refers to the customer service rep at the ACA exchange. If she's giving out incorrect info, that's another problem, eh?
I'm a moronass, not a smartass. Thought you knew that already.

You can go to the DMV and get wrong information. You can go to a WalMart and get wrong information. It happens.

What's instructive here is not really that you would rather spend your time cursing the darkness than lighting a candle (i.e. just give your friend the helpline phone number).

Instead, what you give of real value is another example of how an amygdala-dominated person truly believes that a single anecdote is a counter weight to tons of data.

It really is breath-taking to those of us with fully-functioning cerebral lobes.

Originally Posted by JDG 66

Of course, Playdude was all in favor of punitive taxes on so-called "Cadillac Plans":

Yep, way okay with the excise tax on Cadillac Plans.

Those plans drive up medical and insurance costs for everyone. Out year capture of more insurance plans just requires a simple inflation adjustment - voting Democrat will greatly enhance that prospect.

For those whose cerebral lobes are not short-circuited by their amygdala, here's a pretty good explanation of why the tax is good thing from a former GOP Senate Leader in that bastion of Liberal thought, Forbes -

http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapoth...f-health-care/


Glick, don't bother, instead just go find some update on the Mayan Calendar zombie apocalypse or something that will get your amygdala off.

Originally Posted by playwrite

You can go to the DMV and get wrong information. You can go to a WalMart and get wrong information. It happens.

What's instructive here is not really that you would rather spend your time cursing the darkness than lighting a candle (i.e. just give your friend the helpline phone number).

Instead, what you give of real value is another example of how an amygdala-dominated person truly believes that a single anecdote is a counter weight to tons of data.

It really is breath-taking to those of us with fully-functioning cerebral lobes.

Do what? I didn't give anyone a phone number. She got it off the letter that they sent her, the one asking her to provide certain documents as proof of income. I suppose that was also incorrect information?
I'm not cursing anything, just relating a story. If you don't think that it poses a threat to your "tons of data," use your fully-functioning cerebral lobes and ignore it.

Maybe JDG needs help with definition of terms:

Amygdala is the integrative center for emotions, emotional behavior, and motivation. If the brain is turned upside down the end of the structure continuous with the hippocampus is called the uncus. If you peel away uncus you will expose the amygdala which abuts the anterior of the hippocampus. Just like with the hippocampus, major pathways communicate bidirectionally and contain both efferent and afferent fibers.

http://neuroscience.uth.tmc.edu/s4/chapter06.html

Hope that helps, Mr. JDG lol

Originally Posted by nihilist moron

Do what? I didn't give anyone a phone number. She got it off the letter that they sent her, the one asking her to provide certain documents as proof of income. I suppose that was also incorrect information?
I'm not cursing anything, just relating a story. If you don't think that it poses a threat to your "tons of data," use your fully-functioning cerebral lobes and ignore it.

To save you the tremendous amount of work to scroll up (let alone, not to frighten your amygdala that there might be dragons there!), here's the phone number again -

For help with your particular situation, call the Consumers for Affordable Health Care hotline, 1-800-965-7476, and they can direct you to options that may help. They can also help with your questions about self-employment income verification.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Maybe JDG needs help with definition of terms:

Amygdala is the integrative center for emotions, emotional behavior, and motivation. If the brain is turned upside down the end of the structure continuous with the hippocampus is called the uncus. If you peel away uncus you will expose the amygdala which abuts the anterior of the hippocampus. Just like with the hippocampus, major pathways communicate bidirectionally and contain both efferent and afferent fibers.

http://neuroscience.uth.tmc.edu/s4/chapter06.html

Hope that helps, Mr. JDG lol

... and he could move beyond the basic neuro structures/functions and into a farily deep reseach on the relative size/activity/influence of the amygdala on conservatives vis-a-vis liberal mindset. Lots of links but this one pulls it together pretty well -

http://www.alternet.org/story/155210..._is_terrifying

Why Is the Conservative Brain More Fearful? The Alternate Reality Right-Wingers Inhabit Is Terrifying

Walk a mile in your ideological counterparts' shoes...if you dare.

Consider for a moment just how terrifying it must be to live life as a true believer on the right. Reality is scary enough, but the alternative reality inhabited by people who watch Glenn Beck, listen to Rush Limbaugh, or think Michele Bachmann isn't a joke must be nothing less than horrifying....

Dominating reptilian brain mass - there but for the grace of God.

Let's be thankful, but lets us realize there is no decent way to placate the amygdala-dominated - we need to work hard to remove them from political power.

Originally Posted by playwrite

To save you the tremendous amount of work to scroll up (let alone, not to frighten your amygdala that there might be dragons there!), here's the phone number again -

Have you tried calling that number? I just did.
Check it out and see what happens.