Except the Awakening didn't actually do anything. The anti-war movement failed to stop war. The Women's movement failed to establish laws that helped women's interests (Row v. Wade was passed by a Supreme Court with no prophet Justices (not just no Boomers, no prophets), and the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was passed by an overwhelmingly GI majority Congress and women's inclusion to the act was made by Rep. Howard W. Smith, a Dixiecrat style Democrat who was believed to have added women to sink the Bill). Gay Rights failed to establish laws and even a general culture which was friendly or even neutral to gay folks outside of very limited urban areas. The Civil Rights Movement started in the high, was only effective under Silent leadership, and was in decline early in the Awakening.

Infact, I'd say that there was more done in the unravelling in terms of fostering a culture that respected the rights and coexistance of people in the United States than the Awakening accomplished. The Awakening was cage rattling over victories that had already been won, not a genuine awakening.

Originally Posted by Kepi

Except the Awakening didn't actually do anything. The anti-war movement failed to stop war. The Women's movement failed to establish laws that helped women's interests (Row v. Wade was passed by a Supreme Court with no prophet Justices (not just no Boomers, no prophets), and the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was passed by an overwhelmingly GI majority Congress and women's inclusion to the act was made by Rep. Howard W. Smith, a Dixiecrat style Democrat who was believed to have added women to sink the Bill). Gay Rights failed to establish laws and even a general culture which was friendly or even neutral to gay folks outside of very limited urban areas. The Civil Rights Movement started in the high, was only effective under Silent leadership, and was in decline early in the Awakening.

In fact, I'd say that there was more done in the Unraveling in terms of fostering a culture that respected the rights and co-existence of people in the United States than the Awakening accomplished. The Awakening was cage rattling over victories that had already been won, not a genuine awakening.

Agreed, but this would suppose that a purpose of an Awakening is to get things done. I don't think an Awakening should EVER be claimed to be a period where things are accomplished, because an Awakening--archetypicaly--is not about getting things done in reality on this earthly plane. It's instead about reaching that heavenly plane of ideals and ideas (at least archetypicaly). Archetypicaly the mythos that is associated with the Awakening/Summer is the "Romance" mythos.

What are the major concerns/themes in your typical Romance?:

• Having a strong connection with the "spiritual world" or things beyond the human experience (in your typical Romance, your protagonist(s) commune with God or other Heavenly beings)

• Defeating the Dragon/Sea Monster (aka pure evil which attempts to "devour" the young)

• Replacing the Decrepit Old King and Marrying the Young Princess (aka redeem us from corruption)

• Self-improvement by engaging in a quest that takes one to several different communities, during the quest it is usually required of your "self" to "die" and be "reborn" (aka spiritual journey)

• Rediscovering Love after having lost it (Romances are rarely about marriage/falling in love--Comedies/Spring are about that--they typically are set after the marriage/falling in love has taken place or the marriage/falling in love happens very early on typically--or it happens in side characters that aren't the main focus of the Romance, or if they are then their marriage was delayed by circumstances and due to the delay they fell out of love and now have to learn to love one another once again--Romances are thus typically about "life after marriage")

• Discovering that Death is an Illusion (because there's more to life than what's here on this earthly plane)

Some examples of works of art that either are outright Romances or contain the elements of one:

Shakuntala
The Odyssey
Alcestis
St. George and the Dragon
Arthurian Legend
The Second Shepherd's Play
Pericles, Prince of Tyre
Cymbeline
The Winter's Tale
The Tempest
The Snow Queen
Siegfried
Star Wars
Clash of the Titans
Legend
The Princess Bride
Dragonslayer
The Lord of the Rings


The typical plot of every Romance is summed up quite nicely in this trailer:



The young are being sacrificed at the expense of the old to the evil "dragon". The old have made a deal with evil and are corrupt, therefore they need to be replaced with the youth and the story is about their struggle to oust the old. By doing this, the young will be able to redeem us from the sin that the old have brought upon us.

In our past Awakening: the Dragon Boomers faced was Vietnam & the Old King they replaced was Nixon.
For the Missionaries: the Dragon(s) Missionaries faced were Robber Barons & the Old King they replaced was Cleveland.

~*~

So to judge an Awakening by what it accomplishes "here on earth" is ludicrous, because an Awakening archetypicaly isn't concerned with the goings on of things here on earth. But that spiritual/ideal/heavenly realm--they sure as hell are more interested in that. So theoretically, you could look at an Awakening and say it's a period of time in which "very little" on earth is accomplished, that things go to rot as we retreat within ourselves and ignore our earthly communities (thus allowing for the crime rates to rise during an Awakening).

If you want to know the turning that archetypicaly is all about our "earthly" domain, I'll point you in the direction of the High/Spring.

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by Chas88

So to judge an Awakening on what it accomplishes "here on earth" is ludicrous...

I say that a change in spirit manifests in a change action, but if we can't judge the Awakening's success or failure on action, what have we left?

Well, where's the new ideas or ideals? All of the early "blue wave" ideals were either holdovers from the last 2T or holdovers from the 1T's response to the 4T, and were grounded in a doomed to fail philosophy created in the 1T. The "red wave" ideals were crafted in response to the blue wave, and also grounded in a different arrangement of the same doomed to fail philosophy (which is the joy of postmodernism, I guess... Easily accessable, shallow, and simple), and what I see as the "white wave" was crafted in response to the unrealistic ideas and ideals crafted under this doomed to fail philosophy, all the while adhearing to the concepts held in that philosophy.

It was a time of cage rattling, not new ideas. I mean, congratulations, these guys were the first generation to eat LSD while sporting the worst in mustaches? Awesome work keeping enough disposable income around to complete the metaphor by using it to snort cocaine? The unfortunate reality of the Romance as life metaphor era is that that metaphor can mean anything to any one.

On the one hand, it can be about finding an amazing person and working hard to continue to create a sense of adventure within the world you live in. On the other hand it can be an excuse to leave your wife and run off with a secretary. Meanwhile this Awakening seemed to choose the way of the mysterious third hand and used it as an excuse to avoid adult responsibility while taking on adult benefits in every way at every opportunity possible.

The Awakening in the civil war saeculum set us up for abolishing slavery in the crisis era, as well as provided the the full vision which drove Manifest Destiny and planted the seeds for industrialization. The Awakening in the Great Power saeculum set us up for labor rights and prohibition, providing the tools to control what was had begun in the prior saeculum. Like it or hate it, the change in ideas actually produced results. So the 2T set us up to...?

Those ideals don't just have an impact on the 4T, they're supposed to provide the course through the 3rd and 4th T's. Ideals failed to be established, new ideas weren't created. It was childish navel gazing passed off as stage combat in a theater where everyone was born without imagination for which they found halucinogens to be a suitable replacement.

Originally Posted by Kepi

Those ideals don't just have an impact on the 4T, they're supposed to provide the course through the 3rd and 4th T's. Ideals failed to be established, new ideas weren't created. It was childish navel gazing passed off as stage combat in a theater where everyone was born without imagination for which they found halucinogens to be a suitable replacement.

Agreed completely. Hence why I look at our last Awakening and go: boy did it pale in comparison to what came before it.

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by Kepi

Meanwhile this Awakening seemed to choose the way of the mysterious third hand and used it as an excuse to avoid adult responsibility while taking on adult benefits in every way at every opportunity possible.

This is the common social critique of the Awakening years (typically Rock 'n' Roll culture) that I've found from nearly every published source outside of S&H that I've looked into. And to me it screams to be a blend of the archetypal Unraveling and the archetypal Awakening.

Archetypal Unraveling/Autumn/Tragedy:

• We've lost communication with the divine and the old rituals which used to work no longer do so.
• We're condemned to a corrupt earthly world full of vice and sin and things are only getting worse by the day because no one is interested in changing any of that, people would rather escape, ignore, or transcend it.
• We're left reaching out for greater ideals than we can possibly achieve in our "fallen state".
• There is no community outside of a group of self-interested individuals who are willing to sacrifice one of their own (who's unwilling) to try and keep things going. (the sacrifice being part of the old rituals that don't work) -- The difference from the Romance is that in Romance you have the few sacrificing the many, in Tragedy you have the many sacrificing the few.
• A "great" individual attempts to be better than they possibly can due to their inherently flawed nature that they are blind to (because they wish to escape, ignore, or transcend all that), causing their downfall.
• Another thing that should be noted is that self-interested people are possessive, materialistic people, and are typically absorbed in getting revenge or "justice" as vengeance gets called in tragedy. Ultimately in Classical tragedy there's typically a "lesson learned" from all the blood feuding is that justice and vengeance aren't always the same thing, from those who survive.
• There isn't anything beyond death and it is considered the ultimate end, the only thing that does live on is the legacy one leaves here on earth. And a lot of that reputation ultimately comes down to how one chooses to die--there's a kind of saving grace in having control over how you die. Othello becomes a tragic hero for example by choosing at the last moment to turn his life and reputation into a story, his ability to tell stories--what attracted Desdemona in the first place--and his final monologues where he employs this talent is what make him a tragic hero instead of a needless victim. And in choosing to kill himself and preferring the death of a soldier--for whom there's only two honorable ways out: death by falling on one's knife or death in battle--rather than being taken before the Venetian people and executed by the community, Othello achieves a status of legacy that will propel his story on into the future.
• The individual is up against forces that it cannot change or affect (in most tragedies this is fate or destiny) and often there is a powerless feeling that comes along with that.
• Given the above, reputation, personal image, and earthly legacy are hugely important both while you're alive and after you die.

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by The Grey Badger

The main area for action was the slowly developing Renaissance thinking and proto-Reformation preachers.

The deuces wild people were everything one could imagine - flagellants, Bogomils, all sorts of wild and crazy movements.

I thought you might be referring to something more specific. My read on the 14^th century is given in the per-1435 saeculum thread in Beyond America.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Good question. The fractile proposition would assume that an entire saeculum functions as a "generation" in a mega-saeculum.

I am familiar with the idea and have used it myself . You see the idea in financial cycles, the grand superctcle (an Elliot-wave concept) would be the equivalent to the megasaeculum. The long cycle corresponds to the saeculum. The Kondratiev wave, BAAC supercycle or Stock Cycle is one-half saeculum. The Bronson Kuznets cycle/secular trend/turning is next. A sub-harmonic of this is a Juglar or ordinary business cycle, and a subharmonic is the Kitchen or four-year (electoral) cycle.

Originally Posted by Chas'88

This is the common social critique of the Awakening years (typically Rock 'n' Roll culture) that I've found from nearly every published source outside of S&H that I've looked into. And to me it screams to be a blend of the archetypal Unraveling and the archetypal Awakening.

The critique is not necessarily correct on all points.

Archetypal Unraveling/Autumn/Tragedy:


We've lost communication with the divine and the old rituals which used to work no longer do so.

So in the Awakening, communication was restored. That is what happened. Critics are just folks on the outside who could not or refused to experience it.

We're condemned to a corrupt earthly world full of vice and sin and things are only getting worse by the day because no one is interested in changing any of that, people would rather escape, ignore, or transcend it.

The counter-culture was not just an escape, but a new world. At the same time, in the Awakening there was unprecedented social activism and rising expectations for change and a new world. People acted directly to build environmentalism and consumerism, and laws were drastically changed. Liberation movements brought amazing changes, renewed lives and expanded opportunities beyond any in history. Your description applies only to the 3T that followed the awakening. Why Chas do you refuse to see what happened during our recent 2T??

We're left reaching out for greater ideals than we can possibly achieve in our "fallen state".

The Awakening consisted of people in a state of awakened new consciousness, a "rising state" not a "fallen state." The new children lived while their elders died.

There is no community outside of a group of self-interested individuals who are willing to sacrifice one of their own (who's unwilling) to try and keep things going. (the sacrifice being part of the old rituals that don't work) -- The difference from the Romance is that in Romance you have the few sacrificing the many, in Tragedy you have the many sacrificing the few.

If the Awakening is supposed to be the Romance stage, well you certainly had a few like Dr. King and RFK who sacrified themselves for the many.

A "great" individual attempts to be better than they possibly can due to their inherently flawed nature that they are blind to (because they wish to escape, ignore, or transcend all that), causing their downfall.

Great people in the Awakening fell to random acts of violence, not their flaws.

Another thing that should be noted is that self-interested people are possessive, materialistic people, and are typically absorbed in getting revenge or "justice" as vengeance gets called in tragedy. Ultimately in Classical tragedy there's typically a "lesson learned" from all the blood feuding is that justice and vengeance aren't always the same thing, from those who survive.

In the Awakening people learned to smile on your brother and try to love one another right now.

You need to look within through introspection and meditation in order to free yourself from possessive and materialist urges and illusions. That's what the Awakening was all about.

There isn't anything beyond death and it is considered the ultimate end, the only thing that does live on is the legacy one leaves here on earth. And a lot of that reputation ultimately comes down to how one chooses to die--there's a kind of saving grace in having control over how you die. Othello becomes a tragic hero for example by choosing at the last moment to turn his life and reputation into a story, his ability to tell stories--what attracted Desdemona in the first place--and his final monologues where he employs this talent is what make him a tragic hero instead of a needless victim. And in choosing to kill himself and preferring the death of a soldier--for whom there's only two honorable ways out: death by falling on one's knife or death in battle--rather than being taken before the Venetian people and executed by the community, Othello achieves a status of legacy that will propel his story on into the future.

What the Awakening brought into our culture was many reports of near-death, past-life and mediumship experiences that had been repressed. Thanks to the Awakening, such reports and experiences have become quite common.

The individual is up against forces that it cannot change or affect (in most tragedies this is fate or destiny) and often there is a powerless feeling that comes along with that.

In the Awakening, people felt more empowered to make change than ever before, and they did. Feminism, gay rights, the war on poverty, consumer protection, the environment, the peace movement, civil rights and power among ethnic groups; all advanced as never before. When the 3T came, these were all stalled or squelched.

Given the above, reputation, personal image, and earthly legacy are hugely important both while you're alive and after you die. [/LIST]

~Chas'88

The Awakening brought the truth to more people than ever before in America, that goals of status and wealth are fleeting and unworthy pursuits.

You just can't attribute the 3T mood of Gen X and early Millies to the entire saeculum. It is not true. If there is a mega-saeculum, the millennial saeculum can only be the American High, a first turning. America has been the #1 nation in the world throughout. In the cycle of civilization, we are in renaissance phase. To adopt a cynical view of our stage, is to escape from your responsibility to create the new renaissance now. Go to Alex Grey's Temple and worship. Get with it.

Originally Posted by Kepi

I say that a change in spirit manifests in a change action, but if we can't judge the Awakening's success or failure on action, what have we left?

Well, where's the new ideas or ideals? All of the early "blue wave" ideals were either holdovers from the last 2T or holdovers from the 1T's response to the 4T, and were grounded in a doomed to fail philosophy created in the 1T. The "red wave" ideals were crafted in response to the blue wave, and also grounded in a different arrangement of the same doomed to fail philosophy (which is the joy of postmodernism, I guess... Easily accessable, shallow, and simple), and what I see as the "white wave" was crafted in response to the unrealistic ideas and ideals crafted under this doomed to fail philosophy, all the while adhering to the concepts held in that philosophy.

New ideals from the Awakening: living from the heart and from spirit, not just from material ambition and social approval. Following your bliss.

Restoring the environment; for the first time humanity experienced its connection with Mother Earth and established major laws to protect it from our greed. Environmentalism is a huge new ideal spawned in the Awakening.

Consumer protection was established for the first time, started by Ralph Nader in 1966. So many things started then that it is simply amazing to behold. Liberation movements freed countless people as never before from life-stifling roles.

Your black wave was merely people who didn't experience the blue wave. There's always a few who miss the boat.

It was a time of cage rattling, not new ideas. I mean, congratulations, these guys were the first generation to eat LSD while sporting the worst in mustaches? Awesome work keeping enough disposable income around to complete the metaphor by using it to snort cocaine? The unfortunate reality of the Romance as life metaphor era is that that metaphor can mean anything to any one.

On the one hand, it can be about finding an amazing person and working hard to continue to create a sense of adventure within the world you live in. On the other hand it can be an excuse to leave your wife and run off with a secretary. Meanwhile this Awakening seemed to choose the way of the mysterious third hand and used it as an excuse to avoid adult responsibility while taking on adult benefits in every way at every opportunity possible.

The new ideas were legion, as I mentioned. Some used LSD to expand consciousness and change their lives. The New Age took over as a substitute for endless tripping; it works. Those who avoided responsibility are those who refused to answer the Awakening's call. It was the loudest call ever heard by humans, but it resonated through the most corrupt materialist society ever created. So it was hard for many folks to hear. Those who were too young to experience it, such as Kepi and Chas, are at a disadvantage in that respect. But it's no excuse. It is there if you choose to look.

The Awakening in the civil war saeculum set us up for abolishing slavery in the crisis era, as well as provided the the full vision which drove Manifest Destiny and planted the seeds for industrialization. The Awakening in the Great Power saeculum set us up for labor rights and prohibition, providing the tools to control what was had begun in the prior saeculum. Like it or hate it, the change in ideas actually produced results. So the 2T set us up to...?

Those ideals don't just have an impact on the 4T, they're supposed to provide the course through the 3rd and 4th T's. Ideals failed to be established, new ideas weren't created. It was childish navel gazing passed off as stage combat in a theater where everyone was born without imagination for which they found halucinogens to be a suitable replacement.

Completely incorrect, and anyone who agrees is also incorrect. Environmentalism is the #1 idea now that we need to guide us through the crisis of our 4T. The peace movement guides us to end the needless wars now. Rediscovery of human feelings and higher consciousness is our guide to building new communities designed to foster relationships to our fellows and to the earth, and new education that fosters creativity and engagement. Knocking the awakening is about the stupidest thing you can do at a time when its guidance is most needed for resolving the crisis and building the next 1T and 2T. The counter awakening and its cynicism means nothing, and Reagan and Falwell and the materialists and the punk rockers of the black wave and all their ilk will have no impact on history when all is said and done; none whatever. Cynicism and blindness has built no civilizations; they never did and they never will. Imagination, dedication and persistence to the cause do.

Imagination was opened as never before, not only with LSD and psychedelics, but psycho-cybernetics, the human potential movement, creative visualization and countless other movements and practices that came into our culture. Your own unwillingness to make use of what has come into our culture, is no excuse to knock those who did make use of it. Gen Xers and early millies need to stop being cynical and get on board with the new renaissance now. Why did none of you visit the thread I started on the human potential movement?

Originally Posted by Mikebert

I am familiar with the idea and have used it myself . You see the idea in financial cycles, the grand superctcle (an Elliot-wave concept) would be the equivalent to the megasaeculum. The long cycle corresponds to the saeculum. The Kondratiev wave, BAAC supercycle or Stock Cycle is one-half saeculum. The Bronson Kuznets cycle/secular trend/turning is next. A sub-harmonic of this is a Juglar or ordinary business cycle, and a subharmonic is the Kitchen or four-year (electoral) cycle.

It could have some meaning, but I don't see the saeculum as the only cycle around which all others are built. As you admit, these other cycles are rather irregular. It also does not necessarily imply that the cynics who didn't catch the call of the Awakening are right about which mega-turning we are in.

Originally Posted by Chas'88

Agreed, but this would suppose that a purpose of an Awakening is to get things done. I don't think an Awakening should EVER be claimed to be a period where things are accomplished, because an Awakening--archetypicaly--is not about getting things done in reality on this earthly plane. It's instead about reaching that heavenly plane of ideals and ideas (at least archetypicaly). Archetypicaly the mythos that is associated with the Awakening/Summer is the "Romance" mythos.

What are the major concerns/themes in your typical Romance?:

• Having a strong connection with the "spiritual world" or things beyond the human experience (in your typical Romance, your protagonist(s) commune with God or other Heavenly beings)

• Defeating the Dragon/Sea Monster (aka pure evil which attempts to "devour" the young)

• Replacing the Decrepit Old King and Marrying the Young Princess (aka redeem us from corruption)

• Self-improvement by engaging in a quest that takes one to several different communities, during the quest it is usually required of your "self" to "die" and be "reborn" (aka spiritual journey)

• Rediscovering Love after having lost it (Romances are rarely about marriage/falling in love--Comedies/Spring are about that--they typically are set after the marriage/falling in love has taken place or the marriage/falling in love happens very early on typically--or it happens in side characters that aren't the main focus of the Romance, or if they are then their marriage was delayed by circumstances and due to the delay they fell out of love and now have to learn to love one another once again--Romances are thus typically about "life after marriage")

• Discovering that Death is an Illusion (because there's more to life than what's here on this earthly plane)

Some examples of works of art that either are outright Romances or contain the elements of one:

Shakuntala
The Odyssey
Alcestis
St. George and the Dragon
Arthurian Legend
The Second Shepherd's Play
Pericles, Prince of Tyre
Cymbeline
The Winter's Tale
The Tempest
The Snow Queen
Siegfried
Star Wars
Clash of the Titans
Legend
The Princess Bride
Dragonslayer
The Lord of the Rings


The typical plot of every Romance is summed up quite nicely in this trailer:



The young are being sacrificed at the expense of the old to the evil "dragon". The old have made a deal with evil and are corrupt, therefore they need to be replaced with the youth and the story is about their struggle to oust the old. By doing this, the young will be able to redeem us from the sin that the old have brought upon us.

In our past Awakening: the Dragon Boomers faced was Vietnam & the Old King they replaced was Nixon.
For the Missionaries: the Dragon(s) Missionaries faced were Robber Barons & the Old King they replaced was Cleveland.

~*~

So to judge an Awakening by what it accomplishes "here on earth" is ludicrous, because an Awakening archetypicaly isn't concerned with the goings on of things here on earth. But that spiritual/ideal/heavenly realm--they sure as hell are more interested in that. So theoretically, you could look at an Awakening and say it's a period of time in which "very little" on earth is accomplished, that things go to rot as we retreat within ourselves and ignore our earthly communities (thus allowing for the crime rates to rise during an Awakening).

If you want to know the turning that archetypicaly is all about our "earthly" domain, I'll point you in the direction of the High/Spring.

~Chas'88

And as the seminal figure from the Great Awakening of ~30 C.E. said to the Old Dragon's representative, "My kingdom is not of this world."

Originally Posted by Kepi

Except the Awakening didn't actually do anything. The anti-war movement failed to stop war. The Women's movement failed to establish laws that helped women's interests (Row v. Wade was passed by a Supreme Court with no prophet Justices (not just no Boomers, no prophets), and the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was passed by an overwhelmingly GI majority Congress and women's inclusion to the act was made by Rep. Howard W. Smith, a Dixiecrat style Democrat who was believed to have added women to sink the Bill). Gay Rights failed to establish laws and even a general culture which was friendly or even neutral to gay folks outside of very limited urban areas. The Civil Rights Movement started in the high, was only effective under Silent leadership, and was in decline early in the Awakening.

Infact, I'd say that there was more done in the unravelling in terms of fostering a culture that respected the rights and coexistance of people in the United States than the Awakening accomplished. The Awakening was cage rattling over victories that had already been won, not a genuine awakening.

While Chas point is right that the Awakening does not focus mainly on worldly accomplishments, but instead on recovering the vision of what is beyond the world of the senses, which it did by creating a vast new age counter-culture and spirituality and its visionary arts, Kepi's contention is entirely wrong nevertheless.

Kepi you haven't seen the PBS documentaries on women's liberation (just a couple of weeks ago) or gay liberation (some time back). It is quite clear that in the Awakening, these groups and others suddenly in the late sixties awakened to their own power and began their activism. It is another question about which generation passed laws or made decisions in the Awakening; obviously Boomers were too young to do that. But they made the movements of the late 60s, which led to laws being changed in the following years from the 2T to today and beyond. In 1978 the first gay city supervisor was elected in San Francisco, and an initiative to tighten anti-gay laws was defeated in CA. In 1982 Wisconsin became the first state to ban hiring discrimination against gays. Discrimination against women was increasingly outlawed in the 60s and 70s since it was banned in the 1964 civil rights act. The Civil rights movement began in the 1T, but it climaxed on the eve of the awakening in 1963, and the law was passed in the first awakening year. Boomers were very active in that movement in the sixties, and it helped inspire many others. The ethnic liberation movements that followed starting in 1966 focused on things like black and chicano power, and also accomplished a great deal toward electing black officials in the following years and in changing the culture of personal identity and pride. The entire Great Society program started in 1965 and reduced poverty and opened opportunity. The peace movement got going in 1966 and it stopped the Vietnam War by 1973. It kept us out of wars until 1991. To say the Awakening didn't actually do anything also intentionally omits the consumer movement started by Ralph Nader in 1966 that resulted in many important laws, and the environmental movement that resulted in saving SF Bay and other waterways, the clean air and water acts, toxic waste clean-ups, the endangered species act, and environmental impact reports being required all over the country. It was the start of solar energy and a new energy policy by President Jimmy Carter and CA Gov. Jerry Brown, etc. Plus, the SST and nuclear power were both stopped in the USA; both good things IMO. Animal rights is another Awakening legacy.

There has been a lot of resistance since the late 70s counter-awakening and in the horrible and almost useless 3T that followed to all these things, and some other things got worse, at least for a while. That doesn't mean the sixties movements didn't do anything.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Kepi you haven't seen the PBS documentaries on women's liberation (just a couple of weeks ago) or gay liberation (some time back). It is quite clear that in the Awakening, these groups and others suddenly in the late sixties awakened to their own power and began their activism.

To give credit where credit is due, I think the awakening did accomplish some good things (beyond the obviously awesome music). However, in a lot of ways, the awakening focused on individualistic gains.

There was less of an attempt to reform the system than there was to ensure that everyone could participate (regardless of color, creed, sexual orientation, or even drug of choice). Rather than treat people as part of groups deemed inferior or superior, they were treated more as individuals responsible for their own actions.

This is paying dividends in the fact that women and ethnic minorities have a lot more career & educational & relationship opportunities, or in the fact that states are rather quickly legalizing gay marriage & marijuana.

The awakening, however, didn't (effectively) address unbridled greed through the pursuit of secular and physical pleasures. In many ways, the last awakening celebrated it.

Originally Posted by JohnMc82

To give credit where credit is due, I think the awakening did accomplish some good things (beyond the obviously awesome music). However, in a lot of ways, the awakening focused on individualistic gains.

There was less of an attempt to reform the system than there was to ensure that everyone could participate (regardless of color, creed, sexual orientation, or even drug of choice). Rather than treat people as part of groups deemed inferior or superior, they were treated more as individuals responsible for their own actions.

This is paying dividends in the fact that women and ethnic minorities have a lot more career & educational & relationship opportunities, or in the fact that states are rather quickly legalizing gay marriage & marijuana.

The awakening, however, didn't (effectively) address unbridled greed through the pursuit of secular and physical pleasures. In many ways, the last awakening celebrated it.

Thanks for giving the Awakening at least some of its due. I don't know why when people say it was individualistic, that people forget environmentalism, consumerism, the war on poverty, the peace movement and so on, which were all strong until the Republicans took over in 1980. Didn't you see my post? Critics over-emphasize the Awakening's interest in pleasure, when what made it possible was liberation from limited consciousness, whether through psychedelics or other means (including the awesome psychedelic music). And celebrating only the "individual" neglects a number of things; including that these liberation movements were not just about liberating individuals, but redefining social roles; and that expanding consciousness also challenged the scientism/materialist mindset (represented here by vandal), as many Awakenings do, as well as traditional religious dogmas. Looking only at social change neglects this. The backlash was also part of the Awakening from the start, which among other things brought about Reaganomics and its celebration and enabling of greed; but I rather regard the backlash as the counter-awakening, which sought for return of conditions that existed long before the awakening, rather than the Awakening's own legacy. The religious right was another element of this counter-awakening, which was strongest at the end of the 2T.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

I don't know why when people say it was individualistic, that people forget environmentalism, consumerism, the war on poverty, the peace movement and so on, which were all strong until the Republicans took over in 1980. Didn't you see my post? Critics over-emphasize the Awakening's interest in pleasure, when what made it possible was liberation from limited consciousness, whether through psychedelics or other means (including the awesome psychedelic music).

Well I'm not trying to say what it meant to you or what lessons an individual could potentially learn, I'm just trying to look at what parts our society in general has kept and what parts society has fought against successfully.

And celebrating only the "individual" neglects a number of things; including that these liberation movements were not just about liberating individuals, but redefining social roles;

There's nothing inherently wrong with progress for individuals. It's probably a good thing that we've challenged traditional social roles and allowed people to find their own place in their family/economy/world. The diversity created by individualism is a powerful thing, and I think we've done well to unleash some of its potential. Can we get all of this individual power working toward a common good? Well, that seems like a whole other issue for a whole other generation to deal with...

and that expanding consciousness also challenged the scientism/materialist mindset (represented here by vandal), as many Awakenings do, as well as traditional religious dogmas.

I won't personally count the fight against science as a victory, in fact I'd say it has turned in to a dangerous subculture championed by hacks like Jenny McCarthy and hucksters selling modern-day snake oil. This has real life consequences when diseases we should have under control break out again because parents don't believe in vaccines. Of course, there are also anti-science zealots on the right who want to eliminate education on biological and cosmological evolution.

However, this subculture remains ineffective in the face of rapid technological progress. Mainstream society has no doubt in science, rather, it sits and waits impatiently for science's newest gadget or breakthrough. A backlash is building against the anti-science movement, and the quacks will wither beneath the evidence-based rage of a rising civic gen.

Looking only at social change neglects this. The backlash was also part of the Awakening from the start, which among other things brought about Reaganomics and its celebration and enabling of greed; but I rather regard the backlash as the counter-awakening, which sought for return of conditions that existed long before the awakening, rather than the Awakening's own legacy. The religious right was another element of this counter-awakening, which was strongest at the end of the 2T.

The celebration of material wealth wasn't ever inherently in conflict with mass perceptions of the awakening. Sure, some people want to expand their consciousness and think outside the box, but a lot really just want to get high and party because they can afford to. In the 80s, the pretense was dropped and cocaine was all the rage. Yeah, those who wanted to challenge their perception could still find psilocybin & LSD, but the mass social movement was toward simpler and more direct party drugs.

To those who live in red states and attend their mega-church religiously, they won't see the Christian side of the awakening as a "counter-awakening." If anything, the counter-culture was still the minority, and it was even the first time in history that an Anglo-American awakening had an alternative to the (still) dominant Christian themes. Relatively speaking, it was a very divided awakening with more secular themes than usual.

Originally Posted by JohnMc82

Well I'm not trying to say what it meant to you or what lessons an individual could potentially learn, I'm just trying to look at what parts our society in general has kept and what parts society has fought against successfully.

OK; it's true that the other parts have been fought against; but many gains of the Awakening's social and political movements I mentioned have stayed with us. Of course, the liberation movements were fiercely resisted too, and successfully in many red states and areas.

There's nothing inherently wrong with progress for individuals. It's probably a good thing that we've challenged traditional social roles and allowed people to find their own place in their family/economy/world. The diversity created by individualism is a powerful thing, and I think we've done well to unleash some of its potential. Can we get all of this individual power working toward a common good? Well, that seems like a whole other issue for a whole other generation to deal with...

Well, and as I said, rev up the Awakening's interests in the common good, as well as that of the new civic generation. Prophets and civics can be a great team in a fourth turning.

I won't personally count the fight against science as a victory, in fact I'd say it has turned in to a dangerous subculture championed by hacks like Jenny McCarthy and hucksters selling modern-day snake oil. This has real life consequences when diseases we should have under control break out again because parents don't believe in vaccines. Of course, there are also anti-science zealots on the right who want to eliminate education on biological and cosmological evolution.

However, this subculture remains ineffective in the face of rapid technological progress. Mainstream society has no doubt in science, rather, it sits and waits impatiently for science's newest gadget or breakthrough. A backlash is building against the anti-science movement, and the quacks will wither beneath the evidence-based rage of a rising civic gen.

It's true that some quackery has grown up around the edges of the anti-science trends during the unravelling. Being against vaccines and teaching creationism were certainly not the interests of the real Awakening's spiritual revolution. Being taken away with tech progress has returned though, that's for sure. That does not mean that the deep resources opened up by the Awakening's movements (some of which have earlier roots as well) are not there for those who decide to look a little deeper for what is there just before their own times, hidden away just beneath the surface in the recent past. There are still magazines and videos around, like the one I just linked to Alex Grey's Chapel. Post 133 above. He encapsulated the Awakening very well in that short video, and he is a great example of the new age renaissance and its contribution. Would that there were dozens more like him. Actually there are, though they haven't built chapels, and aren't as articulate as he.

The celebration of material wealth wasn't ever inherently in conflict with mass perceptions of the awakening. Sure, some people want to expand their consciousness and think outside the box, but a lot really just want to get high and party because they can afford to. In the 80s, the pretense was dropped and cocaine was all the rage. Yeah, those who wanted to challenge their perception could still find psilocybin & LSD, but the mass social movement was toward simpler and more direct party drugs.

To those who live in red states and attend their mega-church religiously, they won't see the Christian side of the awakening as a "counter-awakening." If anything, the counter-culture was still the minority, and it was even the first time in history that an Anglo-American awakening had an alternative to the (still) dominant Christian themes. Relatively speaking, it was a very divided awakening with more secular themes than usual.

It's all in what you decide to focus on from those years. If you want to knock it, there's plenty of resources available. If you want to find keys to a greater life for all of us, that's there in plenty as well. It was more secular, but that meant less captivated by outdated religious tradition, and thus far more progressive and visionary. It was cultural creatives and the spiritual-but-not-religious that made this Awakening.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

That does not mean that the deep resources opened up by the Awakening's movements (some of which have earlier roots as well) are not there for those who decide to look a little deeper for what is there just before their own times

I think this is a good analogy and it really brings us back to the seasons at the "root" of the fractal saeculum.

Some of the awakening's themes came in to full bloom during the summer of love and some of them are still blooming now in the winter of terror and self-inflicted scarcity.

Some of the awakening's themes were just seeds being planted. These haven't really had time to do much except start to grow their first roots. They probably won't even sprout up much until the 1T spring. Some of them probably won't sprout at all. Those that survive will come in to full bloom next awakening, when the next prophets are tending the fields and planting new ideas.

Originally Posted by Eric

Awakening Ideas

Women's Liberation - Almost all of the headwork was done in The Great Power Saeculum, the "2nd Wave of Feminism" added the Awakening's twist which is a nasty combination of post-modern philosophy and individualization/personalization (not individualism, but the idea that people somehow have the right to have things the way they want), rendering it ineffective.

Environmentalism - Same deal. Headwork was done in the Great Power Saeculum, post-mod and individualization ruined it.

Animal Rights - Same.

Ethnic Rights - Was really over and done with by the beginning of the awakening. What continued on was Black Liberation, which went no where afterwards because of post-mod philosophy and individualization created a seperatist sentiment.

The Peace Movement - Was largely driven by people who just didn't want to be drafted, with a small group being truly anti-war, and the anti-war stance is as old as time, but really the last major movements in thought were ideas created in the Great Power Saeculum, yet again, by Anarchists. The modifications to anarchist thought from the Awakening were infusions of, yet again, post-modern philosophy and individualism.

And on and on and on it goes. There was nothing new in the Awakening other than the use of post-modern philosophy and this notion of individualization as a right which more or less poisoned the well of thought in general. This shows in how the 3rd and 4th Ts have shaped.

Unlike the Great Power Saeculum, where you saw workers and women getting rights, and prohibition on the other side or the civil war saeculum where you saw the real birth of industrialization and mass transport and expansion, and the bitter divide of slave states and free states... This Saeculum has shown little to no progress or growth, has managed to have it's participants trip all over themselves which frequently managed to set them back while they claimed it as progress, and has overall just created degeneration by an inability to prioritize (a situation created by individualization).

Gay rights maybe the exception in that it is a new idea, but it's in the same well, getting poisoned by post-modern thought and individualization... Plus I don't think of 1 idea which affects such a small portion of the population as a "mega-awakening."

Originally Posted by Kepi

Women's Liberation - Almost all of the headwork was done in The Great Power Saeculum, the "2nd Wave of Feminism" added the Awakening's twist which is a nasty combination of post-modern philosophy and individualization/personalization (not individualism, but the idea that people somehow have the right to have things the way they want), rendering it ineffective.

Not at all. It was a tremendous liberation which has enabled women to do 100 times more than they ever did before, including work in careers that were never possible before, and to be treated as equals in the household. The entire social role of women was changed. The PBS documentary showed how amazing the liberation movement was in the late 60s, and how fast it caught on.

Environmentalism - Same deal. Headwork was done in the Great Power Saeculum, post-mod and individualization ruined it.

Nothing much had been done before the 60s except to save some national parks. I mentioned all the things that have been done. To dismiss it all like that is just dishonest. Earth Day 1970 was the greatest demonstration of any kind ever in human history.

Animal Rights - Same.

There was no such thing until the Awakening.

Ethnic Rights - Was really over and done with by the beginning of the awakening. What continued on was Black Liberation, which went no where afterwards because of post-mod philosophy and individualization created a separatist sentiment.

No, it elected black leaders to office and redefined what it meant to be black. The civil rights law was only passed once the Awakening began, and the biggest thrust of the movement occurred just months before its official start. The voting rights law was passed after a massive Awakening movement in 1965.

The Peace Movement - Was largely driven by people who just didn't want to be drafted, with a small group being truly anti-war, and the anti-war stance is as old as time, but really the last major movements in thought were ideas created in the Great Power Saeculum, yet again, by Anarchists. The modifications to anarchist thought from the Awakening were infusions of, yet again, post-modern philosophy and individualism.

"Post-modernism" is just a label you paste on to all these movements that means absolutely nothing. What counts is what the movement accomplished, and the liberation it achieved for people. As I said, the peace movement ended the Vietnam War and created what President Bush called a "Vietnam Syndrome," which he broke in 1991. No president can start a war anymore without massive protest here and around the world. And the break out of peace in 1988 is largely due to the beyond war movement of the 1970s that opened communication between the Cold War powers. It was movies like Dr. Strangelove in 1964 and The Russians are Coming in 1966 that broke the Cold War ice. These movies were noticed and applauded in the Kremlin.

And on and on and on it goes. There was nothing new in the Awakening other than the use of post-modern philosophy and this notion of individualization as a right which more or less poisoned the well of thought in general. This shows in how the 3rd and 4th Ts have shaped.

Individualism is not the issue of the Consciousness Revolution Awakening; individualism is the outdated ideology of the romantic era of the 18th and 19th centuries. The issue is the respect due to the human person and the environment, rather than imposed social roles and mechanized, unconscious ways of life. We are not numbers, we are persons. The ideal is interaction of people and their environment, enshrined in the notion of ecology. It is higher consciousness. The Awakening is the Green Revolution and the Green Party values, and genuine new age values of spiritual revival and the new paradigm.

Unlike the Great Power Saeculum, where you saw workers and women getting rights, and prohibition on the other side or the civil war saeculum where you saw the real birth of industrialization and mass transport and expansion, and the bitter divide of slave states and free states... This Saeculum has shown little to no progress or growth, has managed to have it's participants trip all over themselves which frequently managed to set them back while they claimed it as progress, and has overall just created degeneration by an inability to prioritize (a situation created by individualization).

Tell that to the millions of women who can work at careers they want, and not be chained to the kitchen and the bedroom. Tell that to the millions no longer poisoned by pollution in their air and water. Tell that to consumers who can buy cars that don't explode and kill them on the highway. No, you are just wrong, and whoever knocks the Awakening is wrong, if it's as one-sided a view as yours is. And whatever lack of progress happened is because of the resistance to it from the counter-awakening, and due to all the cynics and reactionaries of the third turning era. And to all the bad music from your black wave that has so turned off the well of inspiration among the people.

Gay rights maybe the exception in that it is a new idea, but it's in the same well, getting poisoned by post-modern thought and individualization... Plus I don't think of 1 idea which affects such a small portion of the population as a "mega-awakening."

There is no "mega-awakening," and I am not claiming that our saeculum is one. How many times do I have to repeat myself to you?

If you are upset about the lack of progress in the last 30 years, as I am too, then I tell you again, and I want you to listen up. You need to get positive, push for your ideals, and not knock, denigrate and ignore the achievements those who came before you who pushed for progress too. Join forces with us, and we will go far in this 4T.

Originally Posted by JohnMc82

I think this is a good analogy and it really brings us back to the seasons at the "root" of the fractal saeculum.

Some of the awakening's themes came in to full bloom during the summer of love and some of them are still blooming now in the winter of terror and self-inflicted scarcity.

Some of the awakening's themes were just seeds being planted. These haven't really had time to do much except start to grow their first roots. They probably won't even sprout up much until the 1T spring. Some of them probably won't sprout at all. Those that survive will come in to full bloom next awakening, when the next prophets are tending the fields and planting new ideas.

That is good. Kepi maybe just needs a little more patience; growth often takes some time after the seeds are planted. The Green Revolution reaches full bloom only in 2047, according to my cosmic sources.

Originally Posted by Eric

If you are upset by the lack of progress in the last 30 years...

Last 30 years? Nothing's been done in the last 50! You want the last major accoplishment in social progress, it's called The Civil Rights Act of 1964. And it'd have been fine if we took 20 years to regroup and make new ideas, but that's not what happened. It was millions of people taking a mental holiday for 20 years and then coming together in absolute disorganized, inefficient failure. Nothing more, nothing less. It's been social degeneration for 50 years, and economic degeneration for 60.

The insistance that we paint a happy face over 20 years to appease a generation grown children who don't have to suffer what their failings have wrought so they can continue to feel good about themselves is not something I'm interested in.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

growth often takes some time after the seeds are planted. The Green Revolution reaches full bloom only in 2047, according to my cosmic sources.

Even without a cosmic calendar we know that the civics will be between about ~45-65 at that age, so they'll be in a position to make a lot of decisions about policy. It makes sense that a lot of them will be working hard at scientific solutions to environmental and resource problems through the 1T and into the early 2T. Then, with those materialistic and scientific questions out of the way, the awakening would be free again to ask questions more along the line of why and how we live, rather than how we stay alive and what it takes to maintain a certain standard of living.

Originally Posted by Kepi

Last 30 years? Nothing's been done in the last 50! You want the last major accoplishment in social progress, it's called The Civil Rights Act of 1964. And it'd have been fine if we took 20 years to regroup and make new ideas, but that's not what happened. It was millions of people taking a mental holiday for 20 years and then coming together in absolute disorganized, inefficient failure. Nothing more, nothing less. It's been social degeneration for 50 years, and economic degeneration for 60.

The insistence that we paint a happy face over 20 years to appease a generation of grown children who don't have to suffer what their failings have wrought so they can continue to feel good about themselves is not something I'm interested in.

You'd rather keep your prejudices and narrow-mindedness about boomers and the last awakening, rather than deal with the errors in your thinking that I pointed out; I see that.

If you don't think protecting our environment and our products and opening our society to women is anything, I shudder what you would think is accomplishment and "new ideas" if we have progress again.

I imagine our view of the last 50 years might have been a little different, if it were not for Katharine Harris and Sandra Day O'Connor in December 2000. But, their sabotage, and their failure, has amounted to a failure of an entire generation to produce an effective leader, at least so far.

Originally Posted by Eric

If you don't think...

The awakening mentality has not produced an effective means by which to protect the environment. Infact, the demand for individualization and personalization has made it far, far worse. Awakening thought has only promoted conspicuous consumption and demanded that said conspicuous consumption to be as inefficient as possible because now everything needs to come customized.

The awakening didn't liberate women, it liberated a few women at the cost of practically enslaving the millions of others by forcing them to work to compete with the few who wanted that. It's caused overcompetition, devaluation of wages by overparticpation in the labor force, and the excess pollution from all those cars, all that extra power usage.

And how do I know this narrative, and not your narrative is correct? Because in order foe "millions of women" to have fulfilling careers, there'd have to be millions of fulfilling careers and there aren't. There are a few fulfilling careers. In order to save the environment, we'll need to take cars off the road, not put more on.

It's pure and simple failure through an inability to produce effective ideas, and just trying to modify the old ideas with a new trite, selfish, and meaningless philosophy.

I apologize for this very late response. I missed this entirely.

Originally Posted by Mikebert

I can see this. But my question remains. If regular turnings cannot be detected, then why should micro-turnings be any more visible? And if turnings can be detected (which I believe must be the case if the S&H concept is valid), than how is it that different people come up with different turnings when looking at the some piece of history outside of the canonical saeculum? For example right now I've starting a thread on the pre-1435 saeculum in an effort ot establish a consensus on the saeculum back to the early 12th century for which I believe sufficent history is known with whihc to make a determination.

It may simply be the case that we're turning over relatively new ground, and the tools are a bit primitive. as a simplar though unrelated example, look at the entire field of psychology, and note the wildly divergent "diagnoses" offered in many very famous cases in the past. In fact, some have now been found to be anomolous (too little data?), and others have converged on a single solution. But the original work was all over the board.

But sometimes it's still hard to be certain in that field, becasue the evidence can be subtle. History has the same issues, only moreso: too much data and much of it conflicts.

Originally Posted by Mikebert ...

I hope that Grey Badger gets involved because she has written before on Medieval history and has an intriguing idea (see a couple of posts above). Chas has already contributed and for anyone else who has interest, please join.

I'm still of the opinion that more dogmatic socieities are less susceptable to the saecular cycle ... though certainly not immune. Religous dogma can alter the impacts of the social cycle, though the Western social system is not as much affected as some in the East. In the West, the church has been political from its inception. Still, I'm not sure how much impact church dogma had on the pace of the cycle, which is much more rapid in these less dogmatic times.. Is dogma a social retardant? It's possible, but I'm probably not the one to puzzle through it.