Well Chas, I'd say you're on the right track here. Yes, the Boomers may be seen as reconciling "something", but they were the "footsoldiers" of "The Dream"; The Silents were the real leaders. MLK Jr, the Beatniks, and most 60's musicians born pre-1945 were the generals. Silents were the ones who voted for JFK, not Boomers(they were too young). Silents were the leaders of the "non-violent" Civil Rights Movement, not Boomers.

From my Xer POV, what becomes problematic is that the Boomers mistakenly "feel" that they understand that Dream and that the rest of us have to live in that World that they create: Ends justifying the Means. That is at the heart of Collectivism whether from the Left or Right.

Economic Collectivism and Social Collectivism have much in common. Nazi Germany and Communist China were both Totalitarian States. Both were forms of Collectivism. Bullies must be defeated whether Social(the Religious Right) or Economic(Progressives) "Vive la difference"!

The Nomad Archetype fundamentally rejects these Social/Economic Philosophies b/c they are based in a complete lack of respect for "Individual Rights". Humanism and Individual Rights are not synonymous, thus the difference between the American Rev and French Rev Crises. Don't defend "the little guy", defend the "underdog". Mobs are made up of "the little guy" and can become as oppressive as an Elitist Class.

But Xers aren't the end-all-be-all either. As the generals of the Crisis we will most likely push our Milly "footsoldiers" too far. That's when the Gray Champion(Prophet) re-appears to remind us all to have Compassion.

The Apollonian/Dionysian Paradigm was presented to many of us Xers pretty early in our lives by the Canadian band: Rush. Check out Side 1 from "Hemispheres"(1977).

Part 1:http://www.youtube.com/embed/kNoR6VSP4wY
Part 2:http://www.youtube.com/embed/Fq7hNJvfyUs

Cygnus X-1, Book II Hemispheres lyrics

Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

I. prelude
When our weary world was young
The struggle of the ancients first began
The gods of love and reason
Sought alone to rule the fate of man

They battled through the ages
But still neither force would yield
The people were divided
Every soul a battlefield ...

Ii. apollo: bringer of wisdom
'i bring truth and understanding
I bring wit, and wisdom fair
Precious gifts beyond compare
We can build a world of wonder
I can make you all aware'

'i will find you food and shelter
Show you fire to keep you warm
Through the endless winter storm
You can live in grace and comfort
In the world that you transform'

The people were delighted
Coming forth to claim their prize
They ran to build their cities
And converse among the wise

But one day the streets fell silent
Yet they knew not what was wrong
The urge to build these fine things
Seemed not to be so strong

The wise men were consulted
And the bridge of death was crossed
In quest of dionysus
To find out what they had lost ...

Iii. dionysus: bringer of love
'i bring love to give you solace
In the darkness of the night
In the heart's eternal light
You need only trust your feelings
Only love can steer you right'

'i bring laughter, I bring music
I bring joy and I bring tears
I will soothe your primal fears
Throw off those chains of reason
And your prison disappears'

The cities were abandoned
And the forests echoed song
They danced and lived as brothers
They knew love could not be wrong

Food and wine they had aplenty
And they slept beneath the stars
The people were contented
And the gods watched from afar

But the winter fell upon them
And it caught them unprepared
Bringing wolves and cold starvation
And the hearts of men despaired ...

Iv. armageddon: the battle of heart and mind
The universe divided
As the heart and mind collided
With the people left unguided
For so many troubled years
In a cloud of doubts and fears
Their world was torn asunder
Into hollow hemispheres

Some fought themselves, some fought each other
Most just followed one another
Lost and aimless like their brothers
For their hearts were so unclear
And the truth could not appear
Their spirits were divided
Into blinded hemispheres

Some who did not fight
Brought tales of old to light
My 'rocinante' sailed by night(cool Don Quixote reference)!
On her final flight

To the heart of cygnus' fearsome force
We set our course
Spiralled through that timeless space
To this immortal place

V. cygnus: bringer of balance
I have memory and awareness
But I have no shape or form
As a disembodied spirit
I am dead and yet unborn
I have passed into olympus
As was told in tales of old
To the city of immortals
Marble white and purest gold

I see the gods in battle rage on high
Thunderbolts across the sky
I cannot move, I cannot hide
I feel a silent scream begin inside

Then all at once the chaos ceased
A stillness fell, a sudden peace
The warriors felt my silent cry
And stayed their struggle, mystified

Apollo was atonished
Dionysus thought me mad
But they heard my story further
And they wondered, and were sad

Looking down from olympus
On a world of doubt and fear
Its surface splintered
Into sorry hemispheres

They sat a while in silence
Then they turned at last to me
'we will call you cygnus,
The God of balance you shall be'

The sphere: a kind of dream
We can walk our road together
If our goals are all the same
We can run alone and free
If we pursue a different aim

Let the truth of love be lighted
Let the love of truth shine clear
Sensibility
Armed with Sense and liberty(Jane Austin reference/Pairs of Opposites).
With the heart and mind united
In a single perfect sphere

Does this describe the Archetypes' Roles in a Saeculum, or what?!

Just as this battle of Mind/Heart holds true for the Journey of Self-Discovery of the Individual, it would be safe to induce that the same occurs w/the Archetypes. It would be productive to experience and understand BOTH perspectives; Thus we are made "whole" again to repeat the process...."with the heart and mind united in a single perfect SPHERE"!

PoC67

PS: Side 2 of "Hemispheres" is worth checking-out as well. Neil Peart(their drummer and main lyricist) is a major influence to many of us Xers. Circumstances, La Villa Strangiato(listen for the homage to Raymond Scott's "Powerhouse")
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xee...rho_music">The
, and The Trees(an Anti-Collectivist commentary) are all fantastic as well, IMO.

If this was facebook, I would give the above the "like" button.

Originally Posted by Chas'88

Thinking of it in the Apollonian and Dionysian terms I've been reading about in my Theatre class; Advancement would be Apollonian--reaching for new ideals. Atonement would be reaching for the ultimate catharsis in order to express and let go all that was done in the previous Advancement phase. Consider the Atonement phase as a typical human response to the previous Advancement phase--making what was achieved in the Advancement phase more liveable for people;

Both are needed in terms of human society. Without Atonement we'd continue to push development without concern for the cost to humanity--reaching for some ideal to shape the world, and devastating anything that gets in its path--imagine the Holocaust. Without Advancement we'd constantly be stuck in an Emo-like trance, trying to feel alive, and letting the world arround us collapse and be destroyed--imagine Rome burning.

In light of this, Boomers were never meant to build some grand ideal society--they were and are supposed to make what their parents built liveable, more humane, and reconcile whatever wrongs were comitted previously. Their job is to temper and atone for the misconduct done in pursuing the ideal society that was built in the last Advancement saeculum. Our Civil War could be said to be another such cathartic experience where we came to terms with the destruction of the previous more aristocratic way of life--as the Confederates came to symbolize.

So we've been judging the Boomers incorrectly. They're not here to lead us into some Brave New World--they're here possibly to reconcile the destruction of one way of life for another.

~Chas'88

I can see this dynamic quite clearly in religion. Advancement is the Humanistic 'Salvation by Good Works". Atonement is the the hyper-religious OCD guy constantly going "Forgive me, Father, for I have SINNED!!!" A good example of this is the self-flagellating and similar things that became popular in the Late Medieval Saeculum and the 4T proceeding it following the Black Death. Gruesome depictions of Jesus suffering on the cross also became very popular.

Originally Posted by Odin

I can see this dynamic quite clearly in religion. Advancement is the Humanistic 'Salvation by Good Works". Atonement is the the hyper-religious OCD guy constantly going "Forgive me, Father, for I have SINNED!!!" A good example of this is the self-flagellating and similar things that became popular in the Late Medieval Saeculum and the 4T proceeding it following the Black Death. Gruesome depictions of Jesus suffering on the cross also became very popular.

Good call, I don't see the Christian boomers falling into asceticism though. The main doctrine of the church today is "Salvation by faith alone." which isn't about good works and a lot of churches seem to over emphasize faith to the point if a faith healer can't heal a person they can blame them "Well, he didn't have enough faith." So people who believe this sit around trying to believe more so they can accomplish more.
Now there are a lot of guiltrippy sermons and most of these are from boomer preachers in my experience. They start talking about something completely normal that may or may not actually be bad, but normal and try to get the congregation to feel bad about it. Emotional responses is what preachers are really after or at least that's how it was last time I was in the states.

Originally Posted by pizal81

Good call, I don't see the Christian boomers falling into asceticism though. The main doctrine of the church today is "Salvation by faith alone." which isn't about good works and a lot of churches seem to over emphasize faith to the point if a faith healer can't heal a person they can blame them "Well, he didn't have enough faith." So people who believe this sit around trying to believe more so they can accomplish more.
Now there are a lot of guiltrippy sermons and most of these are from boomer preachers in my experience. They start talking about something completely normal that may or may not actually be bad, but normal and try to get the congregation to feel bad about it. Emotional responses is what preachers are really after or at least that's how it was last time I was in the states.

I was talking about this with my wife, the other day. I think you can also associate this with the generation in power to. I mean, my GI grandparents, where all about work, duty, etc. The Millennials are probably going to be the same...while the Boomers put more emphasis on personal and inner theology. Not sure what Xer's take. Sometimes, I get the impression that they avoided it all. The silents may be similiar to GI's and/ or more about the appearance.

Originally Posted by pizal81

Good call, I don't see the Christian boomers falling into asceticism though. The main doctrine of the church today is "Salvation by faith alone." which isn't about good works and a lot of churches seem to over emphasize faith to the point if a faith healer can't heal a person they can blame them "Well, he didn't have enough faith." So people who believe this sit around trying to believe more so they can accomplish more.
Now there are a lot of guiltrippy sermons and most of these are from boomer preachers in my experience. They start talking about something completely normal that may or may not actually be bad, but normal and try to get the congregation to feel bad about it. Emotional responses is what preachers are really after or at least that's how it was last time I was in the states.

I think it has to do with the type of theology of different religious beliefs. Some denominations focus more on guilt while others focus more on grace. In my church the message of most of the sermons are basically, be kind to others, be giving and do not judge those around you because that's what Jesus preached. I never ever in my entire life, heard a sermon in my denomination with the theme, you are a sinner and you better get your act together or you are going to hell. Through out my life there have been civics, silents, boomers and Xers ministers in the churches and the denomination I've belonged too.

Originally Posted by millennialX

I was talking about this with my wife, the other day. I think you can also associate this with the generation in power to. I mean, my GI grandparents, where all about work, duty, etc. The Millennials are probably going to be the same...while the Boomers put more emphasis on personal and inner theology. Not sure what Xer's take. Sometimes, I get the impression that they avoided it all. The silents may be similiar to GI's and/ or more about the appearance.

Actually, generation X is more involved in the church than the boomers. Right now the boomers are in control of most churches. I think X'ers really focus on working with the underbelly of society. They are the ones who go to the inner city and help the homeless. And true X'ers want to better the community they are in. (Now that is just focusing on the good) The church is generally behind the rest of the country as far as who is in charge. Many churches the leadership is called elders so Silents and some GIs are influential as well.

Back on topic. Odin mentioned the atonement and advancement cycle in religion. Now the GIs would have had the Missionary gens values passed down to them. We get the boomers version anyone who deviates isn't mainstream.
So was the red awakening under the atonement end of the cycle? I really don't know they aren't focused on "good works". As far as I call tell it's like a light atonement awakening. They will beat themselves up about things that are nearly inevitable. I really don't see a lot of Christian Boomers distraught over their sins.

Originally Posted by ASB65

I think it has to do with the type of theology of different religious beliefs. Some denominations focus more on guilt while others focus more on grace. In my church the message of most of the sermons are basically, be kind to others, be giving and do not judge those around you because that's what Jesus preached. I never ever in my entire life, heard a sermon in my denomination with the theme, you are a sinner and you better get your act together or you are going to hell. Through out my life there have been civics, silents, boomers and Xers ministers in the churches and the denomination I've belonged too.

The whole "sinners needing to get your act together or you'll burn in the eternal fires of damnation" is what was popular in 1690s Puritan Massachusetts. They believed that through public humiliation (a kind of catharsis in and of itself) that people were purged of their sin.

And 320 years later...

The Salem Witch Trials was a small American Catharsis for the 17th Century, which by my counts had to have been a Dionysian time. But then of course it was followed by a war between English North America and French North America...

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by Chas'88

The whole "sinners needing to get your act together or you'll burn in the eternal fires of damnation" is what was popular in 1690s Puritan Massachusetts. They believed that through public humiliation (a kind of catharsis in and of itself) that people were purged of their sin.

And 320 years later...

The Salem Witch Trials was a small American Catharsis for the 17th Century, which by my counts had to have been a Dionysian time. But then of course it was followed by a war between English North America and French North America...

~Chas'88

But weren't those guys CIVICS? Wow, need to rethink my thoughts.

Originally Posted by ASB65

I think it has to do with the type of theology of different religious beliefs. Some denominations focus more on guilt while others focus more on grace. In my church the message of most of the sermons are basically, be kind to others, be giving and do not judge those around you because that's what Jesus preached. I never ever in my entire life, heard a sermon in my denomination with the theme, you are a sinner and you better get your act together or you are going to hell. Through out my life there have been civics, silents, boomers and Xers ministers in the churches and the denomination I've belonged too.

Yeah, I was talking about what is generally mainstream. I don't think a lot of places are teaching hell fire and brimstone as much as trying to get people to feel bad about stuff they may not even need to feel bad about.

Here is an example. There is a teaching going around that holding hands is the beginning of sexual contact and shouldn't be done before marriage. That isn't mainstream, but it's there. Some people are waiting till their married to even kiss. Now this stuff is really conservative, but it highlights some of the stuff I've seen within different denominations. There are always going to be extremes, but this stuff isn't just on the fringe. Just check out the book "I kissed dating, Goodbye". I think it sold pretty well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Kissed_Dating_Goodbye

Originally Posted by millennialX

But weren't those guys CIVICS? Wow, need to rethink my thoughts.

The leaders of the colony were Elder Prophets believing that Satan was conducting a war against Puritanism. That they had to get the girls to every town to fight against the devil. And they weren't liking the encrochment of the new colonial charter which established the backwoods Indian Fighter and Adventurer William Phips as the governor (a definite Nomad with an agenda more concerned about Indians and French-America than witches... so he let the elder Puritans Prophets have their witch trials...until they began to get out of hand.)

You had a mid-life demigod-ish Nomad priest who was trying religion after failing at having been a plantation owner in Barbados. He wasn't accepted by most of the village as the right minister, because half of the village worshiped in the town. If he wasn't a sucess here, he was going to be without a way to provide for his family--he was in a word: desperate. The Putnams, who also were desperate Nomads, were seeing their grandfather's farming legacy slipping away as a new merchantile culture was rising in the town. Their grandfather had established the family as a leading figure of the village, and now his estate had been split up amongst his descendents to the point where they couldn't expect to support another generation. And land disputes with neighbors didn't help matters either.

And you had a bunch of young Civic girls worked up into a phrenzy, believing that they'd go to hell just for playing a silly "fortune telling" game that would "predict" who their husband would be. Stick a feather in the yolk of an egg, swirl it around and the shape that the yolk takes when it stops spinning, will determine the occupation of your future husband. Both the Nomads and the Civics took advantage of each other's fears and And they stuck together in their story and actions with no dissention.

The victims? Mostly Nomads who were represenative of the other side of the culture war, those who worshiped in the town, opposed the Putnam control of the village, and were more merchantile-leaning. There also were the few quite elderly Artists who had lasted this long--like Rebecca Nurse--who got accused of witchcraft despite the fact that they'd followed the rules all their life, and Rebecca Nurse in particular was called out upon mostly because of her merchantile-leaning children and grandchildren.

What made this all possible? Fear stoked by being on the frontier of a colony that wasn't even recognized formally by the British crown. They'd just recovered from an Indian War against "King Phillip" about a decade earlier, and Indian raids and attacks were still occuring.

Sounds like a Crisis combo to me. A dark combo that shows some of the darker side of the generational archetypes.

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by Chas'88

In light of this, Boomers were never meant to build some grand ideal society--they were and are supposed to make what their parents built liveable, more humane, and reconcile whatever wrongs were comitted previously. Their job is to temper and atone for the misconduct done in pursuing the ideal society that was built in the last Advancement saeculum. Our Civil War could be said to be another such cathartic experience where we came to terms with the destruction of the previous more aristocratic way of life--as the Confederates came to symbolize.

So we've been judging the Boomers incorrectly. They're not here to lead us into some Brave New World--they're here possibly to reconcile the destruction of one way of life for another.

~Chas'88

You know, this sounds more like Adaptives to me. And indeed, they were the leaders and idea generators of most of the Awakening movements -- civil rights, women's rights, consumer, environmental . . . think MLK, Jesse Jackson, Julian Bond, Gloria Steinhem, Alan Alda, Ralph Nader, Barney Frank, Rachel Carson, plus we've had whole threads on the music (Beatles, Dylan, Marvin Gaye, Joni Mitchell . . .) and writing (Ginsburg, Kesey, Roth, Vonnegut, Pynchon, Kerouac). There's also filmmaking and acting -- all have been heavily influenced by the Silent generation.

I think the Hindu gods may be helpful here in addition to the Greek:

Brahma -- creator -- Civic; Creation phases -- High and Awakening

Vishnu -- sustainer -- Adaptive/Nomad;

Shiva -- destroyer -- Idealist; Destruction phases -- Unraveling and Crisis

Really, what I think the role of the Idealist generation is to tear down the old order to make way for something new. Think of the difference between MLK and Malcolm X or Gloria Steinhem and Andrea Dworkin. MLK wanted to make existing institutions more fair and humane, while Malcolm wanted to tear the whole thing down and start over. Idealists are a transformative generation, but there is no transformation without destruction.

The Sustainer role is to keep the Creation or Destruction from going too far by tamping down Civic hubris in a 2T and putting the breaks on Idealist destruction in a 4T

Originally Posted by Neisha '67

You know, this sounds more like Adaptives to me. And indeed, they were the leaders and idea generators of most of the Awakening movements -- civil rights, women's rights, consumer, environmental . . . think MLK, Jesse Jackson, Julian Bond, Gloria Steinhem, Alan Alda, Ralph Nader, Barney Frank, Rachel Carson, plus we've had whole threads on the music (Beatles, Dylan, Marvin Gaye, Joni Mitchell . . .) and writing (Ginsburg, Kesey, Roth, Vonnegut, Pynchon, Kerouac). There's also filmmaking and acting -- all have been heavily influenced by the Silent generation.

I think the Hindu gods may be helpful here in addition to the Greek:

Brahma -- creator -- Civic; Creation phases -- High and Awakening

Vishnu -- sustainer -- Adaptive/Nomad;

Shiva -- destroyer -- Idealist; Destruction phases -- Unraveling and Crisis

Really, what I think the role of the Idealist generation is to tear down the old order to make way for something new. Think of the difference between MLK and Malcolm X or Gloria Steinhem and Andrea Dworkin. MLK wanted to make existing institutions more fair and humane, while Malcolm wanted to tear the whole thing down and start over. Idealists are a transformative generation, but there is no transformation without destruction.

The Sustainer role is to keep the Creation or Destruction from going too far by tamping down Civic hubris in a 2T and putting the breaks on Idealist destruction in a 4T

Yes, during an Apollonian-reason driven stage I'd definitely agree--that's when the most advancements would occur and the largest chance for structural transformation and growth will occur.

However in a cathartic driven Dionysian-emotion driven stage of society... the destruction of Idealists doesnt lead to much else than fiddle music while Rome burns. How badly it burns is the question.

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by Chas'88

......................

... Nietzche noticed these two opposing forces in ancient Greek theatre (hence the names) when looking closely at the developments within Greek theatre. He said in the beginning Greek theatre contained both the Apollonian and the Dionysian and they had their equal parts: the main characters represented the Apollonian ideals of society, while the Choruses responded with Dionysian emotion. The early Greek tragedies by Aeschuylus which employs the energies of the Chorus as a responsive emotional aspect that responds with song and dance to what the characters do (and are powerless to do anything beyond emotionally responding) is an example of Dionysian theatre to its fullest. What upset Nietzche was that Euripides decided to start having the Chorus interact as characters with the main characters of the tragedies, thus beginning the trend of Apollonizing the Chorus and thus distancing the audience, until finally you get to the Comedies where the Choruses are really characters in their own right rather than characters who exist to provide emotional responses through which the audience can respond and thus connect to the Apollonian main characters.

In general here's the quick run down of what each extreme of theatre values:

Apollonian - Cornielle, Farquhar, Shaw, Strindberg, Ibsen
Educate the audience
Enforce a strict sense of genres
Good are rewarded, evil are punished
Present the World as it should be
Have a distinct sense of class & social structure - punish those who threaten to break the established social order
Well-made Play - one location, within 24 hours

Dionysian: Shakespeare, Lope de Vega, Victor Hugo, Edward Albee
Represent the World as it is
Mix genres
Reward or express abnormalities to the social structure
Appeal and search for a higher more universal truth
Social order and class doesn't exist and reflect how people actually talk
Various and different Locations, large expanse of time, sometime spanning years...

That's what I can think off of the top of my head right now.

~Chas'88

How about Prometheus/Epimetheus? I tried to send a PM on this but it disappeared into the Ether somewhere(very frustrating). Check out Bernard Stiegler Technics(techne/techniques):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Stiegler

and Antigone:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigone_(Sophocles)

Man I've got a lot to comment on this! Do these connections never CEASE?!

PoC67

PS: If you be mad, be gone: if you have reason, be brief. Twelfth Night

I tried to be brief, but being the common definition of Epimetheus/Nomad of stupid(I prefer the Tarot's Fool #0), it's difficult to stop.

Antigone=John Galt? Who is John Galt?(ha!) Funny that Prometheus and Epimetheus are the "Sons of Atlas"! "Antigone Shrugged"?

If Epimetheus is representative of leading man back to "hands-on" knowledge, could we also surmise that "adversity" might be Necessary for GROWTH. Protection from CONFLICT/Adversity only delays that Necessary Growth?

Maybe we're relying a little too much on our technological Progress(?). It's become difficult to do work on a car anymore(other than change a head lamp). What happens if this Internet-y/Cell Phone-thing fails?!

Originally Posted by TimWalker

I imagine that an Xer led 4T would not be part of either the advencement or the atonement paradign - it would be a period of Pragmatic Problem Solving. (Would the 1T be pagadign free?)

Pragmatic Problem-Solving? Definitely!

The 4T Conflict Resolution is led by the Nomad(Guided by Elderhood Prophets). The Institutions created are happily managed by the Hero, but are too confining for the Artist during the High. The Artists put up with it until THEIR "footsoldiers"(the next Prophet Archetype) demands the move back into "The Spiritual" during the Awakening, and Nobody watches the Store and lets the whole thing "go to pot" in the Unraveling.

Round and Round we go; Spiritual to Physical to Spiritual...Meta-Physical to Concrete to Meta-Physical....Feeling to Thought to Feeling to Thought..............etc., etc., etc.(with Yul Brenner "King and I" voice)

Apollo and Dionysus are the Polar Opposites; Promethius and Epimethius the movements between the two. Page 74 of T4T has the heading "Temperaments and Archetypes". The first comparison is Associated Deity. I hate saying it but I will: It appears to be incorrect.

Here's why:

Epimethius is correctly a Nomad.

Apollo "should"(hate that word) be the Hero/Civic, Prometheus the Artist, and Dionysus the Prophet.

Apollo is criticized for a lack of Feeling(Hero/Civic); Dionysus for a lack of Reason(pragmatic operationalization of "vision")(Prophet). Prometheus' "fire" could be interpreted as Emotion/Passion, Will, Enlightenment, "a gift from the gods"(Artist).

Hesiod and Aeschylus had differing interpretations; Aeschylus' "Prometheus Bound" holds more Natural Truth IMO.

PoC67

PS: Of course I could be Wr-rr-rr....Wr-r-rrrrrr.......uh, ....Incorrect!

Originally Posted by princeofcats67

Pragmatic Problem-Solving? Definitely!

The 4T Conflict Resolution is led by the Nomad(Guided by Elderhood Prophets). The Institutions created are happily managed by the Hero, but are too confining for the Artist during the High. The Artists put up with it until THEIR "footsoldiers"(the next Prophet Archetype) demands the move back into "The Spiritual" during the Awakening, and Nobody watches the Store and lets the whole thing "go to pot" in the Unraveling.

Round and Round we go; Spiritual to Physical to Spiritual...Meta-Physical to Concrete to Meta-Physical....Feeling to Thought to Feeling to Thought..............etc., etc., etc.(with Yul Brenner "King and I" voice)

Apollo and Dionysus are the Polar Opposites; Promethius and Epimethius the movements between the two. Page 74 of T4T has the heading "Tempermaments and Archetypes". The first comparison is Associated Deity. I hate saying it but I will: It appears to be incorrect.

Here's why:

Epimethius is correctly a Nomad.

Apollo "should"(hate that word) be the Hero/Civic, Prometheus the Artist, and Dionysus the Prophet.

Apollo is criticized for a lack of Feeling(Hero/Civic); Dionysus for a lack of Reason(pragmatic operationalization of "vision")(Prophet). Prometheus' "fire" could be interpreted as Emotion/Passion, Will, Enlightenment, "a gift from the gods"(Artist).

Hesiod and Aeschylus had differing interpretations; Aeschylus' "Prometheus Bound" holds more Natural Truth IMO.

PoC67

PS: Of course I could be Wr-rr-rr....Wr-r-rrrrrr.......uh, ....Incorrect!

Tybalt, it's good to have you back.

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by Chas'88

Thinking of it in the Apollonian and Dionysian terms I've been reading about in my Theatre class; Advancement would be Apollonian--reaching for new ideals. Atonement would be reaching for the ultimate catharsis in order to express and let go all that was done in the previous Advancement phase. Consider the Atonement phase as a typical human response to the previous Advancement phase--making what was achieved in the Advancement phase more liveable for people;

Both are needed in terms of human society. Without Atonement we'd continue to push development without concern for the cost to humanity--reaching for some ideal to shape the world, and devastating anything that gets in its path--imagine the Holocaust. Without Advancement we'd constantly be stuck in an Emo-like trance, trying to feel alive, and letting the world arround us collapse and be destroyed--imagine Rome burning.

In light of this, Boomers were never meant to build some grand ideal society--they were and are supposed to make what their parents built liveable, more humane, and reconcile whatever wrongs were comitted previously. Their job is to temper and atone for the misconduct done in pursuing the ideal society that was built in the last Advancement saeculum. Our Civil War could be said to be another such cathartic experience where we came to terms with the destruction of the previous more aristocratic way of life--as the Confederates came to symbolize.

So we've been judging the Boomers incorrectly. They're not here to lead us into some Brave New World--they're here possibly to reconcile the destruction of one way of life for another.

~Chas'88

I thought that was the Silent Generation's job!

Originally Posted by pizal81

Good call, I don't see the Christian boomers falling into asceticism though. The main doctrine of the church today is "Salvation by faith alone." which isn't about good works and a lot of churches seem to over emphasize faith to the point if a faith healer can't heal a person they can blame them "Well, he didn't have enough faith." So people who believe this sit around trying to believe more so they can accomplish more.
Now there are a lot of guiltrippy sermons and most of these are from boomer preachers in my experience. They start talking about something completely normal that may or may not actually be bad, but normal and try to get the congregation to feel bad about it. Emotional responses is what preachers are really after or at least that's how it was last time I was in the states.

Yeah. Well, the Great Plague threw the entire medieval world into shock, and what emerged on the other side, I'm noticing, could actually be called "postmedieval" in the same way our own time can be called "postmodern" for historian's definitions of modern (i.e. Shakespeare wrote in Early Modern English. Can we understand him today? Noo .... could he understand Chaucer? Barely.... could Chaucer understand Alfred the Great? Nooo...)

WWI had the same effect on us culturally. The old order received its death blow.

Originally Posted by The Grey Badger

I thought that was the Silent Generation's job!

I'm looking at how Katharsis would be achieved--which is the focus of the Dionysian.

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by Chas'88

I'm looking at how Katharsis would be achieved--which is the focus of the Dionysian.

~Chas'88

But, aren't Idealists a Dionysian generation that sets the tone during Unravelings and dominates the early part of Crises?

And Civics are an Apollan generation that sets the tone during Highs and dominates the early part of Awakenings?

That's why I like the Creator-Sustainer-Destroyer archetypes as well.

Highs and Awakenings are institution building phases where the Civic Apollan-Creator worldview comes into play, and then gets overripe during the Awakening, and squished a bit by Adaptive Sustainers who remind everyone that people are involved. Also, during the High, Civics are held back by elder Nomad Sustainers.

Unravelings and Crises are transformative phases where the Idealist Dionysian-Destroyer worldview comes into play, but during the Unraveling is kept in check by elder Adaptive Sustainers. The dance of chaos threatens to spin out of control during the Crisis, but things are held in place by mid-life Nomad Sustainers.

I'm thinking we get some Katharsis during the Crisis, which is when what isn't working is burned away and things are transformed, but not so much that chaos reigns, at least not if Nomads do their part.

Originally Posted by Neisha '67

But, aren't Idealists a Dionysian generation that sets the tone during Unravelings and dominates the early part of Crises?

And Civics are an Apollan generation that sets the tone during Highs and dominates the early part of Awakenings?

That's why I like the Creator-Sustainer-Destroyer archetypes as well.

Highs and Awakenings are institution building phases where the Civic Apollan-Creator worldview comes into play, and then gets overripe during the Awakening, and squished a bit by Adaptive Sustainers who remind everyone that people are involved. Also, during the High, Civics are held back by elder Nomad Sustainers.

Unravelings and Crises are transformative phases where the Idealist Dionysian-Destroyer worldview comes into play, but during the Unraveling is kept in check by elder Adaptive Sustainers. The dance of chaos threatens to spin out of control during the Crisis, but things are held in place by mid-life Nomad Sustainers.

I'm thinking we get some Katharsis during the Crisis, which is when what isn't working is burned away and things are transformed, but not so much that chaos reigns, at least not if Nomads do their part.

Yes, but if there are alternating paradigms where one is focused on more than the other, then Alternating sets of Generations are programmed in certain ways.

For example if this entire saeculum is Dionysian, that would mean each generation in it is looking for some sort of Katharsis--even Millies.

Maybe I'm not being clear. Here's what I'm seeing:

Great Power Saeculum:

Missionary - Apollonian Idealists (Apollo/Dionysus)

GI - Apollonian Civics (In your terms Apollo/Apollo; the epitome of Apollo)

Millennial Saeculum:

Boom - Dionysian Idealists (Dionysus/Dionysus)
Millie - Dionysian Civics (Dionysus/Apollo)

~Chas'88

Random thoughts:

Don’t know what to make of this Dionysus/Apollo stuff. It’s a little esoteric, but I try to follow.

I wanted to comment on nomads and prophets, in that the nomad rejection of prophets foreshadows the next awakening. That is, the Lost anti-advancement rejection of Missionary values was ultimately unsuccessful, with the Lost finally sacrificing for the sake of advancement. Later, however, the Boomers successfully replaced the atonement paradigm, later represented by the GIs.

Generational alignments of advancement cycle (I could be totally wrong!)

Missionary Awakening:
Advancement – Missionary
Transitioning - Progressive
Atonement – Gilded, Lost

WWI/Temperance:
Advancement – Progressive, Missionary, GI
Atonement – Gilded, Lost

Great Depression/WWII:
Advancement – Progressive, Missionary, GI, Silent
Transitioning – Lost

American High:
Advancement – Missionary, Lost, GI, Silent
Atonement – Boomer

Consciousness Revolution:
Advancement: Lost, GI, Xer
Transition: Silent
Atonement: Boomer

Culture Wars:
Advancement: GI, Xer
Atonement: Silent, Boomer, Millennial

The Great Crisis:
Transitioning: Xer
Atonement: Silent, Boomer, Millennial, Homelander

Originally Posted by JDW

Random thoughts:

Don’t know what to make of this Dionysus/Apollo stuff. It’s a little esoteric, but I try to follow.

I wanted to comment on nomads and prophets, in that the nomad rejection of prophets foreshadows the next awakening. That is, the Lost anti-advancement rejection of Missionary values was ultimately unsuccessful, with the Lost finally sacrificing for the sake of advancement. Later, however, the Boomers successfully replaced the atonement paradigm, later represented by the GIs.

Generational alignments of advancement cycle (I could be totally wrong!)

Missionary Awakening:
Advancement – Missionary
Transitioning - Progressive
Atonement – Gilded, Lost

WWI/Temperance:
Advancement – Progressive, Missionary, GI
Atonement – Gilded, Lost

Great Depression/WWII:
Advancement – Progressive, Missionary, GI, Silent
Transitioning – Lost

American High:
Advancement – Missionary, Lost, GI, Silent
Atonement – Boomer

Consciousness Revolution:
Advancement: Lost, GI, Xer
Transition: Silent
Atonement: Boomer

Culture Wars:
Advancement: GI, Xer
Atonement: Silent, Boomer, Millennial

The Great Crisis:
Transitioning: Xer
Atonement: Silent, Boomer, Millennial, Homelander

Apollonian and Dionysian are just other names for what you've been labelling as Advancement/Atonement and Doctrinal/(I forget at the moment). Apollonian and Dionysian of course representing the cultural aspects of what you're talking about. They were labelled as such by Nietzche in his essay on Theatre History in Ancient Greece: "The Birth of Tragedy From The Spirit of Music" which I read in my Dramaturgy class for my Masters program. In the class we discussed how over history there's been this general war between "Apollonian" and "Dionysian" forces throughout theater history, with one era coming to exemplify Apollonian ideas, and the next rebelling and becoming Dionysian, and the next rebelling and becoming Apollonian--etc. etc etc. I appropriated the terms and attached them to your theory since what we were talking about in class reminded me of your theory.

In theatre history here's how it goes:

French Neoclassical - Apollonian Theatre
English Sentimentalism - Apollonian Theatre
German Romanticism (Sturm und Drang) - Dionysian Theatre
French Romanticism - Donysian Theatre
Scandinavian Realism - Apollonian Theatre
Russian Method - Apollonian Theatre
American Heightened Realism - Dionysian Theatre
Absurdism - Dionysian Theatre

And here's how they line up with the Saeculums:

Revolutionary Saeculum: Apollonian
Sentimentalism (The School For Scandal)
Neoclassicism (Le Bourgeious Gentilhomme by Moliere; The Imaginary Invalid by Moliere)

Civil War Saeculum: Dionysian
German Romanticism (Faust by Goethe)
French Romanticism (Hernani by Victor Hugo)

Great Powers Saeculum: Apollonian
Scandinavian Realism (A Doll's House by Ibsen; Miss Julie by Strindberg)
Russian Method (Three Sisters by Chekhov)

Millennial Saeculum: Dionysian
American Heightened Realism (A Streetcar Named Desire; Cat on a Hot Tin Roof)
Absurdism (Waiting for Godot; Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?)

In general, I'm attaching cultural trends to your political theory to show how it isn't just in politics that you see these trends, but also in the arts and larger cultural experience as well.

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by Chas'88

Apollonian and Dionysian are just other names for what you've been labelling as Advancement/Atonement and Doctrinal/(I forget at the moment). Apollonian and Dionysian of course representing the cultural aspects of what you're talking about. They were labelled as such by Nietzche in his essay on Theatre History in Ancient Greece: "The Birth of Tragedy From The Spirit of Music" which I read in my Dramaturgy class for my Masters program. In the class we discussed how over history there's been this general war between "Apollonian" and "Dionysian" forces throughout history, with one era coming to exemplify Apollonian ideas, and the next rebelling and becoming Dionysian, and the next rebelling and becoming Apollonian--etc. etc etc. I appropriated the terms and attached them to your theory since what we were talking about in class reminded me of your theory.

~Chas'88

I sort of understand that part. Looks, though that Apollonian and Dionysian are each doing double duty, so that Apollonian reflects both of what Myer-Briggs would call Thinking and Judging, while Dionysian reflects both Feeling and Perceiving.

Are these terms that the authors used in Generations. (I looked for them but could not find them.)

Originally Posted by JDW

I sort of understand that part. Looks, though that Apollonian and Dionysian are each doing double duty, so that Apollonian reflects both of what Myer-Briggs would call Thinking and Judging, while Dionysian reflects both Feeling and Perceiving.

Are these terms that the authors used in Generations. (I looked for them but could not find them.)

Not that I'm aware of. But it's been a while since I read Generations.

~Chas'88