Originally Posted by Chas'88

Not that I'm aware of. But it's been a while since I read Generations.

~Chas'88

Let me ask this: Are these cultural periods understood independantly of the S&H theory, as being back and forth and corresponding to similar dates?

Originally Posted by JDW

Let me ask this: Are these cultural periods understood independantly of the S&H theory, as being back and forth and corresponding to similar dates?

Independent of S&H yes. It's generally accepted in Theatre history, but the dates are fuzzy because Theatre History doesn't just look at one culture, but many.

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by Chas'88

Independent of S&H yes. It's generally accepted in Theatre history, but there dates are fuzzy because Theatre History doesn't just look at one culture, but many.

~Chas'88

Cool! (but I was 5 characters short of being able to post)

Right. Russia is totally on a different timeline than England or the US, or was up until quite recently. It may still be. Justin claims they're deep into their Recovery period and he was there. I tend to agree. Whatever massive damage WWII did to Russia, their two 20th century Crises were the ones that book-ended the Soviet Union.

Originally Posted by Chas'88

Yes, but if there are alternating paradigms where one is focused on more than the other, then Alternating sets of Generations are programmed in certain ways.

For example if this entire saeculum is Dionysian, that would mean each generation in it is looking for some sort of Katharsis--even Millies.

Maybe I'm not being clear. Here's what I'm seeing:

Great Power Saeculum:

Missionary - Apollonian Idealists (Apollo/Dionysus)

GI - Apollonian Civics (In your terms Apollo/Apollo; the epitome of Apollo)

Millennial Saeculum:

Boom - Dionysian Idealists (Dionysus/Dionysus)
Millie - Dionysian Civics (Dionysus/Apollo)

~Chas'88

OK, just so I'm clear on what you're saying. The reason that Millies are Dionysian Civics is that this whole saeculum is Dionysian?

Originally Posted by JDW

I sort of understand that part. Looks, though that Apollonian and Dionysian are each doing double duty, so that Apollonian reflects both of what Myer-Briggs would call Thinking and Judging, while Dionysian reflects both Feeling and Perceiving.

Are these terms that the authors used in Generations. (I looked for them but could not find them.)

I believe they are used in T4T to describe certain generations.

Charles, how does Apollonian/Dionysian differ from classical/romantic?

Also, what makes an entire saeculum Apollonian or Dionysian? I see different periods and generations as being more Apollonian (Civics, Nomads, late Crisis, High, early Awakening) or Dionysian (Adaptives, Idealists, mid to late Awakening, Unraveling, early Crisis).

I see you have the saecula alternating. Is it more than that? I know there have been more classical and romantic periods in history, which is reflected in art, architecture, religion and science.

Originally Posted by The Grey Badger

Whatever massive damage WWII did to Russia, their two 20th century Crises were the ones that book-ended the Soviet Union.

It seems to be a common feature of the Russia 1T. Napoleon invaded during the one prior to Stalin's 1T. Moscow burned to the ground.

I guess that's what happens when you share a long land-border with a bunch of people one turning behind you... your 1T get regularly bruised by their 4T crap spilling over. I've hypothesized that the lack of a actually genuinely incident-free 1T in the last several cycles (if not more) may go quite a way towards explaining the fatalism that forms one of the common threads of the Russian character. Then again, they bounced back from the financial crisis fast enough that I can't imagine that being a big downer. If the US and Europe can avoid doing too much massively stupid outside their borders, maybe this one might work out better.

Originally Posted by Neisha '67

I believe they are used in T4T to describe certain generations.

Charles, how does Apollonian/Dionysian differ from classical/romantic?

Also, what makes an entire saeculum Apollonian or Dionysian? I see different periods and generations as being more Apollonian (Civics, Nomads, late Crisis, High, early Awakening) or Dionysian (Adaptives, Idealists, mid to late Awakening, Unraveling, early Crisis).

I see you have the saecula alternating. Is it more than that? I know there have been more classical and romantic periods in history, which is reflected in art, architecture, religion and science.

Practically none. It's just the terms that Nietzsche applied to the division based off of his studies of Ancient Greek Theatre. And I liked the terms.

Originally, according to Nietzsche, Greek Theatre included both Apollonian and Dionysian elements. The main characters representing Apollonian ideals and the Chorus providing a connection to the audience through music, dance, and emotional lamenting and rejoicing. This is how Greek Theatre was for Aeschulyus and Sophocles. However then came along that radical upstart Euripides, who made the Chorus more interactive characters who helped the main characters decide things... and that began a trend which made the Chorus less about emotional expression and more Apollonian--leading to the decline and eventual exclusion of the Chorus as Greek Theatre continued to evolve. That's at least how Nietzsche saw the evolution of Greek Theatre.

Nietzsche also said that he himself was living in the decline of a Dionysian theatre time period and that the Apollonian was starting to reappear--which he was right because the Scandinavians were just beginning to begin "Realism" and Romanticism and Opera were at their pinnacle, with Romanticism being forced out of the playhouses and into the Operahouses for the remainder of the century as Realism came from the north (Ibsen, Strindberg, etc). In England, Shaw made his appearance. The focus on following the structure of the "well-made play" made the Aristotlean Unities popular again, which they hadn't been since French Neoclassicism had died off. As Freud and his theories about individual psychology came about, and in Russia Method Acting was developed by Stanislavsky for Chekhov's plays--the decline of Romanticism became pronounced.

Similarly we see in American Theatre the beginning of Heightened Realism in the 1940s when Tennessee Williams begins writing--heightened realism meaning that a character, their language & behavior is exaggerated to produce emotional responses within the audience and to portray how exaggerated another character view of that character is distorted; unlike in realism where a character is "realistically" and "psychologically" portrayed. An example of which is Stanley from A Streetcar Named Desire, where the actor would play up the animalistic, cavemanish, and brutish behavior when playing a scene with Blanche--because that is how Blanche sees Stanley. When he plays a scene with Stella, he returns to a more realistic style of acting, because Stella doesn't see him that way. On top of that Williams was actually ahead of his time by examining the power that sex has over people--which causes Stella to forgo her sister in favor of her husband. Unlike in the Hollywood adaptation (which had its ending and a few monologues altered to fit with Holywood moral codes of the time--the reference to Blanche's gay husband) Stella stays with Stanley at the end. However Williams was more the exception, and not the rule: Arthur Miller continued the tradition of Realism in the vein of Ibsen, as did other playwrights.

Then there was Absurdism, which parodies and destroys the concepts of the "well-made play" and is out for provoking emotional responses. Think of Edward Albee's Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf, or even The Zoo Story.

Heck for a more modern example I'll throw in August Wilson who used songs, dances, semi-rituals, and heavy emotional drama to tell the story of African-Americans over the course of the 20th Century through 10 plays (one for each decade).

This here is just two contrasting time periods. And even though the American High individually as a High had more of a Disney "Apollonian" feel to it, there was an undercurrent which was laying the groundwork for the upcoming Awakening. That groundwork was due to the general evolution that the Saeculum was about to take off.

On the whole, this Saeculum is Dionysian (sure you can go and look individually at smaller decades and see Apollonian trends still present, but they're reactionary and not the driving force of the Saeculum). And so since the entire Saeculum is Dionysian, it'll have this pattern, that the "change" and "action" focused parts of the Saeculum (the Awakening and Crisis) will have Dionysian flavors (meaning the Awakening will be uber Dionysian--since it's already inherently Dionysian; and the Crisis will have a Dionysian twist or flair to it). During a Dionysian Crisis therefore, it is more of a fact that Emotions carry more weight than Reason, Fear is likely to be a humoungous motivator and Love/Compassion/Charity is the only thing to combat it. It is more likely, I would think for a Civil War to occur during a Dionysian Crisis than in an Apollonian Crisis. The Great Depression/WWII was definitely an Apollonian Crisis, where fear was discouraged and grand ideals such as the New Deal came about to make huge steps in our governmental structure that hadn't been seen since the founding of the nation.

So I wouldn't expect there to be some grand sweeping change like the New Deal. It's not the Crisis to do that in--that's the next Crisis. Oh, to be sure, there'll be governmental changes, but they're more likely to have to do with satisfying the emotional moral concerns of the American people--just like freeing the slaves, giving them voter's rights, and ending the plantation way of life was an emotional moral concern for the last Dionysian Saeculum. This time the destruction of the Boomers will lead this nation towards an emotional moral Katharsis that the Silents would be unable to deliver. The Civil War Saeculum's Katharsis obviously being the Civil War. The job of the Missionaries was to destroy and have the GIs build an ideal society. Now's the time to deal with the emotional moral ramifications of that society. It's not a time for grand sweeping legislation to create another ideal society, but rather right some wrongs that have been done in the name of the system and the ideal. In otherwords, the Imperial Corporate State that was dreamed up by the Missionaries and founded and built up in the last Crisis & High by the GIs has to be dealt with. The moral wrongs and social misdemeanors of that system have to be dealt with and corrected, achieving Katharsis when those wrongs are righted. Go at it Boomers, destroy and achieve Katharsis. Your generational successors will be the ones to think up some new ideal society to live in.

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by Chas'88

Practically none. It's just the terms that Nietzsche applied to the division based off of his studies of Ancient Greek Theatre. And I liked the terms.

This here is just two contrasting time periods. And even though the American High individually as a High had more of a Disney "Apollonian" feel to it, there was an undercurrent which was laying the groundwork for the upcoming Awakening. That groundwork was due to the general evolution that the Saeculum was about to take off.

On the whole, this Saeculum is Dionysian (sure you can go and look individually at smaller decades and see Apollonian trends still present, but they're reactionary and not the driving force of the Saeculum). And so since the entire Saeculum is Dionysian, it'll have this pattern, that the "change" and "action" focused parts of the Saeculum (the Awakening and Crisis) will have Dionysian flavors (meaning the Awakening will be uber Dionysian--since it's already inherently Dionysian; and the Crisis will have a Dionysian twist or flair to it). During a Dionysian Crisis therefore, it is more of a fact that Emotions carry more weight than Reason, Fear is likely to be a humoungous motivator and Love/Compassion/Charity is the only thing to combat it. It is more likely, I would think for a Civil War to occur during a Dionysian Crisis than in an Apollonian Crisis. The Great Depression/WWII was definitely an Apollonian Crisis, where fear was discouraged and grand ideals such as the New Deal came about to make huge steps in our governmental structure that hadn't been seen since the founding of the nation.

So I wouldn't expect there to be some grand sweeping change like the New Deal. It's not the Crisis to do that in--that's the next Crisis. Oh, to be sure, there'll be governmental changes, but they're more likely to have to do with satisfying the emotional moral concerns of the American people--just like freeing the slaves, giving them voter's rights, and ending the plantation way of life was an emotional moral concern for the last Dionysian Saeculum. This time the destruction of the Boomers will lead this nation towards an emotional moral Katharsis that the Silents would be unable to deliver. The Civil War Saeculum's Katharsis obviously being the Civil War. The job of the Missionaries was to destroy and have the GIs build an ideal society. Now's the time to deal with the emotional moral ramifications of that society. It's not a time for grand sweeping legislation to create another ideal society, but rather right some wrongs that have been done in the name of the system and the ideal. In otherwords, the Imperial Corporate State that was dreamed up by the Missionaries and founded and built up in the last Crisis & High by the GIs has to be dealt with. The moral wrongs and social misdemeanors of that system have to be dealt with and corrected, achieving Katharsis when those wrongs are righted. Go at it Boomers, destroy and achieve Katharsis. Your generational successors will be the ones to think up some new ideal society to live in.

~Chas'88

A quick comment about Catharsis/Katharsis. When one looks at(experiences) a "living" System, one can percieve the Expansion and Contraction(Desire and Fear) taking place. A couple of examples: A "Capitulation Bottom"/"Blow-off Top" in the Stock Market. An orgasm. Birth. Death. Etc.

One thing though is that we usually want to include the post-cathartic period as well; An epilogue. The Market rebound/pull-back. Post-coital bliss. Mother holding child. A moment of silence. Etc.

In Music we have Tension and Release in Rhythm and Frequency(They're actually the same looked at from different POVs).

That Rush song "Hemispheres" that I posted earlier in this thread is an excellent example of that occurance. "Light my Fire" by The Doors actually has two cathartic moments; One after the extended instrumental and one at the end of the song after Morrison's gutteral FIRE!!!!!!!!!!!!! as Manzarek restates the opening musical riff.
http://www.youtube.com/v/flOvM4Z355A?fs=1&hl=en_US


So, in terms of a Saeculum, we would see the expansionary High/Awakening and the contractionary Unraveling/Crisis, ending with the Cathartic Event and then the New High. Thus it would be correct for us to state as such: High, Awakening, Unraveling, Crisis, New High. It can help us to view it that way so as not to get too caught up in a particular Season. Our minds can sometimes be programmed to live in a World of Start/Finish.

In Music it would be correct to state as: Release, Tension, Release.

Love this portrayal of the New High from Tron(1982); Really stuck with me: the Visual and Sound. The Final Battle starts around 7:00m; New High around 12:40m.
http://www.youtube.com/v/V3v9UB5b37A?fs=1&hl=en_US

In contrast, Jackson's LOTW's Epilogue never seemed to end! Enough already Pete; I gotta go PEE!(LOL)

PoC67

Given that the next saeculum will be both Apollonian and a Mega-Unraveling AND the time that The Technological Singularity may happen; I suspect that a major element of the next Awakening will be a techno-utopian "self-perfection" movement that will make today's body-mod culture seem tame by comparison. The emphasis will be on a diversity, not unity as in the Great Power Saeculum, which was a Mega-High

Originally Posted by Neisha '67

I believe they are used in T4T to describe certain generations.

Charles, how does Apollonian/Dionysian differ from classical/romantic?

Also, what makes an entire saeculum Apollonian or Dionysian? I see different periods and generations as being more Apollonian

I see you have the saecula alternating. Is it more than that? I know there have been more classical and romantic periods in history, which is reflected in art, architecture, religion and science.

Consider alternating Awakenings:

The Dionysus Awakening has been labeled "Moral", as "God centered", and referred to as a "hot" awakening by the Grey Badger. These awakenings tend to probe the limits of the spiritual.

This is where the Atonement theme comes in.

These awakenings are associated with the Prophet variant called Advocates.

************************************************** *************

The Apollo Awakening has been labeled "Doctrinair", as "Man centered", and referred to as a "cool" awakening be the Grey Badger. These awakenings tend to be more intellectual.

This is where the Advancement theme comes in.

These awakenings are associated with the Prophet variant called Engineers.

************************************************** **************

It has been suggested that this 4T may be similar to the Glorious Revolution.

Originally Posted by Odin

Given that the next saeculum will be both Apollonian and a Mega-Unraveling AND the time that The Technological Singularity may happen; I suspect that a major element of the next Awakening will be a techno-utopian "self-perfection" movement that will make today's body-mod culture seem tame by comparison. The emphasis will be on a diversity, not unity as in the Great Power Saeculum, which was a Mega-High

In fact looking at it like this (using the official dates of the Saeculums):

Ultra-Saeculum: Medieval

13?? - 1487: Late Medieval Saeculum - Dionysian - Mega Crisis

Ultra-Saeculum: Modern

1487 - 1594: Tudor Saeculum - Apollonian - Mega High
1594 - 1704 : New World Saeculum - Dionysian - Mega Awakening
1704 - 1794: Revolutionary Saeculum - Apollonian - Mega Unraveling
1794 - 1865: Civil War Saeculum - Dionysian - Mega Crisis

Ultra-Saeculum: PostModern?

1865 - 1946: Great Power Saeculum - Apollonian - Mega High
1946 - 202?: Millennial Saeculum - Dionysian - Mega Awakening

When we traditionally associate the "Renaissance" occuring throughout much of Europe (1490s - 1590s) was actually an Apollonian time where new ideals were born or rediscovered. Which makes perfect sense with how we traditionally think of the Renaissance as a "rebirth" of thought.

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by TimWalker

And the Reformation has been described as an Apollo-type Awakening.

Indeed, with all of it's Doctrinal changes in Church Doctrine as well as a flowering of Philosophy. It makes perfect sense.

~Chas'88

I was kinda mixing and matching what Chas and Niesha said about the different awakenings and the different archetypes having different styles. My thought is if the both are right the extremes would not be actually during the awakenings, but when the awakening matches the archetype to produce a kind of synergy between the awakening and the archetype. Most likely hitting each peak during the nomad and adaptive generations. Is this way off? Or do the different types of theater usually hit the extreme during the awakening?

Originally Posted by Chas'88

Practically none. It's just the terms that Nietzsche applied to the division based off of his studies of Ancient Greek Theatre. And I liked the terms.

Originally, according to Nietzsche, Greek Theatre included both Apollonian and Dionysian elements. The main characters representing Apollonian ideals and the Chorus providing a connection to the audience through music, dance, and emotional lamenting and rejoicing. This is how Greek Theatre was for Aeschulyus and Sophocles. However then came along that radical upstart Euripides, who made the Chorus more interactive characters who helped the main characters decide things... and that began a trend which made the Chorus less about emotional expression and more Apollonian--leading to the decline and eventual exclusion of the Chorus as Greek Theatre continued to evolve. That's at least how Nietzsche saw the evolution of Greek Theatre.

Nietzsche also said that he himself was living in the decline of a Dionysian theatre time period and that the Apollonian was starting to reappear--which he was right because the Scandinavians were just beginning to begin "Realism" and Romanticism and Opera were at their pinnacle, with Romanticism being forced out of the playhouses and into the Operahouses for the remainder of the century as Realism came from the north (Ibsen, Strindberg, etc). In England, Shaw made his appearance. The focus on following the structure of the "well-made play" made the Aristotlean Unities popular again, which they hadn't been since French Neoclassicism had died off. As Freud and his theories about individual psychology came about, and in Russia Method Acting was developed by Stanislavsky for Chekhov's plays--the decline of Romanticism became pronounced.

Similarly we see in American Theatre the beginning of Heightened Realism in the 1940s when Tennessee Williams begins writing--heightened realism meaning that a character is exaggerated to produce emotional responses within the audience and to portray how exaggerated another character view of that character is distorted; unlike in realism where a character is "realistically" and "psychologically" portrayed. An example of which is Stanley from A Streetcar Named Desire, where the actor would play up the animalistic, cavemanish, and brutish behavior when playing a scene with Blanche--because that is how Blanche sees Stanley. When he plays a scene with Stella, he returns to a more realistic style of acting, because Stella doesn't see him that way. On top of that Williams was actually ahead of his time by examining the power that sex has over people--which causes Stella to forgo her sister in favor of her husband. Unlike in the Hollywood adaptation (which had its ending and a few monologues altered to fit with Holywood moral codes of the time--the reference to Blanche's gay husband) Stella stays with Stanley at the end. However Williams was more the exception, and not the rule: Arthur Miller continued the tradition of Realism in the vein of Ibsen, as did other playwrights.

Then there was Absurdism, which parodies and destroys the concepts of the "well-made play" and is out for provoking emotional responses. Think of Edward Albee's Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf, or even The Zoo Story.

Heck for a more modern example I'll throw in August Wilson who used songs, dances, semi-rituals, and heavy emotional drama to tell the story of African-Americans over the course of the 20th Century through 10 plays (one for each decade).

This here is just two contrasting time periods. And even though the American High individually as a High had more of a Disney "Apollonian" feel to it, there was an undercurrent which was laying the groundwork for the upcoming Awakening. That groundwork was due to the general evolution that the Saeculum was about to take off.

On the whole, this Saeculum is Dionysian (sure you can go and look individually at smaller decades and see Apollonian trends still present, but they're reactionary and not the driving force of the Saeculum). And so since the entire Saeculum is Dionysian, it'll have this pattern, that the "change" and "action" focused parts of the Saeculum (the Awakening and Crisis) will have Dionysian flavors (meaning the Awakening will be uber Dionysian--since it's already inherently Dionysian; and the Crisis will have a Dionysian twist or flair to it). During a Dionysian Crisis therefore, it is more of a fact that Emotions carry more weight than Reason, Fear is likely to be a humoungous motivator and Love/Compassion/Charity is the only thing to combat it. It is more likely, I would think for a Civil War to occur during a Dionysian Crisis than in an Apollonian Crisis. The Great Depression/WWII was definitely an Apollonian Crisis, where fear was discouraged and grand ideals such as the New Deal came about to make huge steps in our governmental structure that hadn't been seen since the founding of the nation.

So I wouldn't expect there to be some grand sweeping change like the New Deal. It's not the Crisis to do that in--that's the next Crisis. Oh, to be sure, there'll be governmental changes, but they're more likely to have to do with satisfying the emotional moral concerns of the American people--just like freeing the slaves, giving them voter's rights, and ending the plantation way of life was an emotional moral concern for the last Dionysian Saeculum. This time the destruction of the Boomers will lead this nation towards an emotional moral Katharsis that the Silents would be unable to deliver. The Civil War Saeculum's Katharsis obviously being the Civil War. The job of the Missionaries was to destroy and have the GIs build an ideal society. Now's the time to deal with the emotional moral ramifications of that society. It's not a time for grand sweeping legislation to create another ideal society, but rather right some wrongs that have been done in the name of the system and the ideal. In otherwords, the Imperial Corporate State that was dreamed up by the Missionaries and founded and built up in the last Crisis & High by the GIs has to be dealt with. The moral wrongs and social misdemeanors of that system have to be dealt with and corrected, achieving Katharsis when those wrongs are righted. Go at it Boomers, destroy and achieve Katharsis. Your generational successors will be the ones to think up some new ideal society to live in.

~Chas'88

Excellent post. I'm still mulling it over. I've always thought of certain periods as being classical or romantic, but I've never applied that to saecula before.

Question about the Imperial Corporate State: was it dreamed up by Missionaries, or by the Gilded? I've always thought that the corporate seeds were planted more by the Gilded generation and that Missionaries sought to destroy it, but were never entirely successful in that. Instead they chose to focus on organized crime, substance abuse, and the rights of factory workers and tenement dwellers. What Missionaries did was to build the federal government, including the military, which has continued unabated since then. This allowed the GI generation to combine the two, which Eisenhower and other members of the Lost generation warned them about. But, by then the Lost generation was fading from influence.

Originally Posted by Neisha '67

Excellent post. I'm still mulling it over. I've always thought of certain periods as being classical or romantic, but I've never applied that to saecula before.

Question about the Imperial Corporate State: was it dreamed up by Missionaries, or by the Gilded? I've always thought that the corporate seeds were planted more by the Gilded generation and that Missionaries sought to destroy it, but were never entirely successful in that. Instead they chose to focus on organized crime, substance abuse, and the rights of factory workers and tenement dwellers. What Missionaries did was to build the federal government, including the military, which has continued unabated since then. This allowed the GI generation to combine the two, which Eisenhower and other members of the Lost generation warned them about. But, by then the Lost generation was fading from influence.

IIRC it was thought by the Missionaries that corporations would be held more accountable to their workers, if the workers all held stock in the company. Thus it would get rid of the problem of the Robber-Barons that were the Gilded. So Corporations were intended to reign in the rich, but ended up being a tool that the rich could manipulate to its fancy by buying out the majority of the significant holds of stock.

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by Odin

That this is a Moral Crisis is becoming really obvious. Everything from economics (Fair trade, not free trade!!!), the environment (The planet is being raped and pillaged by the greedy!!!), to the WOT (Islam is an evil religion that goes again Western values!!!), etc. are being filtered though an emotional, moralistic mindset. And I find myself basing my views on things (my socialism, my enviromentalism, my social liberalism, my defense of Western values again the attacks of the Postmodernists, etc) ultimately on moral axioms that cannot be justified logically

Odin, thank you for this post. Your level of honesty and self-awareness is not only enlightening, but INSPIRING!....Not to mention RARE in this World IMO.

Sincerely, PoC67

PS: I was searching for Joseph Campbell posts and your name keeps popping-up. Interesting.

Originally Posted by Odin

And I find myself basing my views on things (my socialism, my enviromentalism, my social liberalism, my defense of Western values again the attacks of the Postmodernists, etc) ultimately on moral axioms that cannot be justified logically

This goes for both sides of the political spectrum. So how do we get out of a moral crisis? How do you base laws on morality? Do we just kick morality out the door and anyone speaking of such things become the new communist during the next High? Scary times.

Originally Posted by Chas'88

In fact looking at it like this (using the official dates of the Saeculums):

Ultra-Saeculum: Medieval

13?? - 1487: Late Medieval Saeculum - Dionysian - Mega Crisis

Ultra-Saeculum: Modern

1487 - 1594: Tudor Saeculum - Apollonian - Mega High
1594 - 1704 : New World Saeculum - Dionysian - Mega Awakening
1704 - 1794: Revolutionary Saeculum - Apollonian - Mega Unraveling
1794 - 1865: Civil War Saeculum - Dionysian - Mega Crisis

Ultra-Saeculum: PostModern?

1865 - 1946: Great Power Saeculum - Apollonian - Mega High
1946 - 202?: Millennial Saeculum - Dionysian - Mega Awakening

When we traditionally associate the "Renaissance" occuring throughout much of Europe (1490s - 1590s) was actually an Apollonian time where new ideals were born or rediscovered. Which makes perfect sense with how we traditionally think of the Renaissance as a "rebirth" of thought.

~Chas'88

Taken one step further, what Ultra-Turning is our current Saeculm?

My guess is Ultra-Unraveling, as in:


Medieval (13?? - 1487) Ultra-High: Rapid, orderly expansion into the New World, end of the Dark Ages.

Modern (1487 - 1865) Ultra-Awakening: New ideas challenge the existing order. Leaders have to prove moral authority.

Post-Modern (1865 - 20??) Ultra-Unraveling: The world map is covered with Nation-States.

Originally Posted by millennialX

This goes for both sides of the political spectrum. So how do we get out of a moral crisis? How do you base laws on morality? Do we just kick morality out the door and anyone speaking of such things become the new communist during the next High? Scary times.

That's kinda what I'm getting at with my reference to "kill the king" or "heal the king".

In Myth, we could view "killing the king" as a destruction of Authority through the Electoral Process or Violent Revolution. "Healing the king" might take the shape of a Leader realizing the error of their ways mid-term or maybe a voice from below that captures the National "mood", but in a non-violent manner.

Not to say that there wouldn't be CONFLICT, but I feel "healing the king" would be less Judgemental. It would still require Feeling affecting Thought; Not the opposite.

My hope is that we avert a French Rev Crisis. The idea of Atonement that has been offered really rings true to me; Puts an understandable frame for me. The concepts of Guilt, Sin, Atonement, Redemption, Etc. Unfortunately, some feel such a level of need for Atonement, that they are willing to set Policy to achieve such Ends. That's something that affects us all. Resentment is sure to follow by those that don't feel a need for Atonement. Scapegoats, the "blame game", Etc. Also, when is that Atonement achieved? Who has to be PUNISHED? The King, the Elite, those with $$$, those with priveledge, those who have nothing but choose to not participate w/the mob?

Is the Global Warming Narrative/Thesis a sin against Man? Against the Earth? Foriegn wars? How about the Vietnamese People? How about the Japanese People?(FWIW, that discussion is kinda taking place on another thread currently). Iragis, Afghanis, Pakistanis? What about other Nations that bought our Toxic MBS? What about Big Business? Where do we draw the line on what defines a "Big Business"? How about different Races, Sexual-Orientations, Disabed Persons?

I've had some recent Anecdotal experiences with people where they are coming to the conclusion that they "feel" bad about the condition that some of their friends are experiencing, but are feeling that they don't have the Financial or Emotional Resources to help. This from my more left-leaning friends! This is a very recent occurance, though.

I believe the concept of Selfish/Selfless is being worked-out internally. I try not to intervene too much; Just let them express themselves. I do offer 2 items of advice.

#1: Replace Self-ish with Self-full. Self-full vs Self-less. Being Self-full is looking-out for one's own well-being. If an individual can't/doesn't take care of themselves, they'll NEVER be able to help others even if they wanted to.

#2: If you have a starving mother and a starving baby, but only enough food for one, who do you feed? The mother b/c a healthy mother can nurse the child. It's only a basic thought-tool, but most get it pretty quickly. Looking out for #1(first) is NOT a sin. In fact, I see it as a Virtue.

Thanks for letting me get that out.

Sincerely, PoC67

PS: Trying to Legislate Equality is as unproductive as Legislating Morality IMO. I understand the feeling, but I simply don't feel any need for personal Atonement on a Macro-level; I've already been through that Test individually in my Life. I'm guessing others have not. Does it only work on an individual level and thus a society is eventually healed via the "butterfly effect"(Bottom-Up) or are there examples where an entire Society is healed from guilt by a national Discourse/Event(Top-Down)?

Vengence is NEVER a sustainable answer!.....IMO.

I refuse to feel "victimized" by a Moral Atonement Crisis. If Authority goes down that road, I will try to adapt and survive; I will NOT participate in an Oppressor/Oppessed Narative. Chas put it well IMO.

Originally Posted by Chas'88

The moral wrongs and social misdemeanors of that system have to be dealt with and corrected, achieving Katharsis when those wrongs are righted. Go at it Boomers, destroy and achieve Katharsis. Your generational successors will be the ones to think up some new ideal society to live in.

~Chas'88

The last two Katharsis events that I can think of:

American Civil War - where the legislation came from the top down on the southern states to get rid of Slavery.

Salem Witch Trials - where society outsiders and those who threatened to change it from a farming to a merchantile culture, or those who had "committed wrongs" against the Putnams (land ownership arguments), were branded as witches and either hanged or imprisoned.

Quite frankly I think we're safe from repeating the former... but the more I listen to people in this country I don't think we're safe from the latter. Already as a nation we're starting to develop anti-Muslim feelings (something which was not a part of 9/11--where Bush in one of his sanner moments urged people not to blame an entire religion based on the actions of a bunch of ragtag radicals--but is part of the aftermath of fighting two wars in the middle-east. And now that I hear the FBI is "worried" about Hispanics converting to Islam and becoming terrorists (apparently they've noticed an uptic in that or something like that--I heard it on NPR) I can easily see some demeagoge taking that and running with it for those "scared of illegal immigrants". Next thing you know we open up the good old "internment" camps and start shipping people there again.

I refuse to be a part of that. And that will get me protesting.

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by Chas'88

The last two Katharsis events that I can think of:

American Civil War - where the legislation came from the top down on the southern states to get rid of Slavery.

Salem Witch Trials - where society outsiders and those who threatened to change it from a farming to a merchantile culture, or those who had "committed wrongs" against the Putnams (land ownership arguments), were branded as witches and either hanged or imprisoned.

Quite frankly I think we're safe from repeating the former... but the more I listen to people in this country I don't think we're safe from the latter. Already as a nation we're starting to develop anti-Muslim feelings (something which was not a part of 9/11--where Bush in one of his sanner moments urged people not to blame an entire religion based on the actions of a bunch of ragtag radicals--but is part of the aftermath of fighting two wars in the middle-east. And now that I hear the FBI is "worried" about Hispanics converting to Islam and becoming terrorists (apparently they've noticed an uptic in that or something like that--I heard it on NPR) I can easily see some demeagoge taking that and running with it for those "scared of illegal immigrants". Next thing you know we open up the good old "internment" camps and start shipping people there again.

I refuse to be a part of that. And that will get me protesting.

~Chas'88

Non-violently I hope. Free-associating here a bit.

Both Karl Popper and Bertoldt Brecht's "Antigone" disturb me in the area of Non-Violent participation and how Authority can deal with those refusing to "play-ball". Specific evidence offered if desired.

Rush Witchhunt:http://www.youtube.com/v/_MWzDKE4zbY?fs=1&hl=en_US

Neil Young(1945) is probably the reason I started to play guitar. Two songs come to mind. "After the Goldrush"-1970.
http://www.youtube.com/v/12T95RHGLH8?fs=1&hl=en_US
He was describing the end of an era(Awakening-high?) even refering to the death of Jimmy Hendrix(1942) in the second verse. Of course Janis Joplin(1943) and Jim Morrison(1943) were at that time as well. All part of that Pre-Boomer/Late-wave Silent Cusp.

Common misconception of the 60's Awakening is that 1967's Monterrey Pop Festival's-Flower Children are the same as 1969's Woodstock-Hippies. They are not.

"Sugar Mountain".
http://www.youtube.com/v/vGI5wGp2tXA?fs=1&hl=en_US
I've always felt this song was indicative of Prophets. "You can't be 20 on Sugar Mountain....." Never to experience a Crisis until later in Life. "Ain't it funny how you feel when you're finding-out it's real".

PoC67

Originally Posted by princeofcats67

Non-violently I hope. Free-associating here a bit.

Both Karl Popper and Bertoldt Brecht's "Antigone" disturb me in the area of Non-Violent participation and how one can deal with refusing to "play-ball". Specific evidence offered if desired.

Rush Witchhunt:http://www.youtube.com/v/_MWzDKE4zbY?fs=1&hl=en_US

Neil Young(1945) is probably the reason I started to play guitar. Two songs come to mind. "After the Goldrush"-1970.
http://www.youtube.com/v/12T95RHGLH8?fs=1&hl=en_US
He was describing the end of an era(Awakening-high?) even refering to the death of Jimmy hendrix(1942) in the second verse. Of course Janis Joplin(1943) and Jim Morrison(1943) were at that time as well. All part of that Pre-Boomer/Late-wave Silent Cusp.

Common misconception of the 60's Awakening is that 1967's Monterrey Pop Festival's-Flower Children are the same as 1969's Woodstock-Hippies. They are not.

"Sugar Mountain".
http://www.youtube.com/v/vGI5wGp2tXA?fs=1&hl=en_US
I've always felt this song was indicative of Prophets. "You can't be 20 on Sugar Mountain....." Never to experience a Crisis until later in Life. "Ain't it funny how you feel when you're finding-out it's real".

PoC67

Quite agreed. I knew a person who was involved with the 1967 Summer of Love event. She and her "partner" had a child and they ended up marrying and later divorcing because they couldn't stand one another. She once told me that she didn't understand the "Woodstock" generation as she put it. IIRC she was about my parent's age, so she was a War Baby cusper as well.

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by Chas'88

Quite agreed. I knew a person who was involved with the 1967 Summer of Love event. She and her "partner" had a child and they ended up marrying and later divorcing because they couldn't stand one another. She once told me that she didn't understand the "Woodstock" generation as she put it. IIRC she was about my parent's age, so she was a War Baby cusper as well.

~Chas'88

I remember hearing that one of my influences, George Harrison from The Beatle's(Silent-George), went to Haight-Ashbury hoping to find an entire enlightened community. I believe he said instead all he found was a bunch of drug-addicts. I've been looking recently, but can't seem to find the definitive quote, but my memory is pretty good.....for now!

poC67

PS; Fits the Narrative. I highly suspect I'm correct in this thinking.

Originally Posted by princeofcats67

I remember hearing that one of my influences, George Harrison from The Beatle's(Silent-George), went to Haight-Ashbury hoping to find an entire enlightened community. I believe he said instead all he found was a bunch of drug-addicts. I've been looking recently, but can't seem to find the definitive quote, but my memory is pretty good.....for now!

Here is the quote.

Originally Posted by High Beam Research

Strolling through Haight-Ashbury in 1967, it was George Harrison--the quiet Beatle, for God's sake, and the one with the sitar!--who delivered one of the most caustic putdowns of hippies ever. "Somehow I expected them all to own their own little shops. I expected them to all be nice and clean and friendly and happy," said the future composer of "Give Me Love (Give Me Peace on Earth)," sounding more like Spiro Agnew than Ravi Shankar for a moment. Rather than love children he could, well, love, Harrison encountered what he called "hideous, spotty little teenagers" who "were all terribly dirty and scruffy "

He apprarently liked the London scene better. He wrote this song about the groupies who hung around Apple Studios. :