Originally Posted by princeofcats67

I remember hearing that one of my influences, George Harrison from The Beatle's(Silent-George), went to Haight-Ashbury hoping to find an entire enlightened community. I believe he said instead all he found was a bunch of drug-addicts. I've been looking recently, but can't seem to find the definitive quote, but my memory is pretty good.....for now!

poC67

PS; Fits the Narrative. I highly suspect I'm correct in this thinking.

One nit. George Harrison was born in 1943, which according to the American turnings, would make him a very early Boomer. Of course, he was British, so he probably was an Adaptive.

Originally Posted by The Wonkette

One nit. George Harrison was born in 1943, which according to the American turnings, would make him a very early Boomer. Of course, he was British, so he probably was an Adaptive.

I'm working the Brit thing out currently. It may be a little different than here in the States. Also, I notice the Boom from 1945-1965, roughly. That's where these Cusp-thingys start showing-up. Silent-Prophet 1940-1945. Prophet-Xer(Joneser) 1960-1965.

PoC67

Originally Posted by The Wonkette

One nit. George Harrison was born in 1943, which according to the American turnings, would make him a very early Boomer. Of course, he was British, so he probably was an Adaptive.

A thought just occured to me.(That's rare)

It could be that the Musicians I named were all felt abandoned as youths. I know that's the case with Lennon, Joplin, Morrison, and Hendrix. Might be Personal and not Generational. I'll say this much: I doubt we would classify the Boomers as feeling abandoned in their Childhood. It was later at Woodstock that Ritchie Havens(1941) pulled the "Motherless Child" line out of the Cosmos IN "FREEDOM".

http://www.youtube.com/v/Q1pMeyy__r0?fs=1&hl=en_US

Great story behind that moment of Inspiration!

Drugs were a false "Conciousness" and a lifestyle choice for Boomer Hippies IMO. I tried to emulate them(my initial role models), but failed MISERABLY! True "enlightment" is not gained externally and should only be attempted out of Necessity. One may not survive The Journey.

PoC67

PS: The Who's "Tommy", The Lifehouse Project, and "Who's Next" aka Tommy pt 2.

Originally Posted by JDW

......With the Entertainers retiring from public influence, there is no one left to champion the Doctrinal Paradigm. Advocates are now unrestrained in leading society toward a moral showdown, despite whatever hardship might result. Administrators finally accept the Doctrinal Paradigm as inevitable and are prepared to make any other concessions and sacrifices necessary to help society survive in the process of achieving its moral goals. Mentors prove themselves capable of demonstrating teamwork in resolving the Crisis. As a result, they earn the respect of everyone, especially the young latent Operators.

****

From those of you are truly interested in the theory, I desire your feedback on this. Is it plausible? If not, where does it fall short. Is it a better presentation than my earlier thread, or is it just more of the same? Proofreading is also welcome.

Thanks for considering this.
Jack

FWIW, The more I look at this, the more it makes sense to me. One thing though. In the above passage that I copied, with no one left to defend the Doctrinal Paradigm, wouldn't the Administrators be accepting the Moral Paradigm as inevitable? Being a Nomad, I could see that happening, although I don't want it by any means.

PoC67

Originally Posted by princeofcats67

FWIW, The more I look at this, the more it makes sense to me. One thing though. In the above passage that I copied, with no one left to defend the Doctrinal Paradigm, wouldn't the Administrators be accepting the Moral Paradigm as inevitable? Being a Nomad, I could see that happening, although I don't want it by any means.

PoC67

Good catch! I have fixed it.

Originally Posted by princeofcats67

A thought just occured to me.(That's rare)

It could be that the Musicians I named were all felt abandoned as youths. I know that's the case with Lennon, Joplin, Morroson, and Hendrix. Might be Personal and not Generational. I'll say this much: I doubt we would classify the Boomers as feeling abandoned in their Childhood. It was later at Woodstock that Ritchie Havens(1941) pulled the "Motherless Child" line out of the Cosmos IN "FREEDOM".

PoC67

Plenty of Disco wave Boomers lived through their parents' divorces. I was fortunate in having parents who stayed married until the end (when my father died, after I was grown), but a number of my friends had divorced parents. We came of age in the 1970s, and many of our Silent parents were "finding themselves" and having midlife crises.

Originally Posted by The Wonkette

One nit. George Harrison was born in 1943, which according to the American turnings, would make him a very early Boomer. Of course, he was British, so he probably was an Adaptive.

When S&H did British turnings they put the British Silents--the Air-Raid Generation--as lasting until 1946.

Here's the Brit Generations from what I can remember off the top of my head:

Contemptibles (Lost)
1883 - 1907

Victory (GI)
1908 - 1926

Air Raid (Silent)
1927 - 1946

68ers (Boomers)
1947 - 1966

Hooligan (Xers)
1967 - 1987

Millennials
1988 - 20??

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by Chas'88

When S&H did British turnings they put the British Silents--the Air-Raid Generation--as lasting until 1946.

Here's the Brit Generations from what I can remember off the top of my head:

Contemptibles (Lost)
1883 - 1907

Victory (GI)
1908 - 1926

Air Raid (Silent)
1927 - 1946

68ers (Boomers)
1947 - 1966

Hooligan (Xers)
1967 - 1987

Millennials
1988 - 20??

~Chas'88

Ah.....................!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And I was sensing-it all by me-self!
I was even picturing Air-Raid and .....the psychological aftermath.

This isn't about 1939 per se, but it really hits me deeply. Makes me think about WW II/Dunkirk/Living for future Generations/Posterity!

Queen '39:The lyrics are VERY Generational: Making me cry just listening now. Amazing!
http://www.youtube.com/v/BjuyXR5by2s?fs=1&hl=en_US
(please listen).

Great performance of this by George Michael at the Freddy Mercury Tribute Concert at Wembly Stadium! Plus...."Somebody to Love".

Here's '39:
http://www.youtube.com/v/oIZvd1wt1-k?fs=1&hl=en_US

Here's StL:
http://www.youtube.com/v/8c7x2JD_j-0?fs=1&hl=en_US
(Great musical Catharsis)! In interview George Michael has talked about how special this performance was in his Life. The Spiritual Experience shows in the Performance IMO.

PoC67

PS: In the UK, I'd be a Hooligan!(LOL) Too much!

My experience has been...if you scapegoat somebody, you antagonize him.

The following book describes an interaction between the saeculum and partisan politics.


The Neglected Voter White Men And The Democratic Dilemma by David Paul Kuhn


"Liberals blamed all white men for the wrongs of some....

"...the dogmatic liberalism that arose in 1969 and won the party in 1972 viewed white men as the enemy. Liberals seemed incapable of arguing for the rights of the oppressed without pinning white men as the scapegoat...."

The author quoted writer Caitlin Flanagan:

"'In the middle of doing the great work of the '60s-civil rights, women's liberation, gay inclusion-we decided to stigmatize the white male. The union-dues paying, churchgoing, beer-drinking family man got nothing but ridicule and venom from us. So he dumped us. And he took the wife and kids with him.' And she concluded, 'now here we are, living in a country with a political and economic agenda we deplore, losing election after election and wondering why.'

"No factor has been more instrumental in causing Democratic decline in presidental politics than the loss of white men...The White Male Gap had arrived....

"So white men became 'the man.' He held all the cards, and everyone else's bad deal was his fault. But the bulk of white men did not feel like dealers or players. They felt like pieces on someone else's table, and their livelihood, their family's very stability, was in richer men's hands as well.....

"...Liberals believe they are standing up for the workingman, while the white workingman believes the culture of liberalism stands against him....

"These men were no longer 'forgotten,' as Franklyn D. Roosevelt put it. That implies that Democrats accidentally left these men behind. In 1968, liberals began to purposefully disregard white men, and they paid for it. They reaped the whirlwind of their illiberal intolerance in presential election losses...."

Tough economic times did not reverse trends.

"...sons who did not live through the civil rights or feminist movements vote Republican, as their fathers did under Nixon and Reagan...When white men do poorly it does not lead them to Democrats, because dogmatic liberals have for decades pushed Democrats to side against the white workingman...."

The Neglected Voter

"To Ronald Regan, America was good. Reagan refuted the denunciation of traditional mores, of manhood, of the American nation. In Reagans view, a white American man did not owe all others his constant contrition. He did not have to go through life paying interest on older white men's brutalities in generations past...."

Originally Posted by TimWalker

The Neglected Voter

"To Ronald Regan, America was good. Reagan refuted the denunciation of traditional mores, of manhood, of the American nation. In Reagans view, a white American man did not owe all others his constant contrition. He did not have to go through life paying interest on older white men's brutalities in generations past...."

Interesting what is happening with the non-partisan California redistricting commission.

California's eight new redistricting commission members and six others they've tentatively chosen to fill out the panel appear to be well-educated, civic-minded and committed to the task of fairly redrawing legislative and congressional districts.

They also represent a geographic cross-section of California, although the selection process may have gone overboard in seeking a broad cultural mixture, with whites, still the state's largest ethnic group, holding just three seats on the panel.

Indeed, there are fewer whites than Asian Americans on the commission, even though there are about three times as many of the former as the latter in the state's population.

here.

James50

Originally Posted by TimWalker

The Atonement thing....

Comparing Awakenings....


Transcendental Awakening-abolitionists versus the plantar elite.

Eventually, the forces of the plantar elite were defeated.



Boom Awakening-"dogmatic liberals" villify the average guy

I have to wonder who the dogmatic liberals will mobilize against the average guy.

The answer is staring you straight in the face if you read JPT, JDG, or Publius' posts. They feel that "dogmatic liberals" are trying to mobilize all the minorities against the average white guy & that the "dogmatic liberals" have seduced the "average white guy's" children to liberal philosophy. I actually read a very lengthy post on this website before I joined (in fact it was the reason I joined) which expressed how white Millennials feel a disconnect to their heritage as it's constantly being attacked by liberals as either sexist, racist, classicist, or some other form of bigotry. And how that this was a sign of the decline of Western Civilization. That post actually led me to thinking how white Millennials in particular like Vampires and how it's a good analogy for trying to deny the feeling that Western Civilization is dead and dying.

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by Chas'88

In fact looking at it like this (using the official dates of the Saeculums):

Ultra-Saeculum: Medieval

13?? - 1487: Late Medieval Saeculum - Dionysian - Mega Crisis

Ultra-Saeculum: Modern

1487 - 1594: Tudor Saeculum - Apollonian - Mega High
1594 - 1704 : New World Saeculum - Dionysian - Mega Awakening
1704 - 1794: Revolutionary Saeculum - Apollonian - Mega Unraveling
1794 - 1865: Civil War Saeculum - Dionysian - Mega Crisis

Ultra-Saeculum: PostModern?

1865 - 1946: Great Power Saeculum - Apollonian - Mega High
1946 - 202?: Millennial Saeculum - Dionysian - Mega Awakening

When we traditionally associate the "Renaissance" occuring throughout much of Europe (1490s - 1590s) was actually an Apollonian time where new ideals were born or rediscovered. Which makes perfect sense with how we traditionally think of the Renaissance as a "rebirth" of thought.

~Chas'88

I sorta see it as "Medieval," then "Renaissaince/Enlightenment" then "Industrial" and then either "Post-Industrial" or "The New Dark Ages" depending on how our next saeculum goes.

Originally Posted by Chas'88

Thinking of it in the Apollonian and Dionysian terms I've been reading about in my Theatre class; Advancement would be Apollonian--reaching for new ideals. Atonement would be reaching for the ultimate catharsis in order to express and let go all that was done in the previous Advancement phase. Consider the Atonement phase as a typical human response to the previous Advancement phase--making what was achieved in the Advancement phase more liveable for people;

Both are needed in terms of human society. Without Atonement we'd continue to push development without concern for the cost to humanity--reaching for some ideal to shape the world, and devastating anything that gets in its path--imagine the Holocaust. Without Advancement we'd constantly be stuck in an Emo-like trance, trying to feel alive, and letting the world arround us collapse and be destroyed--imagine Rome burning.

In light of this, Boomers were never meant to build some grand ideal society--they were and are supposed to make what their parents built liveable, more humane, and reconcile whatever wrongs were comitted previously. Their job is to temper and atone for the misconduct done in pursuing the ideal society that was built in the last Advancement saeculum. Our Civil War could be said to be another such cathartic experience where we came to terms with the destruction of the previous more aristocratic way of life--as the Confederates came to symbolize.

So we've been judging the Boomers incorrectly. They're not here to lead us into some Brave New World--they're here possibly to reconcile the destruction of one way of life for another.

~Chas'88

I did not say that the atonement saeculum was not necessary, I just think that it's not me. I think that we're wringing our hands about the implications of raping the earth when we should be doing something to fix it, and by the time we get our acts together it will be too late. Optimists predict that the oil age will be over by 2030. That is not enough time for us to be dawdling.

Also I think that the UK is on a different grain than us currently. I think they were where we are now last crisis and were atoning for colonialism and WWI. That's why Ghandhi was able to push their buttons so effectively. Them being on an advancement paradigm currently might be why they're protesting over a pithy tuition increase while we're...well...not.

Originally Posted by Rose1992

I sorta see it as "Medieval," then "Renaissaince/Enlightenment" then "Industrial" and then either "Post-Industrial" or "The New Dark Ages" depending on how our next saeculum goes.


I did not say that the atonement saeculum was not necessary, I just think that it's not me. I think that we're wringing our hands about the implications of raping the earth when we should be doing something to fix it, and by the time we get our acts together it will be too late. Optimists predict that the oil age will be over by 2030. That is not enough time for us to be dawdling.

Also I think that the UK is on a different grain than us currently. I think they were where we are now last crisis and were atoning for colonialism and WWI. That's why Ghandhi was able to push their buttons so effectively. Them being on an advancement paradigm currently might be why they're protesting over a pithy tuition increase while we're...well...not.

Very interesting post. Considering how rough things are for people in their 20s, I wondered why American Millennials are not protesting the way that GIs did in the 1930s. This makes some sense.

I've been wanting to post some comments and questions, but I'm very new to operating the technicals of interacting over this Internet-"thingy". Also, as much as the dialog on the "8-Cycle/8-Turn" and "APT" Theories shows a progress of thought, I don't want to be adding superfluous, redundant, or off-topic posts. Lastly, b/c of the above stated, I'm interested in being efficient in regards to Time and Concept.

That said, in my experience(IME), I see all Systems as being the same, but different. The Sameness occurs in the Process; The Means; The How; The "Way": The Differences: How the components of different Systems manifest themselves; The Ends; The What.

So much of what I experience is Rhetoric and Debate; No Dialectic. This Thread is different.

That said, I would like to contribute. I'll use this as an initial Test for appropriateness. No offense will be taken if I'm percieved as being too abstruse. From Xer Role Model John McClane in "Die Hard": "...If you're not a part of the solution, you're a part of the problem. Quit being a part of the f***ing problem..."

I want to be part of the Solution.

Originally Posted by herbal tee

....I consider "the high" a type of recovery. A culture that survives a crises by definition has a recovery..... :

Looking at a simple oscillating wave, we can place the:
1)High: :Trough to Equilibrium.
2)Awakening :Equilibrium to Crest.
3)Unraveling :Crest to Equilibrium.
4)Crisis :Equilibrium to Trough.
5)New High :Trough to Equilibrium.


Yes, Recovery. How about RELIEF! Crisis-Relief. Not necessarily Good Times, but a Belief/Hope that the "worst is over". I'm hesitant to include the word: Feeling. The Feeling may not percieve the worst is over. The above could be defined as Optimism. I guess that's why they call it "Spring".

Question: Does Thinking affect Feeling or Feeling affect Thinking? Both? The Causal Relationship can go both ways IMO/IME.

This ties-in w/Chas' post and my comments about Katharsis on the APT Thread.

PoC67

PS: Light/Energy is a Partcle/Wave Dichotomy.

Thinking Fractally, Ancient Knowledge from Silent(War-Baby(so oxymoronic!) Joni Mitchell.

Woodstock lyrics

I came upon a child of god
He was walking along the road
And I asked him, where are you going
And this he told me
Im going on down to yasgurs farm
Im going to join in a rock n roll band
Im going to camp out on the land
Im going to try an get my soul free
We are stardust
We are golden
And weve got to get ourselves
Back to the garden

Then can I walk beside you
I have come here to lose the smog
And I feel to be a cog in something turning
Well maybe it is just the time of year
Or maybe its the time of man
I dont know who l am
But you know life is for learning
We are stardust
We are golden
And weve got to get ourselves
Back to the garden

By the time we got to woodstock
We were half a million strong
And everywhere there was song and celebration(very Dionysian)
And I dreamed I saw the bombers
Riding shotgun in the sky
And they were turning into butterflies
(Nice alliterative Pair of Opposites for flying War/Peace)
Above our nation
We are stardust
Billion year old carbon
We are golden
Caught in the "devils bargain"
And weve got to get ourselves
Back to the garden

Joni Mitchell: Woodstock
http://www.youtube.com/embed/3aOGnVKWbwc


I high-lighted Child of God and Garden b/c of the philosophical dichotomy that is Religion/Science. I understand that's not a connection for some/most.

You all have so much more experience/knowledge of the Thinking Sciences than I do. Still, I Feel I have something to contribute to the discussion from my own personal power curves: Music, Philosophy, Pop-Culture, Systems Analysis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deal_with_the_Devil

Oh, I almost forgot. Al(et al)agrees:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclic_model
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bounce
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle
Instead, biological factors constrain the universe to be more or less in a "golden age," neither too young nor too old.

Golden Age. Hmmmm. Imagine that.

Edited for Language.

Originally Posted by Neisha '67

Very interesting post. Considering how rough things are for people in their 20s, I wondered why American Millennials are not protesting the way that GIs did in the 1930s. This makes some sense.

I think right now we're looking out for ourselves and our friends first, and trying to secure our own futures and lay low. Depressing I know but that's the sort of behavior I'm seeing.

Think about the way the Brits last time around dealt with the Air Raids and I think you've got America right now.

The difference between the Doctrinal and Moral paradigms is well illustrated by two trials that played a major role during the most recent 3Ts: the Scopes trial and the Clinton impeachment. These two trials were similar in that they had more to do with public perception than real debate. They were also similar in how they shaped the coming of age generation.

The Scopes trial (Prohibition period) was a public relations triumph for doctrinal liberalism. The Hero generation (GI) became the ultimate jury, ruling Darwinism to be more forward thinking than Fundamentalism.

The Clinton impeachment was a public relations triumph for moral liberalism. This time it is the Millennials who are emerging as the jury, ruling that the social mores of the past are outdated.

[Whether I agree with these two decisions is a separate topic.]

Originally Posted by JDW

Perhaps my use of the terms "moral" and "doctrinal" will lead some to draw that conclusion. Perhaps there are better terms I could use that would bring more people on board to this APT revision to the S&H theory.

Neil and our late friend Bill were absolute geniuses to notice the generation cycle, and they correctly observed that during this last Awakening, "guilt" replaced "shame," as "feeling" Boomers rebelled against "thinking" GIs. However, they assumed that it was the nature of all Awakenings for guilt to replace shame. So they concluded that the opposite would happen during a Crisis. To support the idea, they predicted that Millennials would "rebel" by conforming.

The problem is that Thinking does not equal conformity; nor does Feeling equal nonconformity. Millennials have embraced, rather than distanced themselves from, Boomer idealism. (If anything, their conformity "rebels" against Xers, who themselves rebelled against Boomers.)

"Morality" can be secular, if it is what people in general believe to be right. Racism is an example of something that society has judged to be immoral, without there needing to be theological implications. Smoking is another example. The fact that both of these are taboo in today's culture is a testament to the staying power of moral issues. In contrast, Prohibition was rejected, not on the basis of it being moral or immoral, but because "it didn't work."

The fact that we are a "morally" driven society is evident in how political issues are sold. Our culture has no passion for dealing with questions regarding America's economic success in the future, but rather dealing with our sins of the past. "Pro-life" and "Pro-choice" have both been sold as "moral" stances, without a lot of regard for a "workable" solution. During the last saeculum, issues such an issue would have been settled quickly, while the America's competitiveness would have gotten the greater attention.

During the Civil War Saeculum (also a Moral Saeculum), slavery was of course a moral issue, but States Rights was also a "moral" issue. From the South's perspective, the states had entered into a contract and it was wrong for the northern states to threaten to renege on that contract. Neither side was particularly planning for the future. Sound like today?

During Doctrinal saecula (e.g., the Reformation, the American Revolution and the Great Power Cycles), the future is the goal. I think that this explanation works well - even for the secular side of life.

How about Manifest Destiny(1845)?

Originally Posted by JDW

Perhaps my use of the terms "moral" and "doctrinal" will lead some to draw that conclusion. Perhaps there are better terms I could use that would bring more people on board to this APT revision to the S&H theory.

Neil and our late friend Bill were absolute geniuses to notice the generation cycle, and they correctly observed that during this last Awakening, "guilt" replaced "shame," as "feeling" Boomers rebelled against "thinking" GIs. However, they assumed that it was the nature of all Awakenings for guilt to replace shame. So they concluded that the opposite would happen during a Crisis. To support the idea, they predicted that Millennials would "rebel" by conforming.

The problem is that Thinking does not equal conformity; nor does Feeling equal nonconformity. Millennials have embraced, rather than distanced themselves from, Boomer idealism. (If anything, their conformity "rebels" against Xers, who themselves rebelled against Boomers.)

"Morality" can be secular, if it is what people in general believe to be right. Racism is an example of something that society has judged to be immoral, without there needing to be theological implications. Smoking is another example. The fact that both of these are taboo in today's culture is a testament to the staying power of moral issues. In contrast, Prohibition was rejected, not on the basis of it being moral or immoral, but because "it didn't work."

The fact that we are a "morally" driven society is evident in how political issues are sold. Our culture has no passion for dealing with questions regarding America's economic success in the future, but rather dealing with our sins of the past. "Pro-life" and "Pro-choice" have both been sold as "moral" stances, without a lot of regard for a "workable" solution. During the last saeculum, issues such an issue would have been settled quickly, while the America's competitiveness would have gotten the greater attention.

During the Civil War Saeculum (also a Moral Saeculum), slavery was of course a moral issue, but States Rights was also a "moral" issue. From the South's perspective, the states had entered into a contract and it was wrong for the northern states to threaten to renege on that contract. Neither side was particularly planning for the future. Sound like today?

During Doctrinal saecula (e.g., the Reformation, the American Revolution and the Great Power Cycles), the future is the goal. I think that this explanation works well - even for the secular side of life.

Bush Doctrine(2000's)? Seems to me that it's more than Pre-Emptive Action eg: Kyoto. Right of Non-Participation? Right of Self-Interest/Self-Preservation?

Originally Posted by princeofcats67

How about Manifest Destiny(1945)?

Manifest Destiny fell out of favor by 1860 and Slavery and States Right took over.

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by Chas'88

Manifest Destiny fell out of favor by 1860 and Slavery and States Right took over.

~Chas'88

Ahem. I was speaking to JDW, thank you very much, my Fraternal Friend!

PoC67

PS: Did it? Forcing/Taking based on "God's Will". Abolishonism? It doesn't matter if we feel it's "Right" or "Wrong", especially from our current POV.

Originally Posted by princeofcats67

Ahem. I was speaking to JDW, thank you very much, my Fraternal Friend!

PoC67

PS: Did it? Forcing/Taking based on "God's Will". Abolishonism? It doesn't matter if we feel it's "Right" or "Wrong", especially from our current POV.

It reappeared under a new name later when McKinley was president & Roosevelt was a proponent of this thought.

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by Chas'88

It reappeared under a new name later when McKinley was president & Roosevelt was a proponent of this thought.

~Chas'88

Yup!

PoC67

PS: Nobody likes a know-it-all!

Originally Posted by princeofcats67

How about Manifest Destiny(1845)?

1811 – John Quincy Adams: “The whole continent of North America appears to be destined by Divine Providence to be peopled by one nation, speaking one language, professing one general system of religious and political principles, and accustomed to one general tenor of social usages and customs. For the common happiness of them all, for their peace and prosperity, I believe it is indispensable that they should be associated in one federal Union.” [Common happiness = advancement. Clearly doctrinal.]

1845 – John L. O'Sullivan: “This is our high destiny, and in nature's eternal, inevitable decree of cause and effect we must accomplish it. All this will be our future history, to establish on earth the moral dignity and salvation of man -- the immutable truth and beneficence of God. For this blessed mission to the nations of the world, which are shut out from the life-giving light of truth, has America been chosen; and her high example shall smite unto death the tyranny of kings, hierarchs, and oligarchs, and carry the glad tidings of peace and good will where myriads now endure an existence scarcely more enviable than that of beasts of the field. Who, then, can doubt that our country is destined to be the great nation of futurity?” [While not overtly atonement, definitely moral.]

The late 19th century version of Manifest Destiny seems kind of ambiguous, but it morphed into American interventionism, and ultimately into the Domino Theory (doctrinal).

BTW, what was the question?

Originally Posted by JDW

Is it just me, or did Bush 43 leading us into the War on Terror have the feel of the pope leading Europe into the crusades? It seems that we are supposed to win because we are a better people, not because we have any long-range vision.

Agreed, beyond staying to suck up the oil.

~Chas'88