Originally Posted by JDW

Is it just me, or did Bush 43 leading us into the War on Terror have the feel of the pope leading Europe into the crusades? It seems that we are supposed to win because we are a better people, not because we have any long-range vision.

There's one single thing about this website that has impressed me, and that is the willingness of otherwise conservative-leaning folks, who come posting here, to be beguiled by the liberal "progressive" propaganda bull-sh-t, that dominates this forum.

Oh, well.

Originally Posted by Publius

There's one single thing about this website that has impressed me, and that is the willingness of otherwise conservative-leaning folks, who come posting here, to be beguiled by the liberal "progressive" propaganda bull-sh-t, that dominates this forum.

Oh, well.

Actually that's pretty much what JDW's APT is "predicting".

Originally Posted by JDW

Here is a revisiting of the Eight-Generation/Eight-Turning Cycle, in which I have defined an “Age” as consisting of two saecula, each turning mirroring the same turning in the previous saeculum with regard to thinking and feeling.

A Doctrinal Paradigm is dominant whenever society appears on a linear course toward advancement (“Will it work?”), whereas a Moral Paradigm is dominant whenever society appears on a linear course toward atonement (“Is it compassionate?”). This theory is a departure from the S&H theory which extrapolates from the GI-Boomer generation gap that Heroes are always focused on the outer world and Prophets are always focused on the inner.......


.........
4T - MORAL CRISIS (Paradigm Closure)

The Doctrinal Paradigm is completely gone. The Moral Paradigm becomes so strong that society is polarized between two moral positions. A showdown occurs until there is resolution. Generations are as follows:

Doctrinally-impressed Artists (Entertainers) disappearing
Moral Prophets (Advocates) as elders
Counter-Moral Nomads (Administrators) in mid-life
Moral Heroes (Mentors) entering adulthood
Morally-impressed Artists (latent Operators, apparent conservators) as youth

With the Entertainers retiring from public influence, there is no one left to champion the Doctrinal Paradigm. Advocates are now unrestrained in leading society toward a moral showdown, despite whatever hardship might result. Administrators finally accept the Moral Paradigm as inevitable and are prepared to make any other concessions and sacrifices necessary to help society survive in the process of achieving its moral goals. Mentors prove themselves capable of demonstrating teamwork in resolving the Crisis. As a result, they earn the respect of everyone, especially the young latent Operators.

I think it will be interesting to see if I end-up falling into that catagory. I doubt it, but anything is possible, I suppose.

PoC67

Originally Posted by JDW

1811 – John Quincy Adams: “The whole continent of North America appears to be destined by Divine Providence to be peopled by one nation, speaking one language, professing one general system of religious and political principles, and accustomed to one general tenor of social usages and customs. For the common happiness of them all, for their peace and prosperity, I believe it is indispensable that they should be associated in one federal Union.” [Common happiness = advancement. Clearly doctrinal.]

1845 – John L. O'Sullivan: “This is our high destiny, and in nature's eternal, inevitable decree of cause and effect we must accomplish it. All this will be our future history, to establish on earth the moral dignity and salvation of man -- the immutable truth and beneficence of God. For this blessed mission to the nations of the world, which are shut out from the life-giving light of truth, has America been chosen; and her high example shall smite unto death the tyranny of kings, hierarchs, and oligarchs, and carry the glad tidings of peace and good will where myriads now endure an existence scarcely more enviable than that of beasts of the field. Who, then, can doubt that our country is destined to be the great nation of futurity?” [While not overtly atonement, definitely moral.]

The late 19th century version of Manifest Destiny seems kind of ambiguous, but it morphed into American interventionism, and ultimately into the Domino Theory (doctrinal).

BTW, what was the question?

I had highlighted this:
During the Civil War Saeculum (also a Moral Saeculum), slavery was of course a moral issue, but States Rights was also a "moral" issue. From the South's perspective, the states had entered into a contract and it was wrong for the northern states to threaten to renege on that contract. Neither side was particularly planning for the future. Sound like today?

Why not Manifest Destiny as the larger Theme(encompassing Slavery and State Sovereignty)?

Then I highlighted this:
During Doctrinal saecula (e.g., the Reformation, the American Revolution and the Great Power Cycles), the future is the goal. I think that this explanation works well - even for the secular side of life.

Bush Doctrine?

PoC67

PS: I'm studying the Hard History as fast as possible to try and catch-up to the Terminology. I understand Doctrinal/Moral and most of the other areas of delineations now, but I'm turned-off by the Myers-Briggs stuff. Something about that system just. .... Eh, who knows?

Anyway, I've got a couple more ideas I'm working on that I'd like to throw in your direction when I get a chance/feel the need.

I know it's basic and probably been done already, but here goes:

Train of Thought:
Age of Renaissance-Civil War-Moral
Age of Reason -Great Power-Doctrinal
Age of Enlightenment-Space/Nuclear Age-Quantum?-Hybrid Combo

Heart
Head
Enlightenment

Thesis
Antithesis
Synthesis

Looking to see how the Years match-up, but I keep that stuff way more general than most. I work better with 0s and 5s initially. Doesn't take up too much Brain-computing when juggling Variables. Whoa! Uh-oh, just dropped another Variable, but luckily it didn't break. Whew!

Originally Posted by Publius

There's one single thing about this website that has impressed me, and that is the willingness of otherwise conservative-leaning folks, who come posting here, to be beguiled by the liberal "progressive" propaganda bull-sh-t, that dominates this forum.

Oh, well.

A conservative who truly believes in conservative values should hate George Bush.

Neo-cons are semi-fascist statists with an evangelical christian bias and anything but fiscal responsibility.

Neo-cons are not for small un-intrusive fiscally responsible government in any way.

Originally Posted by Debol1990

A conservative who truly believes in conservative values should hate George Bush.

Neo-cons are semi-fascist statists with an evangelical christian bias and anything but fiscal responsibility.

Neo-cons are not for small un-intrusive fiscally responsible government in any way.

The last truly conservative president was Ike, IMO.

Originally Posted by Rose1992

I think right now we're looking out for ourselves and our friends first, and trying to secure our own futures and lay low. Depressing I know but that's the sort of behavior I'm seeing.

Think about the way the Brits last time around dealt with the Air Raids and I think you've got America right now.

Except that the air raids were quite a lot later in the 4T, and that was the older gens anyway. It's just that Millennials are awfully quiet for a Civic generation this early in a 4T. Maybe you'll make some noise later. If not we're in for a pretty austere High and a relatively mellow Awakening. Could be Atonement.

Originally Posted by Odin

The last truly conservative president was Ike, IMO.

Agreed, and I liked Ike.

~Chas'88

I'm feeling the first signs of being "under the weather".

I believe the Left/Right Political-thingy is spreading. Thus is the nature of a symbiotic sytemically-connected System like T4T MB. My hope is that it will run it's course soon enough and I will be back On-Topic.

Yours Truly, The APT Thread

PS: PoC67 says Hi!

Originally Posted by Chas'88

Agreed, and I liked Ike.

~Chas'88

Well har-dee har-har!
http://www.youtube.com/v/va5Btg4kkUE?fs=1&hl=en_US

PoC67

PS: "Now is the time for all good Americans to come to the aid of their Country"-Ike Commercial

That creeps this Xer out. Understandable for the High, but still creepy IMO.

While rewatching Ferris Beuller's Day Off & The Stepford Wives I came to a slight conclusion on how generations and the environment they're raised in are with concerns towards the APT.

Missionaries - raised in a morally fuelled building society with falling love
Lost - raised in a weathly, morally well-run, and propsperous society with little or no love
GIs - raised in a doctrinally fuelled crumbling society with increasing love
Silents - raised in a doctrinally wraught "poor" society with maximum love
Boomers - raised in a doctrinally fuelled building society with falling love
Xers - raised in a wealthy, dotrinally well-run, and prosperous society with little or no love
Millies - raised in a morally fuelled crumbling society with increasing love
Homelanders - raised in a morally wraught "poor" society with maximum love

What really tipped it off was the fact that the Xer kids always came in second place in the hearts of the Silents to a new car or some other material object--while I'm sure the opposite was true for the Silents as kids.

~Chas'88

The Neglected Voter

The author suggests that the Democrats move from Awakening-style identity politics to a broad coalition in a unifying, common struggle.

However-the author comments-many liberals think that their liberalism won't feel authentic if they give up their favor scapegoat.

(the "second largest demographic" group in the country, the white male).

Originally Posted by TimWalker

The Neglected Voter

The author suggests that the Democrats move from Awakening-style identity politics to a broad coalition in a unifying, common struggle.

However-the author comments-many liberals think that their liberalism won't feel authentic if they give up their favor scapegoat.

(the "second largest demographic" group in the country, the white male).

It's only the far-left fringe who really think that way... and they're crazy.

From where I sit, they act that way because they feel guilty about not being born poor. Everything they do and say, including scapegoating whomever they choose to scapegoat, is done to help make them feel better about themselves... which is inauthentic in and of itself.

So they wouldn't be giving up much.

Originally Posted by princeofcats67

I'm feeling the first signs of being "under the weather".

I believe the Left/Right Political-thingy is spreading. Thus is the nature of a symbiotic sytemically-connected System like T4T MB. My hope is that it will run it's course soon enough and I will be back On-Topic.

Yours Truly, The APT Thread

PS: PoC says Hi!

I'm glad somebody has a sense of humor. Ok, I'll try to do my part.

I've gone back again and skimmed Generations. It has really been fascinating to see how the Nomads have foreshadowed the next Prophets:

The Cavaliers introduced the religious toleration that the Awakeners and Republicans ultimately established.

It was the Liberty that had the passion for (well) liberty, before the Transcendentals took it to a new level. (Notice the focus on entertainment, and accusations of cowardice.)

The Gilded Nomads introduced the Yankee ingenuity that the Missionary and GIs eventually showcased. (Notice the focus on adventure, and the displays of bravado.)

The Lost, again, had an entertainment anti-Missionary focus that foreshadowed the Boomer anti-GI focus.

Originally Posted by JDW

Okay, Marc, I’ll humor you.

Gee, thanks...

Originally Posted by JDW

What is so special about GWB that a conservative should defend him? The fact that the Left hates him? I don’t play that game.

k. What's his record?

Originally Posted by JDW

He got us into a costly war with a country that was NOT our greatest threat; he expanded the role of the government domestically. He seems a lot like LBJ – just a little more likable. As a conservative, I refuse to be bribed by tax cuts and lip service as a trade off by being blamed for this man’s short-sightedness.

You sound more like a Ron Paul "libertarian" than a "conservative," dude.

Originally Posted by JDW

Be patient, though; his reputation with liberals will improve.

Why? Because Obama's proven to be Bush 44? Ah, but they still might get hold of your healthcare...

Originally Posted by JDW

Point number 2: This is the wrong forum for taking partisan political discussion seriously. For the sake of discussing the theory, I find it better to lay all of that aside (although I do get pulled into it on occassion).

This website is partisan. Period. And as such, it's as worthless as a wooden nickle.

Conclusion: The S&H theory is utterly worthless as a predictive power, save for a few folks who can rise above their rank partisanship. And those chosen few will always rank at the bottom among their peers, as stupid soothsayers, for getting it wrong for way too long.

Uh, what's the frickin' point, anyway, eh?

So the Xers give an indication of what the New Prophets will be like?

Originally Posted by Publius

This website is partisan. Period. And as such, it's as worthless as a wooden nickle.

Conclusion: The S&H theory is utterly worthless as a predictive power, save for a few folks who can rise above their rank partisanship. And those chosen few will always rank at the bottom among their peers, as stupid soothsayers, for getting it wrong for way too long.

Uh, what's the frickin' point, anyway, eh?

I have an Answer to your question, but I'll Pose(as opposed to Prose) it in a Riddle(as I'm apt to do on occassion).

An Honest American orated my Answer; 'Tis written A Wise Judge, as well.

And from a "New Man" of "La Renaissance"; Be he Senile or the Tarot's Fool.

On Inner o' Rings be etched this Truth; from Sanai or Attar of Nishapur.

THey brew it from these simple words: "Gam zeh ya'avor"!
(Don't take the Easy-Out Now, but it's here if you want it Later.).

PoC67

PS: When I'm frustrated, I'm relieved in the Ancient Knowledge of: "Gam zeh ya'avor"!
(True in the bathroom as well)!

Originally Posted by Odin

So the Xers give an indication of what the New Prophets will be like?

Well think about how the very elderly Lost were portrayed in the late 1960s and early 1970s: Harold and Maude & Pippin.

As figures who were encouraging the Boomers to go out and do more of what they were doing. At least the Lost women were doing so. So I expect some of the 1970s Xer women to, in their elderhood, influence their New Prophet grandchildren as they come of age--it's bound to happen.

Look at how the franchophile Missionaries influenced their Silent grandchildren, or how the Beatnik Silents have influenced our Millennial hipsters. It's only natural.

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by Odin

So the Xers give an indication of what the New Prophets will be like?

I think so, but that needs to be qualified. The Lost indulged themselves in partying and entertainment, in mockery of the Missionaries. However, they also mocked themselves. In other words, it was not a united effort on the part of one generation against another. (Also, the Missionaries had a clue as to what was up.)

The Boomers, on the other hand, mocked the GIs (who had no idea what was happening), and definitely not themselves. Therefore they were a dominant force in a way that the Lost could never be.

Xers’ coming of age was less pleasure oriented (so they wouldn’t be like Boomers). If anything it was more pain-enduring. (Again, I invoke Big Brother, Survivor and American Idol.) I would expect the next Prophets to have some of this trait.

Let’s say the Millennials establish a High in which no group feels discriminated against (except for crusty old Xers who refuse to admit it). I am predicting that the new Prophets will absolutely mock this setup. If some weak group gets left behind in the pursuit of what is best for the most, then so be it. (Especially if it a group for which there is little sympathy – hint: whoever falls out of favor during this saeculum.)

Whatever the self-mockery of the nomads is, look for it to become other-directed mockery among the next prophets.

Originally Posted by JDW

Let’s say the Millennials establish a High in which no group feels discriminated against (except for crusty old Xers who refuse to admit it). I am predicting that the new Prophets will absolutely mock this setup. If some weak group gets left behind in the pursuit of what is best for the most, then so be it. (Especially if it a group for which there is little sympathy – hint: whoever falls out of favor during this saeculum.)

Whatever the self-mockery of the nomads is, look for it to become other-directed mockery among the next prophets.

That's pretty much what I always thought. I never thought about using the nomads as a plumline though. I did think about the millennial high as one of little discrimination. Millennials are almost color blind to the point they can joke about it and not feel bad, meaning that don't have any deep seeded anomosity toward most groups. I could totally see the prophets feeling oppressed by the fact that you can't say anything bad about what someone else thinks even if it is completely stupid. It will probably be a reason oriented awakening.

Originally Posted by JDW

I think so, but that needs to be qualified. The Lost indulged themselves in partying and entertainment, in mockery of the Missionaries. However, they also mocked themselves. In other words, it was not a united effort on the part of one generation against another. (Also, the Missionaries had a clue as to what was up.)

The Boomers, on the other hand, mocked the GIs (who had no idea what was happening), and definitely not themselves. Therefore they were a dominant force in a way that the Lost could never be.

Xers’ coming of age was less pleasure oriented (so they wouldn’t be like Boomers). If anything it was more pain-enduring. (Again, I invoke Big Brother, Survivor and American Idol.) I would expect the next Prophets to have some of this trait.

Let’s say the Millennials establish a High in which no group feels discriminated against (except for crusty old Xers who refuse to admit it). I am predicting that the new Prophets will absolutely mock this setup. If some weak group gets left behind in the pursuit of what is best for the most, then so be it. (Especially if it a group for which there is little sympathy – hint: whoever falls out of favor during this saeculum.)

Whatever the self-mockery of the nomads is, look for it to become other-directed mockery among the next prophets.

Sh*t, if that's true I'm really gonna hate the next awakening.

Originally Posted by Odin

Sh*t, if that's true I'm really gonna hate the next awakening.

The role of the Civic IS to hate the Awakening.

Originally Posted by Odin

Sh*t, if that's true I'm really gonna hate the next awakening.

I'm sure you'll find a way to get over that. I know I'll try.

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by The Wonkette

The role of the Civic IS to hate the Awakening.

You know what's interesting for me, is being an INFJ, the idealist and prophet, of the myers briggs preferences, yet, I too am not looking forward to the next awakening myself.

Being on this site made me realized that most of what I loved about the last awakening, in song and movies, came from the Silent still being artistic during that time.

Originally Posted by Chas'88

I'm sure you'll find a way to get over that. I know I'll try.

~Chas'88

Any idea based on "The End Justifies the Means" is a complete No Go for me. I find treating individuals as mere cogs in some great goal of Progress is offensive to me, smacking of the worst forms of totalitarianism.

I am also reminded of 19th century beliefs of there being a moral duty to maximize land usage and that being used as an excuse to drive the Natives off their land and to rape the environment in the name of "progress". I guess that puts me squarely in the Atonement paradigm.