I know. Which is why my comment is as sarcastic as it is. Coming to terms with what one is, is a step towards self-enlightenment.Originally Posted by Odin
~Chas'88
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I know. Which is why my comment is as sarcastic as it is. Coming to terms with what one is, is a step towards self-enlightenment.
~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."
Yeah, I feel bad for civics they the ones that don't die getting sent off to war by the elder prophets get screamed at for not standing for the right things by the younger prophets. At least prophets in a 3T are good parents.
The worst part of the Civic generation to be in an Awakening is the the Nomad/Civic cusp, or at least that was true for the Interbellums.
~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."
So why did the interbellums have such a hard time then?
Born in 1981 and INFJ Gen Yer
"Hey hey LBJ, how many boys you kill today?"
LBJ and Kennedy were only 9 years apart but one was portrayed as an out of touch old fogey, while the other was cannonized as a "saint" due to his untimely death.
Such are the differences between an Interbellum and a core GI during an Awakening. The Interbellums got attacked first and got the attack full blast.
The Greatest abandoned ship and clung to their Silent younger brothers and sisters, and the core GIs got it in their time, after the Interbellums. But the Interbellums got the full bront of it.
During a Crisis--everyone wants to be a Civic. During an Awakening--no one wants to be a Civic; which is why the Interbellum later in their life trended towards more Lost-like behaviors and archetypes.
~Chas'88
Last edited by Chas'88; 12-21-2010 at 09:40 PM.
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."
Yeah, I feel bad for civics they the ones that don't die getting sent off to war by the elder prophets get screamed at for not standing for the right things by the younger prophets. At least prophets in a 3T prophets are good parents.
Repeat post?
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."
I tried to correct a typo and accidental quoted and just went with it. Anyway, I seriously think I need an eye exam.
A fascinating read by someone who apparently has no idea about S&H's Turnings theory, yet manages to capture the spirit.
Reasons, Rule and Riots: Our Societal Panic
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." —Albert Einstein
"The road to perdition has ever been accompanied by lip service to an ideal." —Albert Einstein
"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction.” —Albert Einstein
Here is something to consider:
The Wonderful Wizard of Oz is equivalent to Die Unendliche Geschicte (The Neverending Story).
In both a reactive child travels into a world of fantasy and returns having been affected by both. Furthermore, they also reflect the difference in how Dionysian Morals and Apollonian Morals are portrayed. In the Wonderful Wizard of Oz, Apollonian Ideals and morals are being presented, explored, parodied, and reestablished. The effect is that Dorothy learns "valuable" things from Oz, but ultimately isn't transformed by the experience, since she remains true to her one desire of wishing to go home the entire way of the book. While she valued her time there, she went wholely unchanged from the beginning to the end.
In Die Unendliche Geschicte is more about Bastian wanting to escape his dull life where he's bullied by his peers and ignored by his father. Through his many adventures in Die Unendliche Geschicte he eventually comes to value what he left behind and wants to return home--only to find he has to beat the clock before he looses all his memories. Ultimately he is saved through his friendship with Atreyu and is transformed by bathing in the Water of Life and brings the Water of Life (a sly reference to personal Catharsis and the transformative ability that stories pocess) to his father, whom he changes with the story of his experience--and it is said that Bastian goes and brings other people to Fantastica and keeps the world of fantasy alive.
The Wizard of Oz is about interacting with the Apollonian Ideals of Fantasy that Baum recreated. Baum himself he wanted to retell the old fairy tales: keeping the wonder and awe, but avoiding the bloodshed and other "messy" parts. The wicked are punished, the good rewarded, and the redeamable redeamed.
Die Unendliche Geschicte is about becoming transformed by ones interaction with the world of Fantasy--experiencing the full breadth of the fantastical experience with complex characters (Bastian is both good and bad--a savior to Fantastica, and nearly its dictator when the power goes to his head). Easy balances of Good and Evil are revealed to be more complex: Turning the weeping silver-spinning & ugly Archais into happy flying clowns called Shlamoofs has harsh consequences for both the Archais-turned Shlamoofs and for Bastian.
~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."
It's all well and good to interact in a World of Theory; Absolute Relatives: Black and White. When we get down to Reality: Gray all over the Freakin' place! I notice that many times I see two people talking right past one another b/c they haven't mapped-out their position in these Terms: Theoretically or Realistically. Both are important IMO.
Also, Unintended Consequences can be a real B**CH!
PoC67
PS: Is this your Individual Analysis, from a Class you're taking, or Both? If this is just you on your own, I'm going to have to post something very stupid to counter-balance your intellegence, you smart B***ard! You "brainy/feely-types" are really getting on my nerves!
Edited for Language.
Last edited by princeofcats67; 01-03-2011 at 09:11 AM.
I Am A Child of God/Nature/The Universe
I Think Globally and Act Individually(and possibly, voluntarily join-together with Others)
I Pray for World Peace & I Choose Less-Just Say: "NO!, Thank You."
Go ahead and post something "stupid" (though I don't think you should put yourself down with a comment like thatIt's all well and good to interact in a World of Theory; Absolute Relatives: Black and White. When we get down to Reality: Gray all over the Freakin' place! I notice that many times I see two people talking right past one another b/c they haven't mapped-out their position in these Terms: Theoretically or Realistically. Both are important IMO.
Also, Unintended Consequences can be a real BITCH!
PoC67
PS: Is this your Individual Analysis, from a Class you're taking, or Both? If this is just you on your own, I'm going to have to post something very stupid to counter-balance your intellegence, you smart Bastard! You "brainy/feely-types" are really getting on my nerves!)--because while I've been trained by my theatre class from Script Analysis to look at plays (and stories IMO) from a certain perspective & hunt down what the author/playwright is saying and examining only the facts presented, most of this is based on my own thoughts. I'll also attribute my analytical abilities to the marvellously thought provoking perspectives here on this forum (JDW's APT of course being a fine example) which have also shaped the way I view and analyze things.
Remember also Tybalt--not to sound newagey or anything--that I am an Aquarius. We love to stop and figure out people and things through analysis and experimentation--almost like a scientist would, though I'd never consider myself as one. In real life I like to study people and gage their reactions to certain eccentricities that I give myself, purposely to see how they'll react--it lets me figure out how they tick. However I also find that my habit of doing this is highly manipulative and a lot of times I feel guilty for having done so. So I look at stories and characters and analyze them because examining and experimenting with them feels more acceptable to me--no one's feelings are liable to get hurt.
So to cut to the chase--it's simply how I view the world.
As for the unintended consequences, yes they can be a bitch, and it's something that pops up frequently in Die Unendliche Geschichte, but not in The Wonderful Wizard of Oz. It gives Die Unendliche Geschichte a more realistic feel IMO. In the example I gave, the larvae-like suffering Archais, who were miners of Fantastican Silver, and whose tears created the highly acidic lake which kept the Silver City always clean, were part of a larger balance of life. Bastian turning them into the butterfly-like anarchist clowns of Shlamoofs, upsets the ecosystem surrounding the Silver City--causing the lake to dry up, no more Silver to be mined and thus the City can't expand or be repaired, and the city to grows dirty and falls apart. It also brought unhappiness to the Archais-turned Shlamoofs who tired of never being taken seriously and always breaking and destroying things (it's hinted at that their antics destroyed the Silver City). They attack Bastian towards the end of the novel, when he holds a fragile picture which is his only key out of Fantastica (since he's forgotten his own name at this point and humans who forget everything can't return to reality), the Shlamoofs ask him to wish them back into Archais--but Bastian can't since he has no memories left, and therefore no wishes left. The Shlamoofs then try to bully him into being their leader and force him to order them around and try and give them some direction in life. When Bastian refuses--saying he needs to return home--they pick him up and throw him around until they inadverntedly destroy the fragile picture that was Bastian's last hope of returning home.
If you really think about it, it sorta parallels how freeing any previously opressed sect of society can utterly lead to the destruction of that society (freeing the Slaves from the plantations being an obvious parallel) and what Die Unendliche Geschichte of course suggests, that one can't just go around freeing the opressed and think that nothing else will change, that freeing the opressed will bring unintented consequences that no one considered. I don't think Michael Ende was advocating for there to be a consistent status quo and that the opressed should never be free--I believe he was suggesting that those who wish to set the oppressed free should be more aware of the consequences their actions have, and realize that freedom can in itself be just as opressive as oppression. It's a very grey viewpoint and very Silentesque IMO. But of course Michael Ende is a 1929 German cohort, so that's to be expected.
~Chas'88
Last edited by Chas'88; 12-23-2010 at 04:57 AM.
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."
We Xers enjoy faux-criticism aka teasing. If you're teased by us, you know you're accepted. You may be officially a Civic, but IMO, you're ALL Silent-Artist....my Role Models(Nomads/Artists). Sometimes we Xers are really putting ourselves down, but many times we're doing the "faux self-deprecating-thingy". In fact, I wasn't putting myself down at all; I was boosting myself up by stating that I recognize Insight when I see it!Go ahead and post something "stupid" (though I don't think you should put yourself down with a comment like that
New Age-y? How about "Space-Agey"? Zodiac-wise I'm a damn baby: Aries. We're "The S**T", though!
Kinda like one of our Heroes: Rod Sterling(1924)!(LOL) Just messing w/you Chas. Note to the MB: It's Rod Serling! It drives Chas and me CRAZY when it's mis-pronounced/mis-spelled. Nice interview w/Carol Serling(his widow) on "Coast to Coast O-Nite Radio" recently.
http://www.coasttocoastam.com/show/2010/12/03
Other TTZ-related C2C Interviews can be found there.
PoC67
PS: He was born on Christmas Day.
I really hate watching us lose our Artists/Silents. At least their Creations remain(of which I am One)!
Edited for Language.
Last edited by princeofcats67; 01-03-2011 at 09:12 AM.
I Am A Child of God/Nature/The Universe
I Think Globally and Act Individually(and possibly, voluntarily join-together with Others)
I Pray for World Peace & I Choose Less-Just Say: "NO!, Thank You."
Gandalf gets it!
Unintended Consequences can be Positive/Negative/Neutral? Who's to say?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RemBy5yeW8g
I Am A Child of God/Nature/The Universe
I Think Globally and Act Individually(and possibly, voluntarily join-together with Others)
I Pray for World Peace & I Choose Less-Just Say: "NO!, Thank You."
If you talk to KaiserD2, he thinks that we Millies are gonna end up like the Progressives.
Personally, I blame my Silentesque War Baby parents who raised me with old VHS tapes that were dated 1960 - 1968, and gave me first hand perspective into their Weltanshauung.
I recognize that and sometimes wish I'd find it more amongst my Millie peers--but when I try to instigate it amongst them, they usually whimper, simper, & complain about hurt feelings. However at the same time, while I appreciate it, sometimes I still suspect that the self-deprication might be doing more harm than anyone might be recognizing. And my concern is my way of expressing that concern for you guys, but of course you already know that.Sometimes we Xers are really putting ourselves down, but many times we're doing the "faux self-deprecating-thingy". In fact, I wasn't putting myself down at all; I was boosting myself up by stating that I recognize Insight when I see it!
Most of my friends just so happen to be Aries, so yes I agree you guys rock. You might tend to get distracted a lot of times, but when you're still new to the world, you're expected to look around with wonder and awe by everything. For what it's worth, we Aquarians can get over absorbed with a problem and dissappear for months on end before we come back out to interact with the rest of the world. And speaking of stereotypes, we Aquarians are so old, we're in our "second childhood" you know the period when Grandparents play with their grandkids--just imagine how my perverted Yer cusper friends snicker when I phrase it that way.New Age-y? How about "Space-Agey"? Zodiac-wise I'm a damn baby: Aries. We're "The SHIT", though!
Quite true and I need to check that out!.Kinda like one of our Heroes: Rod Sterling(1924)!(LOL) Just messing w/you Chas. Note to the MB: It's Rod Serling! It drives Chas and me CRAZY when it's mis-pronounced/mis-spelled. Nice interview w/Carol Serling(his widow) on "Coast to Coast O-Nite Radio" recently.
http://www.coasttocoastam.com/show/2010/12/03
Other TTZ-related C2C Interviews can be found there.
PoC67
Agreed, although they might not have been the greatest parents, they sure left quite a memorable contribution to our culture. And the sad part will be that the core New Silents, though they'll start coming of age towards the end of the 2020s, they won't have their own Artist insights that we love until they start hitting their mid-life Crisis in the 2040s.I really hate watching us lose our Artists/Silents. At least their Creations remain!So I say we savor the remaining Silents as long as possible. They sucked as parents, but they gave a lot to our culture.
~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."
While Christians believe in original sin, in Islam the human problem is seen as forgetfulness, even active forgetfulness.
Krista Tippett has changed the name of her NPR show from "Speaking of Faith" to "On Being". This aspect of Islam was mentioned in her most recent show "The Ecstatic Faith of Rumi".Its 50 minutes long, but marvelous to listen to if you have the time. I usually listen to it as a podcast while out on my walks.
James50
Last edited by James50; 12-23-2010 at 08:33 AM.
The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. - G.K. Chesterton
General Thoughts; Free-Associating here.(pun not intended). I apologize for being dis-jointed; I had a more methodical way of introducing this Concept, but currently am not accessing it well from my mind. Still, I wanted to get the Concept out in The Open.
In line with the APT Theory, I find myself returning to the Majority vs Minority. As I've stated, I believe that the "Oscillating Wave" in Science is representative of this Occurance; Constantly moving to either side of the Equilibrium. In Science, at least two of our Human Senses are percieved in the form of the Particle/Wave Dichotomy(Sight and Sound), I suspect that the very "Fundamental Nature of Things" to have this oscillating characteristic.
Whether b/c of a difference in Population Size, or b/c of a Generational Mindset, I find myself many times a Contrarian:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contrarian
Contrarianism: The Great Equalizer.
Not to say that I follow the Wiki Definition per se, but that I often simply don't Trust "The Majority". I want my SPACE both physically and psychologically(intellectually). In the Stock Market, the Contrarian is ALWAYS correct; The problem is only one of Timeframe. Keynes says:
“The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent.”
A little OT, but an interesting take on Economic Intellectuals(eg: Krugman(dumb***)): Reason defined by request, but not on this Thread.
http://www.thefreemanonline.org/feat...ns-and-keynes/
As the Majority becomes the Norm, I percieve Minority Groups seem to "spring-up" from no-where; "Nature abhors a Vacuum". But likewise, once the Minority Group becomes the Norm(New Majority), Whammo! New Minority Groups appear. Counter-Culture Cyclicality. Hipster vs Anti-Hipster. When Anti-Hipster becomes "Hip", the "Neo"-Hipster shall appear. Then, the Anti-Neo-Hipster. Rinse and repeat.
Anyway, so I want my SPACE, but not too much! Physical Space is fine for Freedom of Action, but also may lead to a lack of ability for One to defend Oneself from Aggression. Psychological(Intellectual) and Emotional Space may allow for Freedom of Thought/Feeling, but may also lead to Delusions of Grandeur and/or Loneliness. Thus my Zen-Buddhist "Middle Path".
So possibly, the Artist and Nomad follow my line of thinking; Possibly the opposite for Civics/Prophets. Of course the Individual Cycling of this concept would also be present, but I'm talking about how it might apply in the Generational Theme.
Do Civics/Prophets start with a Need of Acceptance; To "fit-in"? Do Artists/Nomads start from a Need for Individualism?
PoC67
PS: This line of thinking could also be described as Collective vs Individual IMO. I'm relatively confident that this "oscillation" between the two occurs. For what reasons, I'm not confident....yet, but I have my Suspicions.
Edited for Language.(Man, I've got a really filthy mouth)!
Last edited by princeofcats67; 01-03-2011 at 09:14 AM.
I Am A Child of God/Nature/The Universe
I Think Globally and Act Individually(and possibly, voluntarily join-together with Others)
I Pray for World Peace & I Choose Less-Just Say: "NO!, Thank You."
Thanks for the reference. In Die Unendliche Geschichte the forgetfulness is more about the darker side of the world of fantasy--when one looses oneself in the world of fantasy and is unable to return from it and live ones life. Like Don Quixote, which explores both the positive and negative affects of idealism, Die Unendliche Geschichte explores the light and dark side of the power of fantasy.
Die Unendliche Geshichte takes a lot of hermetic thoughts that have been perculating in society for several hundred years, and puts them into a story. And hermetic thoughts have been influenced by Islam. Most notably the alchemist Jabir, who wrote in a secret code that later Europeans grew so frustrated trying to deciepher they called it "gibberish".
~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."
A little OT, but my "A-HA Moment" occured while reading one of Rumi's Poems. I had been exposed to forms of Gnosticism, but it was that Sufi Mystic that did it for me on a truly all-encompassing Level(not merely Intellectual).
PoC67
PS: Can't remember the actual poem, but it discussed being inside a shell at the bottom of the Ocean, below the Volitility of Life....or some c**p like that!
Edited for Language.
Last edited by princeofcats67; 01-03-2011 at 09:15 AM.
I Am A Child of God/Nature/The Universe
I Think Globally and Act Individually(and possibly, voluntarily join-together with Others)
I Pray for World Peace & I Choose Less-Just Say: "NO!, Thank You."
SOF is one of my favorite shows on MPR, I listen to it every Sunday. I like the name change because most of her programs are more philosophical than religious.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.
-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism
I just meant you personally being of Silent-Artist characteristics. You're an honourary Nomad in my book. Since age-wise you would be a Civic, all you need to do is embrace an aspect of the Prophets and you're done, I guess.If you talk to KaiserD2, he thinks that we Millies are gonna end up like the Progressives.
~Chas'88
PoC67
PS: KD is probably correct IMO. I think of Millys like this:
http://www.youtube.com/v/k_CAs3q7G48?fs=1&hl=en_US
That might be only during a Doctrinal Turn, though.
Here's Civic-Millies during a Moral Turn IMO:
http://www.youtube.com/v/lS9odVqyC2g?fs=1&hl=en_US
Guy Fleegman knew it; So do I.
I Am A Child of God/Nature/The Universe
I Think Globally and Act Individually(and possibly, voluntarily join-together with Others)
I Pray for World Peace & I Choose Less-Just Say: "NO!, Thank You."
What is one to expect when one has War Babies for parents?I just meant you personally being of Silent-Artist characteristics. You're an honourary Nomad in my book. Since age-wise you would be a Civic, all you need to do is embrace an aspect of the Prophets and you're done, I guess.
PoC67
PS: KD is probably correct IMO. I think of Millys like this:
http://www.youtube.com/v/k_CAs3q7G48?fs=1&hl=en_US
That might be only during a Doctrinal Turn, though.
Here's Civic-Millies during a Moral Turn IMO:
http://www.youtube.com/v/lS9odVqyC2g?fs=1&hl=en_US
Guy Fleegman knew it; So do I.
You and ASB'65 both think that. And lately I've been seeing myself personally as an outlier when interacting with Millies of the middle and upper classes--though my age peers of the working and lower-middle class are more like myself, at least from my observations.
And really, the Lollipop Guild/Munchkins? Really? I could see seing the GIs that way, but Millies? As for GalaxyQuest, it is a movie I have yet to acquaint myself with.
~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."
As for the GalaxyQuest link--I'll definitely agree--especially if you're talking about Yuppie-Preppie Millies vs. those who "don't fit in". As pictured here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccj2BH25c0I
Here you can tell who the future Ron Paul and future Ralph Nader voters will be, and although it is Christianna Ricci and other late-wave Xers playing the parts, the same is still true of most Millies I've intereacted with. God help us.
~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."
What happens if it becomes "Hip" to participate in "Protest"? I'm not talking about the Non-Violent Versions of MLK/Gandhi, but the kind that are actively created/desired for EFFECT. Cannon-Fodder for a Collectivist Agenda whether from the Left or Right. If this really IS a Moral Paradigm, French Rev Crisis, no doubt.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_disobedience
PoC67
PS: In-line with my 1845 Manifest Destiny as CW Crisis catalyst:
Thoreau's 1848 essay Civil Disobedience, originally titled "Resistance to Civil Government"..... In the essay, Thoreau explained his reasons for having refused to pay taxes as an act of protest against Slavery and against the Mexican-American War....
I Am A Child of God/Nature/The Universe
I Think Globally and Act Individually(and possibly, voluntarily join-together with Others)
I Pray for World Peace & I Choose Less-Just Say: "NO!, Thank You."
Isn't that the job of Civics in a Crisis? To be the cannon fodder for the Nomad generals, and elderly Idealists who have war because they can't get it up anymore--even Viagra hasn't solved that problem, now they can get it up and still go to war. Such lovely lovely thoughts. Ahh Aristophanes, where are you?
~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."
