Originally Posted by princeofcats67

PS: The fact that I recognize the Value of your(et al) APT Thesis makes you a Genius and me.....Brilliant!

Now, .....Back to the Topic.

"Genius" is a bit of a reach. I'm merely an NT borderline J/P, which means that I'm as likely to build on someone else's ideas (S&H, ETG, etc.) as come up with my own.

BTW, thanks for the support in keeping the emotional elements of politics and religion from overshadowing the discussion. I've also got a very sobering 4T prediction, if you think you can handle it.

Originally Posted by JDW

BTW, thanks for the support in keeping the emotional elements of politics and religion from overshadowing the discussion. I've also got a very sobering 4T prediction, if you think you can handle it.

Do share...there are many of us who can handle it.

Originally Posted by JDW

Did you really have to do that?

You're right JDW, I didn't have to do that.

PoC67

PS: Please continue.

I think we can all agree that last GI hurrah was the Gulf War. GHWB showcased a “New World Order” with the United States as the undisputed leader of the United Nations. The Cold War appeared to be won, with the Soviet Union collapsing and China becoming “capitalist.” American advancement appeared to be permanent, even during an atonement cycle. Fast forward twenty years: America is within two years of being overtaken economically by China. Russia is rapidly regaining its global influence. In fact, both nations are engaged in the advancement paradigm, while the United States is doing nothing that will increase its influence in the world.

Prediction: Look for the United Nations, led by China and Russia, to exert increased influence on US policy. We will have virtually no veto power if China, say, decides that it’s time to unify Korea, reclaim Taiwan, or worse. (I also think we should be concerned about a rival nation that has a large surplus of young men with limited family ties and who need wives!) Also note that a China-led UN will have very little regard for any of our First Amendment liberties. The only other major player that I see being ready to have a role to play in this struggle would be (surprisingly) the Vatican. They still have enough influence in the world, especially in Europe and the Americas, that they would have some bargaining power. (As for Islam, I see them as a diversion – perhaps doing some of the dirty work for Russia and/or China.)

Some interesting ideas there, JDW.

Originally Posted by princeofcats67

From your experienced POV, 1)what is a decent website to get a good grasp on how YOU see the dynamics/definitions of U and N and, 2)How does the movement of Pluto(P)(in respect to both U and/or N) manifest itself?

It's MY responsibility to do the homework and try to catch-up; A good website that you trust will do for now if you don't mind. Once I become more knowledgable, maybe you'll be open to some more specific/directed questions....I hope.

My book website has some ideas: http://www.sfo.com/~eameece/book.htm
although my website address will change sometime this year. I dealt extensively with all 3 planets in my book, and how their cycles interact.

One idea that is more technical astrology, and isn't covered on my website, is how I decided that one cycle is more domestic and inward, and the next more foreign and outer-directed-- and that is the horoscope of the United States. The chart is cast for July 4 1776 in the late afternoon. The planets then move around the sky in their cycles, shifting their position relative to the original chart. Neptune is at the nadir of that chart in 2025, repeating its position there in 1861. In 1941 it was in the opposite position at the midheaven. The Nadir represents domestic and inward concerns, and the midheaven the outer activities. I hope that's not TOO technical! But that's where my idea came from, many years ago.

Although I think iirc that I was the first to mention a double-rhythm, others saw this possibility too, and not on the basis of astrology, or necessarily from reading my posts.

Originally Posted by JDW

I think we can all agree that last GI hurrah was the Gulf War. GHWB showcase a “New World Order” with the United States as the undisputed leader of the United Nations. The Cold War appeared to be won, with the Soviet Union collapsing and China becoming “capitalist.” American advancement appeared to be permanent, even during an atonement cycle. Fast forward twenty years: America is within two years of being overtaken economically by China. Russia is rapidly regaining its global influence. In fact, both nations are engaged in the advancement paradigm, while the United States is doing nothing that will increase its influence in the world.

Prediction: Look for the United Nations, led by China and Russia, to exert increased influence on US policy. We will have virtually no veto power if China, say, decides that it’s time to unify Korea, reclaim Taiwan, or worse. (I also think we should be concerned about a rival nation that has a large surplus of young men with limited family ties and who need wives!) Also note that a China-led UN will have very little regard for any of our First Amendment liberties. The only other major player I seems to be ready to have a role to play in this struggle would be (surprisingly) the Vatican. They still have enough influence in the world, especially in Europe and the Americas, that they would have some bargaining power. (As for Islam, I see them as a diversion – perhaps doing some of the dirty work for Russia and/or China.)

That is, I concur, a likely scenario.

Of course, our ultimate veto power is that UN Headquarters is physically located in New York City...IOW, we alone have the power to shut it down if the spirit moves us. That, and that the UN has little real power anyway.

Originally Posted by TimWalker

One has to wonder if Millenials will someday have a post-Awakening last hurrah. Will there be a shadow turning during the next saeculum?

You are asking me to predict an anomaly? I suppose if some chaotic event (paralleling the Kennedy assassination) causes the next Awakening to occur to early, and some charismatic Reagan-like leader causes it to end early, then it is a possibility.

FWIW, here is some possible evidence of pre-Reformation AP saecula:

William of Ockham (c. 1288 – c. 1348) – Advancement Prophet

John Wycliffe (c. 1328 – 31 December 1384) – Advancement Hero

Jan Hus (ca. 1369 – 6 July 1415) – Atonement Prophet

Arthurian generation (1433 – 1460) Atonement Heroes

I think there is a lot good evidence of the Atonement/Advancement idea. I'm also glad that the majority of my life will be spent in an advancement time.

Originally Posted by Debol1990

I think there is a lot good evidence of the Atonement/Advancement idea. I'm also glad that the majority of my life will be spent in an advancement time.

But you yourself will not be a proponet of the Advancement paradigm, your children and grandchildren will though.

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by JDW

"Genius" is a bit of a reach. I'm merely an NT borderline J/P, which means that I'm as likely to build on someone else's ideas (S&H, ETG, etc.) as come up with my own.

BTW, thanks for the support in keeping the emotional elements of politics and religion from overshadowing the discussion. I've also got a very sobering 4T prediction, if you think you can handle it.

Well at least your not overly impressed with yourself...

Oh and I'm completely confused by ya'll's conversation.

Please continue.

Originally Posted by Tone70

Well at least your not overly impressed with yourself...

Oh and I'm completely confused by ya'll's conversation.

Please continue.

I was reading Neil Howe's blog, and he puts it in terms that anyone would understand. Believe it or not, he hit the nail on the hammer probably without even knowing our discussion here:

Originally Posted by Neil Howe

Google’s recent release of their database of books makes for some interesting generational research. The Ngram tool gives insights into the comparative occurence of various words over the last two hundred years (from a large sample of books). Some interesting examples:

Try “sex”. Or try “erotic,” takes off in the Third Turning (Unraveling) 90s just as “sex” tires. Or try “love” (and “death”), which are both less used nowadays than ever before. I had a history prof once who used to say that there was a law of compensation or trade-off, in any era, between thinking about sex and death. Eras obsessed with one regard the other as taboo. In Victorian times, no one could talk about “sex” but everyone talked about “death” all the time. (Just think how much care went into gravestones and funerals!) Today, of course, it’s the reverse.

So Sex vs. Death = Comedy vs. Tragedy = Dionysian vs. Apollonian = Atonement vs. Advancement

I know for a fact, as an artist I'm more interested in Death, which usually makes my works uncomfortable to other people nowadays.

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by Chas'88

I was reading Neil Howe's blog, and he puts it in terms that anyone would understand. Believe it or not, he hit the nail on the hammer probably without even knowing our discussion here:



So Sex vs. Death = Comedy vs. Tragedy = Dionysian vs. Apollonian = Atonement vs. Advancement

I know for a fact, as an artist I'm more interested in Death, which usually makes my works uncomfortable to other people nowadays.

~Chas'88

Okay that does not help me. But I'm am slow and unprepared. Not to mention classically illiterate. I mean I can read but I have read well. I think I'll start at the beginning of this thread tomorrow and play some catch up. For now tho' it's off to read about the hundred years war.

I seem to have an affinity for chaos. Does that fit in to the theory?

Originally Posted by Tone70

I seem to have an affinity for chaos. Does that fit in to the theory?

To some degree. I think JDW can explain it better.

To further what Neil Howe posted. Here's Google nGram search for the usage/search of the word "death". And here's the same for the word "sex".

They're nearly perfect inverses of each other.

To Odin: For the first time I see how your prediction of "Transhumanism" being popular in the future could come about, and increased focus/discussion upon death during an Advancement paradigm would obviously lead to people trying to think of ways to avoid or cheat death. Meanwhile, in an Atonement paradigm, death is seen as a natural part of the rhythm of life and doesn't deserve as much focus as sex would.

One can even see this in as innane a thing as the Harry Potter series, where the Advancement paradigm Voldemort is villified for trying to cheat Death, while the Atonement paradigm Dumbledore and Harry come to accept it as just another part of the "Circle of Life".

Even in "A Series of Unfortunate Events" you see a newly developed focus on examining the subject of Death. And this is something that's being aimed at children.

Notice how I keep wanting to capitalize and characterize the word death.

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by Chas'88

To Odin: For the first time I see how your prediction of "Transhumanism" being popular in the future could come about, and increased focus/discussion upon death during an Advancement paradigm would obviously lead to people trying to think of ways to avoid or cheat death. Meanwhile, in an Atonement paradigm, death is seen as a natural part of the rhythm of life and doesn't deserve as much focus as sex would.

One can even see this in as innane a thing as the Harry Potter series, where the Advancement paradigm Voldemort is villified for trying to cheat Death, while the Atonement paradigm Dumbledore and Harry come to accept it as just another part of the "Circle of Life".

Even in "A Series of Unfortunate Events" you see a newly developed focus on examining the subject of Death. And this is something that's being aimed at children.

Notice how I keep wanting to capitalize and characterize the word death.

~Chas'88

I agree. I have noticed that Transhumanism is most popular among Xers, which are an "Acheivement" generation, most Boomers, both Blue and Red, vilify it viciously. In the next 1T I expect Millie and Homie Transhumanists to be similar culturally to the GI and Silent Beatnik hipsters.

Originally Posted by Odin

I agree. I have noticed that Transhumanism is most popular among Xers, which are an "Acheivement" generation, most Boomers, both Blue and Red, vilify it viciously. In the next 1T I expect Millie and Homie Transhumanists to be similar culturally to the GI and Silent Beatnik hipsters.

Boomers, Silents, and GIs all villified it.

~Chas'88

Instead we've become the sperm bank for other nations' Manufactoring Base.

~Chas'88

Another example of the paradigm contrast is Jurassic Park, with John Hammond, a GI and Advancer, and Ian Malcolm, a Boomer and Atoner.

Hammond telling Elie Satler that "creation is an act of sheer will, next time it will be flawless" is pretty much the mission statement of Great Power Advancement Paradigm. Malcolm's criticism of attempts to control nature ("Life breaks free ...Life finds a way"), on the other hand, is classic Atonement Boomer thinking.

Originally Posted by JDW

This discussion is helping me to come to a better definition of Left and Right (although it may open up a discussion of which type of saeculum the Nazis were part). The Soviets attached themselves to the plight of the workers (which was a genuine concern), while the Nazis attached themselves to the legitimate moral and security concerns of conservative citizens and military patriots. The marketing was different, but the results were more or less the same.

Not to get too OT, but I'm glad this post is in here b/c it really helped me understand that the Awakening was composed of both a Moral Left and a Moral Right. My Nomad Xer POV sees them as pretty much identical. The same is true for Nazi Germany and Communist Russia. They are the same.

PoC67

PS: This is what I mean when I say Collectivism vs Individualism. Prophet Boomers/Moral Collectivists; Nomad Xers/Doctrinal Individualists?

I guess for those that don't connect with Collective, One could use the Term: Society. The Society vs The Individual.

The Society: That sounds so spooky to this Nomad Xer! Reminds me of some kinda Charlie Manson-thingy! Helter Skelter!
http://www.youtube.com/v/Ih6s9VHzAfo?fs=1&hl=en_US
Oddly appropriate Lyrics Generational speaking in an abstruse kinda way! Kinda Cool!

JDW, Maybe it's just the Nomad Xer in me, but I have a difficult time with these Terms Guilt/Shame i/r/t the APT. I'm still studying the differences, but I was wondering if you might be willing to expound on the Terms as you see them within your APT if you get a chance.

Also, I would be interested in knowing your thoughts concerning Guilt/Shame i/r/t the Individual vs the Collective. There seems to be some debate as to which Term applies to which Entity.

I also am interested in what you think concerning the Concept of "Helping/Hurting". Personally, I believe the two are a Pair of Opposites IOW, not objective in and of themselves. It really depends on whether or not One "wants" to be helped. I suspect that most would deem this as somewhat of a given, but understand that Some have a streak of Self-Reliance and may not necessarily "want" to be helped; Instead opting to overcome the perceived Adversity on One's own.

Could it be that some have consistently experienced "Help" that they have become "accustomed" to the Occurance and might "Expect" a continuation of said Occurance? Might that person cease to feel "Guilt/Shame"? Is there a difference in the feelings i/r/t "asking" and "receiving" Help?

Is the Guilt/Shame Occurance a quasi-Societal/Individual Institution so to speak?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shame_society
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilt_society

PoC67

PS:
I apologize for any inconvenience due to my ignorance in this matter!
I feel so "Guilty", but am not "Ashamed"!

"Reputation is what others know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself." Aral Vorkosigan in Bujold's "A Civil Campaign."

Guilt is what you feel when you violate your own internal code of honor, whether you've been caught or not. Shame is what you feel when you get caught doing something others will criticize you for, whether it's dishonorable, or merely embarrassing.

In Early Medieval literature, they were one and the same. Moderns make the distinction - as did many classical writers.

Originally Posted by The Grey Badger

"Reputation is what others know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself." Aral Vorkosigan in Bujold's "A Civil Campaign."

Guilt is what you feel when you violate your own internal code of honor, whether you've been caught or not. Shame is what you feel when you get caught doing something others will criticize you for, whether it's dishonorable, or merely embarrassing.

In Early Medieval literature, they were one and the same. Moderns make the distinction - as did many classical writers.

Just to add to GB: guilt comes from inside a person and shame from outside. One generalization is that we in the west have more a guilt based culture whereas in Asia, particularly Japan, they have a shame based culture.

James50

And pre-WWII Japanese sentiment apparently was "There is no shame away from home." I don't know if that remains today. Or, with today's social media, if it even can.