I asked my girlfriend which was worse to talk about and she said what I thought she would, "Both"

There are plenty of examples of lack of respect for human life.
-"Death Rooms" in hospitals. If you can't pay your bill and are dying they put you in a room to die even if they can help the person.

-This is a personal example. I had a couple of friends from America. I knew them because Nancy (my fiance) was tutoring them in Chinese. They were English teachers at a training school. Well, the guy comes down with apendicitus and goes to the hospital and the doctors said they were going to take his apendex out right away. Then there boss shows up and talks to the doctors and after that they decided to give him some antibiotics and see if it went away. (We all know that is BS)
It turns out what the problem was was that the school was supposed to take out an insurance policy on them and hadn't. That is the law for hiring foriegn teachers. So they were uninsured and didn't know it. They ended up getting the surgery and they did a bad job and it wasn't draining properly. So they get worried because the school had been getting in the way the whole time so they decided to sneak out of the country to get proper care. Their ended being a big show down between the school, the police and some of my friends legally that is. And they paid a fine to get out of their contract. Well afterwards the lady from the school attacked my friends who were helping the couple get out of the country and they had police over keeping an eye on them and they talked to their land lady who luckily defended them.
Anyway, this type of thing is very common. I was talking to the wife on the phone and she told me all this and I said, "That's what it's like here." and she said that "The scariest thing was that nobody she talked to was surprized about all this"

-Workers die on the job all the time. Some workers died just up from my house last year because some equipement broke and they drown. Safety standards are horrible.

I can't think of anymore, but I think you get the jist of it.

Originally Posted by Chas'88

Why am I obsessing over the "primordial chaos"? Every mythological creation story begins with primordial chaos out of which a new order is born. The next new order will most likely not only redefine Western Civilization--it'll also most likely make Christianity irrelevant. Astrologers talk about it as the "Age of Aquarius". With the Age of Pisces (the Fish) being the Christian era.

This is something I'd like to think about further before posting here about. It's still an idea of mine under construction.

~Chas'88

Please, don't make me talk about Christianity on this thread too. We will always be around, but probably won't be the majority though. Along with another possibity that Christianity center won't be America as it is now. People have been proclaiming the death of Christianity for a long time, but we have endured either by covering our ears or digging deeper.

I wasn't going to. And I myself am a Christian. And quite frankly I don't forsee it happening in any of our lifetimes. At the same time I see where the cultural momentum is gathering--although it will take several generations to manifest itself.

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by Chas'88

I wasn't going to. And I myself am a Christian. And quite frankly I don't forsee it happening in any of our lifetimes. At the same time I see where the cultural momentum is gathering--although it will take several generations to manifest itself.

~Chas'88

That first line was a joke refering to another thread where I got sucked into debating that stuff because of some blanket claims. I just need to use the emoticons more.

To compare Christianity's development to the theory. The Reformation started off Christianity's Unraveling--many splintering viewpoints until every person has their own "definition" or singular viewpoint about what it means to be a Christian. I'd say that currently we're in Christianity's Crisis. The Great Schism marked the beginning of Christianity's Awakening as a movement. And the fall of Rome marked the Recovery of Christianity. Christianity itself was discovered during the Pagan Rome's Cultural Crisis.

These of course are very "general" dates and only loosely looked at. And these are cultural movements which take several hundreds of years to evolve and reach their conclusion--something I've been noticing quite a lot. Right now we live culturally in a post-Missionary Advant-Gard culture which extends from all the Advant Gard movements of the turn of the twentieth century: Bohemians in Paris, Vienna Secession in Vienna, etc. All of which were founded on the re-examination of Western Culture through interaction with Eastern cultures (especially Japan) and the philosophical development of Nietzsche. Before that we lived in a post-Reformation culture.

And of course Christianity is always going to be around. Afterall, just because Christianity became the majority religion doesn't mean that Paganism completely died out. And that is all I will say on the subject.

Look for a thread about the longer Cultural Turnings that occur in society eventually (once I do more research). In terms of generations--cultural turnings take much longer I'm finding & are completed over many saeculums & generations.

~Chas'88

I don't think there will be a great reversal back to the religion of our forefathers. There just seems to be too much momentum in the opposite direction. Europe is a post Christian society that is ahead of us on the same road to whatever end. In the European mind belief in God is about as likely as belief in fairies. To most Americans the idea of God is at least something to consider.

Now I do think for a while there will be a Christian segment of each awakening. Many Christian awakenings have back to bible movements which I think the young prophets initiate because their civic parents hadn't thought about it all that much. If the millennials ever go back to church if won't be to "feed themselves" but to get back to some basic values.

One thing I have thought about Christianity through adulthood is that it works best as counter culture. The places where Christianity grows the fastest are often places where it is illegal to belief it. So in a lot of ways Christianity is not meant to be a religion to rule by. If a state has Christian rule it not only hurts the state, but it hurts the church as well. Seperation of Church and State really serves both institutions.

Originally Posted by pizal81

Please, don't make me talk about Christianity on this thread too. We will always be around, but probably won't be the majority though. Along with another possibity that Christianity center won't be America as it is now. People have been proclaiming the death of Christianity for a long time, but we have endured either by covering our ears or digging deeper.

A christian voice will always be around, but I do see what Chas says about the age of Aquarius and believe that there will be a new dominant and more global religion, practice or philosophy. Shoot I think thats even predicted in the Bible.

Consider how the statue depicting eras in Daniel's dream works. I need to get more into that because my thoughts on that statue and Daniel's dream is related to this thread and reigns of new power structures.

Originally Posted by pizal81

So in a lot of ways Christianity is not meant to be a religion to rule by. If a state has Christian rule it not only hurts the state, but it hurts the church as well. Seperation of Church and State really serves both institutions.

I fully agree with this. I believe Christianity went down hill when Constantine made it official.

I loved it when POC posted Jesus' political party results as "0" party.

I think Jesus wasn't trying to get involved in the system during that time. He kept reminding his followers to seek another Kingdom according to Matthew 6:33

Originally Posted by millennialX

I fully agree with this. I believe Christianity went down hill when Constantine made it official.

I loved it when POC posted Jesus' political party results as "0" party.

I think Jesus wasn't trying to get involved in the system during that time. He kept reminding his followers to seek another Kingdom according to Matthew 6:33

Exactly, and from real life and as illustrated on other threads it is not a good witness to the rest of the world. People would be much more likely to consider Christ if they didn't think Christians were trying to take over the world. People are completely turned off by the Christian right or whatever political believers are called.

Originally Posted by Chas'88

An epiphany just hit me. I was going to wittily reply that we'll all have Edgar Allen Poe for kids. As I was writing this I heard in my head a quote from Beetlejuice where he goes on about saying how he likes the Deets' "Edgar Allen Poe daughter". And inspiration hit me.

We can surmise that Prophets look to their "grandparents" i.e. previous Nomads for inspiration in their revolt. The connection between the Lost & the Boomers is something that's popping up in ways I never thought of before as I review Boomer focused materials. In fact I wouldn't even just limit it to the general interaction between Nomads and Prophets, but every generation is inspired by their "grandparent" generation. Hence the Millennials reference the Silents in their tastes, their cultural critiques, fashions, worldview, etc. The New Silents (little kids right now) will reference the Boomers. The Xers reference the GIs. The Boomers the Lost. The Silents the Missionaries. This is especially true concerning each generation's counter culture I've noticed. Silents for example had strong ties to a French-focused counter-culture akin to the Missionaries & their love affair with Paris (Gertrude Stein).

So what we might expect of the next Prophets is for them to look up the Gen X's countercultures and bring them back with a new way. So I expect to see a revival of Goths (perhaps?) when they start coming of age. Just imagine protesting Goths... that'll blow away the minds of most of the Milliennial Generation who know the Xer version of the Goth. Again, the New Prophets, if they take it--for all I know they could instead choose Big Hair and Metal bands--will remake the image of the Goth & make it their own, like Millies have made Beatniks/Hipsters their own. But the inspiration will be from Grandma & Grandpa. You see what I'm saying/thinking?

Again, biased opinion.

~Chas'88

This is very interesting, I do feel very influenced by the Silents and I have great respect and reverence for Silent and (Greatest Cusp) philosophers, scientists, and intellectuals and their ideas.

In an advancement seaculum is that they are more likely to write about death. For instance, in china sex and death are both not part of polite conversation, but I wonder if I started reading Chinese modern literature if I would see a death theme coming out because the ngrams scans books, no?
It is clear to me that China is in an advancement saeculum they talk about how they can do anything and it usually makes Americans just roll their eyes. I do maintain that Chinese seem to lack the respect for human life that Americans have and that is the main difference outside the rhetoric. In short, I'm really confused about the role death plays in advancement.

Originally Posted by pizal81

In an advancement seaculum is that they are more likely to write about death. For instance, in china sex and death are both not part of polite conversation, but I wonder if I started reading Chinese modern literature if I would see a death theme coming out because the ngrams scans books, no?
It is clear to me that China is in an advancement saeculum they talk about how they can do anything and it usually makes Americans just roll their eyes. I do maintain that Chinese seem to lack the respect for human life that Americans have and that is the main difference outside the rhetoric. In short, I'm really confused about the role death plays in advancement.

Your post actually got me thinking & realizing a little more about what JDW is talking about. I think Death is a much more important topic in the earlier part of the Advancement Saeculum than the latter part which you're currently experience. In fact I'd say that there's alternating between the two. I'd say it goes like this:

Advancement Paradigm One: Death
Advancement Paradigm Two: Sex
Atonement Paradigm One: Sex
Atonement Paradigm Two: Death

So I'd say from the Atonement Unraveling through to the Advancement Awakening a focus on Death is prevalent. From the Advancement Unraveling through to the Atonement Awakening a focus on Sex is prevalent.

And the changing tones here aren't brought about by the Idealists, but rather the Nomads who set up what the next Awakening will be about through their rebellions during the Unraveling. Just as the Lost & Interbellums had a minor Sexual Revolution with their "madcap" ways a la Auntie Mame & Thoroughly Modern Millie, the Boomers had a major Sexual Revolution taking where their Nomad grandparents had gone and pushing it even further. This caused a reaction amongst Xers who have taken up the call of their GI grandparents & re-invisioned the Advancement paradigm. Their vision is what their Idealist grandchildren will gather around and push to the extreme.

~Chas'88

Yeah, if you check out the ngram for "sex" it starts gaining in the 3rd turning in the around the 1920s and there is a drop off in the 80s to 90s it does rebound, but then after the turn of the millennium it starts to drop pretty significantly. It may take two saeculums to completely shift if I what I'm seeing is correct.

Now on China I will say they are very concerned with respecting the dead, but a lot of that has to do with religion.

Another note: It seems that there is a sex vs. love paradim that is even more striking. at the turn of the millennium love takes off while sex drops off there is a small increase in the use of the word death.

Originally Posted by Chas'88

Your post actually got me thinking & realizing a little more about what JDW is talking about. I think Death is a much more important topic in the earlier part of the Advancement Saeculum than the latter part which you're currently experience. In fact I'd say that there's alternating between the two. I'd say it goes like this:

Advancement Paradigm One: Death
Advancement Paradigm Two: Sex
Atonement Paradigm One: Sex
Atonement Paradigm Two: Death

So I'd say from the Atonement Unraveling through to the Advancement Awakening a focus on Death is prevalent. From the Advancement Unraveling through to the Atonement Awakening a focus on Sex is prevalent.

And the changing tones here aren't brought about by the Idealists, but rather the Nomads who set up what the next Awakening will be about through their rebellions during the Unraveling. Just as the Lost & Interbellums had a minor Sexual Revolution with their "madcap" ways a la Auntie Mame & Thoroughly Modern Millie, the Boomers had a major Sexual Revolution taking where their Nomad grandparents had gone and pushing it even further. This caused a reaction amongst Xers who have taken up the call of their GI grandparents & re-invisioned the Advancement paradigm. Their vision is what their Idealist grandchildren will gather around and push to the extreme.

~Chas'88

If you are suggesting that Xer Nomads were obsessed with death, I can definitly see that theme running in 90's Hip Hop:

Bone Thugs and Harmony: Crossroads:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMYAEHE2GrM

Notourious BIG:
Ready to Die Album: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ready_to_Die
Life after Death: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_After_Death

Tupac:
He talked about dying in various magazine interviews and illuminati in songs.
He dies in his release and video that played ironically during the time of his real life death:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kt1XjVdyJ6o

Snoop Dog:
Released a song called "Murder was the case"

Jay Z:
99 Problems (A 2000's video in where he dies in the video)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tx1DGH3CPnA

List goes on.....

The death themes also ran in the Grunge Genre too.

So does this mean the new prophets will be a bunch of Cybergoths? Does anyone have examples from the Liberty and Gilded generations?

Originally Posted by millennialX

If you are suggesting that Xer Nomads were obsessed with death, I can definitly see that theme running in 90's Hip Hop:

Bone Thugs and Harmony: Crossroads:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMYAEHE2GrM

Notourious BIG:
Ready to Die Album: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ready_to_Die
Life after Death: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_After_Death

Tupac:
He talked about dying in various magazine interviews and illuminati in songs.
He dies in his release and video that played ironically during the time of his real life death:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kt1XjVdyJ6o

Snoop Dog:
Released a song called "Murder was the case"

Jay Z:
99 Problems (A 2000's video in where he dies in the video)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tx1DGH3CPnA

List goes on.....

The death themes also ran in the Grunge Genre too.

So does this mean the new prophets will be a bunch of Cybergoths? Does anyone have examples from the Liberty and Gilded generations?

"Bone, bone, bone. Tell me what cha gunna do when there's no where to hide and judgement comes for you"
Hahaha

I didn't think about hip hop. I was focused more on the goths than that.

Now the Gen Y Rappers...were definitely not thinking about the same things as the ones in the 90's. Most of them wanted to party up and line dance in their own "crunking way." Think Lil Jon and no, I will not be supplying an examples....YEAHHHHHHH!

The new Batch of Millie Hip Hop Artist seem to be bringing back some of the socially conscious themes from the 80's. They also where tight jeans and are very emo. Themes of insecurity and death also have worked their way back into the scene, probably thanks to Kanye West and Jay Z's return to the charts.

B.O.B
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kn6-c223DUU

Lupe Fiasco
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rmp6zIr5y4U

Kid Cudi:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrDfSZ_6f4U

J Cole:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6o9dXLNuXic

Drake:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xyv4Bjja8yc

Let’s try again to get a discussion going on “Directing”/”Directed” versus “Suppressed”:

It seems to me that Heroes are the most likely to feel suppressed among their own generation (e.g., GIs who never bought into Advancement or Millennials who haven’t bought into Atonement). As the authors point out, Jimmy Carter was a good example.

Artists, on the other hand, do not seem capable of repressing each other, although they may find themselves repressed during their first two stages of life. (I’m hard pressed to imagine a Silent feeling repressed after an Awakening.)

Prophets are perhaps the second likely generation to feel repressed by their own generation. I would think this to be more likely true during an Awakening and less likely later. Dan Quayle comes to mind as an example.

Using myself as an example, a Nomad might find himself repressed during the anti-idealist backlash within his own generation. It seems to have gone away since 9/11.

Again, I'd like to hear from others on this.

Originally Posted by JDW

Let’s try again to get a discussion going on “Directing”/”Directed” versus “Suppressed”:

It seems to me that Heroes are the most likely to feel suppressed among their own generation (e.g., GIs who never bought into Advancement or Millennials who haven’t bought into Atonement). As the authors point out, Jimmy Carter was a good example.

Artists, on the other hand, do not seem capable of repressing each other, although they may find themselves repressed during their first two stages of life. (I’m hard pressed to imagine a Silent feeling repressed after an Awakening.)

Prophets are perhaps the second likely generation to feel repressed by their own generation. I would think this to be more likely true during an Awakening and less likely later. Dan Quayle comes to mind as an example.

Using myself as an example, a Nomad might find himself repressed during the anti-idealist backlash within his own generation. It seems to have gone away since 9/11.

Again, I'd like to hear from others on this.

JDW, can you please supply some more examples of atoning civics and nomads? That would help me dive into the discussion of repressed, etc.

For example, how did atonement work with the Glorious Generation?

How advancement works, comes easy for me.

Originally Posted by millennialX

JDW, can you please supply some more examples of atoning civics and nomads? That would help me dive into the discussion of repressed, etc.

For example, how did atonement work with the Glorious Generation?

How advancement works, comes easy for me.

I’ve been following the discussion on sex versus death without having any great epiphany on the subject. However, it does seem to work for Nomads:

Sex counters Advancement for an “Atonement” Nomad, while death counters Atonement for an “Advancement” Nomad. It was the partying “atoning” Lost that fueled the roaring ‘20s, just as nihilistic “advancing” Xers fueled the ‘80s culture. (There is obvious irony in the A/A labels.)

It’s hard to come up with many historical examples of atoning Heroes, but study Cotton Mather and his contemporaries. What I think you will find is that GI and Republican hubris is replaced by something of a self-righteous tone. I use that term non-critically, but I think that it fits Jimmy Carter, and I can see can see Millennials later frowning on “greedy and uncaring” advancement Prophets later on. (I’m equivocating on whether Grover Cleveland falls into that category.)

Originally Posted by JDW

I’ve been following the discussion on sex versus death without having any great epiphany on the subject. However, it does seem to work for Nomads:

Sex counters Advancement for an “Atonement” Nomad, while death counters Atonement for an “Advancement” Nomad. It was the partying “atoning” Lost that fueled the roaring ‘20s, just as nihilistic “advancing” Xers fueled the ‘80s culture. (There is obvious irony in the A/A labels.)

It’s hard to come up with many historical examples of atoning Heroes, but study Cotton Mather and his contemporaries. What I think you will find is that GI and Republican hubris is replaced by something of a self-righteous tone. I use that term non-critically, but I think that it fits Jimmy Carter, and I can see can see Millennials later frowning on “greedy and uncaring” advancement Prophets later on. (I’m equivocating on whether Grover Cleveland falls into that category.)

I remember reading that Franklin (Advancement Prophet) called Cotton Mather (Atonement Civic) a "bore".

I wonder if that is why I've had problems identifying the characteristics of the Chinese nomads. They aren't nihilistic, but they are the partiers. I don't recall any decade being compared to the 20s unless it is right now. (Actually, that sounds about right)

Another tid bit. I got really interested in generation X which is what led me to the S&H and their material. Before I found it one of the sites I went to was talking about how generation X wants a balanced life unlike the boomers who were more likely to be workaholics. Aside from that they also mention generation X wanting balance.

I like to throw ideas out without real conclusions if you haven't noticed. It's how extroverts think best.

Originally Posted by pizal81

I like to throw ideas out without real conclusions if you haven't noticed. It's how extroverts think best.

That's the majority of my posts.

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by Odin

I remember reading that Franklin (Advancement Prophet) called Cotton Mather (Atonement Civic) a "bore".

I looked him up on wikipedia and got bored. Really? Is this our best Civic Atonement figure? LOL

I guess I'll try other sources.

Another example I'd suggest is William McKinley (1843).

~Chas'88

In the spirit of throwing ideas out there, I offer the following:

Jonathan Swift (Glorious) – 1667

Mark Twain (possible Atonement Hero? Gilded) – 1835