Originally Posted by JDW

In taking a look at the 1820 and 1821 cohorts (in Generations), I find myself unconvinced that they were Prophets. William T. Sherman strikes me as being very much a Nomad, having a very pragmatic view of the war (similar to Grant), rather than being self-absorbed (such as McClellen) or seeming larger than life (such as Lee and Jackson). Susan B. Anthony strikes me as being more of a product of her family than of the awakening. She also seems to have had some counter-awakening tendencies. Harriet Tubman is less certain, but then again so is her birth year. Finally, Mary Baker Eddy is reported to have had spiritual experiences at a young age, which is not necessarily a generational characteristic. None of these (except maybe Tubman) strikes me as especially Atonement leaning.

Interesting. What about Fredrick Douglass born slightly earlier in 1918?

I think it is hard to pin point the blacks, because it seems like they (we) were experiencing their own "turnings" as many rose out of slavery. It doesn't seem like Blacks join in the normal turnings until around the depression. Of course there are aways exceptions like Booker T Washington, Josephine Baker and many other entertainers/ entrepreneur types. I'm just saying things now, but one of these day's I'm going to take the time to examine this.

I erroneously assumed McClellan was Transcendental. He was Gilded (1826).

I’ve read other posts, but for the most part I like keeping my thoughts in one place. I don’t think I have expressed the idea of the double cycle being a figure eight, but here goes:

There are the two squared off circles that make the figure eight. (A picture would be better, but I will try doing this with words.)

Let’s say that the top of the upper circle is an Advancement Consensus.

The left portion of the upper circle is an Atonement Awakening.

The bottom portion of the upper circle (which coincides with top of the lower circle) is a Relaxation. [Note: I like “Relaxation” better than “Unraveling” because it implies a positive quality that people do not immediately wish to give up.]

The right portion of the lower circle is an Atonement Crisis.

The bottom of the lower circle is an Atonement Consensus; the left portion is an Advancement Awakening, followed by a Relaxation. And finally, the right portion of the upper circle is an Advancement Crisis.

Originally Posted by JDW

I?ve read other posts, but for the most part I like keeping my thoughts in one place. I don?t think I have expressed the idea of the double cycle being a figure eight, but here goes:

There are the two squared off circles that make the figure eight. (A picture would be better, but I will try doing this with words.)

Let?s say that the top of the upper circle is an Advancement Consensus.

The left portion of the upper circle is an Atonement Awakening.

The bottom portion of the upper circle (which coincides with top of the lower circle) is a Relaxation. [Note: I like ?Relaxation? better than ?Unraveling? because it implies a positive quality that people do not immediately wish to give up.]

The right portion of the lower circle is an Atonement Crisis.

The bottom of the lower circle is an Atonement Consensus; the left portion is an Advancement Awakening, followed by a Relaxation. And finally, the right portion of the upper circle is an Advancement Crisis.

Where does a shadow turning fit in this?

I've been thinking of individuals that fit their generational archetype but are in the "wrong" paradigm for their generation; e.g. Atonement Missionaries, GIs, and Xers or Advancement Lost, Boomers, and Millies. I believe Jimmy Carter has already been mentioned as an Atonement GI and a "Shadow Millennial".

I myself have run into Atonement Xers and I am struck by how Lost-like they seem, one I know is both an environmentalist and a history buff and he has an air of AJ Toynbee about him, who was very much an Atonement Lost.

Originally Posted by Odin

I've been thinking of individuals that fit their generational archetype but are in the "wrong" paradigm for their generation; e.g. Atonement Missionaries, GIs, and Xers or Advancement Lost, Boomers, and Millies. I believe Jimmy Carter has already been mentioned as an Atonement GI and a "Shadow Millennial".

I myself have run into Atonement Xers and I am struck by how Lost-like they seem, one I know is both an environmentalist and a history buff and he has an air of AJ Toynbee about him, who was very much an Atonement Lost.

But I always thought of Carter as an honorary Silent.

Alternative terms:

Architect = Engineer

Questor = Mentor

Originally Posted by The Grey Badger

But I always thought of Carter as an honorary Silent.

I think the key is that Carter is not adaptive.

Originally Posted by JDW

I think the key is that Carter is not adaptive.

Can you elaborate?

I remember his slogan from 1976 -- "Why Not the Best?". Pure Silentine expertise focus.

Originally Posted by The Wonkette

Can you elaborate?

I remember his slogan from 1976 -- "Why Not the Best?". Pure Silentine expertise focus.

Carter was a negotiator, but he was not a compromiser. Think of it this way. Most Silents tend to be crisis managers whose goal is to keep things going and avoiding the real Crisis. In other words, it is a series of short-term patches.

That does not describe Carter. Carter wanted the Camp David accord to be permanent. He has hubris of sorts, but it is a moral one rather than an intellectual one. His inability to compromise, in fact, made it impossible for him to work with his own party. That is the characteristic of a suppressed Hero, not an Artist.

If the Advancement paradign leads to a triumphant 4T...and a very hubristic Civic generation...may we anticipate a shadow turning in the saeculum following the projected Crisis of 2100?

Originally Posted by TimWalker

If the Advancement paradign leads to a triumphant 4T...and a very hubristic Civic generation...may we anticipate a shadow turning in the saeculum following the projected Crisis of 2100?

I don't think it is possible that you are going to see Millennials emerging in large numbers as advancement heroes.

Originally Posted by JDW

I don't think it is possible that you are going to see Millennials emerging in large numbers as advancement heroes.

Then how are they heroes at all? That is exactly what the power of a civic generation is, the ability to emerge in large numbers with some semblance of a cohesive vision to save society. Am I wrong?

The Green Collar Economy by Van Jones

"...while we are at it, we could make do with a lot less knee-jerk antipatriotism from the left. I know it is hard to make peace with the country's original sins of stolen land and stolen labor. It is hard to forgive its repeated entanglements in unjust wars, up to the present moment. However, the far left's strategy of trying to fix the country by putting it down all the time has been an utter failure.

"To paraphrase scholar Cornel West, you can't save a country you don't serve, and you can't lead a country you don't love. And there is much to love in this country...."

The type of leadership of this 4T will differ from the last.

Missionaries may have matured into principled elders, but the Boomer left became toxic.

Originally Posted by TimWalker

The Green Collar Economy by Van Jones

"...while we are at it, we could make do with a lot less knee-jerk antipatriotism from the left. I know it is hard to make peace with the country's original sins of stolen land and stolen labor. It is hard to forgive its repeated entanglements in unjust wars, up to the present moment. However, the far left's strategy of trying to fix the country by putting it down all the time has been an utter failure.

"To paraphrase scholar Cornel West, you can't save a country you don't serve, and you can't lead a country you don't love. And there is much to love in this country...."

The type of leadership of this 4T will differ from the last.

Missionaries may have matured into principled elders, but the Boomer left became toxic.

Right. If the civics get to be criticized for not fulfilling their "destiny" you also need to look at the world that they live in and how it was created by their elders.

But don't confuse criticism of what we're doing now with anti-patriotism. "Oh, gee, she said the war was wrong and the President shouldn't have gotten into it. Dirty leftist America-hater! She wants the terrorists to win, doesn't she?"

In 99% of the workplaces I know if the same attitude holds towards criticizing whatever the boss chooses to do, and the boss knows if you do it, too. "She is NOT a team player!" But if the boss is going off the rails, there is always - theoretically - another job to be had, so you won't be caught in the train wreck.

Or why the right to criticize the deeds of your rulers is so rare and precious - and, like polar bears and spotted owls, probably somewhat endangered.

Originally Posted by The Grey Badger

But don't confuse criticism of what we're doing now with anti-patriotism. "Oh, gee, she said the war was wrong and the President shouldn't have gotten into it. Dirty leftist America-hater! She wants the terrorists to win, doesn't she?"

In 99% of the workplaces I know if the same attitude holds towards criticizing whatever the boss chooses to do, and the boss knows if you do it, too. "She is NOT a team player!" But if the boss is going off the rails, there is always - theoretically - another job to be had, so you won't be caught in the train wreck.

Or why the right to criticize the deeds of your rulers is so rare and precious - and, like polar bears and spotted owls, probably somewhat endangered.

This is true.

Originally Posted by The Grey Badger

But don't confuse criticism of what we're doing now with anti-patriotism. "Oh, gee, she said the war was wrong and the President shouldn't have gotten into it. Dirty leftist America-hater! She wants the terrorists to win, doesn't she?"

In 99% of the workplaces I know if the same attitude holds towards criticizing whatever the boss chooses to do, and the boss knows if you do it, too. "She is NOT a team player!" But if the boss is going off the rails, there is always - theoretically - another job to be had, so you won't be caught in the train wreck.

Or why the right to criticize the deeds of your rulers is so rare and precious - and, like polar bears and spotted owls, probably somewhat endangered.

I think I'll quote you in my signature. What you say is soooooo right on the mark.

To some America is guilty until proven innocent and the sad thing is that they don't know how unfair they are being.

I know Im probably lightning rodding myself for posting this but ready steady here we go:

Colonists wiped out the native population of north America
Colonists traded slaves

Spaniards did the same to South American natives too so we are not alone there. I think the lesson here is that human empire breeds conquerers.

As far as slavery the same can be said for the rest of the world at that time. The opposite side of the shield is that we ended slavery. I think that is a very big win in our column.

The big one and I think that this sticks in a lot of other countries heads is that we are the only country to actually use an atomic bomb. TWICE!
Now if I was from a different country that would make me a little leary of the US.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki are both smoldering craters and smash cut to times square. Smiling/ laughing faces and ticker tape parades. Hauntingly similar to the scene around the first of May

Im not saying that I agree that we should hate ourselves I'm just saying that I can see where alot of other countries are coming from.

(Braces for the hate hit)

Originally Posted by Yorick's Skull

I know Im probably lightning rodding myself for posting this but ready steady here we go:

Colonists wiped out the native population of north America

The vast majority of the native population died of disease. There are anecdotal stories of Europeans deliberately exposing vulnerable natives to infectious blankets, but this only speed-ed up what was inevitable once the two populations came in contact. The arguments about "Guns, Germs, and Steel" are reasonable. The only way Europeans could have avoided what happened was to have stayed home. Keep in mind also that the Incas and Aztecs were expansionary empires in their own right. The aggressive (and cooperative) nature of human beings knows no geographic or ethnic boundary.

James50

Originally Posted by pizal81

Then how are they heroes at all? That is exactly what the power of a civic generation is, the ability to emerge in large numbers with some semblance of a cohesive vision to save society. Am I wrong?

The alternative is atonement heroes. They will establish boomer morals, not American greatness.

Why throughout history we refuse to listen to the prophets? And before you take the word prophet as some kind of fortune teller, this is not the case. A prophet is one who looks behind the curtain at what is actually going on within politics and branding propaganda. They look beyond the rhetoric and attempt to warn the people about how they are being captivated by a sticky web of deceit.

Quote By Chris Hedges:

Leo Tolstoy wrote that there were three characteristics of all forms of prophecy: “First, it is entirely opposed to the general ideas of the people in the midst of whom it is uttered; second, all who hear it feel its truth; and thirdly, above all, it urges people to realize what it foretells.”

Prophets put forward during their day ideas that the mass of people, including the elite, denounce as impractical and yet at the same time sense to be true. This is what invokes the rage against the prophet. He or she states the obvious in a society where the obvious is seditious. Prophecy is feared because of the consequences of the truth

So to change a paradigm, one has to take into consideration every side of the story, not just the one they are spoon fed by the media and the White House. Even history can be distorted, so that the masses stay patriotic and in lockstep with its agenda. This is not to suggest a conspiracy theory, just the reality of a very broken system that works mainly in favor of the corporations and the elite.

Transforming a paradigm will consist of questioning what is true and what is manufactured. Ultimately. the truth is what sets people free.

Originally Posted by JDW

The alternative is atonement heroes. They will establish boomer morals, not American greatness.

My question wasn't assuming that they would establish America's greatness. In order for a 4T to go well the nomads leading civics inspired by the prophets must save it, keep it alive and build new institutions.
Isn't the civic generation defined by group think combined with being a political force. If they don't come out in droves wanting the similar things. If they don't do that they aren't really functioning as a civic generation advancement or atonement.

I'm starting to see that all the attempts to explain who millennials are and aren't are due to them being not all that much like heroes to begin with.

After watching America: The Story of Us yesterday, I'm really proud of the nomad/civics that existed after the Civil War because only them could have traveled west, survive all of those hazards (Tornados, Locust, and living in mud huts) and continue to build the west side of a nation.

The way those civics scaled back for the sacrifice of freedom and promise of new life remind me of the energy and upbeat energy during a hellish situation that millennials we have here today. Those women definitely had a game face.

And I admire the civic energy of the Progressives to.