Let's put it this way: If Millennials do not turn out to be heroes "in the true sense," then it could mean that Boomers are not prophets "in the true sense." In other words, if the Boomers have never had a real workable vision for dealing with this Crisis, then Millennials cannot be expected to fulfill it.Originally Posted by pizal81
However, Nomads remain nomads HUH?
However instead of fixing things, they will continue the sad stereotype of just doing nothing...
Born in 1981 and INFJ Gen Yer
What do you mean by "doing nothing"? The role of Nomads is to sacrifice. If any generation would allow a cut in their own "entitlements" it would be Xers.
It really is amazing what these people endured. The first people who headed west on in their wagons in the early 1800's would have the prophets with their nomad children walking along side all the way. Many of those nomad children lost their parents and other family members along the way. And once they arrived at their destination there really wasn't anything there. They had to crave out a home and community from nothing. My grandmother told me (in speaking of her ancestors), when they arrived in Illinois, they didn't initially settle on the prairie. The settle in the timberlands because they needed wood. These people cleared a lot of land which are now cities and farmland with axes and their bare hands. Not to even mention the wild animals and unfriendly natives that also greeted them when they arrived...Plus many of them never saw their friends and family again that they left behind back east.
You want to talk about a "greatest" generation. I'd nominate them.
Mixed influences seem to be greeting us these days. As an example, we are bombarded with messages saying that the job market is improving and that recession is behind us, and yet there are as many people hurting financially as ever who are not feeling things improving in their lives. Then how could last year have been the best holiday shopping season in four years? I have never been polled in my life about such things. And now what we are being fed is that $4 gas will not deter vacation travel this year. For whom? Certainly not me and those I have recently talked to. For most a pessimistic demeanor is likely unlesss an effort is made to look on the bright side. Easier said than done unless you consider such things as that there isn't a major war being fought on our soil.
Confusion could reign for several more years, especially with issues concerning money and love of country and society. The spread of technology itself seems to have created much of this confusion, and as each new technology graduates from luxury to necessity this by itself jacks up the cost of living. Computers and cell phones have revolutionized society more even than automobiles and radios and television did back in their infancy.
If the Boomers lack a workable agenda, then the alternative is pragmatic problem solving by the next generation in line - or failure.
That probably is true.
But in regards of your comment "....in other words, if the Boomers have never had a real workable vision for dealing with this Crisis, then Millennials cannot be expected to fulfill it," I was referring to the "slacker" stereotype placed on Xers with the doing nothing comment.
In other word:
Boomers continue to argue and don't have a workable vision
Xers remain slackers
Millennials do not mobilize
We are all screwed.
I actually don't believe this will happen.
Born in 1981 and INFJ Gen Yer
Neither do I.
Last edited by TimWalker; 05-24-2011 at 10:21 PM.
It's one of those things were it's hard to figure it out while we are still in the 4T. From previous conversations it could be like one of your options or we just have to wait and see how things play out. Right now, Yers Millies are of age and acting out very similar to interbellums did during the early 4T last time. Prayerfully, the core millies now just getting out of high school will play their parts like the GI's and Greatest did. Of course this is comparing them to civics during an advancement.
It doesn't seem like we have any clear examples of civics during an atonement. I'm sure someone else can correct me if I'm wrong.
Born in 1981 and INFJ Gen Yer
S&H said in their book that the prophet generation has to set aside it's differences to take on a 4T. I don't know anybody who thinks that is going to happen or even can happen. So yeah, I think millennials won't be heroes because the boomers failed. Maybe we need a false prophet archetype. When the goal from the beginning of the awakening is not improve the country but to destroy it then yeah we could very well not have a civic generation. I mean working at a soup kitchen does not a civic generation make.
Wouldn't that also imply that instead of building, civics are tearing our country down? A possible youth rebellion like with the Arab spring and in Europe? Things aren't that bad are they?
Well, I guess you could say the globalism and connection millennials embrace would hurt nationalism. I dunno, still thinking about it because if Boomers did fail and this 4T does get worse for us to start our lives, then maybe we will move outside the country for a better life similar to how the post civil war atoning civics traveled west in order to have a better life outside of the war torn and industrial regions.
I also know more performing their civic duty outside of the boarders and helping to build 3rd world countries with fresh water issues.
Last edited by millennialX; 05-24-2011 at 04:14 AM.
Born in 1981 and INFJ Gen Yer
I remembered Badge'('39) saying the following in a post on the Consiousness Revolution Thread that really stuck w/me.
I believe that's what is occuring/has occured in many instances i/r/t intentions and results.
Tim, I tend to look at the Paradigm as Individual vs Collective. Contructivist vs Holistic(i/r/t Operationalization, not necessarily Conceptualization). Thinking vs Feeling. Logos vs Pathos/Logic vs Empathy. These tend to align with Right vs Left, but more Down vs Up/Libertarian vs Statist in my experience.(There are of course Left/Right versions of the Up/Down Paradigm; I believe there are a few on this MB).
This also clears up many disparities i/r/t other Areas of Study such as Philosophy, Natural Science, Psychology, Sociology, et al. (I regard Generational Studies as a combination of many of these and others because of the complexity and variability of the subjects).
These also align with Apollonian vs Dionysian and thus JDW's Doctrinal vs Moral, and thus, Advancement vs Atonement.
I'll even add here that looking at this 2-Dimensionally, we are able to see the expansion/contraction at-play.(I'm not sure everyone is ready for the 3-D+ models). WTF!?
MX, doing nothing is sometimes the more productive choice. Doing the "wrong" things can be counter-productive in solving an issue/problem. "Correct Process" matters. IOW, many times it's "how" something is accomplished in addition to "what" is accomplished i/r/t identifying the fundamental causes and effectiveness and sustainablity of Solutions.
Does the term "papering-over" a problem mean anything to you? How about "kicking the can down the road"?
Most of my Early-X peers DESPISE these terms and when they are enacted.
Indeed! I believe this is a perfect example of a "workable" solution to an Atonement Agenda.
Sincerely, Prince
Last edited by princeofcats67; 05-24-2011 at 05:50 AM.
I Am A Child of God/Nature/The Universe
I Think Globally and Act Individually(and possibly, voluntarily join-together with Others)
I Pray for World Peace & I Choose Less-Just Say: "NO!, Thank You."
Yeah, civic doesn't necessarily mean nationalistic. Maybe that was the point JDW was getting at.
Note about the job situation: the government --- all governments -- have been lying to us for decades, to make things seem rosier than they are. That's because they've internalized the lesson that promising the nation "blood, sweat, and tears" does not sell the voters on them. And the economists have been so buried in their own clever equations they have totally forgotten -- or are far too Platonist -- to check them against what everybody else sees.
So they go off caroling "Everything's rosy, everything's fine, overheated? Why,. no! That's a sign of prosperity!"
I wouldn't be at all confused by the gap between what you see and what they say. Why you gonna believe? The experts who have led us over every cliff the 21st century terrain has to offer? Or your own lyin' eyes?
Roar!
How to spot a shill, by John Michael Greer: "What you watch for is (a) a brand new commenter who (b) has nothing to say about the topic under discussion but (c) trots out a smoothly written opinion piece that (d) hits all the standard talking points currently being used by a specific political or corporate interest, while (e) avoiding any other points anyone else has made on that subject."
"If the shoe fits..." The Grey Badger.
We all need to remember that the 4T is only 3 years old, it's far too early to call Xers and Millies "failures".
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.
-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism
Hung-up on the word "failure" are we, Odin? Must be an MBTI "F"-thing.
How about looking at the concept in a different manner. "Failure" i/r/t Advancement may be a natural effect from a possible "Success" i/r/t Atonement.
One of the dynamics that hasn't been discussed is that ALL goals are only temporarily achieved whether "Advancement" or "Atonement"(ie: the Process must be repeated for different Variables and sometimes by different Generations for the same Variable).
Achieving "Atonement" is VERY problematic(especially at a Societal Level).
I'll leave it there for now.
Prince
PS: Is your Logic directing your Empathy or are you defending your Empathy with Logic? Hmmmmm.
I Am A Child of God/Nature/The Universe
I Think Globally and Act Individually(and possibly, voluntarily join-together with Others)
I Pray for World Peace & I Choose Less-Just Say: "NO!, Thank You."
Jeez, Tybalt, what an arcane post, LOL!Hung-up on the word "failure" are we, Odin? Must be an MBTI "F"-thing.
How about looking at the concept in a different manner. "Failure" i/r/t Advancement may be a natural effect from a possible "Success" i/r/t Atonement.
One of the dynamics that hasn't been discussed is that ALL goals are only temporarily achieved whether "Advancement" or "Atonement"(ie: the Process must be repeated for different Variables and sometimes by different Generations for the same Variable).
Achieving "Atonement" is VERY problematic(especially at a Societal Level).
I'll leave it there for now.
Prince
PS: Is your Logic directing your Empathy or are you defending your Empathy with Logic? Hmmmmm.
To me "success" would be going back to basics and creating a sustainable, yet high-tech, society that is also embracing of people's differences and quirks. A society that has a respect for both reason and compassion.
Interesting thing I noticed: etymologycally "Compassion" and "Sympathy" are Latin and Greek words ("Compassio" and "Sympathos)" for the same thing "feeling-together"
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.
-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism
Arcane? Really? I'm seriously doing the best I can to try and be "read-able", but to water-down the language only leads to more ambiguity and vague-ness. Being a fan of Etymology, I hope you can relate.
In that line of thinking, I bet you've noticed the breakdown in Terminology and Grammar over this Internet-thingy; I know I have, but I'm attempting to rectify that issue by not simply sending-off any stray thought I may have(which I did when I first posted on the Internet). It really makes my left frontal-lobe ache attempting to read my old posts!
Anyway, I believe that said breakdown in Language and Grammar may in fact be a natural occurance, not only as a Society ages, but within a singular Saeculum.
I'm of the mind that it is not always productive to change the language to fit the recipient. If they're interested in the Topic and have questions, they'll ask. That puts the reponsibility on the Student. Think of the difference between merely "Teaching"(passive student) and "Learning"(active student).
FWIW, there are distinct differences between Sympathy/Emapthy and Compassion. Compassion is "actively" attempting to alleviate another's Pain and Suffering. That's quite a dodgy undertaking if done incorrectly, much like Teaching vs Learning!
Sincerely, Prince
PS: I hope that new job at the thrift-store is going well. It sounds like a lot of fun!
Last edited by princeofcats67; 05-25-2011 at 03:45 AM. Reason: Grammar!
I Am A Child of God/Nature/The Universe
I Think Globally and Act Individually(and possibly, voluntarily join-together with Others)
I Pray for World Peace & I Choose Less-Just Say: "NO!, Thank You."
Yup. It's week 2 and we are getting more customers.PS: I hope that new job at the thrift-store is going well. It sounds like a lot of fun!
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.
-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism
Civics during an atonement 4T? The Glorious generation.
Last edited by TimWalker; 05-24-2011 at 10:24 PM.
You are right, but way earlier in the thread we were having a hard time identifying the characteristics of one.
Born in 1981 and INFJ Gen Yer
As I recall there was an Irish 4T which became muddled, with ambiguous results.
What sort of mish mash can we expect if both the Atonement and Advancement paradigns are applied to a multi-issue/multi-problem 4T? In addition, some problems, such as cyberwarfare, may not be subject to either paradign, but subject only to pragmatic problem solving.
As JPT suggested, the Crisis we end up with may be of a sort that nobody wants.
It has occurred to me that the 4T role for Millenials will be that of Fixers; in contrast to that of Repulicans and G.I., who were Builders of a grand new order. An implication is that Millenials may be less hubristic as Civic genrations go.
The Alternating Paradigm Theory APT
It has similarity to some of the scientology teachings but its supposedly quantum theory catching up after 50 years
Not to toot my own horn, but I am fairly sure that was originally me. At least, I never previously saw anyone use the term Recovery to describe 1Ts. John Xenakis used the term Austerity and S&H orthodoxy was to use the term High. I thought High's connotations were too overtly positive and Austerity's too negative to correctly reflect 1Ts throughout history, which have been defined foremost by societies resisting upheaval of, or straying from, the settled post-4T agenda.
It strikes me that whichever fiscal vision triumphs in this 4T is likely to be the center of societal gravity, and societal debate, in the 1T. My generation seems divided between Democrats with a social-democratic ("European") streak (who favor universal health care, more progressive taxation, and secular government) and Republicans who are more or less libertarians. Indeed, the Republican Party may be remade as the little-L libertarian party. The Religious Right is simply not very numerous among Millennials, as even the most faithful Christians under age 30 mostly support gay rights and shrug off debates about such trivialities as drug legalization. But which of these economic stances will triumph? I suspect the 2012 election will not be the end, as Obama will be reelected (I've thought so since he was elected in the first place), but he will, after all, have a successor in 2016. Might a Gen X Republican -- and there are a lot of them -- turn the country toward a more libertarian agenda then? Or will New Deal politics win the day for the second consecutive saeculum?
If this 1T will be, as people say, an Atonement-flavored one, you have to ask how settled the current economic tug-of-war will be. While the Civil War 4T semi-settled the question of federal authority of states, states continued to push their own reactionary limits well into the 1T (it's called Reconstruction). By contrast, virtually no one in the political mainstream debated the merits of Keynesian capitalism in the 1950s, because by definition you weren't part of the political mainstream if you did (there's an Advancement turning if ever there was one). And in the post-Revolutionary 1T, you didn't exactly have states clamoring to restore monarchy, though some prominent Federalists argued for making up with Mother England. To some degree I wonder if we won't be having the same fiscally centered discussions in 2031 that we are having in 2011. (Not that I expect nothing to happen this 4T; Congress and Obama will eventually find a course of action with regard to debt and economic growth. If they do not, we will all be royally fudged. Meanwhile, oil will get more expensive and people will continue to gradually slim down their lifestyles. But I could easily see post-2020s libertarian vs. social-democratic debates taking on as, um, "spirited" a tone as did Reconstruction- and Gilded Age-era campaigns with regard to racial and class distinctions.)
