Originally Posted by 1990

Not to toot my own horn, but I am fairly sure that was originally me. At least, I never previously saw anyone use the term Recovery to describe 1Ts. John Xenakis used the term Austerity and S&H orthodoxy was to use the term High. I thought High's connotations were too overtly positive and Austerity's too negative to correctly reflect 1Ts throughout history, which have been defined foremost by societies resisting upheaval of, or straying from, the settled post-4T agenda.

It strikes me that whichever fiscal vision triumphs in this 4T is likely to be the center of societal gravity, and societal debate, in the 1T. My generation seems divided between Democrats with a social-democratic ("European") streak (who favor universal health care, more progressive taxation, and secular government) and Republicans who are more or less libertarians. Indeed, the Republican Party may be remade as the little-L libertarian party. The Religious Right is simply not very numerous among Millennials, as even the most faithful Christians under age 30 mostly support gay rights and shrug off debates about such trivialities as drug legalization. But which of these economic stances will triumph? I suspect the 2012 election will not be the end, as Obama will be reelected (I've thought so since he was elected in the first place), but he will, after all, have a successor in 2016. Might a Gen X Republican -- and there are a lot of them -- turn the country toward a more libertarian agenda then? Or will New Deal politics win the day for the second consecutive saeculum?

If this 1T will be, as people say, an Atonement-flavored one, you have to ask how settled the current economic tug-of-war will be. While the Civil War 4T semi-settled the question of federal authority of states, states continued to push their own reactionary limits well into the 1T (it's called Reconstruction). By contrast, virtually no one in the political mainstream debated the merits of Keynesian capitalism in the 1950s, because by definition you weren't part of the political mainstream if you did (there's an Advancement turning if ever there was one). And in the post-Revolutionary 1T, you didn't exactly have states clamoring to restore monarchy, though some prominent Federalists argued for making up with Mother England. To some degree I wonder if we won't be having the same fiscally centered discussions in 2031 that we are having in 2011. (Not that I expect nothing to happen this 4T; Congress and Obama will eventually find a course of action with regard to debt and economic growth. If they do not, we will all be royally fudged. Meanwhile, oil will get more expensive and people will continue to gradually slim down their lifestyles. But I could easily see post-2020s libertarian vs. social-democratic debates taking on as, um, "spirited" a tone as did Reconstruction- and Gilded Age-era campaigns with regard to racial and class distinctions.)

Welcome back!!!

I was looking through MBTI stuff when I stumbled across this temperment stuff, that Odin, Tybalt, and others can probably explain in more infinite detail. However I instantly saw how it could be of help to JDW and his APT:

MBTI - the sixteen types can be grouped into four "temperments"

Idealist
Guardian
Rational
Artisan

Which I immediately recognized as S&H's four archetypes:

Prophet
Reactionary
Hero
Artist-Adaptive

Idealists are abstract in speech and cooperative in pursuing their goals. Their greatest strength is diplomatic integration. Their best developed intelligence role is either mentoring (Counselors--INFJ and Teachers--ENFJ) or advocacy (Healers--INFP and Champions--ENFP).

As the identity-seeking temperament, Idealists long for meaningful communication and relationships. They search for profound truths hidden beneath the surface, often expressing themselves in metaphor. Focused on the future, they are enthusiastic about possibilities, and they continually strive for self-renewal.

Interests: Idealists tend to study the humanities. They seek careers facilitating the personal growth of others, whether through education, counseling, or other pursuits that promote the happiness and fulfillment of individuals and society.

Orientation: The lives of Idealists are guided by their devotion to their personal ethics. They are altruistic, taking satisfaction in the well-being of others. They believe in the basic goodness of the world and of the people in it. They take a holistic view toward suffering and misfortune, regarding them as part of a larger, unknowable truth, a mystical cause-and-effect. With an eye toward the future, they view life as a journey toward a deeper spiritual knowledge.

Self-image: The Idealists' self-esteem is rooted in empathetic action; their self-respect in their benevolence; and their self-confidence in their personal authenticity.

Values: The emotions of Idealists "are both easily aroused and quickly discharged." Their general demeanor is enthusiastic. They trust their intuition and yearn for romance. They seek deeper self-knowledge and want to be understood for who they are behind the social roles they are forced to play. They aspire to wisdom that transcends ego and the bounds of the material world.

Social roles: Idealists seek mutuality in their personal relationships. Romantically, they want a soulmate with whom they can share a deep spiritual connection. As parents, they encourage their children to form harmonious relationships and engage in imaginative play. In their professional and social lives, Idealists strive to be catalysts of positive change.

~*~

Guardians are concrete in communicating and cooperative in pursuing their goals. Their greatest strength is logistics. Their most developed intelligence role is either that of the Conservator (Protectors--ISFJ and Providers--ESFJ) or the Administrator (Inspector--ISTJ and Supervisor--ESTJ).

As the security-seeking temperament, Guardians are practical and frugal types. They "share certain core values, among them the belief in a strong work ethic, the need for people and institutions to be responsible, the importance of following the rules and of serving one's community." Guardians value experience, and they seek a tangible return on their investments. Believing in common sense, they are not attracted to idle speculation. They are the glue of civilization, maintaining and nurturing institutions that have been established by the dint of hard work. They tend to be conventional and cooperative in their work, wanting to make sure everybody gets what they deserve, no more and no less. They follow the rules and conventions of their cohort or group and expect others to as well.

Interests: In their education and careers, Guardians' primary interest is business and commerce, with an eye toward practical applications in managing materiel. They are preoccupied with maintaining the morality of their group.

Orientation: Guardians have a strong sense of duty. They forgo the pleasures of the moment to prepare for unseen eventualities. They regard past events with a sense of resignation. They guard against the corruption of outside influences, and look to past experiences to guide their present choices.

Self-image: The Guardians' self-esteem is based on their dependability; their self-respect on their beneficence; and their self-confidence on their respectability.

Values: Guardians are concerned about the well-being of people and institutions that they hold dear. They trust authority and seek security. They strive for a sense of belonging and want to be appreciated for their contributions. They aspire to become executives, whether by managing their own households or by running a multinational corporation.

Social roles: In romantic relationships, Guardians regard themselves as helpmates, working together with their spouse to establish a secure home. As parents, they focus on raising their children to become productive and law-abiding citizens. In business and social situations, they are stabilizers, establishing procedures and ensuring that the material needs of the group are met.

~*~

Rationals are abstract in speech and utilitarian in pursuing their goals. Their greatest strength is strategy. Their most developed intelligence role is that of either the Engineer (Architects--INTP and Inventors--ENTP) or the Coordinator (Masterminds--INTJ and Fieldmarshals--ENTJ).

As the knowledge-seeking temperament, Rationals trust reason implicitly. They rely on objective observations and factual analysis in any given situation. They seek a logical argument as a basis for action. As strategists, Rationals strive to gain as much information as possible, applying what they learn to develop long-term plans and the steps for achieving them. They are characterized by a tough-minded personal style, tending to pursue power or understanding. They are often strong-willed, ambitious, intelligent, and self-determined. Subjective thoughts and emotion have no place in the decision-making process of a Rational. Driven to excel, they work hard to achieve their goals, and they do well where they can take control or work independently on a task.

Interests: Rationals are drawn to science and technology. They usually seek careers involving systems—whether mechanical (as in engineering), organic (as in biology), social (as in psychology or sociology), or organizational (as in business or economics).


Orientation: Rationals are pragmatic about the world around them, having little use for convention or sentiment except as a means to an end. They weigh logical outcomes before acting, looking for errors in reasoning—in themselves and others. They believe that concepts like good and bad are relative, depending on point of view. They regard time as the duration of events rather than as a continuum. They view place as the intersection of two crossing lines (as in Cartesian coordinates for example).

Self-image: The Rationals' self-esteem is rooted in their ingenuity; their self-respect in their autonomy; and their self-confidence in their resoluteness.

Values: Rationals appear calm even in times of turmoil. They achieve this state through an intense concentration of effort rather than through cold-heartedness. They trust reason and strive for achievement. They are knowledge-seekers who aspire to technical wizardry, and so are pleased when others defer to their expertise.

Social roles: In romantic relationships, Rationals want a mindmate with whom they can discuss the topics that interest them, which are usually abstract or theoretical. As parents, they encourage their children to become self-reliant individuals capable of thinking for themselves. In their professional and social lives, Rationals are visionary leaders, developing and consolidating coherent long-term plans.

~*~

Artisans are concrete in speech and utilitarian in pursing their goals. Their greatest strength is tactical variation. Their most developed intelligence role is that of either the Operator (Promoters--ESTP and Crafters--ISTP) or the Entertainer (Performers--ESFP and Composers--ISFP).

As the stimulation-seeking temperament, Artisans prefer to live one day at a time. They may spontaneously pursue activities that offer fun or pleasure. Playful in their interpersonal relationships, Artisans tend to be more permissive as parents than the other temperaments, wanting their children to explore and enjoy the world.

Interests: In education, Artisans want to learn artcrafts and techniques that they can use in their career. They tend to seek work involving operations and equipment, which could range from a scalpel to a fighter jet.

Orientation: Artisans live in the here and now. They want to enjoy the present moment. They tend to be optimistic about the future and cynical about the past, believing that life is a series of risks or random events without any larger pattern or meaning.

Self-image: The Artisans' self-esteem is rooted in their grace and artistry; their self-respect in their boldness; and their self-confidence in their adaptability.

Values: Artisans enjoy excitement and perform well when in a state of restless energy. "They are excitable as children and they never seem to get less excitable as they grow up." They seek stimulation and trust their impulses. Prone to spontaneous acts of generosity, they want to make an impact on others. They aspire to virtuosity, taking great pleasure in practicing and mastering their technique in the pursuits that interest them.

Social roles: In romantic relationships, Artisans want a playmate, someone who can share in the pleasure and excitement they seek. As parents, Artisans are liberators, exposing their children to a wide variety of activities, encouraging them to push beyond their limits, and guiding them toward independence and self-sufficiency. In business and social situations, they are negotiators, making the most of the opportunities at hand.

~*~

Within the Temperments you see two smaller categories listed that could be construed as exemplifying JDW's APT in different words.

Advancement Prophet = Mentor
Atonement Prophet = Advocate

Advancement Nomad = Administrator
Atonement Nomad = Conservator

Advancement Hero = Engineer
Atonement Hero = Coordinator

Advancement Artisan = Operator
Atonement Artisan = Entertainer

Does this mean that over the MegaSaeculum individual generations of different archetypes could be assigned MBTI labels, perhaps? If so...

Boomers are definitely trying to be the Champions or ENFPs of this Saeculum. Transcendentals were most definitely the Healers or INFPs. GIs were most definitely Inventors, Republicans were the Architects. Maybe this'll help in describing the Civil War's Civic generation since they would've been Fieldmarshals or Masterminds.

~Chas'88

Awakenings (which S&H described almost entirely endogenous to the cycle) clearly match the alternating paradign/double rhythm. In America, this proved robust enough to reassert itself after the trauma of the Civil War Anomaly.

However, Civic generations seem better described by the Left-Hero versus Right-Hero concept. And that is based on how a particular 4T plays out, rather than the alternating paradign/double rhythm.

So which Meyer-Briggs types would one assign to Left-Heros and Right-Heros?

Originally Posted by TimWalker

Awakenings (which S&H described almost entirely endogenous to the cycle) clearly match the alternating paradign/double rhythm. In America, this proved robust enough to reassert itself after the trauma of the Civil War Anomaly.

However, Civic generations seem better described by the Left-Hero versus Right-Hero concept. And that is based on how a particular 4T plays out, rather than the alternating paradign/double rhythm.

So which Meyer-Briggs types would one assign to Left-Heros and Right-Heros?

I think Jimmy Carter is a civic/ GI and good example of atoning civics so I'm going to suggest that INFJ is the Meyers-Briggs for Left-Heroes.

Would this be a good example of a Right Hero:
http://typelogic.com/estj.html

http://www.personalitypage.com/html/ESTJ.html

Originally Posted by millennialX

I think Jimmy Carter is a civic/ GI and good example of atoning civics so I'm going to suggest that INFJ is the Meyers-Briggs for Left-Heroes.

Would this be a good example of a Right Hero:
http://typelogic.com/estj.html

http://www.personalitypage.com/html/ESTJ.html

The temperments sort those characteristics into:

INFJ = Counselor = Idealist (NF = Idealist)
ESTJ = Supervisor = Guardian (S_J = Guardian)

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by Chas'88

The temperments sort those characteristics into:

INFJ = Counselor = Idealist (NF = Idealist)
ESTJ = Supervisor = Guardian (S_J = Guardian)

~Chas'88

Gotcha. I still support INFJ idealist but have to rethink ESTJ because I agree with you on Guardian being Reactive.

Originally Posted by millennialX

I think Jimmy Carter is a civic/ GI and good example of atoning civics so I'm going to suggest that INFJ is the Meyers-Briggs for Left-Heroes.

Would this be a good example of a Right Hero:
http://typelogic.com/estj.html



http://www.personalitypage.com/html/ESTJ.html

ESTJ seems plausible for Right-Hero.

How well does it fit for early-wave Republicans and late-wave G.I.s?

Would that fit the early Progressive cohorts?

Originally Posted by TimWalker

ESTJ seems plausible for Right-Hero.

How well does it fit for early-wave Republicans and late-wave G.I.s?

Would that fit the early Progressive cohorts?

I'm still trying to figure out the early Progressives but for the most part it works. I'm just thrown off on the whole Guardian label which does work for nomads.

How does Myers-Briggs apply to the Gilded, or the Imperial Generation (late-19th century British Nomad/Heros)?

Originally Posted by TimWalker

How does Myers-Briggs apply to the Gilded, or the Imperial Generation (late-19th century British Nomad/Heros)?

Xers are advancement, correct? Lost were atonement, which would make the Gilded Advancement Nomad = Administrator. If so then maybe:

ENTJ: The Executives
http://www.personalitypage.com/ENTJ.html

and

ISTJ: The Duty Fulfillers
http://www.personalitypage.com/ISTJ.html

http://www.personalitypage.com/html/ISTJ_rel.html

It personally feels like we have the return of the Executive/ ENTJ Xers in Politics. Take a look at ENTJ's weakness and tell me that this isnt the problem between them, the Boomers and society around them:
http://www.personalitypage.com/html/ENTJ_rel.html

Originally Posted by Chas'88

I was looking through MBTI stuff when I stumbled across this temperment stuff, that Odin, Tybalt, and others can probably explain in more infinite detail. However I instantly saw how it could be of help to JDW and his APT:

MBTI - the sixteen types can be grouped into four "temperments"

Idealist
Guardian
Rational
Artisan

Which I immediately recognized as S&H's four archetypes:

Prophet
Reactionary
Hero
Artist-Adaptive

Idealists are abstract in speech and cooperative in pursuing their goals. Their greatest strength is diplomatic integration. Their best developed intelligence role is either mentoring (Counselors--INFJ and Teachers--ENFJ) or advocacy (Healers--INFP and Champions--ENFP).

As the identity-seeking temperament, Idealists long for meaningful communication and relationships. They search for profound truths hidden beneath the surface, often expressing themselves in metaphor. Focused on the future, they are enthusiastic about possibilities, and they continually strive for self-renewal.

Interests: Idealists tend to study the humanities. They seek careers facilitating the personal growth of others, whether through education, counseling, or other pursuits that promote the happiness and fulfillment of individuals and society.

Orientation: The lives of Idealists are guided by their devotion to their personal ethics. They are altruistic, taking satisfaction in the well-being of others. They believe in the basic goodness of the world and of the people in it. They take a holistic view toward suffering and misfortune, regarding them as part of a larger, unknowable truth, a mystical cause-and-effect. With an eye toward the future, they view life as a journey toward a deeper spiritual knowledge.

Self-image: The Idealists' self-esteem is rooted in empathetic action; their self-respect in their benevolence; and their self-confidence in their personal authenticity.

Values: The emotions of Idealists "are both easily aroused and quickly discharged." Their general demeanor is enthusiastic. They trust their intuition and yearn for romance. They seek deeper self-knowledge and want to be understood for who they are behind the social roles they are forced to play. They aspire to wisdom that transcends ego and the bounds of the material world.

Social roles: Idealists seek mutuality in their personal relationships. Romantically, they want a soulmate with whom they can share a deep spiritual connection. As parents, they encourage their children to form harmonious relationships and engage in imaginative play. In their professional and social lives, Idealists strive to be catalysts of positive change.
~Chas'88

I have been called an idealist numerous times. According to the definition you posted, I would say that pretty much fits me to a T.

Originally Posted by Deb C

I have been called an idealist numerous times. According to the definition you posted, I would say that pretty much fits me to a T.

But I'm INFJ and that's also considered an Idealist of the myers brigg. Especially the "Feeling" part.

Before posting I went back and forth on whether Guardian & Rational was more Nomadic or Civic. It seemed like half of each could be applied to either archetype. What sealed the deal for me was the description of the way they went about raising children:

Guardian: "Guardians regard themselves as helpmates, working together with their spouse to establish a secure home. As parents, they focus on raising their children to become productive and law-abiding citizens."

Nomads are arguably the one archetype concerned the most with security and safety, asking that their children become good little law-abiding citizens that toe the line--good little mild mannered Artists.

Rational: Rationals want a mindmate with whom they can discuss the topics that interest them, which are usually abstract or theoretical. As parents, they encourage their children to become self-reliant individuals capable of thinking for themselves.

I'm reminded of how GIs encouraged this trait in their darling little Boomers and how it came to bite them in the butt when the Awakening rolled around.

Also, as I looked over Rational again--and its love of thinking abstractly--I remembered that most Nomad generations seem to be very repelled about talking about ideas in the abstract. Nomads have always struck me as being very grounded, wanting a return on whatever they put down, valuing the experience they tally up as they go through life as the only measure from which to judge life & the people going through it, and that talking about things in the abstract was exactly the sort of thing they, if not hated, thoroughly disliked and didn't trust. I'm reminded of the 1982 movie of Annie, where Daddy Warbucks in all of his Lost stereotypedness is asking for FDR to get his head out of the clouds and see some sense in what it means to create such a program as the WPA, the costs & problems involved with setting up such a program. FDR is caught up in only making the Americans out of work feeling good about themselves & in America again by providing them with jobs. Warbucks corners FDR by asking who he'd get to set up & oversee such a program and then FDR surprises him by asking Warbucks to over see it so that it would be "properlly handled", catching him offguard, while little Greatest cusper Annie sings on about the Sun Coming Out Tomorrow, FDR joining in and goading Eleanor & then Warbucks himself to join in the song. Warbucks does so, indicating he thinks they've all left common sense long behind, but in the end does join in the song, figuring if he can't beat them, he can join them and work out all the practical needs that need to be satisfied in order for their abstract dreams to come true.

So to the point, the Fieldmarshal, or the Executive as your page links, is listed as a Rational, or what we've deduced is a "Civic" role.

However the ESTJ seems like a good candidate for the Xer roles they've taken thus far. It's the "Supervisor".

http://www.personalitypage.com/html/ESTJ.html

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by Chas'88

Before posting I went back and forth on whether Guardian & Rational was more Nomadic or Civic. It seemed like half of each could be applied to either archetype. What sealed the deal for me was the description of the way they went about raising children:

Guardian: "Guardians regard themselves as helpmates, working together with their spouse to establish a secure home. As parents, they focus on raising their children to become productive and law-abiding citizens."

Nomads are arguably the one archetype concerned the most with security and safety, asking that their children become good little law-abiding citizens that toe the line--good little mild mannered Artists.

Rational: Rationals want a mindmate with whom they can discuss the topics that interest them, which are usually abstract or theoretical. As parents, they encourage their children to become self-reliant individuals capable of thinking for themselves.

I'm reminded of how GIs encouraged this trait in their darling little Boomers and how it came to bite them in the butt when the Awakening rolled around.

Also, as I looked over Rational again--and its love of thinking abstractly--I remembered that most Nomad generations seem to be very repelled about talking about ideas in the abstract. Nomads have always struck me as being very grounded, wanting a return on whatever they put down, valuing the experience they tally up as they go through life as the only measure from which to judge life & the people going through it, and that talking about things in the abstract was exactly the sort of thing they, if not hated, thoroughly disliked and didn't trust. I'm reminded of the 1982 movie of Annie, where Daddy Warbucks in all of his Lost stereotypedness is asking for FDR to get his head out of the clouds and see some sense in what it means to create such a program as the WPA, the costs & problems involved with setting up such a program. FDR is caught up in only making the Americans out of work feeling good about themselves & in America again by providing them with jobs. Warbucks corners FDR by asking who he'd get to set up & oversee such a program and then FDR surprises him by asking Warbucks to over see it so that it would be "properlly handled", catching him offguard, while little Greatest cusper Annie sings on about the Sun Coming Out Tomorrow, FDR joining in and goading Eleanor & then Warbucks himself to join in the song. Warbucks does so, indicating he thinks they've all left common sense long behind, but in the end does join in the song, figuring if he can't beat them, he can join them and work out all the practical needs that need to be satisfied in order for their abstract dreams to come true.

So to the point, the Fieldmarshal, or the Executive as your page links, is listed as a Rational, or what we've deduced is a "Civic" role.

However the ESTJ seems like a good candidate for the Xer roles they've taken thus far. It's the "Supervisor".

http://www.personalitypage.com/html/ESTJ.html

~Chas'88

Great read, agreed and glad you're back for a little while. Your post are welcomed in my book. That said...can I just be a rational guardian? Is that to much to ask? Both parenting styles alone sound...well I don't know how they sound, and...

....so what do you think works for the civic?

Originally Posted by millennialX

Great read, agreed and glad you're back for a little while. Your post are welcomed in my book. That said...can I just be a rational guardian? Is that to much to ask? Both parenting styles alone sound...well I don't know how they sound, and...

....so what do you think works for the civic?

I'm back until Friday when Staff Week starts. Thank god I got this one week break, I needed to have my car inspected & take care of some other issues.

I'm not as well versed in MBTI as some of the rest of you, but if I had to pin down what Millies, GIs, Republicans, Glorious, Elizabethan, and Arthurians all were...

Arthurian - Atonement - Coordinator = ENTJ (Fieldmarshal) - This makes sense as they were the "Fieldmarshals" in the Wars of the Roses, think of the roles of Edward IV, Richard III, & Henry VII, as well as Margaret Beaufort (who was only 12 years older than her son Henry VII) I've just finished two historical novels focusing on this generation and the role of Fieldmarshal feels very appropriate

Elizabethan - Advancement - Engineer = ENTP (Inventor)

Glorious - Atonement - Coordinator = INTJ (Mastermind)

Republican - Advancement - Engineer = INTP (Architect) - This makes sense as they were the "Architects" of the USA, the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, the formation of Political Parties, etc.

JDW's CW Civic Gen - Atonement - Coordinator = ENTJ (Fieldmarshal?) - This would make sense as those that JDW has found as examples were shrewed commanders in the CW

GI - Advancement - Engineer = ENTP (Inventor) - Do I really have to explain this one? GIs were the Inventors of our society that have really propelled it further along; afterall the Disney movie "The Absent Minded Professor" was about a GI-aged man

Millennial - Atonement - Coordinator = INTJ (Mastermind)


Another thing struck me was a comment ASB65 made about "neverending wars", which made me think back on previous Atonement Saeculums & realize that "neverending wars" were actually quite typical of Atonement Saeculums:

The War of the Roses (England): 1459 - 1487

Glorious Revolution (America): 1675 - 1704 (Strauss & Howe Dates): King Philip's War (1675 - 1676), King William's War (1688 - 1697), & Queen Anne's War (1702 - 1713)

Hell, the Colonial Saeculum was constantly in never ending wars across the entire saeculum as the Natives, French, Dutch, and English all fought for control of what would become the 13 Colonies & control of the continent that would continue on into the next Saeculum & only be resolved in what we call the French & Indian War.

Thirty Years War (Germany) 1618 - 1648

What my signature refers to is this war, which is from Bertolt Brecht's play: Mother Courage. A long on again & off again war between Protestant & Catholic principalities in Germany, devastating the landscape, killing as much as 3/4 of the population in some provinces, and displacing many people & religious peoples. Most nations of Europe found ways of being involved either through intervention or by the war spilling over onto their lands. The war was so devastating of Germany, that 50 years later when William Penn came to Germany to advertise Pennsylvania, there were still a lot of displaced Germans of various minority religious beliefs trying to scratch out a living on the still war ravaged land that they took his promise of fertile Pennsylvania and sailed as quick as they could to it.

What stuck out then was the "American Civil War" which wasn't a "neverending war" unless you'd like to count Reconstruction--which I wouldn't. So then, what happens to that Fieldmarshal archetype Civic generation? After beating the South in so short a time, where would they take the rest of their energies? Then it hit me: The West. Think of the many Indian Wars that occurred immediately after the Civil War that seemed to "never end"? I think that, like several members on the board who come from the Western part of the country have already stated, the West became the place for them to vent out the rest of their unbridled energies that the Civil War hadn't quite gotten out of their system. Taming the "Wild West" became their mission and they took to it well. Also the type of narrowmindedness of the ENTJ sounds exactly like the kind of personality that would engage in a Civil War and fail to understand the enemy's POV.

There is not much room for error in the world of the ENTJ. They dislike to see mistakes repeated, and have no patience with inefficiency. They may become quite harsh when their patience is tried in these respects, because they are not naturally tuned in to people's feelings, and more than likely don't believe that they should tailor their judgments in consideration for people's feelings. ENTJs, like many types, have difficulty seeing things from outside their own perspective. Unlike other types, ENTJs naturally have little patience with people who do not see things the same way as the ENTJ. The ENTJ needs to consciously work on recognizing the value of other people's opinions, as well as the value of being sensitive towards people's feelings. In the absence of this awareness, the ENTJ will be a forceful, intimidating and overbearing individual. This may be a real problem for the ENTJ, who may be deprived of important information and collaboration from others. In their personal world, it can make some ENTJs overbearing as spouses or parents.

The ENTJ has a tremendous amount of personal power and presence which will work for them as a force towards achieving their goals. However, this personal power is also an agent of alienation and self-aggrandizement, which the ENTJ would do well to avoid.
ENTJs are very forceful, decisive individuals. They make decisions quickly, and are quick to verbalize their opinions and decisions to the rest of the world. The ENTJ who has not developed their Intuition will make decisions too hastily, without understanding all of the issues and possible solutions. On the other hand, an ENTJ who has not developed their Thinking side will have difficulty applying logic to their insights, and will often make poor decisions. In that case, they may have brilliant ideas and insight into situations, but they may have little skill at determining how to act upon their understanding, or their actions may be inconsistent. An ENTJ who has developed in a generally less than ideal way may become dictatorial and abrasive - intrusively giving orders and direction without a sound reason for doing so, and without consideration for the people involved.

As I read that last paragraph I'm reminded of the persona of General Custer, whom JDW would consider a charter member of his Civic generation.

~Chas'88

Interesting that the Atonement Civics are J and the Advancement Civics are P.

Another pattern:
ENTP = Mega-High Civic
INTJ = Mega-Awakening Civic
INTP = Mega-Unraveling Civic
ENTJ = Mega-Crisis Civic


And so the Prophet generations would be:

Reformation = ENFP
Puritan = INFJ
Awakener = INFP
Transcendental = ENFJ
Missionary = ENFP
Boomer = INFJ

What about the Artists and Nomads?

Originally Posted by Odin

Interesting that the Atonement Civics are J and the Advancement Civics are P.

Another pattern:
ENTP = Mega-High Civic
INTJ = Mega-Awakening Civic
INTP = Mega-Unraveling Civic
ENTJ = Mega-Crisis Civic


And so the Prophet generations would be:

Reformation = ENFP
Puritan = INFJ
Awakener = INFP
Transcendental = ENFJ
Missionary = ENFP
Boomer = INFJ

What about the Artists and Nomads?

I think you have the Prophets backwards

ENFPs & INFPs are the ones who are Advocates
ENFJs & INFJs are the ones who are Mentors

I see being an Advocate as an Atonement Role, while being a Mentor is more of an Advancement Role. Think of how Boomers have been advocates of Racial Minorities, Women, and Gender Identities; the Transies themselves were Advocates of the Slaves. Think of how Missionaries & Awakeners were more of the mentors of GIs & Republicans, with those Civic generations looking to those Prophet generations for a stamp of approval.

But then again, I'm not as familiar with MBTI as others are, I'm only going by what the name labels suggest.

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by Chas'88

I'm back until Friday when Staff Week starts. Thank god I got this one week break, I needed to have my car inspected & take care of some other issues.

I'm not as well versed in MBTI as some of the rest of you, but if I had to pin down what Millies, GIs, Republicans, Glorious, Elizabethan, and Arthurians all were...

Arthurian - Atonement - Coordinator = ENTJ (Fieldmarshal) - This makes sense as they were the "Fieldmarshals" in the Wars of the Roses, think of the roles of Edward IV, Richard III, & Henry VII, as well as Margaret Beaufort (who was only 12 years older than her son Henry VII) I've just finished two historical novels focusing on this generation and the role of Fieldmarshal feels very appropriate

Elizabethan - Advancement - Engineer = ENTP (Inventor)

Glorious - Atonement - Coordinator = INTJ (Mastermind)

Republican - Advancement - Engineer = INTP (Architect) - This makes sense as they were the "Architects" of the USA, the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, the formation of Political Parties, etc.

JDW's CW Civic Gen - Atonement - Coordinator = ENTJ (Fieldmarshal?) - This would make sense as those that JDW has found as examples were shrewed commanders in the CW

GI - Advancement - Engineer = ENTP (Inventor) - Do I really have to explain this one? GIs were the Inventors of our society that have really propelled it further along; afterall the Disney movie "The Absent Minded Professor" was about a GI-aged man

Millennial - Atonement - Coordinator = INTJ (Mastermind)


Another thing struck me was a comment ASB65 made about "neverending wars", which made me think back on previous Atonement Saeculums & realize that "neverending wars" were actually quite typical of Atonement Saeculums:

The War of the Roses (England): 1459 - 1487

Glorious Revolution (America): 1675 - 1704 (Strauss & Howe Dates): King Philip's War (1675 - 1676), King William's War (1688 - 1697), & Queen Anne's War (1702 - 1713)

Hell, the Colonial Saeculum was constantly in never ending wars across the entire saeculum as the Natives, French, Dutch, and English all fought for control of what would become the 13 Colonies & control of the continent that would continue on into the next Saeculum & only be resolved in what we call the French & Indian War.

Thirty Years War (Germany) 1618 - 1648

What my signature refers to is this war, which is from Bertolt Brecht's play: Mother Courage. A long on again & off again war between Protestant & Catholic principalities in Germany, devastating the landscape, killing as much as 3/4 of the population in some provinces, and displacing many people & religious peoples. Most nations of Europe found ways of being involved either through intervention or by the war spilling over onto their lands. The war was so devastating of Germany, that 50 years later when William Penn came to Germany to advertise Pennsylvania, there were still a lot of displaced Germans of various minority religious beliefs trying to scratch out a living on the still war ravaged land that they took his promise of fertile Pennsylvania and sailed as quick as they could to it.

What stuck out then was the "American Civil War" which wasn't a "neverending war" unless you'd like to count Reconstruction--which I wouldn't. So then, what happens to that Fieldmarshal archetype Civic generation? After beating the South in so short a time, where would they take the rest of their energies? Then it hit me: The West. Think of the many Indian Wars that occurred immediately after the Civil War that seemed to "never end"? I think that, like several members on the board who come from the Western part of the country have already stated, the West became the place for them to vent out the rest of their unbridled energies that the Civil War hadn't quite gotten out of their system. Taming the "Wild West" became their mission and they took to it well. Also the type of narrowmindedness of the ENTJ sounds exactly like the kind of personality that would engage in a Civil War and fail to understand the enemy's POV.



As I read that last paragraph I'm reminded of the persona of General Custer, whom JDW would consider a charter member of his Civic generation.

~Chas'88

Okay, so we have ENTJ for Civics. Based of my favorite site on the subject:

http://www.personalitypage.com/html/ENTJ_car.html

ENTJs generally have the following traits:

Driven to turn theories into plans (Takes theories of prophets and put into plans)
Highly value knowledge (Enlightened men like Thomas Jefferson)
Future-oriented (JFK, man on the moon, Great Society)
Natural leaders (Ronald Reagan types)
Impatient with inefficiency and incompetence
Want things structured and orderly
Excellent verbal communication skills
Dislike routine, detail-oriented tasks
Self-confident (Millennials)
Decisive

Not that your examples are wrong, I'm just trying to apply them to the two generations I'm applying them to.

Originally Posted by MillieX

ENTJs generally have the following traits:

Driven to turn theories into plans (Takes theories of prophets and put into plans)
Highly value knowledge (West Point)
Future-oriented (Henry VII)
Natural leaders (Edward IV, Richard III, Henry VII)
Impatient with inefficiency and incompetence (CUSTER!!!)
Want things structured and orderly
Excellent verbal communication skills (McKinley!!! - Managed to win the presidency by making speeches on the front porch of his home & never travelling around the country while he took care of his elderly mother)
Dislike routine, detail-oriented tasks
Self-confident (Custer)
Decisive

~Chas'88

I am somewhat confused by some of the designations for Prophet generations. The (Apollo-type) 2Ts of the Awakeners and Missionaries, for example, had an NT flavor. So wouldn't those generations have had a Rational outlook?

Originally Posted by TimWalker

I am somewhat confused by some of the designations for Prophet generations. The (Apollo-type) 2Ts of the Awakeners and Missionaries, for example, had an NT flavor. So wouldn't those generations have had a Rational outlook?

And see that's what I think the issue may be with trying to fit advancing/ atoning with Meyers briggs. I was struggling with this today during a meeting as I looked at my class xer boss who is ENTJ. This is why I can see a case for them being civics, but I know many Xers who have ENTJ qualities (even the introverts). It basically comes down to them having the "N." It's the intuitive nature that works with them being a nomad and Entrepreneur spirit.

The "S" helps me understand how community oriented civics are.

Still pondering all of this, though.

Well, I think that we can designate Awakenings as either NT or NF. 1Ts? - probably SJ.

Originally Posted by TimWalker

Well, I think that we can designate Awakenings as either NT or NF

Now that makes sense to me.

Originally Posted by TimWalker

I am somewhat confused by some of the designations for Prophet generations. The (Apollo-type) 2Ts of the Awakeners and Missionaries, for example, had an NT flavor. So wouldn't those generations have had a Rational outlook?

Yes but it can also cause an emotional detachment that leads people to not invest their time into anyone but themselves or any interests besides their own. This may seem more rational than judgment based on emotions but, given the situation may actually be less.

Awakenings to me are NP or SP.