Originally Posted by millennialX

And see that's what I think the issue may be with trying to fit advancing/ atoning with Meyers briggs. I was struggling with this today during a meeting as I looked at my class xer boss who is ENTJ. This is why I can see a case for them being civics, but I know many Xers who have ENTJ qualities (even the introverts). It basically comes down to them having the "N." It's the intuitive nature that works with them being a nomad and Entrepreneur spirit.

The "S" helps me understand how community oriented civics are.

Still pondering all of this, though.

Well to be perfectly honest I'm going off of the Keirsey Temperments that have already been divided into groupings already. Again, I'm admitting that I'm not an expert on MBTI, I just thought that Keirsey had something to say that might be of help here.

Keirsey's groupings:

_NF_ = Idealist
_S_J = Guardian
_NT_ = Rational
_S_P = Artisan

Some of the most important recent work done in the field on Personality Typing has been done by David Keirsey, who has created the theory of temperament associated with type. In his research, he has made observations that have allowed him to combine two of the four sets of preferences, into four distinct temperament categories. Each of the sixteen personality types fits into one of these temperament categories. The titles used here for the temperament types, and the individual personality types listed within each temperament, are Keirsey's own descriptions.

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by Chas'88

I was looking through MBTI stuff when I stumbled across this temperment stuff, that Odin, Tybalt, and others can probably explain in more infinite detail. However I instantly saw how it could be of help to JDW and his APT:

In the initial post for this topic, I used the terms differently from what you suggested. "Mentor" for example referred to an Atonement ("moral," or feeling) Hero; "Engineer" referred to an Advancement ("doctrinal," or thinking) Prophet. "Organizer" is the term that I used for Advancement Hero. Otherwise, I think we are in sync.

Originally Posted by JDW

In the initial post for this topic, I used the terms differently from what you suggested. "Mentor" for example referred to an Atonement ("moral," or feeling) Hero; "Engineer" referred to an Advancement ("doctrinal," or thinking) Prophet. "Organizer" is the term that I used for Advancement Hero. Otherwise, I think we are in sync.

I remembered your use of the Terms at the start of the thread, but was temporarily tripped-up with the use of "Organizers" in place of "Co-Ordinators"(the Wiki def). I'm now back on track.

So, looking at the current Millenial Civics, I believe if an MBTI Type was used to encapsulate the entire Gen, we come-up with ExFx. I'm hesitant to give my reasoning for ExFx due to the mis-understandings of the MBTI Terminology.

FWIW, I believe there may be an MBTI Type for each of the Gen Waves and Cusps.

Prince

PS: I hope this post isn't adding any confusion.

Originally Posted by princeofcats67

I remembered your use of the Terms at the start of the thread, but was temporarily tripped-up with the use of "Organizers" in place of "Co-Ordinators"(the Wiki def). I'm now back on track.

So, looking at the current Millenial Civics, I believe if an MBTI Type was used to encapsulate the entire Gen, we come-up with ExFx. I'm hesitant to give my reasoning for ExFx due to the mis-understandings of the MBTI Terminology.

FWIW, I believe there may be an MBTI Type for each of the Gen Waves and Cusps.

Prince

PS: I hope this post isn't adding any confusion.

confusion

?????

ExFx

Extroverted Feelers?

That sounds like a bad way of describing "antennae".

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by Chas'88

Extroverted Feelers?

That sounds like a bad way of describing "antennae".

~Chas'88

"Antennae" indeed!

I believe Dave Matthews' first single fore-shadowed the coming of the Millys with 1994s "Ants Marching"(FWIW, I'm not a fan, but IMO it's appropriate none-the-less).

Ants Marching lyrics:

He wakes up in the morning
Does his teeth bite to eat and he's rolling
Never changes a thing
The week ends the week begins
She thinks, we look at each other
Wondering what the other is thinking
But we never say a thing
These crimes between us grow deeper

take these chances
place them in a box until a quiter time
lights down, you up and die

Goes to visit his mommy
She feeds him well his concerns
He forgets them
And remembers being small
Playing under the table and dreaming

Take these chances
Place them in a box until a quieter time
Lights down, you up and die
Driving in on this highway

All these cars and upon the sidewalk
People in every direction
No words exchanged
No time to exchange

When all the little ants are marching
Red and black antennas waving
we all do it the same
we all do it the same way

Candyman teasing the thoughts of a
Sweet tooth tortured by the weight loss
Programs cutting the corners
Loose end, loose end, cut, cut
On the fence, could not to offend
Cut, cut, cut, cut

Take these chances
Place them in a box until a quieter time
Lights down, you up and die

Prince

PS: Atonement Civics have to be ExFx IMO. I haven't worked-out the second Type yet(N/S). I need that second Type to determine whether N/S or T/F is the dominant Type. I'm leaning "F", so that would mean "J" would be the fourth Type. That said, ENFJ seems the likely candidate.

Originally Posted by princeofcats67

I remembered your use of the Terms at the start of the thread, but was temporarily tripped-up with the use of "Organizers" in place of "Co-Ordinators"(the Wiki def). I'm now back on track.

So, looking at the current Millenial Civics, I believe if an MBTI Type was used to encapsulate the entire Gen, we come-up with ExFx. I'm hesitant to give my reasoning for ExFx due to the mis-understandings of the MBTI Terminology.

FWIW, I believe there may be an MBTI Type for each of the Gen Waves and Cusps.

Prince

PS: I hope this post isn't adding any confusion.

Actually, I was thinking more xNFJ.

Originally Posted by JDW

Actually, I was thinking more xNFJ.

I concur. My PS after the Dave Matthews lyrics stated my suspicion of ENFJ.

Originally Posted by princeofcats67

PS: Atonement Civics have to be ExFx IMO. I haven't worked-out the second Type yet(N/S). I need that second Type to determine whether N/S or T/F is the dominant Type. I'm leaning "F", so that would mean "J" would be the fourth Type. That said, ENFJ seems the likely candidate.

It sure would explain alot of what we've been observing.

I will be interested to see if the Millys(as a whole) actually undertake a "spiritual journey" in their lives. I've noticed that it usually begins in one's 30s. That said, I suspect we'll start to see some unifying threads begin to take shape(not only among the Millys, but between Gens and among the entire Constellation). There are some odd bed-fellows currently(eg: Anti-US Interventionism), but the underlying reasonings are different. I suppose we'll simply have to wait and let Events play-out more before we start to see a Consensus(unless one believes we're achieving some sort of Consensus already, of course; Currently, I don't see anything of the sort...yet).

Prince

I just watched True Grit (as well as some behind the scenes stuff). I myself was particularly marked by the argument between LaBoeuf & Cogburn when the subject of the Civil War came up. Cogburn is portrayed as an elderhood Nomad archetype; while LaBoeuf is--as Matt Damon describes him--more of a "Dandy"--especially in his choice of clothing by going full buckskin. And in the argument between the two over the Civil War one can see that LaBoeuf values that he had more "honor" serving in the Army of Northern Virginia than Cogburn's group of "near outlaws" that killed women & children in Kansas. I thought that this argument would perhaps shed some light on our talks of 1820s vs 1830s Gilded cohorts. If this be accurate, the 1830s cohorts seem to be Yer/Interbellum-esque.

And just incase people are wondering the age of the characters:

1903 is the year at the end of the movie, 25 years after the events of the rest of the movie; therefore the movie takes place in 1878 (though the costumer apparently aimed for the 1880s).

Cogburn's gravestone indicates he was born in 1825; LaBoeuf is predicted by Mattie to be in his 70s in 1903 (therefore an 1830s cohort!); and Mattie herself is a 1864 cohort member.

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by pizal81

S&H said in their book that the prophet generation has to set aside it's differences to take on a 4T. I don't know anybody who thinks that is going to happen or even can happen. So yeah, I think millennials won't be heroes because the boomers failed. Maybe we need a false prophet archetype. When the goal from the beginning of the awakening is not improve the country but to destroy it then yeah we could very well not have a civic generation. I mean working at a soup kitchen does not a civic generation make.

I recall a post to the paleo 4T site - the Nomads in charge during the French Revolution were described as pseudo-Prophets. The key members of the Prophet generation had already died off. Given the issues/problems that we will have to deal with, I can imagine a successful pseudo-prophet cadre if their agenda is largely technocratic.

During my "copious" amount of free time I was pondering what exactly it meant to be an "atoning" generation or an "advancing" generation and how different parts of a saeculum could be atoning or advancing depending upon what generation is in charge of or producing the culture of the individual Turning. What actually got me thinking about this was a song from the musical Miss Saigon entitled "Bui Doi" in which a Boomer sings about recognizing their children had with Vietnamese women during the Vietnam War & how they must "pay" for their children's chance to live, and how those children are the "living reminders of all the good they failed to do".What I came to the conclusion of was looking at the actions of an atoning or advancing generation. Theoretically an atoning generation would be "atoning" for the "sins of the past" or the "mistakes that were made". There is no utopia for them, and all we can do is try to correct past mistakes. They feel responsible for prior actions and the consequences resulting from those actions, and take the load upon their shoulders as a "cross to bear" and usually end up sacrificing themselves to correct the wrongs committed.

An advancing generation theoretically would be "advancing" themselves and their own way of life. They see no problems to correct with their style of living, and believe that how they live is how all people either want to live or should live. They look to push society and other groups forward on to build a grand and glorious future, often at the cost of others that is never seen or even considered. The past is dead and buried and should not be considered in designing the future world.

From this I also drew conclusions that in the extreme cases: Advancing generations are looking foreward and are either ahead of the curve, or the first in line for whatever type of new change to bring to the world to bring us a step closer to that utopia. Atoning generations meanwhile are lagging behind, making sure to cross every t and dot every i in their search to atone for every problem or mistake that was committed in the past (often by Advancing generations who are too much in a hurry to get where their going that they step on other people's toes, while Atoning generations are the ones who take too long going around apologizing for stepping on your toes).

This brings me of course to how this affects Turnings, their culture, and perhaps their lengths. In a perfect world, where the theory would run like clockwork, every turning & every generation would last a perfect 20 years or two decades long. However in some cases this isn't permissible. For example, the Unraveling of the Great Power Saeculum lasted far longer than it should have. Why is this so? My reasoning is that the Lost were an Atoning Nomad generation, and Atoning generations take time to develop & percolate. They're the late bloomers of the APT IMO. Before the 1920s you had the 1910s which seemed almost like a continuation of the 1900s & 1890s, with no real strong vocal Nomadic voice present in the culture. This allowed for a shadow Awakening or what I'd call Indian Summer to lazily continue (and culminate in the year 1912). Suddenly, after WWI, there was an explosion of Lost Generation culture, the Lost had finally found their voice and they let their voices be heard over the wireless, and flapped in every dance hall in America.

Tensions arise between generations when their Atoning or Advancing viewpoints clash. This is one possible reason why we clash over whether 9/11 was THE catalyst for our Crisis. For the Advancement focused Gen Xers--it was in some cases. But then again you have to remember that Advancement generations are the "early bloomers" or the first to hit "puberty" so to speak. For Atoning Boomers & Millennials, it wasn't the start of the Crisis. This is perhaps one possible argument for the 1981ers and other Yer cuspers to be included with Generation X since I've noticed they tend to be very Advancement driven like the core Xers are. Similar problems arise when you look at Boomers & Millennials coming of age versus Generation Xers coming of age. Boomers took their merry old time developing their generational identity. I know, it seems like they did so practically overnight, but keep in mind that the mood shifted from High into Awakening in 1964. For a while they copied and emulated later-wave Silents & War Baby cuspers (by trying out Beatnik, James Dean, Juvenile Delinquent, Mod, and other Silent made stereotypes), but it wasn't until the late 1960s (1967 - 1969) that the Boomers finally established a group identity personally unique to their generation, which is actually rather late in terms of Turning definition IMO. Generation X however was quite early in defining who their generation was, and how they felt about things--with teen films and books depicting them and their culture appearing before the Turning change occurred in 1984. Because of this Boomers have a tendency to dwell on issues, lag on "getting with it" and just generally languishing over a particular pet issue of their own. Meanwhile Xers want to hurry up and get going--move on to the next thing that'll propel them and their own forward into the future. When a Nomad generation is Advancement, it is usually self-advancement that is thought of as skills for survival. This might be construed by others to be inconsiderate of other people, but the advancement Nomad would disagree, commenting that they can't possibly help someone else if they themselves are in danger.

Late Bloomers (Atoning) versus Early Bloomers (Advancement). This is also why Millennials have been taking so long to "incubate" you could say--we're the next "Atoning" generation, and we have to find something to "atone for". And we won't "atone" in the same way Boomers ask for society to "atone". It won't be personal & "ideal" based, it'll be atonement done for a larger group and in a more collective "project" sort of way. It'll be organized, it'll be managed (probably micro-managed if I know Millennials), and it'll be intensely boring--draining any and all life out of the sacrificial passion an Atoning Idealist would have had.One can see how the Civil War saeculum played out. The Transcendentals finally came together and agreed on one thing to atone for: "the curious institution of slavery". The Gilded let the Transies have their way and then pushed the freed blacks to the side after they felt the "issue had been atoned for" enough. The Gilded then kept the blacks in share cropping positions (slavery by another name) in order to advance themselves, their families, and the nation into a Gilded Age Recovery. So throughout the Advancement Saeculum, the blacks were kept down so that advancement could occur.

My question now is: Will Generation X, when they finally are given full command of the country, be similarly mercenary after they've let the Boomers finish their atonement (if Boomers can finally agree upon one thing that they wish to atone for)? I believe yes, and please note that the rest of this paragraph is pure speculation & guesswork. X's aim is already clear in this Turning from their political spokespeople: those who receive welfare or other government subsidies that they don't believe "deserve it" and are "dragging the rest of us down" will be cut. In other words, Generation X is going to cut those "fuck ups" who abuse the system. One way or another Generation X will either drastically reduce welfare & the scope of our socialist-capitalist mixed economic ideals of the New Deal or cut them altogether. It'll be up to Boomers & Millennials to define how much they let Generation X get away with it. Generation X will either do it now in the Crisis or do so in the High/Recovery. Essentially I'd argue that there would be a return of class warfare. It possibly might come to explode in the Awakening, but then again black rights didn't really take off in the 1890s that much--so perhaps it wouldn't be until the Awakening after that (after all, remember the New Prophets will be Advancement Idealists, just like the Missionaries were). However at the same time, Generation X will most likely at the same time get the country "back on track" as they'd say, moving right out in front again, and doing so in considerably less time & with more efficiency than the Atoning generations would. There's always pros & cons to sole Advancing and sole Atoning.

One thing is for sure, they wouldn't deliberate for forever about whether or not to raise or default on a debt ceiling.

~Chas'88

Great post Chas! Generation X does seem to be taking matters into it's own hands and that what they have always done and been taught to do. So the civics are probably going to piddle around for a while before they build anything.

Just another random thought. X'ers seemed to want to get their life started as early as possible. Move out and make their own way. that's not what millennials are doing.

Good post Chas and good point about Xers wanting to get their live started faster then Millennials.

So do you guys think that atonement milliennials could be for environmental issues? I must be advancement, because I'm already, ready to get to that part in the 4T story.

Great post Chas.

To add to my previous post, I'd say that one could call Advancement the active role, while the Atonement the more passive role. The danger in the Atonement saeculum then becomes that the Atonement Idealist & Civic generations might be "passed over" by an extraordinarially over-active Advancement Nomad generation--if they go into "hyper drive" so to say to attempt to get out of a Crisis ASAP. In that scenario, the Advancement Nomads would pay lip service to the Atonement Idealists--giving them just enough Atonement to keep their mouths shut, simply stepping over the Atonement Civics (that haven't yet developed enough to assert their generational birthright in the saeculum), and establishing a system which benefits themselves at the expense of others--an Advancement Nomad's belief is that they have to help them & theirs before they can help others.

Looking at Generations at a glance:

Missionary - Advancement
Lost - Atonement
GI - Advancement
Boom - Atonement
X - Advancement
Millennial - Atonement


I'm having a bit of a toss up when it comes to the Artist archetype. My gut reaction is to put the Progressives down as Advancement, while the Silents would be marked as Atonement. I believe it's part of the Artist-angst to be counter-1Ting emotions, as well as the Artists & their viewpoint being inspiration for the Idealists & 2Ting that follow. Lastly the Artists and Idealists seem to team up during a 2Ting due to similar viewpoints.

However at the same time I could see the Progressive cause of fighting for Labor being an Atonement cause, while the Silent Upwardly Mobile lifestyle & culture would be Advancement ideology enacted.

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by Chas'88

I'm having a bit of a toss up when it comes to the Artist archetype. My gut reaction is to put the Progressives down as Advancement, while the Silents would be marked as Atonement. I believe it's part of the Artist-angst to be counter-1Ting emotions, as well as the Artists & their viewpoint being inspiration for the Idealists & 2Ting that follow. Lastly the Artists and Idealists seem to team up during a 2Ting due to similar viewpoints.

~Chas'88

I agree with you assessment.

Those beatniks, civil rights leaders, rebels without cause and silents (who are also probably grandparents) seem like precursors to the early millies who broke out during the late 2000's (I'm not just talking emo)

So when the nomad is advancement and rushes the fix the 4T, it seems like their individualistic mindset often leaves folks screwed and creates unfinished business. So, it looks like it's best when the optimistic folks are the advancement generation.

Originally Posted by millennialX

I agree with you assessment.

Those beatniks, civil rights leaders, rebels without cause and silents (who are also probably grandparents) seem like precursors to the early millies who broke out during the late 2000's (I'm not just talking emo)

So when the nomad is advancement and rushes the fix the 4T, it seems like their individualistic mindset often leaves folks screwed and creates unfinished business. So, it looks like it's best when the optimistic folks are the advancement generation.

For what it's worth, fellow Silent & sf author Michael Flynn had a lecture at Worldcon called "The Autumn of the Modern Era", and one thing he went into was when certain terminology first appeared. He noted that "I think ..." was replaced by "I feel..." some time around 1950.

I think that's about right. Sorry; as a good Atonement Silent, "I feel that's about right."

Originally Posted by The Grey Badger

For what it's worth, fellow Silent & sf author Michael Flynn had a lecture at Worldcon called "The Autumn of the Modern Era", and one thing he went into was when certain terminology first appeared. He noted that "I think ..." was replaced by "I feel..." some time around 1950.

I think that's about right. Sorry; as a good Atonement Silent, "I feel that's about right."

I tend to use "I think" more than "I feel", or more precisely, that "I feel" has a more restricted use than "I think".

I say "I think" more, but fully know that I make my decisions based off intuition. Some times, I act out on it instantly or allow my mind to get in the way and have a inner debate (that's usually when things go wrong for me).

Originally Posted by millennialX

I say "I think" more, but fully know that I make my decisions based off intuition. Some times, I act out on it instantly or allow my mind to get in the way and have a inner debate (that's usually when things go wrong for me).

in my mind, what MBTI and Jung call "Thinking" and "Feeling" are both "thinking", and what they call "Intuition" is what I usually think of as "feeling".

That, IMO, is the source of much trouble with understanding MBTI and Jungian personality psychology, in normal speech we use "thinking" to mean what Jung called Thinking and Feeling and we use "feeling" to mean emotions and what Jung calls "intuition".

Originally Posted by Odin

in my mind, what MBTI and Jung call "Thinking" and "Feeling" are both "thinking", and what they call "Intuition" is what I usually think of as "feeling".

That, IMO, is the source of much trouble with understanding MBTI and Jungian personality psychology, in normal speech we use "thinking" to mean what Jung called Thinking and Feeling and we use "feeling" to mean emotions and what Jung calls "intuition".

Yea, I get you and it is confusing.

Originally Posted by Chas'88

To add to my previous post, I'd say that one could call Advancement the active role, while the Atonement the more passive role. The danger in the Atonement saeculum then becomes that the Atonement Idealist & Civic generations might be "passed over" by an extraordinarially over-active Advancement Nomad generation--if they go into "hyper drive" so to say to attempt to get out of a Crisis ASAP. In that scenario, the Advancement Nomads would pay lip service to the Atonement Idealists--giving them just enough Atonement to keep their mouths shut, simply stepping over the Atonement Civics (that haven't yet developed enough to assert their generational birthright in the saeculum), and establishing a system which benefits themselves at the expense of others--an Advancement Nomad's belief is that they have to help them & theirs before they can help others.

To build off of this post as well as unite it with a movie review I made I think I've figured out the Gilded system that they built duing the Civil War Crisis that "saved" them and theirs. I also think I've figured out why 1907 - 1917 can be seen as an Unraveling in America while most people have trouble distinguishing it from the Awakening. It all has to do with the movie Pollyanna--believe it or not. The movie depicts the "unraveling" of the system the Gilded created.

Pollyanna, in spite of its homespun nostalgia fest quality for the teary eyed sentimental Interbellums (those Lost/GI cuspers) that Walt Disney was amongst, has an intriguing social commentary on what I'd call the "collapse of the small town city state". The picture is uncannily accurate to the detail of the world of Pollyanna (with the film being set in 1912--a big year in the hearts of most Interbellums--it's when most of the nostalgia pictures take place) and turn of the 20th century America. It includes period songs: "I'll Take You Home Kathleen" and "Turn around Maggie", as well as a rich wardrobe of period appropriate costumes (supposedly the town they shot in, had a bunch of old ladies who had saved their clothes from the period and brought them out of the moth balls for the picture). The commentary of the fall of the "small town city state" actually is appropriate for the discussion going on in the Atonement vs. Advancement thread as well as other threads where we discuss the possible paths that Generation X could take in this crisis--being the only active Advancement focused generation. On a second viewing (if you didn't catch it on the first) what becomes clear is that the recently deceased Gilded Generation--Pollyanna's grandfather who "founded the town, and gave it its name" and effectively ran the town by having a piece of the pie into every aspect of the town--the newspaper, the bank, etc. By the time Polly, Pollyanna's aunt, is running the town she's even going so far as to advise the minister what to preach. This is a solution the Gilded forged out for them & their families in the Civil War Crisis. The Gilded found their fortune (either in business or by prospecting) then, after securing their own fortunes, they bought out the town by buying shares in local business--improving their own riches & securing that for the forseeable future their heirs would be as comfortable as they were. By doing so the successful Gilded established themselves as a "ruling family" of their small town--which often adopted their last name as the name of the town (Example: Boyertown; Ruling family: Boyer).

What Pollyanna depicts is the distaste & the ending of that system--the Unraveling of that system. The town has grown tired of having all major desicions half decided for them by Polly Hamilton. They want a new building for the orphanage & not the one that Polly's father had donated (one that was so old & had so many problems with it that it was a ridiculous donation to begin with)--but Polly, being a stubborn Missionary, won't stand to have the building her father donated & that rightfully belongs to the Historic Society torn down, promising to take upon herself the costs of renovating the old building herself. Here the conflict intensifies as the building is crap & the Progressive-aged Mayor flatly tells her as such. The Mayor then tries to organize a big Bazaar to help raise money to build a new orphanage. However Polly Hamilton is against the idea of the Bazaar.

Pollyanna meanwhile, being the sweet Interbellum she is (about 11 or 12 in 1912), is innocent of most of this & decides to help the town--against her aunt's wishes. She goes as far as to remind the minister that "no man owns a church" and that people shouldn't be "scared of god's wrath but be glad of God & take heed that he tells us to be glad of him & rejoice in his name". She tells the two elderly Progressives she encounters not to lock themselves away waiting for death to come and take them, but to go out & be glad to be alive.

It was an entire shift in perspective. From death to life, from wrath to rejoicing, and from one family ruling a town--to a town ruling itself.

What this means is of course it laid the foundation for the Great Power Crisis (when nationalization would occur) but also meant that the small local self-sustaining communities that now we so "long" for were ruled by one town family--and I don't think humans have "evolved" to rise above that one family rising to the top over all other families if we were to go back to such a system.

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by Chas'88

To build off of this post as well as unite it with a movie review I made I think I've figured out the Gilded system that they built duing the Civil War Crisis that "saved" them and theirs. I also think I've figured out why 1907 - 1917 can be seen as an Unraveling in America while most people have trouble distinguishing it from the Awakening. It all has to do with the movie Pollyanna--believe it or not. The movie depicts the "unraveling" of the system the Gilded created.

Pollyanna, in spite of its homespun nostalgia fest quality for the teary eyed sentimental Interbellums (those Lost/GI cuspers) that Walt Disney was amongst, has an intriguing social commentary on what I'd call the "collapse of the small town city state". The picture is uncannily accurate to the detail of the world of Pollyanna (with the film being set in 1912--a big year in the hearts of most Interbellums--it's when most of the nostalgia pictures take place) and turn of the 20th century America. It includes period songs: "I'll Take You Home Kathleen" and "Turn around Maggie", as well as a rich wardrobe of period appropriate costumes (supposedly the town they shot in, had a bunch of old ladies who had saved their clothes from the period and brought them out of the moth balls for the picture). The commentary of the fall of the "small town city state" actually is appropriate for the discussion going on in the Atonement vs. Advancement thread as well as other threads where we discuss the possible paths that Generation X could take in this crisis--being the only active Advancement focused generation. On a second viewing (if you didn't catch it on the first) what becomes clear is that the recently deceased Gilded Generation--Pollyanna's grandfather who "founded the town, and gave it its name" and effectively ran the town by having a piece of the pie into every aspect of the town--the newspaper, the bank, etc. By the time Polly, Pollyanna's aunt, is running the town she's even going so far as to advise the minister what to preach. This is a solution the Gilded forged out for them & their families in the Civil War Crisis. The Gilded found their fortune (either in business or by prospecting) then, after securing their own fortunes, they bought out the town by buying shares in local business--improving their own riches & securing that for the forseeable future their heirs would be as comfortable as they were. By doing so the successful Gilded established themselves as a "ruling family" of their small town--which often adopted their last name as the name of the town (Example: Boyertown; Ruling family: Boyer).

What Pollyanna depicts is the distaste & the ending of that system--the Unraveling of that system. The town has grown tired of having all major desicions half decided for them by Polly Hamilton. They want a new building for the orphanage & not the one that Polly's father had donated (one that was so old & had so many problems with it that it was a ridiculous donation to begin with)--but Polly, being a stubborn Missionary, won't stand to have the building her father donated & that rightfully belongs to the Historic Society torn down, promising to take upon herself the costs of renovating the old building herself. Here the conflict intensifies as the building is crap & the Progressive-aged Mayor flatly tells her as such. The Mayor then tries to organize a big Bazaar to help raise money to build a new orphanage. However Polly Hamilton is against the idea of the Bazaar.

Pollyanna meanwhile, being the sweet Interbellum she is (about 11 or 12 in 1912), is innocent of most of this & decides to help the town--against her aunt's wishes. She goes as far as to remind the minister that "no man owns a church" and that people shouldn't be "scared of god's wrath but be glad of God & take heed that he tells us to be glad of him & rejoice in his name". She tells the two elderly Progressives she encounters not to lock themselves away waiting for death to come and take them, but to go out & be glad to be alive.

It was an entire shift in perspective. From death to life, from wrath to rejoicing, and from one family ruling a town--to a town ruling itself.

What this means is of course it laid the foundation for the Great Power Crisis (when nationalization would occur) but also meant that the small local self-sustaining communities that now we so "long" for were ruled by one town family--and I don't think humans have "evolved" to rise above that one family rising to the top over all other families if we were to go back to such a system.

~Chas'88

Very good analysis. I did think it was an awakening movie at first because it's like she came into the town and, well...awakened everyone. But I think I lean on your opinion, now.

I still think Anne of Green Gables is very 2T, especially with the women's suffrage issues in that and the Avonlea series.

Originally Posted by Odin

in my mind, what MBTI and Jung call "Thinking" and "Feeling" are both "thinking", and what they call "Intuition" is what I usually think of as "feeling".

That, IMO, is the source of much trouble with understanding MBTI and Jungian personality psychology, in normal speech we use "thinking" to mean what Jung called Thinking and Feeling and we use "feeling" to mean emotions and what Jung calls "intuition".

And I associate Intuition with the Patternmaster function - you see the pattern whole and something clicks.

Originally Posted by millennialX

Very good analysis. I did think it was an awakening movie at first because it's like she came into the town and, well...awakened everyone. But I think I lean on your opinion, now.

I still think Anne of Green Gables is very 2T, especially with the women's suffrage issues in that and the Avonlea series.

Yes, but another thing to remember is that Anne of Green Gables & Avonlea depict Canadian Generations.

~Chas'88