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Thread: The Alternating Paradigm Theory (APT) - Page 27







Post#651 at 11-21-2011 10:18 PM by millennialX [at Gotham City, USA joined Oct 2010 #posts 6,597]
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Quote Originally Posted by Rose1992 View Post
I think the Crisis of 2100 will make this 4T look like child's play. Could you lay off the snark? One of the things that I liked (and missed) about this place was that it was relatively snark-free.
Rose, the rise is snarkdom seemed to coincide with the rise of the Occupy thread and while you were gone. In fact, I think an entire thread was created (or hijacked) just to talk about Xer snark. I think we found evidence that boomers were behind some snark, too and it's definitly not a millie thing.

So with that you have....wait! What the....???? I'm stoping my favorite thread to talk about my least favorite topic here.

Sorry.

-Millie X.
Born in 1981 and INFJ Gen Yer







Post#652 at 11-21-2011 10:36 PM by TeddyR [at joined Aug 2011 #posts 998]
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Quote Originally Posted by millennialX View Post
In fact, I think an entire thread was created (or hijacked) just to talk about Xer snark.
Here:

http://www.fourthturning.com/forum/s...ions-and-Snark







Post#653 at 11-22-2011 12:38 AM by Chas'88 [at In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky joined Nov 2008 #posts 9,432]
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NOTE: MOVED FROM OCCUPY THREAD

Quote Originally Posted by Deb C View Post
Possibly. I was just amazed at how militarized even so called rescue tanks look. It seems to me that 9/11 sure took us in a direction of militarized looking police departments. Heck, some of the riot gear police are wearing these days looks like something out of Star Wars.
9/11 was like what the Roaring '20s was to the Great Power Saeculum--a significant period of time where the dying remnants of the previous saeculum's solutions made it's "last stand" so to speak and people thought for a moment that the previous saeculums' solutions were viable responses to things. Both periods occurred after events which made people question the previous Unraveling cultures that had evolved up until that point: the results of WWI & the unleashing of Influenza were traumatic events which questioned the Progressive era part of the previous Unraveling. In our saeculum it was 9/11 & the 2000 election. These periods contradicted the general attitude of the rest of the Unravelings. What I mean by that: 9/11 & its response theoretically would make more sense with the majority of the 1907 - 1929 Unraveling since it's attitudes and beliefs rhyme with the 1907 - 1922 time period. Similarly the Roaring 20's would make more sense as the tail end of our Unraveling since it makes a lot more sense with the 1984 - 2000 period. However that's not how things happened and it looks like one took the logical end to both Unravelings & switched where they went. They were both appropriate micro-Crisises, if you think that theory of mine has any validity, but not in ways that people think.

However society had to have a "last hurrah" of the dying paradigm in order to know--for sure--that it was completely impotent & not a viable option anymore. We have to be completely sure that our Apollonian Great Power solutions are in fact not what we want, and that's what we've come to the conclusion with all this anti-big government & anti-big corporation talk--the two institutions that were strengthened by the last Crisis & were presented as solutions to the problem of the Great Depression. Similarly the unbridled Dionysian free market & laissez-faire economy that was leftovers from the Gilded Age that was the result of the Civil War Saeculum's struggle, had to be proven as part of the problem.

That's my opinion at least.

~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."







Post#654 at 11-22-2011 02:21 AM by disgruntledxer [at Seattle, WA joined Sep 2010 #posts 674]
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Quote Originally Posted by Chas'88 View Post
NOTE: MOVED FROM OCCUPY THREAD



9/11 was like what the Roaring '20s was to the Great Power Saeculum--a significant period of time where the dying remnants of the previous saeculum's solutions made it's "last stand" so to speak and people thought for a moment that the previous saeculums' solutions were viable responses to things. Both periods occurred after events which made people question the previous Unraveling cultures that had evolved up until that point: the results of WWI & the unleashing of Influenza were traumatic events which questioned the Progressive era part of the previous Unraveling. In our saeculum it was 9/11 & the 2000 election. These periods contradicted the general attitude of the rest of the Unravelings. What I mean by that: 9/11 & its response theoretically would make more sense with the majority of the 1907 - 1929 Unraveling since it's attitudes and beliefs rhyme with the 1907 - 1922 time period. Similarly the Roaring 20's would make more sense as the tail end of our Unraveling since it makes a lot more sense with the 1984 - 2000 period. However that's not how things happened and it looks like one took the logical end to both Unravelings & switched where they went. They were both appropriate micro-Crisises, if you think that theory of mine has any validity, but not in ways that people think.

However society had to have a "last hurrah" of the dying paradigm in order to know--for sure--that it was completely impotent & not a viable option anymore. We have to be completely sure that our Apollonian Great Power solutions are in fact not what we want, and that's what we've come to the conclusion with all this anti-big government & anti-big corporation talk--the two institutions that were strengthened by the last Crisis & were presented as solutions to the problem of the Great Depression. Similarly the unbridled Dionysian free market & laissez-faire economy that was leftovers from the Gilded Age that was the result of the Civil War Saeculum's struggle, had to be proven as part of the problem.

That's my opinion at least.

~Chas'88
Like Reagan is the answer to everything. Another might be that the New Deal's project need done again instead of something other than roads and bridges.

We keep talking about "alternating" in terms of 2, but what about terms of 4? If there are turnings within turnings, within turnings, what super turning is this saeculum going from or into?
Initially, the questions I ask when reviewing any saeculur event: What did the decision makers know about the cyclical time, when did they know it, and how did they act on that knowledge? Then I can ask the question, "what was their purpose?" I take extra special notice when reviewing events before Generations was released by Strauss-Howe.







Post#655 at 11-22-2011 02:51 AM by Chas'88 [at In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky joined Nov 2008 #posts 9,432]
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Quote Originally Posted by disgruntledxer View Post
Like Reagan is the answer to everything. Another might be that the New Deal's project need done again instead of something other than roads and bridges.

We keep talking about "alternating" in terms of 2, but what about terms of 4? If there are turnings within turnings, within turnings, what super turning is this saeculum going from or into?
Super Saeculums I leave to others to discuss in larger details. I usually only see them in how it effects artistic movements (broad movements & large institutions that last several centuries is usually the way to measure larger turnings of Saeculums). I usually leave mega & super saeculum discussion to others (like Pat or Odin). They have a better grasp of that data. I have a few thoughts, but they're not substantially developed as of yet, not really.

~Chas'88
Last edited by Chas'88; 11-22-2011 at 02:55 AM.
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."







Post#656 at 11-22-2011 09:11 AM by The Grey Badger [at Albuquerque, NM joined Sep 2001 #posts 8,876]
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Quote Originally Posted by disgruntledxer View Post
Like Reagan is the answer to everything. Another might be that the New Deal's project need done again instead of something other than roads and bridges.

We keep talking about "alternating" in terms of 2, but what about terms of 4? If there are turnings within turnings, within turnings, what super turning is this saeculum going from or into?
I've done the "In terms of 4". I call it a Mega-Saeculum, having noted long ago that the various eras in our history tend to fall into our familiar four-fold pattern. I promised Chas'88 the analysis of Medieval England and have not been able to get around to it, but here's my layout for Western Civilization: mostly the Anglo-American timeline.

Mega-Recovery: roughly, the reign of Henry VII. This is a long transition period while the modern absolute state is being formed.

Mega-Awakening: the Renaissance (during the time it came to the North: we all know how much earlier it hit Italy, so hush, you art historians, hush) and the Reformation - think Mega-Blue and Mega-Red Awakenings here.

Mega-Unraveling: the period we call the Seventeenth Century - The Stuarts on the throne in England, the 30-years war on the Continent, that crazy geek Isaac Newton and his buddies of the Royal Society (think Silicon Valley today), sharp polarization between Puritans of various stripes and the established faiths, especially the Roman Catholic faith - the counter-Reformation-

Mega-Crisis: the Eighteenth Century (note: all Centuries are culturally, by popular definition, and not by the calendar!) "So, you say you want a revolution....!"

Mega-Recovery: the Nineteenth Century. Industrialism, Progress, so fat & happy & stable not even S&H could find a real mid-century Crisis on the continent or in England except the Franco-Prussian War and Paris Commune. Which as Fourth Turnings go was nasty enough, but quite brief. Victorian mores, parallel to "Look at me, I'm Sandra Dee, lousy with virginity...."

AND THE END! As we enter the new Mega-Saeculum --

Mega-Awakening: "The 20th Century". You can probably date it to the Missionary Awakening culturally - art, new religions and the revival of occultism, and all that - went mass-market with the old order died in the trenches of the Western Front. I keep saying, neither a Victorian nor an Elizabethan would have known a person of 1960 for their heirs without being horribly appalled. But they would have known each other well.

Mega-Unraveling: Starts with the Boom Awakening and we are still in it. See Seventeenth Century for parallels that strike me as being as obvious as the flood of colored lights and sales around the holidays. And I still consider the English Civil War to have been England's 4T. S&H were trying to keep England and the Colonies on the same timeline, and no, they were NOT.

Mega-Crisis: Let's let the dust of this 4T settle and look at the real, lasting problems we're stuck with and can't get around. My bet is on resource depletion and climate change. And what human beings have historically done when faced with resource depletion is that nations, states, and other people of power go to war to steal those of their neighbors in order to maintain the American/Roman/Mayan Way of Life. I expect the Crisis of 2100 - a Mega-Crisis-Era Crisis - to be a doozy. And the Recovery to be hard. And none of us will recognize the post-Crisis civilization. We would probably be totally appalled at it.

BTW, I do dimly sense that there are larger patterns. Eric the Green could probably give us chapter and verse on them, with names like Age of Pisces, Age of Aries, etc, attached to them.
How to spot a shill, by John Michael Greer: "What you watch for is (a) a brand new commenter who (b) has nothing to say about the topic under discussion but (c) trots out a smoothly written opinion piece that (d) hits all the standard talking points currently being used by a specific political or corporate interest, while (e) avoiding any other points anyone else has made on that subject."

"If the shoe fits..." The Grey Badger.







Post#657 at 11-22-2011 11:00 AM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Grey Badger View Post
I've done the "In terms of 4". I call it a Mega-Saeculum, having noted long ago that the various eras in our history tend to fall into our familiar four-fold pattern. I promised Chas'88 the analysis of Medieval England and have not been able to get around to it, but here's my layout for Western Civilization: mostly the Anglo-American timeline.

Mega-Recovery: roughly, the reign of Henry VII. This is a long transition period while the modern absolute state is being formed.

Mega-Awakening: the Renaissance (during the time it came to the North: we all know how much earlier it hit Italy, so hush, you art historians, hush) and the Reformation - think Mega-Blue and Mega-Red Awakenings here.

Mega-Unraveling: the period we call the Seventeenth Century - The Stuarts on the throne in England, the 30-years war on the Continent, that crazy geek Isaac Newton and his buddies of the Royal Society (think Silicon Valley today), sharp polarization between Puritans of various stripes and the established faiths, especially the Roman Catholic faith - the counter-Reformation-

Mega-Crisis: the Eighteenth Century (note: all Centuries are culturally, by popular definition, and not by the calendar!) "So, you say you want a revolution....!"

Mega-Recovery: the Nineteenth Century. Industrialism, Progress, so fat & happy & stable not even S&H could find a real mid-century Crisis on the continent or in England except the Franco-Prussian War and Paris Commune. Which as Fourth Turnings go was nasty enough, but quite brief. Victorian mores, parallel to "Look at me, I'm Sandra Dee, lousy with virginity...."

AND THE END! As we enter the new Mega-Saeculum --

Mega-Awakening: "The 20th Century". You can probably date it to the Missionary Awakening culturally - art, new religions and the revival of occultism, and all that - went mass-market with the old order died in the trenches of the Western Front. I keep saying, neither a Victorian nor an Elizabethan would have known a person of 1960 for their heirs without being horribly appalled. But they would have known each other well.

Mega-Unraveling: Starts with the Boom Awakening and we are still in it. See Seventeenth Century for parallels that strike me as being as obvious as the flood of colored lights and sales around the holidays. And I still consider the English Civil War to have been England's 4T. S&H were trying to keep England and the Colonies on the same timeline, and no, they were NOT.

Mega-Crisis: Let's let the dust of this 4T settle and look at the real, lasting problems we're stuck with and can't get around. My bet is on resource depletion and climate change. And what human beings have historically done when faced with resource depletion is that nations, states, and other people of power go to war to steal those of their neighbors in order to maintain the American/Roman/Mayan Way of Life. I expect the Crisis of 2100 - a Mega-Crisis-Era Crisis - to be a doozy. And the Recovery to be hard. And none of us will recognize the post-Crisis civilization. We would probably be totally appalled at it.

BTW, I do dimly sense that there are larger patterns. Eric the Green could probably give us chapter and verse on them, with names like Age of Pisces, Age of Aries, etc, attached to them.
Great post, Pat!
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#658 at 11-22-2011 03:11 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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Request for clarification - doesn't the Mega-Awakening include the early years of the Boom Awakening? That is, "the 60s", "the Conciousness Revolution."?







Post#659 at 11-22-2011 03:31 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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Quote Originally Posted by Chas'88 View Post
Oh none of us will most likely live to see the new cultural order, until then, we're only getting pushed further into that chaos which we haven't completely jumped into yet. We keep trying to pull ourselves out of that primordial chaos by reactivating our nostalgia for older periods or exploiting other cultures (most notably Asian cultures--that's where the Missionaries started) which still have life left in them. It won't be until our society completely lets go and accepts the fact that the past is dead that the new era will be born. I don't even think the New Prophets will get us there. However the next Idealists after the New Prophets will probably get us there. The last Idealist generation to do this were the Idealists that led the Reformation. Why am I obsessing over the "primordial chaos"? Every mythological creation story begins with primordial chaos out of which a new order is born. The next new order will most likely not only redefine Western Civilization--it'll also most likely make Christianity irrelevant. Astrologers talk about it as the "Age of Aquarius". With the Age of Pisces (the Fish) being the Christian era. This is something I'd like to think about further before posting here about. It's still an idea of mine under construction. ~Chas'88
Nevertheless, I imagine that the New Prophets will have an influence. For one thing, we may anticipate that they will preside over the next Nega-Crisis.







Post#660 at 11-22-2011 05:09 PM by Rose1992 [at Syracuse joined Sep 2008 #posts 1,833]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Grey Badger View Post
Mega-Crisis: Let's let the dust of this 4T settle and look at the real, lasting problems we're stuck with and can't get around. My bet is on resource depletion and climate change. And what human beings have historically done when faced with resource depletion is that nations, states, and other people of power go to war to steal those of their neighbors in order to maintain the American/Roman/Mayan Way of Life. I expect the Crisis of 2100 - a Mega-Crisis-Era Crisis - to be a doozy. And the Recovery to be hard. And none of us will recognize the post-Crisis civilization. We would probably be totally appalled at it.
Mega-Crises are complete game changers. The Black Death was one as was the rebirth of Western democracy. They all cause significant changes to the economic system. I'm guessing that the next Mega-Crisis will be the end of our capitalist industrialist economic system just as the last one was the end of mercantilism. Considering the benefits of industrialization (end of institutionalized slavery, feminism*, increased leisure time, medical advances) and the consequences (population explosion, resource depletion, lack of self sufficiency) this could cause a whole lot of good or a whole lot of bad depending on how it plays out and your point of view.

My biggest worry is that the old system will begin to die off too soon (like in 2040 or so). I do not think that we as a society are mature enough to handle such a sudden change. This will probably cause a re-adoption of agrarianism, a massive die-off, a return of caste based or race based slavery, a return of patriarchy, and a new Dark Age.A more gradual change could cause us to become post-industrial instead of agrarian. This would actually be beneficial though even in a post-industrial society we would still have to deal with the damage wrought by industrialization in the form of permanent climate change and supporting a large population (will be 10 billion or more by 2100 assuming no massive die-offs).

* Patriarchal gender roles began and ended with agrarianism because the high infant mortality rates and large families needed to do agricultural work meant that most women spent the vast majority of their fertile years pregnant, and even when they weren't pregnant they were probably nursing or taking care of those very large families as the children got older. This tied women to the home, which caused femininity to be associated with domestic work. That does not mean that an agrarian society will always be patriarchal but I think that acknowledging the reality that agrarian societies were under will provide a greater chance of it not happening again. I do not think society right now is mature enough to handle that. Women's rights is still way too touchy of a subject (see the mega-threads we've had about gender and sexuality on this board).
Last edited by Rose1992; 11-22-2011 at 05:26 PM.







Post#661 at 11-22-2011 05:27 PM by The Grey Badger [at Albuquerque, NM joined Sep 2001 #posts 8,876]
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Quote Originally Posted by TimWalker View Post
Request for clarification - doesn't the Mega-Awakening include the early years of the Boom Awakening? That is, "the 60s", "the Conciousness Revolution."?
No. The Boom Awakening was a Mega-Unraveling Awakening.
How to spot a shill, by John Michael Greer: "What you watch for is (a) a brand new commenter who (b) has nothing to say about the topic under discussion but (c) trots out a smoothly written opinion piece that (d) hits all the standard talking points currently being used by a specific political or corporate interest, while (e) avoiding any other points anyone else has made on that subject."

"If the shoe fits..." The Grey Badger.







Post#662 at 11-22-2011 08:02 PM by Chas'88 [at In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky joined Nov 2008 #posts 9,432]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Grey Badger View Post
No. The Boom Awakening was a Mega-Unraveling Awakening.
Quite Agreed. It splintered & fractured society more & wasn't as idealistic as the Missionary Awakening was.

And Millennials are a Mega-Nomad Civic generation perhaps? Since the Millennial saeculum is a Mega-Unraveling, that would mean all the generations born during this Mega-Unraveling would have a Nomadic flair to them? Think about in terms of OWS, where Millennials don't want to "speak for anyone but themselves" and "don't trust leaders". Boomers have been emulating the Lost generation (their inverse generation if you think about it Lost Generation: Idealist Nomads; Boomers: Nomadic Idealists) since the 1960s. Which would make Generation X uber-Nomads, "X-treme" Nomads. Following that line of reasoning... one could argue that the Missionaries were uber-Idealists as they were an Idealist generation that came of age during a Mega-Awakening. Which would make the next Civic generation to be born uber-Civics, and boy will we need them.

~Chas'88
Last edited by Chas'88; 11-22-2011 at 08:47 PM.
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."







Post#663 at 11-22-2011 09:16 PM by The Grey Badger [at Albuquerque, NM joined Sep 2001 #posts 8,876]
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Quote Originally Posted by Chas'88 View Post
Quite Agreed. It splintered & fractured society more & wasn't as idealistic as the Missionary Awakening was.

And Millennials are a Mega-Nomad Civic generation perhaps? Since the Millennial saeculum is a Mega-Unraveling, that would mean all the generations born during this Mega-Unraveling would have a Nomadic flair to them? Think about in terms of OWS, where Millennials don't want to "speak for anyone but themselves" and "don't trust leaders". Boomers have been emulating the Lost generation (their inverse generation if you think about it Lost Generation: Idealist Nomads; Boomers: Nomadic Idealists) since the 1960s. Which would make Generation X uber-Nomads, "X-treme" Nomads. Following that line of reasoning... one could argue that the Missionaries were uber-Idealists as they were an Idealist generation that came of age during a Mega-Awakening. Which would make the next Civic generation to be born uber-Civics, and boy will we need them.

~Chas'88
Anyone wanting a look at super-civics and what they'd be like could do no better than to read up on the United States Republican generation. Quintessential specimen: Thomas Jefferson. Who was far from perfect, but man, did he get things done - for the ages - and kept on getting them done.
How to spot a shill, by John Michael Greer: "What you watch for is (a) a brand new commenter who (b) has nothing to say about the topic under discussion but (c) trots out a smoothly written opinion piece that (d) hits all the standard talking points currently being used by a specific political or corporate interest, while (e) avoiding any other points anyone else has made on that subject."

"If the shoe fits..." The Grey Badger.







Post#664 at 11-22-2011 09:28 PM by millennialX [at Gotham City, USA joined Oct 2010 #posts 6,597]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Grey Badger View Post

I do dimly sense that there are larger patterns. Eric the Green could probably give us chapter and verse on them, with names like Age of Pisces, Age of Aries, etc, attached to them.
Now charting if each age is an recovery, awakening, unraveling or crisis sounds like fun.
Born in 1981 and INFJ Gen Yer







Post#665 at 11-23-2011 10:23 AM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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Quote Originally Posted by Rose1992 View Post
Mega-Crises are complete game changers. The Black Death was one as was the rebirth of Western democracy. They all cause significant changes to the economic system. I'm guessing that the next Mega-Crisis will be the end of our capitalist industrialist economic system just as the last one was the end of mercantilism. Considering the benefits of industrialization (end of institutionalized slavery, feminism*, increased leisure time, medical advances) and the consequences (population explosion, resource depletion, lack of self sufficiency) this could cause a whole lot of good or a whole lot of bad depending on how it plays out and your point of view.

My biggest worry is that the old system will begin to die off too soon (like in 2040 or so). I do not think that we as a society are mature enough to handle such a sudden change. This will probably cause a re-adoption of agrarianism, a massive die-off, a return of caste based or race based slavery, a return of patriarchy, and a new Dark Age.A more gradual change could cause us to become post-industrial instead of agrarian. This would actually be beneficial though even in a post-industrial society we would still have to deal with the damage wrought by industrialization in the form of permanent climate change and supporting a large population (will be 10 billion or more by 2100 assuming no massive die-offs).

* Patriarchal gender roles began and ended with agrarianism because the high infant mortality rates and large families needed to do agricultural work meant that most women spent the vast majority of their fertile years pregnant, and even when they weren't pregnant they were probably nursing or taking care of those very large families as the children got older. This tied women to the home, which caused femininity to be associated with domestic work. That does not mean that an agrarian society will always be patriarchal but I think that acknowledging the reality that agrarian societies were under will provide a greater chance of it not happening again. I do not think society right now is mature enough to handle that. Women's rights is still way too touchy of a subject (see the mega-threads we've had about gender and sexuality on this board).
IMO the next awakening is when the new system will begin to emerge. I think it will have a lot of similarities with the "zero-scarcity" ideas of the 60s.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#666 at 11-23-2011 10:25 AM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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Quote Originally Posted by Chas'88 View Post
Quite Agreed. It splintered & fractured society more & wasn't as idealistic as the Missionary Awakening was.

And Millennials are a Mega-Nomad Civic generation perhaps? Since the Millennial saeculum is a Mega-Unraveling, that would mean all the generations born during this Mega-Unraveling would have a Nomadic flair to them? Think about in terms of OWS, where Millennials don't want to "speak for anyone but themselves" and "don't trust leaders". Boomers have been emulating the Lost generation (their inverse generation if you think about it Lost Generation: Idealist Nomads; Boomers: Nomadic Idealists) since the 1960s. Which would make Generation X uber-Nomads, "X-treme" Nomads. Following that line of reasoning... one could argue that the Missionaries were uber-Idealists as they were an Idealist generation that came of age during a Mega-Awakening. Which would make the next Civic generation to be born uber-Civics, and boy will we need them.

~Chas'88
Good example of an "Idealistic Nomad", Lost historian A. J. Toynbee.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#667 at 11-23-2011 10:26 AM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Grey Badger View Post
Anyone wanting a look at super-civics and what they'd be like could do no better than to read up on the United States Republican generation. Quintessential specimen: Thomas Jefferson. Who was far from perfect, but man, did he get things done - for the ages - and kept on getting them done.
And Alexander Hamilton.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#668 at 11-23-2011 03:31 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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11-23-2011, 03:31 PM #668
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I believe that I may have confused Pat awhile back by using the word "Reform." I got that from The Clash of Civilizations and The Remaking of World Order. It is shorter than the term I meant, Reconstitution. I recall that, when I read the book, that I wished that Huntington had elaborated when he wrote that civilizations had "reformed and renewed" themselves.
Last edited by TimWalker; 11-23-2011 at 03:37 PM.







Post#669 at 11-23-2011 03:40 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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11-23-2011, 03:40 PM #669
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Examples of Reconstitution would include: the Meiji Restoration, and Western Chistiandom entering the the Renaissance/Reformation period.







Post#670 at 11-23-2011 03:51 PM by The Grey Badger [at Albuquerque, NM joined Sep 2001 #posts 8,876]
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11-23-2011, 03:51 PM #670
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Quote Originally Posted by TimWalker View Post
I believe that I may have confused Pat awhile back by using the word "Reform." I got that from The Clash of Civilizations and The Remaking of World Order. It is shorter than the term I meant, Reconstitution. I recall that, when I read the book, that I wished that Huntington had elaborated when he wrote that civilizations had "reformed and renewed" themselves.
Ah. Now it dawns. Thanks!
How to spot a shill, by John Michael Greer: "What you watch for is (a) a brand new commenter who (b) has nothing to say about the topic under discussion but (c) trots out a smoothly written opinion piece that (d) hits all the standard talking points currently being used by a specific political or corporate interest, while (e) avoiding any other points anyone else has made on that subject."

"If the shoe fits..." The Grey Badger.







Post#671 at 11-23-2011 03:59 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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11-23-2011, 03:59 PM #671
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Last edited by TimWalker; 11-23-2011 at 04:46 PM.







Post#672 at 11-23-2011 04:02 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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11-23-2011, 04:02 PM #672
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Last edited by TimWalker; 11-23-2011 at 04:53 PM.







Post#673 at 11-28-2011 07:19 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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11-28-2011, 07:19 PM #673
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Does anybody know any examples of a jet lag saeculum?







Post#674 at 11-28-2011 07:40 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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11-28-2011, 07:40 PM #674
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I have been trying to imagine a jet lag 2T. If such is possible, would there be a resetting of the saeculum after a Mega-Crisis, returning to the alternating pattern of distinct Apollo and Dionysus awakenings?
Last edited by TimWalker; 11-28-2011 at 07:45 PM.







Post#675 at 01-04-2012 02:45 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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01-04-2012, 02:45 PM #675
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Trying to imagine a jet lagged saeculum, I think about Meyers-Briggs. A Dionysus Awakening has an NF flavor, while an Apollo Awakening has an NT flavor. So would a jet lagged Awakening be N but on the borderline of N/F?
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