Originally Posted by jamesdglick

First, why does Playwrite have a problem with pointing out President Obama's short-comings, particularly since so many people seem to have an inflated view of his intelligence & judgement? Correctives are healthy, right?

Second, on Playwrite's whining about "propoganda techniques" in posts #25:



and post #56:



...PW seems to enjoy employing those techniques himself:

Propaganda is not about two guys calling each other names on an Internet forum, or in this case, one guy (i.e., me) just pointing out that another guy (i.e., you) is a complete moron.

No, what propaganda is about is pushing a political agenda in an insidious manner. Your political target is Obama and you are trying to undermine his political credibility through various forms of character assassination, the latest being this

Originally Posted by jamesdglick

Now, to the original point: What is it about Seanator Obama's lack of judgement which only allowed him to realize that Rev. Wright was a racist, anti-American dirt-bag after 20 YEARS (or and a personal "dis")?

which is a combination of guilt by association, an incredible degree of simplification, and absolutism.

Then there is this gem -

Originally Posted by jamesdglick

And I still want to know, when did he disown that white grandmother of his?

which is the old when-did-you-stop-beating-your-wife ploy.

All in all, not very clever or creative. What a surprise.

Originally Posted by Child of Socrates

I've been doing that, off and on, for years. Most of the cops I've worked with have been good people who've had a positive effect on the situations in which I've asked for their assistance.

You can cut down your chances of [police abuse] by not being an asshole!

Heh. Well, if I ever find myself in that kind of a situation, I'll make sure to let you know how it went.

Police - citizen relationships are probably one of the biggest generation gaps. You get "assistance," many of us are used to being harassed.

I cannot exaggerate this point enough, as my teenage years are filled with unofficial detainments for heinous crimes such as "loitering" "riding a bicycle without a helment" or even "riding a bicylcle after sundown without a light."

The average length of such an unofficial detainment is about 60 minutes, the average number of insults, accusations, and taunts endured is about 15.

I don't know what a "warning is" because every time I've crossed the letter of the law I've been written to the full extent. Luckily, 95% of the unofficial detainments are not triggered by actual illegal activity, just the officer's sense that youth=trouble.

I thought it was bad when I was a teenager, but these days the police will just kill you where you stand (or kneel).

Originally Posted by The Rani

I think it has to do with gender as well as age. If you're an adolescent male, you're pretty well screwed.

When I was 17, I went to a Van Halen show. After the band finished the main set hey took an extra long time to come back out onstage for an encore. Some people began leaving, including a guy about my age who had been sitting in front of me.
Before we were out of the building the band came back onstage and began to play. The same guy was still in front of me after we turned around to go back in. As he passed this cop the cop pulled out a nightstick and smacked the guy in the head for no apparent reason. The blow knock him to the ground and he was councious but clearly in pain. Then the cop glared at me so I went around him through a different door. Out of the corner of my eye I saw the cop leave the guy alone and he slowly got up. Then I lost view of guy and the cop because of the crowd.

It's been almost 30 years to the day since this happened and I'd never before or since seen anything like that in person. Also, I've rarely had to deal with cops through traffic stops, ect., but yeah as I've gotten older they've been easier to deal with. Even here in "the detention state", a.k.a. South Carolina.

Originally Posted by playwrite

[mentioning President Obama's relationship with Rev. Jeremiah Wright] ...is a combination of guilt by association, an incredible degree of simplification, and absolutism...

-The "it's only 'guilt by association'" defense only works for relationships that are either coincidental or involuntary. Mr./State Representative/US Senator Obama's relationship with his self-described "mentor" was deep and voluntary; as a matter of fact, he talked about going out of his way to find the dirt-bag and his church.

As for his judgement, I could tell after less than 20 minutes of reading the TUCC's "Black Value System" and other propoganda that those people were just wrong; BO said he read the same crap, and got a warm & fuzzy, and then spent 20 years with them, but claims he didn't notice anything out of kilter. As a matter of fact, when the MSM finally pointed out what Rev. Wright was, BO kept defending him, thus his quote:

Originally Posted by jamesdglick

"I can no more disown him [Rev. Wright] than I can my white grandmother..."

...BO only disowned JW and the TUCC after Rev. Wright made him look like a jack-ass during a news conference.

Good judgement, bad judgement, or something else?

Oprah Freakin' Winfrey figured out that Rev. Wright was trouble after a few months of contact with him and the TUCC. Shouldn't the future POTUS have better judgement than a light-weight (figuratively) TV Talk Show Host?

As for this observation:

Originally Posted by jamesdglick

BTW, when did he disown that white grandmother of his?

...BO said, in what many claimed at the time was a "historic" speech:

Originally Posted by jamesdglick

"I can no more disown him [Rev. Wright] than I can my white grandmother..."

...well, if BO said that sincerely, shouldn't he have dis-owned granny after he dis-owned JW?

Originally Posted by independent

Police - citizen relationships are probably one of the biggest generation gaps. You get "assistance," many of us are used to being harassed.

I cannot exaggerate this point enough, as my teenage years are filled with unofficial detainments for heinous crimes such as "loitering" "riding a bicycle without a helment" or even "riding a bicylcle after sundown without a light."

The average length of such an unofficial detainment is about 60 minutes, the average number of insults, accusations, and taunts endured is about 15.

I don't know what a "warning is" because every time I've crossed the letter of the law I've been written to the full extent. Luckily, 95% of the unofficial detainments are not triggered by actual illegal activity, just the officer's sense that youth=trouble.

I thought it was bad when I was a teenager, but these days the police will just kill you where you stand (or kneel).

I've never had any bad experiences with the police. People I do know that had "bad experiences" with the cops did so because laws were broken and were in denial that they had done anything wrong.

Originally Posted by Odin

I've never had any bad experiences with the police. People I do know that had "bad experiences" with the cops did so because laws were broken and were in denial that they had done anything wrong.

For a small town in Minnesota, I'm not surprised...

If you said that after spending the '90s and '00s as a teenager in CA, FL, TX, New England, or the core South, I'd be shocked (or inclined to think you only left home to travel to the library, boy scout meetings, and school).

Originally Posted by jamesdglick

-The "it's only 'guilt by association'" defense only works for relationships that are either coincidental or involuntary. Mr./State Representative/US Senator Obama's relationship with his self-described "mentor" was deep and voluntary; as a matter of fact, he talked about going out of his way to find the dirt-bag and his church.

As for his judgement, I could tell after less than 20 minutes of reading the TUCC's "Black Value System" and other propoganda that those people were just wrong; BO said he read the same crap, and got a warm & fuzzy, and then spent 20 years with them, but claims he didn't notice anything out of kilter. As a matter of fact, when the MSM finally pointed out what Rev. Wright was, BO kept defending him, thus his quote:



...BO only disowned JW and the TUCC after Rev. Wright made him look like a jack-ass during a news conference.

Good judgement, bad judgement, or something else?

Oprah Freakin' Winfrey figured out that Rev. Wright was trouble after a few months of contact with him and the TUCC. Shouldn't the future POTUS have better judgement than a light-weight (figuratively) TV Talk Show Host?

As for this observation:



...BO said, in what many claimed at the time was a "historic" speech:



...well, if BO said that sincerely, shouldn't he have dis-owned granny after he dis-owned JW?

My God, man, how can you bring this trivial crap up given what is going on in the world?!!!

Don't you know that Limbaugh the Hut, head of the GOP, has captured and chained Princess Leia!!!!

http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/in...ty-in-Limbaugh

WARNING! Those of you with weak stomachs, PLEASE avert your eyes at the 4:20 mark!!!!

Originally Posted by playwrite

My God, man, how can you bring this trivial crap up given what is going on in the world?!!!

-The fact that the POTUS can't recognize an evil man:

Originally Posted by jamesdglick

"I can no more disown him [Rev. Wright] than I can my white grandmother..."

...when he'd spent 20 years as his Jedi student (to put it in terms Playwrite can understand) is not "trivial crap".

Originally Posted by herbal tee

When I was 17, I went to a Van Halen show. After the band finished the main set hey took an extra long time to come back out onstage for an encore. Some people began leaving, including a guy about my age who had been sitting in front of me.
Before we were out of the building the band came back onstage and began to play. The same guy was still in front of me after we turned around to go back in. As he passed this cop the cop pulled out a nightstick and smacked the guy in the head for no apparent reason. The blow knock him to the ground and he was councious but clearly in pain. Then the cop glared at me so I went around him through a different door. Out of the corner of my eye I saw the cop leave the guy alone and he slowly got up. Then I lost view of guy and the cop because of the crowd.

It's been almost 30 years to the day since this happened and I'd never before or since seen anything like that in person. Also, I've rarely had to deal with cops through traffic stops, ect., but yeah as I've gotten older they've been easier to deal with. Even here in "the detention state", a.k.a. South Carolina.

Once, in the late 1990s, I went to a coffee house in the next town over. Something must have been happening because I had to park a few streets over: in front of the Catholic(?) services for homeless people.

I watched as a dog was run over in the middle of the street. It was - literally - flattened in the middle. It continued to wag its tail and raise its head. Then it didn't. I think the dog belonged to a homeless person.

The person driving the car stopped down the block. He or she got out and looked then got back in. They drove away.

Originally Posted by jamesdglick

-The fact that the POTUS can't recognize an evil man:



...when he'd spent 20 years as his Jedi student (to put it in terms Playwrite can understand) is not "trivial crap".

Look, Slick, its trivial compared to what your dealing with. I forwarded your photo onto Sandy, the one you've been pining over the last few weeks but too shy to ask out. She asked me to forward this to you and said to come over for some cake -


Just be sure to bring a few 6-packs.

Maybe she can lift that foul mood you've got yourself in.

Originally Posted by Linus

Once, in the late 1990s, I went to a coffee house in the next town over. Something must have been happening because I had to park a few streets over: in front of the Catholic(?) services for homeless people.

I watched as a dog was run over in the middle of the street. It was - literally - flattened in the middle. It continued to wag its tail and raise its head. Then it didn't. I think the dog belonged to a homeless person.

The person driving the car stopped down the block. He or she got out and looked then got back in. They drove away.

Well, I'll tell you.
I got up this morning and my eyes were a little bleary.
For a split second, I thought that I saw petroleum distillates in my coffee.
This caused me much consternation for I can't properly enjoy my French toast when I have to strain petroleum distillates from my coffee.

Just about the time that I was prepaired to cut loose with a string of profanities
I remembered that coffee contains essential and consumable oils. :
And what's more, the problems I've been having lately with purple clad salesmen scurrying away from my door when I go to retrieve my morning paper is after all most likely just an optical illusion caused by the lack of good roof materials on my neighbor's shingles.
After all, he didn't use long distance to make a telephoine call.
So who nose, maybe that guy I saw getting smacked did hit pancaked dog years later. But there's no cop to sue for I was unable to ascertain his badge number through the crowd.
And there's rumored to be a shortage of black boots in Madagascar. :

Playwrite - that is one funny photo. I think I may have dated her mother during my last year of high school. Something about the teeth gave it away.

Originally Posted by independent

For a small town in Minnesota, I'm not surprised...

If you said that after spending the '90s and '00s as a teenager in CA, FL, TX, New England, or the core South, I'd be shocked (or inclined to think you only left home to travel to the library, boy scout meetings, and school).

I've been living in a good-sized city (Fargo) for 4 and a half years and I still haven't had any problems with the cops. I see people (including people around here) whining and complaining about the same things you are claiming about and I simply haven't seen any of it. Though I do see people getting caught breaking the law (usually a traffic law violation or some dimwit holding a loud party and giving teens beer) and then bitch at the "god-damn cops" for enforcing the law...

Originally Posted by playwrite

Look, Slick, its trivial compared to what your dealing with....

-The fact that the POTUS has a level of intelligence and judgement that is over-rated is not "trivial".

Originally Posted by Odin

I've been living in a good-sized city (Fargo) for 4 and a half years and I still haven't had any problems with the cops. I see people (including people around here) whining and complaining about the same things you are claiming about and I simply haven't seen any of it. Though I do see people getting caught breaking the law (usually a traffic law violation or some dimwit holding a loud party and giving teens beer) and then bitch at the "god-damn cops" for enforcing the law...

Fargo is a big town? 100,000 people and 95% racially homogeneous?

Minnesota and North Dakota are incredibly libertarian compared to the rest of the nation. Even Ron Paul can count these as some of his most successful states! Maybe instead of bashing the anti-abuse position, you should realize how good you have it thanks to an above-average influence by anti-authoritarians..

In the meantime, my police keep shooting people, including Isaac Singletary:

Singletary, you'll remember, is the elderly man in Florida who, upon seeing drug dealers on his lawn, came out of his home with a gun to scare them off. Unfortunately, they weren't drug dealers, but undercover cops posing as drug dealers. Upon seeing Singletary with his gun, they shot him dead. Even the police and town officials concede that Singletary was involved in no criminal activity, and was merely attempting to protect his property from what he thought were criminals.

This is the kind of news that pops up on the local paper every morning. "Police shoot," "Suspect dead," another black man dies or rots in jail.

Have you ever...

• Ridden a bicycle without a helmet?
• Ridden that bike at night w/o a headlight?
• Built a tree house in the woods?
• Sat on the bench outside of a McDonald's waiting for lunch to digest?
• Sat in a public park with your friends?
• Put a temporary tag in the back window of a car?
• Practiced music with a band?
• Carried your guitar and amp in a car? (this got us accused of robbing an audio store)
• Gotten permission from neighbors to throw a party with live music? (they actually set up a roadblock around us for this one - then they beat up the homeowner/host in jail and he died a few weeks later)
• Walked around campus after the last class lets out?
• Stayed out past curfew?
• How about staying out past curfew because the police unofficially detained you for two hours over one of the technicalities mentioned above?
• Downloaded a song? (lol)

You don't have to answer, because I'm sure you're one of those lawbreakers, too. Sitting on a moral perch doesn't bring the dead back to life or make them guilty, nor does it even prove that you're so innocent and upstanding as you think. It just means that your police aren't totally insane, racist, and drunk on power.

Heck, our cops even sell cocaine and ecstacy. We had an undercover who brought 1,000+ pills into our club scene as a pretense toward shutting down every dance club in the city. She literally moved in with a "criminal," slept with him, sold him drugs, took drugs with him, and then had him arrested for five aspirins that had been passed off as something else.

Meh, if I could make this stuff up I'd have a career in fiction.

Originally Posted by independent

For a small town in Minnesota, I'm not surprised...

If you said that after spending the '90s and '00s as a teenager in CA, FL, TX, New England, or the core South, I'd be shocked (or inclined to think you only left home to travel to the library, boy scout meetings, and school).

Well, well, well. I grew up in Greater Cleveland, Ohio and did my undergraduate work at a university located in, what we called back then, “the 9 zone” . I had an orange mohawk and dressed really bizarre. I hung out with other weird looking punks. We drank too much, and engaged in other less than law abiding activities. We got out of hand at shows and hung out on street corners all night, etc. There were cops all over the place, yet me, and many, many of my friends never had any problems with them despite the rather fascist flavor of the local police. Me and my crew didn’t like authority, or the cops, but were smart enough to use our brains and discretion. We didn’t act like spoiled little kids and whine and protest when we got shaken down by the Man. We dealt with it and learned from it. Sometimes I’m still surprised I got out of school and joined the real world, but hey, it happened.

There were people that did have problems. They were college football jocks, average joe college kids, working class stiffs and other types. The difference you ask? They were dickheads with an authority problem so the cops messed with them. As a matter of fact, it wasn’t only the cops that messed with them, we did too! Attitude and how own REACTS often dictate the outcome. I’m not sticking up for the cops when I say this, but hey, maybe it’s not the cops all the time.

The one time I did get messed with by the cops was when I was Peace Marshalling at a DC march on Apartheid and Human Rights in Central America in the mid 1980’s. I got run down by a mounted National Capitol cop on horse back in front of the Whitehouse. Apparently our permit didn’t provide for us walking on the sidewalk…….only the street. Was he a fascist cop, or was I a protester refusing to abide in the conditions of the march permit?

Sounds like you got away with stuff we would have been stupid to even try! You're talking about getting drunk and causing trouble at a concert, I'm talking about riding a bicycle around the suburbs.

And obviously, you got off easy for walking on the sidewalk They should have beaten you to within the limit of their legal immunity.

howbout that time he tried to turn water into wine but it just came out as stale cooking sherry?

Originally Posted by The Rani

Well, that's fine, but just because you haven't experienced it yourself don't assume that they're all lying. I've never "seen" cops behave abusively myself either, but I've heard wayyy to many identical stories, predominantly from adolescent males and especially minorities, to believe that they're all making up the exact same thing. One common theme is cops saying "we've talked to so and so and they ratted you out" or "we searched the house and we found such and such" when actually they've done nothing of the sort. Usually, the families involved don't know their rights and/or don't have the resources to file complaints when this kind of thing happens. Or they've seen it happen so often that they figure it won't do any good anyway, and probably would just make things even worse.

I am in no way defending cops that are racist ***holes. I've heard plenty of "X-ing while Black" stories. But that has to do with the evil that is racism, not something inherent to the police.

The "adolescent males" I have far less sympathy for. That goes back to my observation about dumb***es breaking the law and then whining when they have to face the consequences

Originally Posted by independent

Fargo is a big town? 100,000 people and 95% racially homogeneous?

It is for somebody that grew up in a town of 500 people

Minnesota and North Dakota are incredibly libertarian compared to the rest of the nation. Even Ron Paul can count these as some of his most successful states! Maybe instead of bashing the anti-abuse position, you should realize how good you have it thanks to an above-average influence by anti-authoritarians..

Minnesota LIBERTARIAN?!? I sure want some of what you're smoking. We tend towards "I am by brother's keeper" communitarianism around here. We just recently passed a state-wide smoking ban for indoor public places, including bars. That ain't libertarian.

Have you ever...

• Ridden a bicycle without a helmet? Yes, but that wasn't illegal were I grew up AFAIK, or if it was it was never enforced. Here in Fargo I always wear a helmet while on my bike because I'm not stupid
• Ridden that bike at night w/o a headlight? I Don't bike at night.
• Built a tree house in the woods? No.
• Sat on the bench outside of a McDonald's waiting for lunch to digest? No.
• Sat in a public park with your friends? Yes. Nothing illegal about that.
• Put a temporary tag in the back window of a car? Huh?
• Practiced music with a band? I wish...
• Carried your guitar and amp in a car? (this got us accused of robbing an audio store) I don't have a guitar, let alone amplifiers.
• Gotten permission from neighbors to throw a party with live music? (they actually set up a roadblock around us for this one - then they beat up the homeowner/host in jail and he died a few weeks later) Not my thing.
• Walked around campus after the last class lets out? Nothing wrong stopping by at the school library before I went home.
• Stayed out past curfew? Never had one where I grew up.
• How about staying out past curfew because the police unofficially detained you for two hours over one of the technicalities mentioned above? Uh, no.
• Downloaded a song? Yes. But in committing an act of civil disobedience I accept the consequences of my actions.

You don't have to answer, because I'm sure you're one of those lawbreakers, too. Sitting on a moral perch doesn't bring the dead back to life or make them guilty, nor does it even prove that you're so innocent and upstanding as you think. It just means that your police aren't totally insane, racist, and drunk on power.

Heck, our cops even sell cocaine and ecstacy. We had an undercover who brought 1,000+ pills into our club scene as a pretense toward shutting down every dance club in the city. She literally moved in with a "criminal," slept with him, sold him drugs, took drugs with him, and then had him arrested for five aspirins that had been passed off as something else.

Meh, if I could make this stuff up I'd have a career in fiction.

Doesn't sound like a police problem, it sounds like a CORRUPTION problem involving the police.

Originally Posted by playwrite

My God, man, how can you bring this trivial crap up given what is going on in the world?!!!

Don't you know that Limbaugh the Hut, head of the GOP, has captured and chained Princess Leia!!!!

http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/in...ty-in-Limbaugh

WARNING! Those of you with weak stomachs, PLEASE avert your eyes at the 4:20 mark!!!!

Even worse:

Limbaugh's rhetoric has gone into the realm of radicalism. Right or Left, radicals seek the near-ruin of the society in which they live but intend to overthrow. Left-wing radicalism wants capitalism to become an insufferable order that forces people to turn upon the rotting order; right-wing extremists want social disorder that gives them the authority to repress everything that they dislike once in power.

Limbaugh claimed that he wanted Obama to fail -- which suggests that far many other people who never sought high office will themselves be consigned to misery.

Limbaugh backtracked some and claimed that he only wanted Obama to fail 'politically' -- that is, to not get what he was seeking.

Originally Posted by Odin

Minnesota LIBERTARIAN?!? I sure want some of what you're smoking. We tend towards "I am by brother's keeper" communitarianism around here. We just recently passed a state-wide smoking ban for indoor public places, including bars. That ain't libertarian.

Relatively speaking? Yeah, absolutely. MN, ND, SD, everything west until you hit the coast pretty much. Small government isn't just about keeping your money and low tax rates, its about localism and communitarianism and not worrying about giant, corrupt institutions that have guns & prisons.

Again, no coincidence that Ron Paul can count this area among his greatest support. I'm not saying he's going to become governor or pull together a majority, I'm talking about the relative influence of a minority.

If you just passed the smoking ban, you're like 10 years behind the more authoritarian states who have already had that debate come & go. You don't get pulled over for riding a non-motorized bicycle without a helmet? The gun laws are slack? It sounds like some kind of crazy libertarian utopia compared to my experience in the Bible B...er Prison Belt.

Doesn't sound like a police problem, it sounds like a CORRUPTION problem involving the police.

What's the difference here? How can you fight the corrupt police when everyone is a criminal and "gets what they deserve?"

My point about the laundry list of "laws" that police harass teens for around here: If you're "smart" you'll stand there silently and take insults & verbal abuse for an hour or two. If you get fed up and talk back, you're likely to get shoved around, cuffed, thrown in a cell for a night, etc... The cops don't care if the charges get dropped because they can't be sustained in a court of law, and they know that they're not going to face any consequences for putting a few bruises on you. In this city, they even know that they'll likely get an award if they shoot someone black or hispanic...

25 classic American movie box-set as an official gift to Gordon Brown, what a tightass. Im just wondering if anybody here knows the names of those 25 American movies at least?

But anyway it was a pretty poor effort from Barry and makes you wonder what he meant by improving Americas' diplomatic ties with the rest of the world. Just the parts of the world that hate you? why don't you just swap teams altogether, leave NATO and get the Warsaw Pact back together again?

Isn't Gordon Brown Scottish? he may well approve!

Originally Posted by independent

It sounds like some kind of crazy libertarian utopia compared to my experience in the Bible B...er Prison Belt.

What's the difference here? How can you fight the corrupt police when everyone is a criminal and "gets what they deserve?"

My point about the laundry list of "laws" that police harass teens for around here: If you're "smart" you'll stand there silently and take insults & verbal abuse for an hour or two. If you get fed up and talk back, you're likely to get shoved around, cuffed, thrown in a cell for a night, etc... The cops don't care if the charges get dropped because they can't be sustained in a court of law, and they know that they're not going to face any consequences for putting a few bruises on you. In this city, they even know that they'll likely get an award if they shoot someone black or hispanic...

The bolded part is your whole problem. You live in the sh*ttiest part of the country and that inevitably means sh*tty people run things. I couldn't stand living in the land of racist Rush-bot Christo-Fascists, either. That's not an argument against police, it's a damning statement about the Stupid Belt.