Originally Posted by herbal tee

Well, I'll tell you.
I got up this morning and my eyes were a little bleary.
For a split second, I thought that I saw petroleum distillates in my coffee.
This caused me much consternation for I can't properly enjoy my French toast when I have to strain petroleum distillates from my coffee.

Just about the time that I was prepaired to cut loose with a string of profanities
I remembered that coffee contains essential and consumable oils. :
And what's more, the problems I've been having lately with purple clad salesmen scurrying away from my door when I go to retrieve my morning paper is after all most likely just an optical illusion caused by the lack of good roof materials on my neighbor's shingles.
After all, he didn't use long distance to make a telephoine call.
So who nose, maybe that guy I saw getting smacked did hit pancaked dog years later. But there's no cop to sue for I was unable to ascertain his badge number through the crowd.
And there's rumored to be a shortage of black boots in Madagascar. :

Yikes, Rick, were you channeling Kathaksung there or what? Very stream-of-consciousness.

Originally Posted by Child of Socrates

Yikes, Rick, were you channeling Kathaksung there or what? Very stream-of-consciousness.

It was most deliberately stream of consciousness for a specific reason.
Above we had been talking about police abuse of young males. I related a true story on the topic and someone else replied with a snarky parody of my story.
He didn't really deserve to get a "string of profanities" as my reply, and I prefer not to pollute the forum with such.
So instead I let my right hemisphere take over and produced that little bit of free verse.
I felt it was a much better rebuttal than simple insults and cursing. ::

Originally Posted by herbal tee

It was most deliberately stream of consciousness for a specific reason.
Above we had been talking about police abuse of young males. I related a true story on the topic and someone else replied with a snarky parody of my story.
He didn't really deserve to get a "string of profanities" as my reply, and I prefer not to pollute the forum with such.
So instead I let my right hemisphere take over and produced that little bit of free verse.
I felt it was a much better rebuttal than simple insults and cursing. ::

I know exactly how you feel. However, you exercised more restrain - I didn't curse but I did "pollute the forum" with some images. Oh well.

Some advice given to me a long time ago -

Don't mess with a policeman on the streets, he's the only one carrying the license to kill. Take him to court.

- and that was given before cell phones with video.

Originally Posted by Odin

The bolded part is your whole problem. You live in the sh*ttiest part of the country and that inevitably means sh*tty people run things. I couldn't stand living in the land of racist Rush-bot Christo-Fascists, either. That's not an argument against police, it's a damning statement about the Stupid Belt.

Yea, Independent, I think Odin is right…you live in rectumtown USA. Get outta there before things get worse.

Cops are essentially the “army of the rich” just as Sir Robert Peel designed them to be. They’re blue collar working class folks paid to enforce the social order that heavily favors the upper classes.

Rani is correct in that right-wing racist scum gravitates toward police work. They also gravitate toward career crime. There is a very, very thin line between the two. They hold the same value system and it’s one with very strict codes, black and white decisions and physical force as the primary tool for persuasion. They understand each other better than they understand the average population. That doesn’t mean there aren’t good cops it just means there are a goodly proportion of bigoted mental pygmies out there and you’re more likely to meet one of them than your are a good cop.

Given that, and given it’s highly unlikely that your going to be able to change the system by threatening to call your daddy’s lawyer, or reporting the bad cops to the media, it’s good to understand the game and play to win.

Winning means recognizing that you are who you are. If you are male and between the ages of 15-30 you should avoid the cops at all costs. Why? Because males between the ages of 15-30 are the bulk of crime statistics for a good reason – they commit more crimes than all other groupings combined! The cops have good reason to be VERY suspicious of any guy in that category and it’s confirmed daily on the streets. This is as old as civilization. Young men commit crime. If you want to catch criminals, focus on young men. Knowing this, you should not be surprised, or feel somehow insulted because a cop chooses to question you about something. Stopping you and checking you out is what he should be doing. Go with it, cut the guy some slack and answer his questions respectfully. Even go as far as to thank him. It’s likely the first time in a long time he’s been thanked for anything. If nothing else it will mess with his head and that’s fun.

Know where you are. STAY AWAY FROM COPS in general and particularly in environments where cops are expecting trouble.

In the even that you end up interacting with the fuzz, just deal with it. Call him sir. Never officer. His boss calls him officer and he calls his boss sir. Call him sir. Relax and keep a relaxed body posture.

Get the badge number and name.

Originally Posted by The Rani

Every time I called him "sir," the word came out incredibly sarcastic and only made things worse."

You?!? Sarcastic? I can hardly believe it!

Maybe if I were a guy, testosterone would have started a fight.

Nah.....probably just a one-sided thingy where you get maced and then hauled into the pokey.

I probably knew I'd get out of the ticket anyway, which I did.

Tell me more. How is it you "probably knew" you'd get out of it?

Originally Posted by Skabungus

In the even that you end up interacting with the fuzz, just deal with it. Call him sir. Never officer. His boss calls him officer and he calls his boss sir. Call him sir. Relax and keep a relaxed body posture.

Get the badge number and name.

Hardly anyone ever uses "sir" around here, even around cops.

Originally Posted by Skabungus

Winning means recognizing that you are who you are. If you are male and between the ages of 15-30 you should avoid the cops at all costs. Why? Because males between the ages of 15-30 are the bulk of crime statistics for a good reason – they commit more crimes than all other groupings combined! The cops have good reason to be VERY suspicious of any guy in that category and it’s confirmed daily on the streets. This is as old as civilization. Young men commit crime. If you want to catch criminals, focus on young men. Knowing this, you should not be surprised, or feel somehow insulted because a cop chooses to question you about something. Stopping you and checking you out is what he should be doing. Go with it, cut the guy some slack and answer his questions respectfully. Even go as far as to thank him. It’s likely the first time in a long time he’s been thanked for anything. If nothing else it will mess with his head and that’s fun.

Know where you are. STAY AWAY FROM COPS in general and particularly in environments where cops are expecting trouble.

In the even that you end up interacting with the fuzz, just deal with it. Call him sir. Never officer. His boss calls him officer and he calls his boss sir. Call him sir. Relax and keep a relaxed body posture.

Get the badge number and name.

I like your approach better than Justin's.

Originally Posted by Child of Socrates

I like your approach better than Justin's.

And you are right to. In the American paradigm, you need to treat your masters with constant visible respect, or else...

All I was pointing out that kicked this off was that in some contexts which your local propaganda would have you believe are un-free, there is no need to grovel before the state just to avoid being beaten by its untouchable enforcers. I don't go out of my way to be abrupt or rude with anyone myself, but it makes a big difference to know that I have the right to actually do so, regardless of what kind of Badge they are wearing.

Just to offer a little balance -

I would note that the BLS Standard Occupational Classification lists 820 occupations. Of those 820, only two responded to the 9/11 WTC disaster with the resulting loss of 341 firefighters, 2 FDNY paramedics, 8 private sector paramedics AND 23 NYPD officers and 37 Port Authority officers.

Obviously, a heavy toll that day, but our reality is that one is unlikely to pick up a big city newspaper on any given morning and not read of one or two brutal causalities in the occupation.

My sense is that very few of our posters would last too long in their various environments without these people willing to make this their occupation. Given the nature of meth labs and other drug-related crime, I don't think being in rural areas or homogenous areas gets you a free pass any more either.

That's not to say that there aren't bad apples that need to be constantly weeded out by their communities. However, I think our brushes need to avoid being too broad when we paint the picture.

Originally Posted by Justin '77

And you are right to. In the American paradigm, you need to treat your masters with constant visible respect, or else...

All I was pointing out that kicked this off was that in some contexts which your local propaganda would have you believe are un-free, there is no need to grovel before the state just to avoid being beaten by its untouchable enforcers. I don't go out of my way to be abrupt or rude with anyone myself, but it makes a big difference to know that I have the right to actually do so, regardless of what kind of Badge they are wearing.

So this discussion has been all meaningless sophistry, then. I thought it might be headed in that direction.

It does really come down to whether you believe you have the "right" to be an asshole -- just because you can. Is that really freedom or just acting the fool? Where's the discernment? Where's the judgment? Where's the maturity?

Nah, Skabungus is right. Use honey instead of vinegar. And as a public servant myself, I can tell you that being thanked by perfect strangers makes our day.

Originally Posted by Justin '77

I don't go out of my way to be abrupt or rude with anyone myself,

ROTFLMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Yea, sure

Originally Posted by independent

...

Have you ever...

• Ridden a bicycle without a helmet? (Yes. Wearing a helmet while biking was unheard of. )
• Ridden that bike at night w/o a headlight? (Ditto.)
• Built a tree house in the woods? (No.)
• Sat on the bench outside of a McDonald's waiting for lunch to digest? (N/A)
• Sat in a public park with your friends? (Yes)
• Put a temporary tag in the back window of a car? (No)
• Practiced music with a band? (No)
• Carried your guitar and amp in a car? (this got us accused of robbing an audio store) (No)
• Gotten permission from neighbors to throw a party with live music? (they actually set up a roadblock around us for this one - then they beat up the homeowner/host in jail and he died a few weeks later) ("Party hearty" was the order of the times, so no. )
• Walked around campus after the last class lets out? (Yes, or staggered...)
• Stayed out past curfew? (Whatsa "curfew" ? )
• How about staying out past curfew because the police unofficially detained you for two hours over one of the technicalities mentioned above? (Obviously N/A)
• Downloaded a song? (lol) (No. I let my Millie nephews do that. They're much more adept. )

You don't have to answer, because I'm sure you're one of those lawbreakers, too. Sitting on a moral perch doesn't bring the dead back to life or make them guilty, nor does it even prove that you're so innocent and upstanding as you think. It just means that your police aren't totally insane, racist, and drunk on power.

Or perhaps you were born 20 years too late.

Heck, our cops even sell cocaine and ecstacy. We had an undercover who brought 1,000+ pills into our club scene as a pretense toward shutting down every dance club in the city. She literally moved in with a "criminal," slept with him, sold him drugs, took drugs with him, and then had him arrested for five aspirins that had been passed off as something else.

1. Obviously a corrupt police force.
2. In theory, elected officials should put a stop to this sort of thing. If not, then those of voting age have no clue.

Meh, if I could make this stuff up I'd have a career in fiction.

Florida eh? Foreclosures galore and hurricanes. Is everyone boffed off on lysergic acid from the mold?

Originally Posted by Child of Socrates

So this discussion has been all meaningless sophistry, then. I thought it might be headed in that direction.

How is that the case? Someone made an incorrect point, to which was responded a concrete illustration of how that point was false. That's hardly meaningless sophistry.

It does really come down to whether you believe you have the "right" to be an asshole -- just because you can. Is that really freedom or just acting the fool? Where's the discernment? Where's the judgment? Where's the maturity?

The real question is this: what you enjoy is merely the 'freedom' to pick your masters from time to time off an already-vetted list (as well as the freedom to -- politely, and within the permitted bounds, of course -- complain to them about whatever doesn't suit your fancy). In fact, that freedom ultimately forms the core of the so-called 'modern values' that so many here seem to wish see imposed on the world at-large.

My point, then, is the freedom which you enjoy to a far greater degree than some might in other places is hardly a key one -- and that in fact as far as freedom that actually has a bearing on one's life, it pales in comparison to the freedom to (for example) deal with the agents of the state without the fear that comes from knowing that they are All and you are None, and that they have the power to do with you whatever they want, for whatever reason, and get away with it.
Look at the advice Skabungus gave: Avoid the agents of the State whenever possible; where not possible, be obviously deferential and passive. Not polite, mind (polite is how you characterize dealing between peers)... deferential. Such advice would have served just as well in Saddam's Iraq.

That's not freedom, and whatever crumbs people under such a system are thrown to keep them from open revolt don't make it any more free.

Get yourself your own friggin island where you can do as you please. Otherwise, grow up, shut up and learn to live in a society with other people.

Child of Socrates is 100% dead on right --- sophistry yet again.

The real question is this: what you enjoy is merely the 'freedom' to pick your masters from time to time off an already-vetted list (as well as the freedom to -- politely, and within the permitted bounds, of course -- complain to them about whatever doesn't suit your fancy). In fact, that freedom ultimately forms the core of the so-called 'modern values' that so many here seem to wish see imposed on the world at-large.

Heaven help us from this load of crap.

Originally Posted by haymarket martyr

Get yourself your own friggin island where you can do as you please. Otherwise, grow up, shut up and learn to live in a society with other people.

Hmm. I'm not the one who seems to react at a less-than-adult level when confronted with other people. I live in society just fine, thanks -- in fact, I've been able to live just fine in several different kinds of social paradigms. Obviously I'm doing something right. What's your excuse?

I am so completely sick of reading about your crap. All this self serving manure about licking the hands of your masters and living in slavery and the rest of it. Its all libertarian sophistry of the lowest order. The really frightening thing is I actually think you folks believe your own crap.

But then I come around to the comforting realization that you are all as harmless as babies since typing here is your idea of fighting the political revolution.

There is no such thing as total and complete personal freedom as long as you live in a society with other people. Get that through your heads.

Originally Posted by haymarket martyr

I am so completely sick of reading about your crap. All this self serving manure about licking the hands of your masters and living in slavery and the rest of it. Its all libertarian sophistry of the lowest order. The really frightening thing is I actually think you folks believe your own crap.

Speaking of crap, who pooped in your cheerios this morning?

Originally Posted by haymarket martyr

There is no such thing as total and complete personal freedom as long as you live in a society with other people. Get that through your heads.

I repeat Standard Answer to hm #4:

If you actually read anything other people wrote, you would realize that the position you attempt to attribute to those you declare your enemies has no relationship whatsoever to the position they actually express or advocate.

Also, it seems SA2hm #15 is appropriate here, too:

Libertarianism is about people living in society, and the freedom that we talk about is reciprocal freedom, not the imaginary construct you rail against

-I swear, you're as boring/predictable as you are incorrect-

Originally Posted by haymarket martyr

I am so completely sick of reading about your crap. All this self serving manure about licking the hands of your masters and living in slavery and the rest of it. Its all libertarian sophistry of the lowest order. The really frightening thing is I actually think you folks believe your own crap.

But then I come around to the comforting realization that you are all as harmless as babies since typing here is your idea of fighting the political revolution.

There is no such thing as total and complete personal freedom as long as you live in a society with other people. Get that through your heads.

Blah blah blah, there is no such thing as absolute freedom.

How exactly does that justify the world's most extensive prison system, corrupt police, and laws that make 1/3 of our population into criminals?

It doesn't. You're just regurgitating the binary thinking that is so typical of the generation that leads us into crisis.

It must be comforting to imagine that the only alternatives are:

1. the status quo or
2. fantasy

Heaven forbid there's something possible that's better than what we have.

"Conservative," "reactionary," and "old fashioned" come to mind.

Originally Posted by independent

"Conservative," "reactionary," and "old fashioned" come to mind.

And all perfectly apt. Which shall we (for the sake of consistency) agree to use? I'm rather partial to calling them 'reactionary', though 'conservative' has the irony bitchslap-factor.

Originally Posted by Justin '77

I live in society just fine, thanks -- in fact, I've been able to live just fine in several different kinds of social paradigms. Obviously I'm doing something right. What's your excuse?

I can't speak for Haymarket, but I can say the same thing -- and I don't pick my so-called "masters" off a vetted list -- whatever the frak that even means.

Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62

Or perhaps you were born 20 years too late.

More perfect pithiness from Rags.

When we Jonesers weren't having it rough, we had it MADE!! The stuff we got away with....

Anyway, I looked at Justin's post again and just realized that he changed the question on me -- went off in some oddball philosophical direction and DUCKED OUT!!

That might be a first.

Originally Posted by Child of Socrates

I can't speak for Haymarket, but I can say the same thing -- and I don't pick my so-called "masters" off a vetted list -- whatever the frak that even means.

I think that's a reference to the election process here in the United States. However - if you can get your hands on a now-rare copy, try to read Robert Heinlein's "Take BackYour Government." With a 1980s preface by Jerry Pournelle pointing out that hands-on grass-roots volunteering is SO yesterday (late 1940s) in this age of big budgets and TV ads -

tell that to the Obamamaniacs! Everything old is new again ....

Originally Posted by The Grey Badger

I think that's a reference to the election process here in the United States. However - if you can get your hands on a now-rare copy, try to read Robert Heinlein's "Take BackYour Government." With a 1980s preface by Jerry Pournelle pointing out that hands-on grass-roots volunteering is SO yesterday (late 1940s) in this age of big budgets and TV ads -

tell that to the Obamamaniacs! Everything old is new again ....

Ah, Badger -- thanks for the rec! Added this to my "to read file."

Originally Posted by Justin '77

And all perfectly apt. Which shall we (for the sake of consistency) agree to use? I'm rather partial to calling them 'reactionary', though 'conservative' has the irony bitchslap-factor.

Conventional has a nice, neutral feel to it.