Well, the problem isn't protesting or voicing opinions. Nobody is complaining about that per se. Well, at least not the vast, vast, overwhelming majority of people. What these protesters are doing to upset people has to do with how they are protesting; namely, to the point of actually disrupting events that are designed to allow people to voice opinions in the first place. Basically, the protests are actually preventing others from voicing their opinions.

Sure, you could make the argument that these others could just start yelling and shouting back and voice their opinions that way, but society isn't supposed to work like that. Just because some people consider it to be hypothetically inappropriate of themselves to act in that manner doesn't mean that their opinions are worth less than those who yell and scream.

It reminds me of a passage I read in a practice LSAT question recently, where the writer points out that it would be quite silly to decide a court case based on which side made their claims the loudest.

By the way, I for one am not complaining about the idea of even loud protests per se either. I am mainly very troubled with the combination of loud protests and town hall meetings, where citizens of the quieter, more articulate variety are supposed to be able to voice their opinions.

Originally Posted by AlexMnWi

Well, the problem isn't protesting or voicing opinions. Nobody is complaining about that per se. Well, at least not the vast, vast, overwhelming majority of people. What these protesters are doing to upset people has to do with how they are protesting; namely, to the point of actually disrupting events that are designed to allow people to voice opinions in the first place. Basically, the protests are actually preventing others from voicing their opinions.

Sure, you could make the argument that these others could just start yelling and shouting back and voice their opinions that way, but society isn't supposed to work like that. Just because some people consider it to be hypothetically inappropriate of themselves to act in that manner doesn't mean that their opinions are worth less than those who yell and scream.

It reminds me of a passage I read in a practice LSAT question recently, where the writer points out that it would be quite silly to decide a court case based on which side made their claims the loudest.

By the way, I for one am not complaining about the idea of even loud protests per se either. I am mainly very troubled with the combination of loud protests and town hall meetings, where citizens of the quieter, more articulate variety are supposed to be able to voice their opinions.

The people are pissed. I don't blame them for being pissed. The Liberal Dems in Washington aren't all that interested in listening to them, dealing with them or the party who most represents their interests. America wasn't set up or designed to be a one way street, a one way freight train for liberal want or thought or a we won, get over it mentality to rule and a Mr. Liberal Happy with a liberal yes stamp. The way I see it, if the Democrats can't take it or hear it from the other side in Washington then they'll just have to give it to them direct and tell it to them in a less formal and a nastier way in their liberal dens at the street level. Hey, don't come at it from the self righteous high almighty Millie position. You voted for Obama despite all the liberal nasty shit that was going on or being placed on public display. Or, did you just put all that liberal nasty shit that was going on on ignore or cover your eyes for your own greater good or needs? Now, if that's the case, what does that say about you in relationship to me or them? Do you really have the right to say anything bad about them when you weren't willing or able to stand up, point out and address the liberal shit on your side?

Originally Posted by K-I-A 67

The people are pissed. I don't blame them for being pissed. The Liberal Dems in Washington aren't all that interested in listening to them, dealing with them or the party who most represents their interests. America wasn't set up or designed to be a one way street, a one way freight train for liberal want or thought or a we won, get over it mentality to rule and a Mr. Liberal Happy with a liberal yes stamp. The way I see it, if the Democrats can't take it or hear it from the other side in Washington then they'll just have to give it to them direct and tell it to them in a less formal and a nastier way in their liberal dens at the street level. Hey, don't come at it from the self righteous high almighty Millie position. You voted for Obama despite all the liberal nasty shit that was going on or being placed on public display. Or, did you just put all that liberal nasty shit that was going on on ignore or cover your eyes for your own greater good or needs? Now, if that's the case, what does that say about you in relationship to me or them? Do you really have the right to say anything bad about them when you weren't willing or able to stand up, point out and address the liberal shit on your side?

Many of these Screamers are PAID REPUBLICAN HACKS, hacks determined to prevent and disrupt reasoned discussion. This is complete astroturf, pushed by powerful corporate interests, not real grass roots at all. someting like 70-thing % of Americans want a strong public option. Freedom of expression does not mean one should let crazed brownshirts that think they are going to kill Grandma and disabled Uncle Fred.

However - and I've posted this elsewhere - there are people, honest, well-meaning people - who are terrified of losing what little control they have over the care they or their loved ones get.

It also occurred to me, since one of the truly terrifies antis that I know is a farmer in southern New Mexico - how many of them have actually seen the government, federal or otherwise, taking away their rights or their property at gunpoint? The farmer is question is from the same region where an old rancher who resisted the army taking his land for a missile range at cents on the dollar during WWII is still a folk hero. Not to mention whatever else they've had to put up with in the name of environmental regulations.

Not saying whether the latter is good or bad. A little of both. But I still remember one totally arrogant little rat from the Green Party trying to close down the wood gathering rights of people who'd lived in and around one of our national forests for centuries - people who have always heated with wood. He sniffed "Well! If they REALLY need it, they can go to the Forest Service and ask them to GIVE them some!"

Pure Ayn Rand villain, just as you started thinking that Atlas Shrugged was so far over the top it couldn't be taken seriously. (BTW I campaigned against the little rat and told the story where I could. And later quit the Greens, though more on the grounds of irrelevance than of one jerk.)

And not to mention that rural foreclosures have been a hot button from the start.

Originally Posted by Odin

Many of these Screamers are PAID REPUBLICAN HACKS, hacks determined to prevent and disrupt reasoned discussion. This is complete astroturf, pushed by powerful corporate interests, not real grass roots at all. someting like 70-thing % of Americans want a strong public option. Freedom of expression does not mean one should let crazed brownshirts that think they are going to kill Grandma and disabled Uncle Fred.

What's liberal unwanted pork like added provisions to legalize and fund euthenasia and laxed limitations and an expansion abortion doing in a healthcare bill? GIVE ME A SIMPLE, EASY, LEAN and CLEAN HEALTHCARE BILL! The problem isn't a public option, the problem is all the liberal shit that coming with it. Who does Obama think WE are, a bunch of dumn fuck liberals or something?

There is a terrific irony about my 1968 analogy which has clearly resonated.

Two things created the new Republican majority, 1968-2004--the Civil Rights Acts which made white southerners Republicans, and Boomer behavior in the late 1960s, which threatened the values of the hero generation and turned many of them into Republicans. The white southerners, sadly, are still Republicans--more so than ever. (That report from Florida was scarey and I suspect, dead on. Many people feel they've lost "their country" because we have a half-black President.) But now the GIs are mostly dead, and we have a new Hero generation, and the question is, will the Town Hall behavior of aging Boomers rouse the Millennials on Obama's behalf? I am beginning to think his problem is that health care is simply not an issue that most people in their twenties care about very much--it would be much better if the issue related primarily to jobs. (Health care does have huge implications for jobs, of course,, but they are indirect.)

I am meanwhile waiting for reports of the President's Town Hall meeting in NH which I suspect will be a major media event.

I'm getting a real 4T feeling that reminds me (for very different reasons) of how Brits felt after the fall of France--a feeling of impending chaos.

Check out this video and see if it reminds you of anything.

Originally Posted by Odin

Many of these Screamers are PAID REPUBLICAN HACKS, hacks determined to prevent and disrupt reasoned discussion. This is complete astroturf, pushed by powerful corporate interests, not real grass roots at all. someting like 70-thing % of Americans want a strong public option. Freedom of expression does not mean one should let crazed brownshirts that think they are going to kill Grandma and disabled Uncle Fred.

I have to disagree about this "astroturf" meme. The response to the health care reform debate is the first time that right-wingers (other than Ron Paul types) have used the internet in the manner that the netroots has been using it. Somehow or another (I'm still not clear how) I managed to get on the FreedomWorks mailing list -- so I've been getting their messages. The e-mails don't push any particular behavior on the part of people who go to the town halls, they just say go there and ask certain pointed questions.

It's clear to me that if their weren't a lot of people worked up about the health care debate, there wouldn't be any crowds of angry people at the town halls. It's one thing to issue "marching orders," but these protests (and their character) are entirely dependent on the people who are willing to go to the meetings. So, as much as you might like to view these protestors as puppets of unseen corporate masters -- I'm afraid you can really only say that in a deep psychological sense. They're fighting for their "team."

The sad truth is that no one needs to pay conservatives to be angry. They just are.

Originally Posted by KaiserD2

I am meanwhile waiting for reports of the President's Town Hall meeting in NH which I suspect will be a major media event.

I'm getting a real 4T feeling that reminds me (for very different reasons) of how Brits felt after the fall of France--a feeling of impending chaos.

I'm not sure we are that far along. After the fall of France, Churchill made a few memorable speeches resulting in a truly united and resolved country. I doubt that Obama's NH meeting will have comperable impact. We are currently too divided, the issue isn't a uniting one, and Obama either can not or doesn't want to push in a make or break way.

Originally Posted by K-I-A 67

The people are pissed. I don't blame them for being pissed.

Demagogues of the Hard Right, paid retainers of the Hard, semi-fascist Right, have riled them up. Think of the "Love Sessions" of George Orwell's 1984, in which the monopoly Party offers people the opportunity to steel their emotions with images of "Goldstein" and other "Enemies of the People" as well as footage of the vileness and aggressiveness of the enemy of the day. The "wolves in sheep's clothing" that people have become for lack of alternatives in the nightmarish Oceania become completely submissive to the Will of the Leadership and so scared of the Enemy as an intimate threat to themselves that they will do anything.

Those people are far beyond "pissed".

The Liberal Dems in Washington aren't all that interested in listening to them,

Who can learn anything from mad ranting? People disrupting a discussion in an open forum are intent on drowning out the rest of humanity with pure, unadulterated noise even after American voted for the politicians who arranged the town halls.

Our politicians, I believe, seek to clarify what is in potential legislation while getting input on how best to package the legislation to serve those who voted for them.

Sure, those "Liberal Dems" are in Washington -- but also Oregon, California, Nevada, Colorado, New Mexico... We elected them; they don't command us. But they deserve to hear the concerns of their constituents, and well-organized mobs from out of the district aren't the constituents.

dealing with them or the party who most represents their interests. America wasn't set up or designed to be a one way street, a one way freight train for liberal want or thought or a we won, get over it mentality to rule and a Mr. Liberal Happy with a liberal yes stamp.

Our system wasn't designed to be a corporate free-for-all in which the loudest shouters with powerful backers would consistently get their way despite the vote of the public, either. You can thank the likes of Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Hamilton, Madison, and Jay for that.

The way I see it, if the Democrats can't take it or hear it from the other side in Washington then they'll just have to give it to them direct and tell it to them in a less formal and a nastier way in their liberal dens at the street level.

The Hard Right lost badly in 2006 and 2008. They had their chance to win with ideas, personalities, and policies from 1994 in Congress and from 2000 in the Presidency. They apparently fouled up badly, as shown in elections that they had to rig to win and couldn't rig. It's time for the Right to re-think how it is to develop a message that appeals to the electorate of 2010 and later.

Hey, don't come at it from the self righteous high almighty Millie position.

You need not show such a concern with me; I come at it from a self-righteous High Almighty Boomer position.

You voted for Obama despite all the liberal nasty (expletive deleted) that was going on or being placed on public display. Or, did you just put all that liberal nasty (expletive deleted) that was going on on ignore or cover your eyes for your own greater good or needs? Now, if that's the case, what does that say about you in relationship to me or them? Do you really have the right to say anything bad about them when you weren't willing or able to stand up, point out and address the liberal (expletive deleted) on your side?

As a Boomer I am getting close to retirement age. I have had to start over several times in life because of the choices of corporate bosses who see people only as drains on profit because they want more than the bare means of survival. I don't want to be a peon, a sharecropper, a serf, or a slave so that a few people can live like sultans.

So far we liberals seem to be the nicer people, the ones insistent upon rational arguments, and the ones who will win in the end because we can fine-tune our arguments as people express valid concerns instead of offering all-or-nothing alternatives.

The sewage comes from your side. Your side consisted of ungracious winners; now that they have become losers they have only ratcheted up the invective and resorted to thuggish methods.

Thank God that the military isn't behind them.

Originally Posted by Kurt Horner

I have to disagree about this "astroturf" meme. The response to the health care reform debate is the first time that right-wingers (other than Ron Paul types) have used the internet in the manner that the netroots has been using it. Somehow or another (I'm still not clear how) I managed to get on the FreedomWorks mailing list -- so I've been getting their messages. The e-mails don't push any particular behavior on the part of people who go to the town halls, they just say go there and ask certain pointed questions.

It's clear to me that if their weren't a lot of people worked up about the health care debate, there wouldn't be any crowds of angry people at the town halls. It's one thing to issue "marching orders," but these protests (and their character) are entirely dependent on the people who are willing to go to the meetings. So, as much as you might like to view these protestors as puppets of unseen corporate masters -- I'm afraid you can really only say that in a deep psychological sense. They're fighting for their "team."

The sad truth is that no one needs to pay conservatives to be angry. They just are.

Hey, you're probably getting the E-mail's because you're a "Ron Paul type".

Originally Posted by K-I-A 67

Hey, you're probably getting the E-mail's because you're a "Ron Paul type".

Yeah, probably. There must be something I signed up for that lacked the usual "we will not give out your info to other groups" message.

Originally Posted by Freedom Works e-mail:

As you know, FreedomWorks does not encourage this kind of underhanded activity. We believe that at their core, our arguments centered on fundamental free market principles stand on their own, which is why we don’t resort to intimidation and lies as the Left so often does.

The above quote was preceded by a description of threatening phone calls and cyber attacks promoted by "MoveOn.org, the Unions, and others." So, it seems that pretty much everyone thinks the other side doesn't want to talk and are just interested in thuggery. Ironically, this is precisely how you create an environment of violence. As soon as everyone thinks the other guy is irrational and violent, then you must "defend yourself" and "fight back."

It's not even appropriate to discuss who "started it" although I'm sure people can come up with many reasons why this situation is all the conservatives fault or all the liberals fault. The more salient point (especially given the thread topic) is simply that an increasing percentage of politically active Americans have given up on reasoned debate. If we're lucky this will culminate in something like the Bonus Army incident where the vast majority of people sympathized with the marchers. But, on the other hand, it could culminate in a John Brown's Raid where the divisions just get wider.

Would anyone like something now offered through the public sector -- let us say schooling -- to be funded and administered as health care is? Would you like to see education supplied as a fringe benefit for working for a large employer who can take away a child's education at will by firing the parent. who would then have to either take the child out of school (because the principal at a for-profit school would no longer be getting funds to educate the child, the education would stop) unless the parent comes up with a huge outlay of cash?

Would anyone like transportation in the form of highway access so administered? Someone who lost his job would suddenly find himself without the means of using the highways to seek work. Someone who went on strike could effectively be barred from using the highways.

The current system is one of the worst in the world at providing any modicum of security of health.

Originally Posted by pbrower2a

Demagogues of the Hard Right, paid retainers of the Hard, semi-fascist Right, have riled them up.

Please see my post above. It is a crucial error to talk about the angry Right as being "pawns" of people higher up. If anything, the important change is the lack of any desire on the part of conservative leaders to dial down this anger.

Originally Posted by pbrower2a

It's time for the Right to re-think how it is to develop a message that appeals to the electorate of 2010 and later.

Why adjust to a "new paradigm" when Obama doesn't actually offer one? Seriously, what has changed? When Obama basically copies Bush on social issues, civil liberties, foreign policy and even economic policy, why would conservatives even bother adopting a new tune? They just have to demonstrate that they're better at being nationalistic, corporate tools than the Democrats are.

Originally Posted by pbrower2a

Thank God that the military isn't behind them.

I'm not sure I'd count on that. The military is probably the most conservative part of the government right now.

Originally Posted by pbrower2a

Would anyone like something now offered through the public sector -- let us say schooling -- to be funded and administered as health care is?

. . .

The current system is one of the worst in the world at providing any modicum of security of health.

No one in their right mind would want such a system. However, no one in their right mind would want health care to be like public education, either. Then you'd have Britain's NHS system which is probably the worst of the so-called "universal" systems. There are other options.

Originally Posted by Bob Butler 54

I'm not sure we are that far along. After the fall of France, Churchill made a few memorable speeches resulting in a truly united and resolved country. I doubt that Obama's NH meeting will have comperable impact. We are currently too divided, the issue isn't a uniting one, and Obama either can not or doesn't want to push in a make or break way.

Perhaps you are right. This is more like Norway!

Originally Posted by K-I-A 67

What's liberal unwanted pork like added provisions to legalize and fund euthenasia and laxed limitations and an expansion abortion doing in a healthcare bill? GIVE ME A SIMPLE, EASY, LEAN and CLEAN HEALTHCARE BILL! The problem isn't a public option, the problem is all the liberal shit that coming with it. Who does Obama think WE are, a bunch of dumn fuck liberals or something?

Wow, living wills and reproductive health are "liberal sh*t" to you?

Originally Posted by Right-Wing Astroturf Organization

As you know, FreedomWorks does not encourage this kind of underhanded activity. We believe that at their core, our arguments centered on fundamental free market principles stand on their own, which is why we don’t resort to intimidation and lies as the Left so often does.

Wow, lying and projection in two sentences, impressive. Sorry, Kurt, but you are being to kind to these people. As with Operation Rescue and the murder of Dr. Tiller these types whip up this BS and claim plausible deniablility afterwords

Originally Posted by Odin

Wow, living wills and reproductive health are "liberal sh*t" to you?

Taylor, were you aware that the section on end-of-life care was put in by that raging liberal Republican Senator Johnny Isakson of Georgia?

Originally Posted by child of socrates

taylor, were you aware that the section on end-of-life care was put in by that raging liberal republican senator johnny isakson of georgia? :d

bwahahaha!!! :d

Originally Posted by Child of Socrates

Taylor, were you aware that the section on end-of-life care was put in by that raging liberal Republican Senator Johnny Isakson of Georgia?

Are you saying the Democrats don't have any control over what goes into, gets added or piled on their healthcare bill? As I recall, you won, so get over it. This isn't Harlem or the Hamptoms, this is the vast and much broader areas that exist all around or some where in between the two blue spheres of liberal thought and thinking.

Originally Posted by Odin

Wow, living wills and reproductive health are "liberal sh*t" to you?

Personal things that should not interfered with or funded by the Government.

Vandals Strike (African-American) Congressman's Office With Spray-Painted Swastika

Originally Posted by Child of Socrates

I wouldn't have called myself indifferent to the health care issue, just rather jaded and cynical. But this outrageous behavior by the opposition has pushed me over the edge...

...BS, and...

Originally Posted by playwrite

...That began to change with DeMint's "Waterloo" comment and the blood became heated with the Town Meeting screamers...

-BS. I'll note (again) that the violence only started at these meetings when the Obamacare goons started showing up to attack Teabaggers; something which both of the above posters avoid mentioning.

Originally Posted by writerGrrl

Protest all you want, but don't blame anything on ACORN. ACORN is a non-issue and that is cowardly and juvenile...

-You are wrong; it looks like the the thug detachmnets which attacked Tabaggers at the Tampa & St. Louis town hall meetings got their recruits from SEIU & ACORN. Or didn't you know?

Originally Posted by Odin

Many of these Screamers are PAID REPUBLICAN HACKS...

-What sort of hacks are SEIU or ACORN members?

And I never got a real reply to this point, made by Jonah Goldberg:

Originally Posted by jamesdglick

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/08/08/americans_dont_like_dems_health_plan_97824.html

"...how can we ignore the fact that the world's most famous community organizer is whining about community organizing?"

Originally Posted by Child of Socrates

I think these people are doing a great job of marginalizing themselves (and notice I'm using the term "marginalize" rather than your more inflammatory "eliminate." ...

-If using snitch websites to track opponents, and using goons to break up protests doesn't marginalize the administration, what would?

---

Originally Posted by haymarket martyr

WARNING: The poster known as jamesdglick has a history of engaging in fraud. He makes things up out of his own head and attempts to use these blatant lies to score points in his arguments. When you call him on it, he will only lie further. He has such a reputation for doing this that many people here are cowed into silence and will not acknowledge it or confront him on it.

Anyone who attempts to engage with glick will discover this and find out you have wasted your time and energy on an intellectual fraud of the worst sort.

-So cry many Boomers (self-professed Lefties, mostly) whenever they fail to explain their hypocritical self-justifications, their double-standards, and their double-think forays into evil. Perhaps their consciences bother them, perhaps not. Who knows.

Originally Posted by K-I-A 67

Hey, don't come at it from the self righteous high almighty Millie position.

What is that supposed to mean? Don't come at the issue from my own position on said issue?

Yes, my own position happens to be what you call the "self righteous high almighty Millie position." I will not apologize for this.