Be aware of the kind of absolute binary you are ascribing to your thoughts. This "my people are saints and your people are demons" attitude will only entrench you with like-minded peers much further, and to your detriment.Originally Posted by Odin
If things were only that simple to be taken as truth (only left-wing movements are grassroots), there wouldn't be such complex problems that are happening right now.
Right-Wing liberal, slow progressive, and other contradictions straddling both the past and future, but out of touch with the present . . .
"We also know there are known unknowns.
That is to say, we know there are some things we do not know." - Donald Rumsfeld
That was something I liked about Russia. If a guy was going to fuck you over, he'd just out and do it. And at the same time, people who seemed like they were with you -- actually were.
Maybe that's just the way it looks during the period where Nomads make up the adults in a society. Something to look forward to here, I suppose.
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch
"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy
"[it] is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky
RIGHT, because Mayor Daley's gang is representative of all Liberals, NOT. And his bullshit is minuscule compared to manipulated Diebold electronic election machines and disenfranchisement of minorities by republicans.-Minorities like Superman, Mickey Mouse, and the occassional fake or dead voter who isn't inconvenienced by a silly name.
Why doesn't fraud bother Lefties? Reminds of of the joke Charlie Rangel supposedly told: "When I die, I want to be buried in Chicago, where I'll be able to continue voting as a Democrat."
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.
-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism
I'm not saying my side is always right. I'm saying calling unions and MoveOn.Org "astroturf" is nonsense, as is Glick's BS about them being "violent thugs".
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.
-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism
You are truly amazing. Just when I think you couldn't be more moronic, you come up with a doozy like this.
Ah, the founding fathers broke away from a monarchy. Yes, in some ways, the Constitution reigned in the free-wheeling approach outlined in the Declaration, but it certainly didn't return us to what was before 1776. You crankies truly are ungrateful morons.
Bullshit. On the other hand, the FFs would blow their brains out after seeing what you know-nothing screamers are doing to individual rights at the town hall meetings.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service
“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke
"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman
If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite
Deja Vu during the Bush II years. At least you see our faces.
I would urge everyone seriously interested in the spiral of violence to read this report from the Southern Poverty Law Center. Militia activity and arms stockpiling are skyrocketing. Something is bound to come of it, although I doubt these people are capable of anything sustained and well-organized.
I think the Republican Party has gone a bit mad--it seems to have no purpose other than to create confusion and chaos and try to make anything the Administration does fail. I was depressed this week to read that the White House has agreed with the Senate Finance Committee to drop the public option--actually the opportunity for anyone to buy into medicare, it seems--in order to create bipartisanship. But Obama may be gambling that if he can pass something with the support of six Senate Republicans, the rest of them will self-destruct. And he could be right.
Obama's poll numbers are apparently rising.
Last edited by KaiserD2; 08-13-2009 at 08:54 PM. Reason: addition
David Kaiser '47
My blog: History Unfolding
My book: The Road to Dallas: The Assassination of John F. Kennedy
What exactly are you referring to? This should be a hoot.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service
“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke
"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman
If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite
Yeah, those guys who stole stuff, destroyed people's homes and livelihoods, and tarred and feathered with great glee would have been so very distraught to see a bit of yelling and screaming.
Though, looked at another way, you may be right. I mean, it would probably be really depressing to them to see just how shallow, lazy, and complacent the state of "dissent" has fallen in so short a time. It's almost like all their work was for nothing. That might drive a guy to eat a bullet, after all...
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch
"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy
"[it] is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky
I was thinking more John Adams (prior to his Presidency), rather than Sam Adams -- but, point taken.Yeah, those guys who stole stuff, destroyed people's homes and livelihoods, and tarred and feathered with great glee would have been so very distraught to see a bit of yelling and screaming.
This is my true complaint. The Founders certainly pushed things far beyond mere vocal protests, but there was a profound intellectual basis behind it that left a legacy that is hard for anything else in world history to compare.
What we have in today's screamers is banality at best.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service
“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke
"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman
If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite
I think Sam would like it, John would not.
Yea, but after John talked with Sam, Sam would decide to use his always-at-hand tar and feathers on the screamers.
Unfortunately, for the screamers, I think their current health insurers would disallow coverage for this.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service
“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke
"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman
If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite
Deja Vu during the Bush II years. At least you see our faces.
Most protesters during the Bush years never showed there faces, just their disdain for Bush, Police and the destruction of private property. The Founding Fathers would be disgusted with both tactics being used and both are wrong. There are valid concerns and yes other citizens who do not agree with your point of view should also be heard. FF would agree on that point.
Last edited by wtrg8; 08-14-2009 at 11:07 AM.
If the Dems kill the public option, I move into the opposition. Killing that will create a windfall for the very groups that need to reigned in. We don't need a continuation of the second corporatist party of Bill Clinton.
Maybe Camille Paglia is right. A pox on both their houses.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.
I will freely admit being out of the loop all summer on all things political. But Jesus Christ... if there's no public option, and we don't go single-payer, where, may I ask, is the reform?
"Better hurry. There's a storm coming. His storm!!!" :-O -Abigail Freemantle, "The Stand" by Stephen King
Where did you think the significant (that is, significant to the people enacting it) support is coming from? The corporatist party is the only party there is. Has been for at least as long as I've been alive...
Of course she was right -- she very frequently is. But the pox we've been casting for the past decade hasn't really made any dents in their houses. Not that we don't appreciate your camaraderie, but don't go expecting any results that are any good for you except by accident.Maybe Camille Paglia is right. A pox on both their houses.
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch
"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy
"[it] is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky
Check Mike's post here -
http://www.fourthturning.com/forum/s...3&postcount=91
while we may have different reasons why or how, it seems we're all thinking the same as to where we are going.
I don't think anyone should be looking forward to this with any glee.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service
“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke
"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman
If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite
Sorry, if I made you think that was directed at you or Xers.
I think I was just trying to share bad karma.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service
“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke
"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman
If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite
On the Progressives' fear & loathing of the limited government principles of the Founding Fathers:
1) I don't remember any of the FF's mentioning 35% marginal income tax rates, food stamps, a government-mandated ponzi scheme, or socialized medicine as part of their vision for America;
2) The FF's would note that the Teabaggers are the ones supporting individual rights against unresponsive politicians, and the Teabaggers are gaining ground, which is why the government fears them. Which takes us to...
3) The FF's would note that governement sponsored goons are attacking the Teabaggers, not the other way around (so far, the Teabaggers haven't even fought back);
4) Uh, Sam Adams & John Hancock were the original Teabaggers. DUH!
-The attackers in St.Louis and Tampa were Obamacare supporters of the Union/ACORN variety, the victims were Teabaggers. People who do that merit the term "violent thugs". Or do you prefer a different euphemism?
Even Haymarket mentions it (while adding spin):
...what Haymarket failed to mentions is that police arrested the thugs who attacked Mr. Gladney. Haymarket also fails to mention others whom the Union/ACORN types attacked in Tampa, and in St. Louis.
But nice try.
-Did I mention Detroit and Philly? I'm sure others can come up with examples.
1) Proof?
2) In 2004, the American people re-elected President GW Bush by a larger margin in every single state except SD (60.2% down to pro-Donkey fraudulent voting on Indian reservations), and NC (the Senator Edwards VP effect). This includes "Blue" states, and states which had nothing to do with the Diebold machines, which (BTW) the Donkey's themselves demanded be used, as a cop-out to explain the Donkey-created fiasco in FL back in 2000.
Check the stat's yourself, and find another cop-out.
-The SPLC comes up with this sort of stuff whenever the American people wake up to the Donkey's nonsense.
Please note that there is ZERO evidence for this, and that threat/protection levels in general, and for the POTUS, are unchanged.
But nice try.
---
Back to Playwrite:
I'd still love to know: When PW was supposedly visiting SE Asia, did he bother to check out the "Anti-War" movement's handiwork in the re-education camps, and in the killing fields? The answer seems to be NO...
Back to Haymarket':
I'd still love to know: Who paid Haymarket's Military Service Tax? Come on, I know you're retired, Haymarket. I'd think it'd be easy to go check out the old county draft records from 1969. You can look the guy up, and thank him for his inconvenience...
---
-So cry many Boomers (self-professed Lefties, mostly) whenever they fail to explain their hypocritical self-justifications, their double-standards, and their double-think forays into evil. Perhaps their consciences bother them, perhaps not. Who knows.
The FFs didn't address gasoline taxes, internet property rights issues, or air traffic control, either. The world has changed since 1789.
Also, the FFs allowed slavery and didn't allow females to vote. Should we revert back to that?
I want people to know that peace is possible even in this stupid day and age. Prem Rawat, June 8, 2008
One of the things I have speculated might come about this time around is the possibility that 2012 would find both parties equally (and fatally) discredited.
I tend to strongly agree with you on this.
The question then becomes, what happens next?
-Que Sera Sera.
-The more things change, the more they stay the same(). Technology may change, but people don't:
1) There weren't gasoline taxes, but there were sales & excise taxes (which are authorized under the US Constitution), in some countries, this included taxes on fuel, like coal or firewood;
2) There was no internet, but there were property rights (including patents and copyrights, specifically mentioned in the US Constitution) ;
3) There was no aerial navigation, but there was navigation on waterways.
The same principles apply.
Income taxes existed, but the FFs rejected them.
If you need to amend the USC, then (IIRC) Article V gives us the means to do so, which is how got the XVI Amendment. But I stand by my statement that most of the FFs would not have been happy to see a USA where some people have 35%* of their income taken by their fellow taxpayers right off the top (to say nothing of the SS Ponzi Scheme).
*In most parts of Europe, the basic off-the-top take for a feudal lord from his serfs was one-third.
...as for women (XIX Amendment) or blacks voting, (XV), maybe not; but with the advantage of hindsight, I think they'd be open-minded to the results.
As for the abolition of slavery, the vast majority of the FFs would have been quite pleased.
...as for my comment here:
...notice that the Progreesive tack consists of slamming the FFs, with an implied commensurate salute to the supposed moral superiority of the slammee. Ahem.
I commented on this before:
---
Back to Playwrite:
I'd still love to know: When PW was supposedly visiting SE Asia, did he bother to check out the "Anti-War" movement's handiwork in the re-education camps, and in the killing fields? The answer seems to be NO...
Back to Haymarket':
I'd still love to know: Who paid Haymarket's Military Service Tax? Come on, I know you're retired, Haymarket. I'd think it'd be easy to go check out the old county draft records from 1969. You can look the guy up, and thank him for his inconvenience...
---
-So cry many Boomers (self-professed Lefties, mostly) whenever they fail to explain their hypocritical self-justifications, their double-standards, and their double-think forays into evil. Perhaps their consciences bother them, perhaps not. Who knows.
C'mon, Jimmy-boy... we all know that self-professed Righties do exactly the same thing. Moreover, when they do explain, both extremes are also well known for spouting "facts" which can neither be proven nor disproven, that are thus impossible to argue against, as justification for their beliefs. And this approach isn't limited to Boomers either... lots of Xers join in with their "me-toos". This is why I usually blow off people with strong, extreme views as entitiled to their opinion, but whatever.
"Better hurry. There's a storm coming. His storm!!!" :-O -Abigail Freemantle, "The Stand" by Stephen King
