Wow, what evil, treasonous, seditious BS!

Originally Posted by independent

U.S. Violent Crime Rates Lowest Recorded
http://reason.com/blog/show/136062.html

It is interesting to note that despite the rise in politically motivated attacks, the broader crime statistics have continued their downward slide.

Has anyone heard about this in the MSM? I guess the news is just too good to report.

1. Any coup would be an unconstitutional assault on the sole activity that most of us have in our system: voting or perhaps electioneering (as in participating in get-out-the-vote drives). A coup would forcefully repudiate a choice that Americans clearly made in November 2008, Barack Obama got an unambiguous majority of American votes and won them in a manner that allowed him to win election. He won fair and square, with no residual question of even any semblance of cheating. Obama won 266 electoral votes by statewide margins of 10% or greater... and nobody has claimed that any state that he won beyond those 266 electoral votes (270 would be enough for an outright win) was won through electoral shenanigans of any kind -- not New Hampshire, Colorado, Virginia, Ohio, Florida, Indiana, or North Carolina. Obama's election left fewer lingering questions than did the 2000 and 2004 elections in Florida and Ohio, respectively.

Elections may not be enough for democracy, but they are absolutely essential. Anyone who forcefully negates the results of a lawful election negates such democracy as exists. I would have never endorsed a coup to overturn the 2000 or 2004 elections, either, even though I despise George W. Bush as vehemently as Obama's detractors despise the current President even if fraud decided a critical statewide election. (Nothing in the Constitution guarantees that the state will supply electors in accordance with a fair election, so we must live with the results even if we dislike them). To overturn a Presidential election would be to overthrow democracy.

2. Coups are rare in advanced industrial countries. The record in the countries most similar in political development and cultural heritage in which military coups have overthrown lawfully-elected governments in the last fifty years (Argentina, Chile, and Uruguay in the 1970's and either Greece or Brazil in the 1960s) is ugliness without qualification. The military dictatorship invariably sides with plutocrats, executives, foreign investors, and big landowners against everyone else. Economic inequality intensifies, and personal freedom disappears. Would things be different here? I think not.

3. The economic failure, as manifest in government takeovers and forced mergers of failing giant enterprises (typically in the financial sector and investment banking) began while George W. Bush was President as the result of policies intended to enrich the "right people". Obama has not accelerated the process... and it is going to take considerable time before bailed-out entities become suitable for sale to investors. The heavy reliance upon foreign investors to finance American consumer spending reflects choices made long before January 2009 to create an illusion of prosperity for people whose real pay was shrinking.

The American electorate seems to have voted for Obama as the one to negate or reverse destructive trends that began when Dubya was President. We are responsible for the results that come from our choices of President in 2000, 2004, and 2008, and we are fools if we expect any Man on a White Horse to rescue us.

4. Military officers can lobby the President on matters of military policy, diplomacy, and intelligence that directly or indirectly affect the competence of the Armed Services -- but for good reason they must never take a share in determining domestic policy.

5. Danger of war erupting in multiple places? That happened about 70 years ago, and our lawfully-elected President led us through that war very effectively.

6. Military honor? Can anyone think of anything that would more tarnish the honor of our Armed Services than a military coup? The military exists to rescue civilian governments from their follies and to enforce the international decisions of the President and Congress when diplomacy fails whether due to the incompetence of diplomats, the self-delusion of the President and Congress, or the deal-breaking of an adversary.

7. To be sure, some Congressional Representatives and Senators would rather collaborate with a military cabal than deal with the current President -- but if you think divided or indecisive government dangerous even with an unpopular President, then just think of how divided and indecisive our government would be if some cabal seized the Executive Branch and left the Legislative branch alone. Think of course how little legitimacy the military cabal would have if it dissolved Congress! I could imagine some state legislatures seceding from a dictatorial government. Such an entity as the "Republic of Oregon" or the "Republic of Pennsylvania" would have instant legitimacy.

There is no non-violent alternative to Obama as President now any more than there was a non-violent alternative to George W. Bush as President any time between 2001 and 2009. Even a "non-violent" coup leaves state terror and mass murder as well as repression in its wake. The seditious scribbler wants a Pinochet-type leader to take over America, only to be "kinder and gentler".

I trust the military to do the right thing. If Obama is as incompetent a President as he seems to the Hard Right, then he will face a greatly-shrunken majorities in the House and Senate if not their disappearance, and he will lose decisively in 2012. We will just have to wait for the 2010 and 2012 elections.

Originally Posted by KaiserD2

This was pure agitprop. I can guarantee you after 20 years among the military that there is no group of officers thinking along those lines. It is not in their DNA.

More significantly it is not in the culture, training, or moral universe of our Officer Corps, let alone part of the political heritage of the United States.

Of course it is agitprop -- but it is also sedition. I can't imagine it emanating from any military officers who well know who the Real Boss {the President, a/k/a, Commander in Chief) is in accordance with our Constitution. Our upper military officers are intelligent people who surely take offense at such stuff. But it does express what parts (if not all) of the Hard Right believes -- even the delusion that some of the highest-ranking offers share the same view of Barack Obama as President and contemplate such a "solution".

If it's a lone wolf, then so what? We still have people who fancy themselves as would-be American equivalents of tyrants of other times and places, and they will surely fail. If there is any group who advocates such, then TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 115 > § 2385 could apply. It was used against Commies in the 1950s:

Whoever knowingly or willfully advocates, abets, advises, or teaches the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying the government of the United States or the government of any State, Territory, District or Possession thereof, or the government of any political subdivision therein, by force or violence, or by the assassination of any officer of any such government; or

Whoever, with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of any such government, prints, publishes, edits, issues, circulates, sells, distributes, or publicly displays any written or printed matter advocating, advising, or teaching the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying any government in the United States by force or violence, or attempts to do so; or

Whoever organizes or helps or attempts to organize any society, group, or assembly of persons who teach, advocate, or encourage the overthrow or destruction of any such government by force or violence; or becomes or is a member of, or affiliates with, any such society, group, or assembly of persons, knowing the purposes thereof—

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction.

If two or more persons conspire to commit any offense named in this section, each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction.

As used in this section, the terms “organizes” and “organize”, with respect to any society, group, or assembly of persons, include the recruiting of new members, the forming of new units, and the regrouping or expansion of existing clubs, classes, and other units of such society, group, or assembly of persons.

Originally Posted by Odin

http://www.democraticunderground.com...ss=389x5227391

This thread on DU started by a Latin American poster that says he lived through a civil war and claims that there are organized elements on the Loony Right that are trying to start one scared the bejeebees out of me.

Since I started that thread that has been long archived... there are so many things that are pointing to things going down into a spiral of violence that it is not even funny. Even some of the TV. Watching the History Channel special on what happens after we get a nuke (by terrorists of course) go off in down town DC.

Now to be fair can that happen? Possibly.

Is it likely? No.

But think why there is a need to keep us afraid... and I doubt it is a coincidence that this program is running the weekend Capitalism: A Love Story hit wide distro.

As they say... there are no coincidences, or to quote a fictional character of mine... coincidences are for fools and idiots.

Originally Posted by nadinbrzezinski

Since I started that thread that has been long archived... there are so many things that are pointing to things going down into a spiral of violence that it is not even funny. Even some of the TV. Watching the History Channel special on what happens after we get a nuke (by terrorists of course) go off in down town DC.

Now to be fair can that happen? Possibly.

Is it likely? No.

But think why there is a need to keep us afraid... and I doubt it is a coincidence that this program is running the weekend Capitalism: A Love Story hit wide distro.

As they say... there are no coincidences, or to quote a fictional character of mine... coincidences are for fools and idiots.

About time you account got activiated, Nadine! Welcome!

now I can hold some discussions at a different place, still soughing through the book by the way.

Originally Posted by KaiserD2

However, you can't compare the scale of the feeling against him [JFK] to Obama or Clinton.

Understandable. In Kennedy's day, the Awakening hadn't happened yet. I'm sure you remember how fears of Communist subversion that had been so prevalent during the High were stirred again during the Awakening, and how the cultural segment that has become today's right wing (which is different from conservatism then) saw the changes of that time as the End Of America.

I think that those on the nay-side of the 2T saw the Reagan presidency as putting an end to it all. Clinton's election in 1992 was a shock not because he was a liberal (he wasn't) but because he was a draft-dodging, pot-smoking womanizer who was on the wrong side of the Vietnam War, which was a major defining issue of the Awakening. That a man like that could be elected president showed that things had changed in the American culture more than these folks were comfortable with. They saw him as illegitimate not because of any electoral irregularities but because it was unthinkable that someone like that could be acceptable in the White House. He was a symbol more than a president to them.

Obama is a symbol, too, obviously. Things have REALLY changed if a black man with a foreign-sounding name can be president, and the America of the High is gone, or at least reduced to a permanent minority.

Bush was a little different. He was seen as illegitimate, I think, purely because of the irregularities of the 2000 election and the perception that it had been stolen by Bush's sympathizers on the Supreme Court. That kind of thing always comes up in a very close election, and unlike 1960, the outcome would have been different if Florida had gone the other way. But this didn't stop the country from rallying behind him (briefly) after 9/11. Had he proven an effective leader, questions of legitimacy would have been forgotten.

Originally Posted by pbrower2a

“1. Any coup would be an unconstitutional assault on the sole activity that most of us have in our system: voting …
Elections may not be enough for democracy, but they are absolutely essential. Anyone who forcefully negates the results of a lawful election negates such democracy as exists. I would have never endorsed a coup to overturn the 2000 or 2004 elections, either, even though I despise George W. Bush as vehemently as Obama's detractors…

3. …We are responsible for the results that come from our choices of President in 2000, 2004, and 2008, and we are fools if we expect any Man on a White Horse to rescue us.

7. To be sure, some Congressional Representatives and Senators would rather collaborate with a military cabal than deal with the current President …

I trust the military to do the right thing. If Obama is as incompetent a President as he seems to the Hard Right, then he will face a greatly-shrunken majorities in the House and Senate if not their disappearance, and he will lose decisively in 2012. We will just have to wait for the 2010 and 2012 elections.

You have eloquently made the case that we should support our elected Presidents (This includes both President Obama & President Bush) and I agree with the majority of what you wrote. Even though I don’t agree with some of Obama’s polices (such as abortion), I don’t despise President Obama and recognize that since he was selected by a lawful election, he is not the cause of my concern. The US voters are the source and cause of what I ether like or don’t like in our government policies.

I do have a problem with your statement that some in Congress would ‘rather collaborate with a military cabal’. I haven’t seen this. Do you have any evidence?

I also trust the military to do the right thing and my concern with President Obama (and most other presidents) is not incompetence, but rather the competence to move the country in wrong direction (as I see it). For example, I think that our current military budget should be increased or at least not cut. This area will be clearer after President Obama releases his out-year budget proposals.

Based on the results of the last election, the apparent mood of the electorate, and the demographic trends, I would expect President Obama to win reelection. Things can change, but right now the ‘Hard Right’ looks to me like the shrinking minority.

Originally Posted by nadinbrzezinski

now I can hold some discussions at a different place, still soughing through the book by the way.

Are you related to Zbigniew Brzezinski? I went to grad school with his son, Ian, although I didn't get to know him well.

Originally Posted by radind

You have eloquently made the case that we should support our elected Presidents (This includes both President Obama & President Bush) and I agree with the majority of what you wrote. Even though I don’t agree with some of Obama’s polices (such as abortion), I don’t despise President Obama and recognize that since he was selected by a lawful election, he is not the cause of my concern. The US voters are the source and cause of what I ether like or don’t like in our government policies.

I do have a problem with your statement that some in Congress would ‘rather collaborate with a military cabal’. I haven’t seen this. Do you have any evidence?

I won't name names; there are some nutty members of Congress and the Senate on the extreme Right who look forward to change very different from that which President Obama wants. That might not be even the majority of the Republican Party; patience is a rare virtue among extremists. I won't name behaviors or Congressional districts either, as such would be potentially libelous. Sedition is a serious crime, and the mere proclivity for someone to take one of the villainous roles in a scenario similar to one in Seven Days in May if all went wrong is not crime in itself. This isn't Stalin's Soviet Union or Saddam Hussein's Iraq in which one can be convicted for proclivities to do wrong.

it's time for people who have strange theories of Barack Obama as a usurper to suck it up. He seems to have most of the characteristics of a good-to-great leader. The "birther" stuff is nonsense associated with people prone to believing odd conspiracy theories, and the tea-bag "rebellion" is literally a tempest in a teapot..

He has never taken the path of maximal gain for himself and himself alone. He could have easily used his talents for some more lucrative, yet less admirable purpose. He could have become a corporate lawyer who gets huge pay as a legal enforcer for Corporate America. He could have used his talents as a defense attorney for gangsters, He could have become the sort of politician who enriches himself on political corruption. I think that he could have had a more lucrative career in media as an actor, a TV journalist, or a sports announcer.

I also trust the military to do the right thing and my concern with President Obama (and most other presidents) is not incompetence, but rather the competence to move the country in wrong direction (as I see it). For example, I think that our current military budget should be increased or at least not cut. This area will be clearer after President Obama releases his out-year budget proposals.

Circumstances in a 4T will dictate whether America must spend more on defense and tolerate the militarization of life "for the duration". So it was in the last two Crisis Eras, when the American economy proved eminently capable to meet new and unforeseen needs to shift from civilian indulgence to military needs. What is dangerous is having bought into military infrastructure that is easily destroyed in a surprise attack on over-centralized production facilities and obsolete equipment.Military establishments usually prepare well for meeting the most recent calamity. This 4T will not look like either World War II or the Cold War. Flexibility is far more valuable than is superb-but-rigid preparation for the wrong situation.

The military culture is appropriate for the military, and not for anything else. It's a poor model for almost everything else, as blind obedience and single-minded devotion stifle creativity, innovation, and enterprise. Family life, education, commerce, religion, science, and politics can operate on rigid discipline and lines of authority -- but not reliably.

Based on the results of the last election, the apparent mood of the electorate, and the demographic trends, I would expect President Obama to win reelection. Things can change, but right now the ‘Hard Right’ looks to me like the shrinking minority.

The public mood is still much what it was in November 2008. President Obama hasn't won over his detractors, but he has held fast to the support that he had in November. People convinced that he was the worst possible choice to be President remain as resolute now as they were eleven months ago. Culture matters greatly in political life, and one year is far too short to smooth out tendencies in American life that have existed for decades. Should the public mood remain much as it is, Obama will win re-election in 2012 even with an economy in a slow recovery because almost everyone recognizes that we can't resuscitate the corrupt boom of the George W. Bush era.

Our President is not beyond critical judgment. His vision could be flawed or even perverse, and he could have pulled the wool over liberal eyes with the Hard Right having unique insights inherent in its adherents that others lack. Eminent reasons exist for political traditions new in 1789 that have continued to this day. The same process that got us George W. Bush, whom many consider one of the worst Presidents in American history has brought us Barack Obama, full assessment of merits will require developments in history to determine, just as they did with George W. Bush, who at a similar stage in his Presidency seemed to be the greatest President since at least FDR.

You don't need the late Paul Harvey to tell you the Rest of the Story.

Originally Posted by pbrower2a

Circumstances in a 4T will dictate whether America must spend more on defense and tolerate the militarization of life "for the duration". So it was in the last two Crisis Eras, when the American economy proved eminently capable to meet new and unforeseen needs to shift from civilian indulgence to military needs. What is dangerous is having bought into military infrastructure that is easily destroyed in a surprise attack on over-centralized production facilities and obsolete equipment.Military establishments usually prepare well for meeting the most recent calamity. This 4T will not look like either World War II or the Cold War. Flexibility is far more valuable than is superb-but-rigid preparation for the wrong situation.

I'm mostly with you, but a military focused towards probable threats might be better than total flexibility. We also have to focus on current commitments. It is hard to invest in flexibility when we haven't sufficient forces to resolve what we are currently trying to do.

Through the Cold War we had to focus quite a bit on containing expansionist powers. I believe we were slow to shift off that, to shift capability towards counter insurgency, nation building and peace keeping.

The Pentagon is considering next generation wars, the possible implications of climate shift. The habitable zone is apt to shift north somewhat, possibly resulting in a need for migrations. How this might effect doctrine, I'm not sure.

Originally Posted by Bob Butler 54

I'm mostly with you, but a military focused towards probable threats might be better than total flexibility. We also have to focus on current commitments. It is hard to invest in flexibility when we haven't sufficient forces to resolve what we are currently trying to do.

Through the Cold War we had to focus quite a bit on containing expansionist powers. I believe we were slow to shift off that, to shift capability towards counter insurgency, nation building and peace keeping.

The Pentagon is considering next generation wars, the possible implications of climate shift. The habitable zone is apt to shift north somewhat, possibly resulting in a need for migrations. How this might effect doctrine, I'm not sure.

Global warming will have severe effects in time for the next scheduled 4T -- when the Mediterranean basin begins to resemble the Persian Gulf as we know it in climate and the Baltic basin begins to resemble the Mediterranean as we know it, when the "Texahara" Desert forms between Dallas and Calgary, Tokyo and Shanghai get hit by tropical storms, alligators begin to infest the Potomac and Ohio Rivers, and Venice disappears into the sea.

Originally Posted by KaiserD2

This was pure agitprop. I can guarantee you after 20 years among the military that there is no group of officers thinking along those lines. It is not in their DNA.

I can't agree more. Why do the "clear thinkers" in the hyper-conservative business and political punditry communities seem to believe that the military is "on their side"?

This bozo idea reminds me of the Business Plot, and holds as much promise of success.

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

I can't agree more. Why do the "clear thinkers" in the hyper-conservative business and political punditry communities seem to believe that the military is "on their side"?

This bozo idea reminds me of the Business Plot, and holds as much promise of success.

The Business Plot against FDR was a spectacular epic fail. They messed with the wrong general!

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

I can't agree more. Why do the "clear thinkers" in the hyper-conservative business and political punditry communities seem to believe that the military is "on their side"?

This bozo idea reminds me of the Business Plot, and holds as much promise of success.

It's called projection. They figure that the only part of the US government that they admire -- the military -- thinks like them.

For good reason every country pays its admirals, generals, commanders, and colonels well -- well enough that they (even in retirement) are exempt from the vicissitudes of the economy.

Originally Posted by pbrower2a

Global warming will have severe effects in time for the next scheduled 4T -- when the Mediterranean basin begins to resemble the Persian Gulf as we know it in climate and the Baltic basin begins to resemble the Mediterranean as we know it, when the "Texahara" Desert forms between Dallas and Calgary, Tokyo and Shanghai get hit by tropical storms, alligators begin to infest the Potomac and Ohio Rivers, and Venice disappears into the sea.

Actually, according to a climate map I saw once, the "Texahara" will form along those parts of the Gulf Coast that don't end up underwater. North Carolina finds itself with a Mediterranean climate (as does Japan), and much of the continental US interior (including Tennessee) becomes steppe.

Originally Posted by SVE-KRD

Actually, according to a climate map I saw once, the "Texahara" will form along those parts of the Gulf Coast that don't end up underwater. North Carolina finds itself with a Mediterranean climate (as does Japan), and much of the continental US interior (including Tennessee) becomes steppe.

I am already considering designing beach-front condos in Arizona. Washington DC area already has snake fish population in the Potomac and whatever other crazy species you can find in the water system. Time to go helicopter hunting of alligator's and Python's in the Everglades.

Originally Posted by wtrg8

I am already considering designing beach-front condos in Arizona. Washington DC area already has snake fish population in the Potomac and whatever other crazy species you can find in the water system. Time to go helicopter hunting of alligator's and Python's in the Everglades.

Here's a good idea: lay off the gators, and save your ammo for the snakes.

Originally Posted by SVE-KRD

Here's a good idea: lay off the gators, and save your ammo for the snakes.

Right. The alligators belong in Florida, and the giant snakes don't. Alligators fear us, which one can't say of giant snakes. I saw one zookeeper claim that he feared the reticulated python more than any other non-venomous animal in the zoo -- even more than the bears, hyenas, and big cats.

Reticulated pythons can eat alligators, which says something about giant snakes.

... Pythons were brought to Florida as "exotic pets". Only one predator that ever grows large enough to eat people is a suitable pet -- and it barks. Second-best is a cat -- a small one that can't kill and eat people. I've seen some effusive praise for ferrets, but they are tricky to keep. Birds are OK, but some bring ethical issues to the fore (smuggling -- the bird trade is an atrocity), and cats and dogs think of them as dinner.

An important read -

http://economistsview.typepad.com/ec...terrorism.html

"Will Economic Inequality Lead to Terrorism?"

Bruce Judson with a description of a "chilling call" that occurred while he "was a guest on OnPoint which is distributed nationally by NPR." As he notes in an email, "the post raises an important issue. All of the discussion of economic inequality essentially presumes that people continue to view the existing economic system as legitimate. As foreclosure rise, jobs disappear, and the divide between the have's and have not's increases, our ability to take this for granted becomes less clear":
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A few minutes later the show took calls. The show received a chilling call from an out of work nuclear engineer–who had helped to build 13 nuclear power plants but had not worked in two years. You can read the transcript of his call below, or click to listen to his call here.
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TOM ASHBROOK: Certainly inequality’s a big issue. Let me get a call right here from New London, Connecticut. And

Don. Hi, Don. You’re on the air.

CALLER: Hi.

TOM ASHBROOK: Hi.

CALLER: I think you should be listening to this guy, Judson. I’m an unemployed nuclear engineer. I’ve worked on 13 nuclear power plants. Making a dirty bomb is not a big deal. I’m not going to go out and tell everybody now to do it, but I’m just saying things like that can happen. And it sounds like you’re just being dismissive of all his ideas and what he’s saying. Because there’s a lot of anger out here, and there are a lot of people who feel that the American Dream is slipping away from them, they don’t have a chance. And the only entrepreneurial opportunity for them is to sell drugs and to be an outlaw. It’s happening.

TOM ASHBROOK: [OVERLAPPING] I hear you, [PH] Don. We’ve got Bruce on for an hour. So, I can’t say we’re not listening to him. But let me ask you, you’ve got a lot of expertise in your field, nuclear engineering. But does that mean you’re unhappy if you’re unemployed? Do you really feel like the country’s ready to revolt?

CALLER: I’m not an expert in revolution, and I don’t really know how they happen. All I know is I’m 60 years old. There’s not a lot of people who want to hire a nuclear engineer who’s 60 years old. And there are a lot of people out there like me who are out there who, you know, once you have so much gray hair, you’re out of here. And there’s just a lot of people that are just not happy with the way that the country’s going right now. And I don’t know…where it’s going to take it, or what’s going to be its spark, or what’s going to be the event. But people feel like there’s just no way to climb out of the hole. Like there’s just nothing that’s going to get them out. This attitude, that I’ve seen, over 60 years, I’ve never seen anything like it. It scares me.

TOM ASHBROOK: Up against it. And with an education, a particular education. Don, thank you for your call.

Found this interesting. I was looking at the discussion board for a Republican group on facebook.

To whom it may concern,

“We The People", the FREE people of these United States. Will be forced to march to our respective state capitols, in revolt against the destruction of our constitutional republic if you do not cease and desist from your violations of the law. You must begin immediate reversal of the erosion of the constitution. We patriots will not take your excuses anymore. We are sick and tired of your lies, your constant disregard toward us, and your prostitution of this great nation.

To be more specific in the details of our grievance, we are not corporations, and corporations will not have rights of people. Most every law you have made in the past 100 years is in complete violation of the 10th amendment. You have restricted our first amendment, our right to assemble, and slowly are attempting to destroy the 2nd amendment and our right to protect ourselves because you know you have to in order to keep us from rebelling. There are more violations than can be named. It is your job to know the law and what is in violation of the law. We should not need to tell you. We put you in your position to uphold the law, not to make it up as is most profitable to international bankers and your campaign.

We have been watching you, we know who you are, and we have seen your true colors. We know who funds most of your campaigns. We have realized the charade behind the two party systems that has been played before us, which is only to disguise the monopoly of power behind the scenes by playing alternating good cop bad cop. We are telling you, it ends now and to make it more clear if necessary, THIS WILL ONLY CONTINUE OVER OUR DEAD BODIES. It may be up to you how many bodies that is. This is not a threat but a promise. We are arming, we are preparing, we are studying in the final and absolute defeat of the “new world order” president Bush so frequently referred to. We are not dumbed down citizens, but refined patriots marching for our freedoms with technologies and weaponry our founding fathers would have only dreamed of. You all have been lazy while we have been preparing and your arrogance will be your downfall if you do not immediately take proactive measures to restore the constitutional republic as intended by our founding fathers. The longer you postpone action, the stronger we bond against your tyranny and the more numbers you have against you.

If you will not receive us as patriots and defenders of our great nation, if you will not recognize our will and mindfulness of your mess, if you disregard our petitions and protests anymore, you will leave us with no choice but action. We are trying to resolve these issues in a peaceful manor. We are trying to be civil, with protests and phone calls. We are here asking you for your help but telling you, when that help does not arrive, we will have no choice but to act upon our civic responsibilities as Americans and defend our constitution from your tyranny. We are voicing our opinions and concerns on news stations and radio shows, writing you letters and emails of our disgust, filing petitions for redress of grievances against your collective power hungry antics, and yet you shut us out of your offices, remove us from town halls, refuse to take our calls, destroy our letters, and continue to participate in the same illegal acts we have already confronted you with. Instead of addressing our issues, you insist on discrediting our cause or ignoring it all together, hoping it will go away while it grows vigorously. You label us lunatics and crazies on TV because you cant win with facts and must rely on ignorant and often slanderous personal attacks instead.

We are done with polite requests and may be done with you personally as a representative if you do not act now. We are no longer taking your crap and will not tolerate excuses or inaction. You have failed exceedingly in your job, not once, but many times. We are fed up with your lies and concerned for our constitution. We will fully prosecute all traitors to the fullest extent of the law and that time is coming fast.

This is your final warning, listen to us or get out of the way. Heed our demands our be punished to the fullest extent of the law. We are not asking but telling you, give us a peaceful resolve and heed our calls. Otherwise, we will be left with no other choice, but to make you jobless and take matters in to our own hands.

"We The People"
Demand that you abide by every word of our constitution.
We demand that you stop the socialization of America.
We demand that you destroy every plan for a one-world government.
We demand that you shred every law that restricts or infringes upon our amendments.
We demand that you abolish unconstitutional portions of the "Patriot Act"
We demand that you relinquish Obamas presidency or show us his birth certificate.
We demand that you abolish the federal reserve and take back our monetary system.
We demand that you better the security of our borders.
We demand that you make our national language "New American English"
We demand that you make us all Americans.
(No African American, Latin American, etc. We are all simply Americans)
We demand that you better the system for our veterans and our soldiers.
We demand that you better your relations with Israel.
We demand that you sever ties with Iran, and strip their nuclear powers away.
We demand that you abide by these or face the consequences.

This is not a joke; these are not polite suggestions. This is no longer a play for a good show on tv and radio. We are stopping you from destroying our nation. Meet these demands or you will have the biggest REVELUTION this world has ever seen.

Sincerely,

"We The People"

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We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness...
-Declaration of Independence

So effective immediately:
I hereby withdraw my consent to be governed, on the grounds of unconstitutional actions by the government. And violations of my civil and natural rights by the government.

And also, Effective immediately:
hereby withdraw my consent to be governed by President Obama and his administration. On the grounds of the unconstitutional actions that these individuals have displayed on behalf of the people of this great Nation. They have violated my civil and natural rights, which the Constitution of The United States of America has endowed me with as a natural born citizen of this country, through said destructive actions, thereby leaving me with no other choice but to begin the process of organizing with other Countrymen/Patriots to once again secure those endowed unalienable rights which are inclusive but not limited to Life... Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.
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“If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquillity of servitude than the animating contest of freedom, — go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you,... and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen!”
--Samuel Adams

Signed,

JERED GAVIN BONNEAU November 8th, 2009

I'm starting to get a feeling that Al Qaeda may have resolved to get more active. In the last week, we've had the underwear bomber, the raid on the CIA camp in Afghanistan, and now an assassin broke into the house of Kurt Westergaard, the cartoonist who did the Mohammed cartoons.

I'm not sure of it. Any one of them might have happened at any time. Still, I think it worth a mention here.

Originally Posted by wtrg8

I am already considering designing beach-front condos in Arizona. Washington DC area already has snake fish population in the Potomac and whatever other crazy species you can find in the water system. Time to go helicopter hunting of alligator's and Python's in the Everglades.

I have a feeling we're going to end up adapting to whatever happens, and calling it good. There isn't, and I don't believe there will be, the political will to do anything draconian about global warming unless it's proven beyond a doubt to virtually everyone that not only is it happening, but that it's primarily caused by human activity. That isn't likely to happen during this 4T... particularly if the Crisis turns out to have started with 9/11.

Possible adaptations:

1) New professions of alligator and python trappers. Alligator is quite tasty (well, croc is... alli is probably similar). And the skins of both reptiles can be harvested and tanned to make awesomely stylish shoes and belts. Cincinnati could become a boomtown!

2) Dont' know what the hell a "snakefish" is... not sure I even want to know. But we could learn how to catch them too... and if humans are too squeamish about eating them, there's always the cat food industry. And if the kitties won't bite... turn 'em into fertilizer. Speaking of which...

3) Canada and America merge, forming the United States of America and Canada. Much of the present Great Plains and Midwest population moves to the former provinces, taking their agriculture with them. To beef up the thinner Canadian soils, topsoil from the current Midwest is removed and trucked up there, creating another new line of work: topsoil miner. Growing season differences will be offset by the construction of huge greenhouses.

Originally Posted by Bob Butler 54

I'm starting to get a feeling that Al Qaeda may have resolved to get more active. In the last week, we've had the underwear bomber, the raid on the CIA camp in Afghanistan, and now an assassin broke into the house of Kurt Westergaard, the cartoonist who did the Mohammed cartoons.

I'm not sure of it. Any one of them might have happened at any time. Still, I think it worth a mention here.

My theory about Bin Laden is that he wants the US deeply engaged in the region--it's a big fund-raiser and recruiter for him. Of course, Obama has already given him a bigger US presence in Afghanistan for Christmas, but another attack on the US would clinch it for him.