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Thread: The Spiral of Violence - Page 22







Post#526 at 03-22-2010 05:18 PM by Chas'88 [at In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky joined Nov 2008 #posts 9,432]
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Quote Originally Posted by James50 View Post
Bravely spoken.

You have no idea the forces you would unleash if you go down a violent path.

I hope all the people who think HCR is worth killing someone over will meet somewhere out in the desert and get rid of each other. Leave me and mine out of it.

James50
I wasn't supporting that violence should happen, I'm just surprised that people haven't turned to it.

But then again some townies last night started driving around my campus (which is well known for being a tad liberal leaning in terms of students--except when it comes to the rich kid conservatives, but I digress) and the townies were driving around in a pick up truck--with a folding chair in the bed of the pick-up yelling insults to every college student that they passed and throwing garbage at them. They even drove through the campus on the sidewalks--something no one's supposed to do. And of course after doing this for a couple of laps they split as fast as they came when the campus police showed up.

I know it's nothing, but after walking outside last night & having something like that happen I sorta was expecting to hear how some Tea Party people this morning were going to knock down some statue somewhere or something.

The mood is getting tenser by the moment & I definitely think its more ACW-esque than GD era kind of tense.

~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."







Post#527 at 03-22-2010 05:27 PM by Xer H [at Chicago and Indiana joined Dec 2009 #posts 1,212]
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They broke out some windows in New York, Chas... does that work for you?







Post#528 at 03-22-2010 05:38 PM by Chas'88 [at In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky joined Nov 2008 #posts 9,432]
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Quote Originally Posted by Xer H View Post
They broke out some windows in New York, Chas... does that work for you?
I'm not "seeking" it, I'm just surprised that things haven't gotten worse. But then again after November... oh I don't have a good vibes about what's going on past November.

~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."







Post#529 at 03-22-2010 05:47 PM by Xer H [at Chicago and Indiana joined Dec 2009 #posts 1,212]
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Quote Originally Posted by Chas'88 View Post
I'm not "seeking" it, I'm just surprised that things haven't gotten worse. But then again after November... oh I don't have a good vibes about what's going on past November. ~Chas'88
Oh, I know... there's a lot bubbling under the surface. I think the Tea Party's actions in the past few days have had a chilling effect on many. But it's there, it's seething and it'll come out sooner or later. The discussion is increasingly angry and hopeless, all at once. I just hope nothing happens while Obama is on this road trip.







Post#530 at 03-22-2010 06:04 PM by Chas'88 [at In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky joined Nov 2008 #posts 9,432]
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Quote Originally Posted by Xer H View Post
Oh, I know... there's a lot bubbling under the surface. I think the Tea Party's actions in the past few days have had a chilling effect on many. But it's there, it's seething and it'll come out sooner or later. The discussion is increasingly angry and hopeless, all at once. I just hope nothing happens while Obama is on this road trip.
After he was elected some black friends of mine started worrying about when he'd be assignated, since it always seems to happen to their leaders.

~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."







Post#531 at 03-22-2010 06:13 PM by Xer H [at Chicago and Indiana joined Dec 2009 #posts 1,212]
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My mother said that after looking at some of the Time-like photographs of him. She said the resemblance to how Kennedy was portrayed is striking.







Post#532 at 03-22-2010 06:35 PM by K-I-A 67 [at joined Jan 2005 #posts 3,010]
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Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Horner View Post
First off, you're linking to the same poll I did -- that was released a mere 5 hours ago.

Second of all, even if you use full margin of error those who support as much or more reform would still have a 49-46 advantage. In other words, even if the poll was as far off as can be expected, the opinion advantage is on the pro-reform side. I know you would like to think that 49% makes it "less than a majority" but you're neglecting the notable 5% "no opinion" response. It is completely unclear whether the "no opinion" types are pro-reform, anti-reform, uninformed, or simply think the legislation will have no real effect. What we do know is that people who oppose it because it goes too far constitute at most 46% of the public, which is less than the 49% who clearly disagree.

(The above does not constitute an "opinion" unless you're going to call the ability to properly read the results of a poll an "opinion.")
What it is now doesn't matter, what it is in November is what matters. As the details of the bill come out, as people learn more as far as the impacts as concerned, I expect the numbers opposed to the bill to raise.







Post#533 at 03-22-2010 06:46 PM by Brian Rush [at California joined Jul 2001 #posts 12,392]
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Quote Originally Posted by K-I-A 67 View Post
What it is now doesn't matter, what it is in November is what matters. As the details of the bill come out, as people learn more as far as the impacts as concerned, I expect the numbers opposed to the bill to raise.
What do you suppose the impacts of the bill will be?
"And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, slouches toward Bethlehem to be born?"

My blog: https://brianrushwriter.wordpress.com/

The Order Master (volume one of Refuge), a science fantasy. Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GZZWEAS
Smashwords link: https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/382903







Post#534 at 03-22-2010 06:58 PM by Child of Socrates [at Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort joined Sep 2001 #posts 14,092]
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Quote Originally Posted by K-I-A 67 View Post
Is your congress better or has it prooven itself to be worse. To their credit, the GOP backed down with illegal immigration reform. Did your congress back down or ignore and drive forward? If its OK by you to over ride me, it is now OK for me to move to over ride you Kiff. Thank you Kiff.
It's a cliche by now, but elections matter.

You were outnumbered this time around, just as I was outnumbered when Bush's tax cuts were enacted.







Post#535 at 03-22-2010 07:00 PM by Child of Socrates [at Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort joined Sep 2001 #posts 14,092]
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Quote Originally Posted by K-I-A 67 View Post
The individual doesn't count is BULLSHIT! You're going to learn in November how much the individual matters and factors in.
It's going to take a collective effort to do so.







Post#536 at 03-22-2010 07:03 PM by Child of Socrates [at Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort joined Sep 2001 #posts 14,092]
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Quote Originally Posted by K-I-A 67 View Post
As I recall, MISSION ACCOMPLISHED didn't work out so good for Bush.
Obama knows this is only the beginning. He got the most that he could given the make-up of this Congress.

It's more like "Mission Started."







Post#537 at 03-22-2010 07:20 PM by Child of Socrates [at Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort joined Sep 2001 #posts 14,092]
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Quote Originally Posted by Xer H View Post
Look, let's at least use RECENT data; the same poll, conducted March 19-21, 2010, shows that 43% opposed it, while 39% favored and 13% said it wasn't liberal enough. 39+13=52%, but with a margin of error of ±3, it can be considered a wash.

But you will believe what you want to believe, so carry on.
I think we should keep in mind that this poll was conducted at the climax of the health care debate. Emotions have been running high, and so has the level of ignorance about what the bill actually does.

I don't think the bill goes far enough. Depending on how the question was asked, I might have come out as an opponent myself (even though right now I am thrilled that the thing did pass).

I think that support for the legislation will grow over time. I would think that the issue would be polled again in a few months once all the furor has died down.







Post#538 at 03-22-2010 07:31 PM by K-I-A 67 [at joined Jan 2005 #posts 3,010]
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Quote Originally Posted by Child of Socrates View Post
It's a cliche by now, but elections matter.

You were outnumbered this time around, just as I was outnumbered when Bush's tax cuts were enacted.
Kiff, the Bush tax cuts benefitted everyone. Obama's benefitted 95% of everyone other than the top 5%. I would have agree with you on the top 5%. But, at the time fair was OK with me. I don't hate the rich like lefties. You see, the richman has never held back or held me down.







Post#539 at 03-22-2010 07:39 PM by Child of Socrates [at Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort joined Sep 2001 #posts 14,092]
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Quote Originally Posted by K-I-A 67 View Post
Kiff, the Bush tax cuts benefitted everyone. Obama's benefitted 95% of everyone other than the top 5%. I would have agree with you on the top 5%. But, at the time fair was OK with me. I don't hate the rich like lefties. You see, the richman has never held back or held me down.
I didn't need a tax cut at the time, and neither did the rich.

Tax cuts and tax credits (had they been done at all) should only have gone to the lower middle class and working poor.

We also should have done a better job at protecting the Social Security Trust Fund and keeping deficits more under control while we still had the chance to do so.

This isn't about what would have helped me personally at the time. This was about long-term benefit for the country.







Post#540 at 03-22-2010 07:51 PM by K-I-A 67 [at joined Jan 2005 #posts 3,010]
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Quote Originally Posted by Child of Socrates View Post
Obama knows this is only the beginning. He got the most that he could given the make-up of this Congress.

It's more like "Mission Started."
I'm fairly familiar with the lefts agenda. I watch Beck from time to time. Words spoken from leftwing mouths is believable. If blue America wants to walk the road of Europe, I say let you walk the road of Europe. I say to the blue Americans, let American continue forward on its chosen path. Dragging us along isn't going to work. The choices are: Live and let live or live and let die.

My grandma once told me, your ancestors left Europe for a damn good reason, don't listen to idiots wo say its better than America. Wise words spoken to a grandson from a wise old highly respected woman.







Post#541 at 03-22-2010 07:56 PM by K-I-A 67 [at joined Jan 2005 #posts 3,010]
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Quote Originally Posted by Child of Socrates View Post
I didn't need a tax cut at the time, and neither did the rich.

Tax cuts and tax credits (had they been done at all) should only have gone to the lower middle class and working poor.

We also should have done a better job at protecting the Social Security Trust Fund and keeping deficits more under control while we still had the chance to do so.

This isn't about what would have helped me personally at the time. This was about long-term benefit for the country.
I voted for Ross Perot. Nuff said.







Post#542 at 03-22-2010 08:01 PM by Chas'88 [at In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky joined Nov 2008 #posts 9,432]
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Quote Originally Posted by K-I-A 67 View Post
I'm fairly familiar with the lefts agenda. I watch Beck from time to time. Words spoken from leftwing mouths is believable. If blue America wants to walk the road of Europe, I say let you walk the road of Europe. I say to the blue Americans, let American continue forward on its chosen path. Dragging us along isn't going to work. The choices are: Live and let live or live and let die.

My grandma once told me, your ancestors left Europe for a damn good reason, don't listen to idiots wo say its better than America. Wise words spoken to a grandson from a wise old highly respected woman.
Unless your ancestors immigrated in the 19th Century--and even then the patterns didn't change that much--I'd have to say that the majority of them were banished on pan of death, run out on a "rail", debtors who couldn't pay their debt, other prisoners, or religious fanatics.

Being sent to the Americas by Old Europe until the 19th Century was considered the equivalent to a death sentence. It was only in the 19th Century that America became more of a positive place to go, and that was only after the Civil War.

Oh, and yes my ancestry stretches back to before the founding of the nation. One of my ancestors surveyed the land for William Penn--Jan Pfannebecker (John Pennypacker). Not that I'm implying yours doesn't. Because quite frankly I don't know, nor do I want to get in a pissing contest about it. All I know is that the majority of my ancestors immigrated due to the 30 Years War persecuting and killing them for their religious beliefs. They thought it would better to take a chance in the newly founded & religiously tolerant Pennsylvania than to continue living in war-infested Rhineland Germany.

~Chas'88
Last edited by Chas'88; 03-22-2010 at 08:07 PM.
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."







Post#543 at 03-22-2010 08:42 PM by K-I-A 67 [at joined Jan 2005 #posts 3,010]
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Quote Originally Posted by Chas'88 View Post
All I know is that the majority of my ancestors immigrated due to the 30 Years War persecuting and killing them for their religious beliefs. They thought it would better to take a chance in the newly founded & religiously tolerant Pennsylvania than to continue living in war-infested Rhineland Germany.

~Chas'88
Ditto. Except it was the minorty of my ancesters. Post Civil War. The Austrians renegged on a social contract and the Bohemians lost their freedom. BYE BYE EUROPE HELLO AMERICA.







Post#544 at 03-22-2010 08:51 PM by SaintStephen74 [at Eugene, OR joined Dec 2007 #posts 125]
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Quote Originally Posted by Brian Rush View Post
At some point, one loses confidence in the political process. When that happens, one either gives up, emigrates, or turns to violence. I suspect that some portion of the right may do the last of those before this is all over.
Well.... multiple choice is better than either or. Are those the only possibilities or the only possibilities that you could think of in 4 seconds? This is the problem that I see on this forum again and again and again: Lack of imagination= things must be like X.
The Power of the imagination is being realized. Being realized is the power of the imagination.







Post#545 at 03-22-2010 08:54 PM by SaintStephen74 [at Eugene, OR joined Dec 2007 #posts 125]
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Quote Originally Posted by K-I-A 67 View Post
I assure you the anger you see is not fear induced, it is pure anger.

I am sure that Wes knows that you are assured of that.
The Power of the imagination is being realized. Being realized is the power of the imagination.







Post#546 at 03-22-2010 09:05 PM by wtrg8 [at NoVA joined Dec 2008 #posts 1,262]
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Quote Originally Posted by Chas'88 View Post
Unless your ancestors immigrated in the 19th Century--and even then the patterns didn't change that much--I'd have to say that the majority of them were banished on pan of death, run out on a "rail", debtors who couldn't pay their debt, other prisoners, or religious fanatics.

Being sent to the Americas by Old Europe until the 19th Century was considered the equivalent to a death sentence. It was only in the 19th Century that America became more of a positive place to go, and that was only after the Civil War.

Oh, and yes my ancestry stretches back to before the founding of the nation. One of my ancestors surveyed the land for William Penn--Jan Pfannebecker (John Pennypacker). Not that I'm implying yours doesn't. Because quite frankly I don't know, nor do I want to get in a pissing contest about it. All I know is that the majority of my ancestors immigrated due to the 30 Years War persecuting and killing them for their religious beliefs. They thought it would better to take a chance in the newly founded & religiously tolerant Pennsylvania than to continue living in war-infested Rhineland Germany.

~Chas'88

My father's side, economic reasons and importing wine from France in the South.

My Mother's side; Potato Famine and some unproven gathering with a crowd against the English.







Post#547 at 03-22-2010 09:08 PM by KaiserD2 [at David Kaiser '47 joined Jul 2001 #posts 5,220]
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KIA and Xer H, when George Bush was in he didn't care diddly squat about what me or anyone like me thought. Obama by comparison has been a model of bipartisanship. When you trumpet the polls, you are trumpeting the partial success of your own side's incredible propaganda campaign--which, as the data shows, hasn't even persuaded the majority that it's a bad bill. I am perfectly willing to see what happens in the fall.

The hatred of Europe is being fanned by people who have never been there. This is all so ironic because the Europeans learned democracy from us in the civil war era and learned (and expanded) the welfare state from us in the New Deal era. The public services of France, Germany, and even Spain put us to shame, and they have just as good a life with much less energy use. Engineers, who ran the US until about thirty years ago when MBAs and lawyers took over, still run those countries. It makes a huge difference. But now you can't turn on Fox without hearing that they are the anti-Christ.

Many of my military colleagues/students have lived in Europe and I haven't met one that didn't love it. The only reason the military is so anti-French is that de Gaulle kicked NATO out of France.

I'll be quite happy to see what happens in the fall, you two. I don't think you'll get the Congress back.







Post#548 at 03-22-2010 09:09 PM by SaintStephen74 [at Eugene, OR joined Dec 2007 #posts 125]
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Quote Originally Posted by Brian Rush View Post
Yes. That's also what the polls say. A clear majority in this country wanted systemic health-care reform. That a majority disapproved of the specific bill before Congress was a poll-generated illusion created by combining those who disapproved because the bill doesn't go far enough (most commonly, because it lacks a public option), with those who don't want HCR at all.

It's not proper to combine those two sets of people. It paints a false picture of health care reform itself being unpopular. It's not. It's a winning issue for the Democrats this fall, not a losing one.
I'd just like to say that I want a systemic health care reform. I don't approve of the bill, but not because it doesn't go far enough. Did the poll generated me as an illusion?
The Power of the imagination is being realized. Being realized is the power of the imagination.







Post#549 at 03-22-2010 09:11 PM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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Quote Originally Posted by K-I-A 67 View Post
Do you want or prefer anarchy instead? What's government without the respect of it's citizens? It's simply becomes a collection of n-----s, f-----ts or whatever disrespectful term gets added on or directly applied to it. BTW, the government who does not show, acknowlege or extends respect for its citizens, deserve whatever disrespectful comments and terms gets heaped on it or directed at it.
Maybe we need to develop the attitude that we are in the same ship headed through the same stream of icebergs, and that if the ship goes down we all go down together. The least of our problems is that the captain is neither straight, white, nor Christian.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#550 at 03-22-2010 09:20 PM by Chas'88 [at In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky joined Nov 2008 #posts 9,432]
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Quote Originally Posted by wtrg8 View Post
My father's side, economic reasons and importing wine from France in the South.

My Mother's side; Potato Famine and some unproven gathering with a crowd against the English.
My paternal Grandfather - Post Civil War (1866)

My paternal Grandmother - With William Penn, 30 Years War

My maternal Grandfather - With William Penn, 30 Years War

My maternal Grandmother - With William Penn, Quakers

So all except for my last name, the majority of my ancestors came over when William Penn was still alive & advertising the colony.

~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."
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