Originally Posted by James50

Bravely spoken.

You have no idea the forces you would unleash if you go down a violent path.

I hope all the people who think HCR is worth killing someone over will meet somewhere out in the desert and get rid of each other. Leave me and mine out of it.

James50

I wasn't supporting that violence should happen, I'm just surprised that people haven't turned to it.

But then again some townies last night started driving around my campus (which is well known for being a tad liberal leaning in terms of students--except when it comes to the rich kid conservatives, but I digress) and the townies were driving around in a pick up truck--with a folding chair in the bed of the pick-up yelling insults to every college student that they passed and throwing garbage at them. They even drove through the campus on the sidewalks--something no one's supposed to do. And of course after doing this for a couple of laps they split as fast as they came when the campus police showed up.

I know it's nothing, but after walking outside last night & having something like that happen I sorta was expecting to hear how some Tea Party people this morning were going to knock down some statue somewhere or something.

The mood is getting tenser by the moment & I definitely think its more ACW-esque than GD era kind of tense.

~Chas'88

They broke out some windows in New York, Chas... does that work for you?

Originally Posted by Xer H

They broke out some windows in New York, Chas... does that work for you?

I'm not "seeking" it, I'm just surprised that things haven't gotten worse. But then again after November... oh I don't have a good vibes about what's going on past November.

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by Chas'88

I'm not "seeking" it, I'm just surprised that things haven't gotten worse. But then again after November... oh I don't have a good vibes about what's going on past November. ~Chas'88

Oh, I know... there's a lot bubbling under the surface. I think the Tea Party's actions in the past few days have had a chilling effect on many. But it's there, it's seething and it'll come out sooner or later. The discussion is increasingly angry and hopeless, all at once. I just hope nothing happens while Obama is on this road trip.

Originally Posted by Xer H

Oh, I know... there's a lot bubbling under the surface. I think the Tea Party's actions in the past few days have had a chilling effect on many. But it's there, it's seething and it'll come out sooner or later. The discussion is increasingly angry and hopeless, all at once. I just hope nothing happens while Obama is on this road trip.

After he was elected some black friends of mine started worrying about when he'd be assignated, since it always seems to happen to their leaders.

~Chas'88

My mother said that after looking at some of the Time-like photographs of him. She said the resemblance to how Kennedy was portrayed is striking.

Originally Posted by Kurt Horner

First off, you're linking to the same poll I did -- that was released a mere 5 hours ago.

Second of all, even if you use full margin of error those who support as much or more reform would still have a 49-46 advantage. In other words, even if the poll was as far off as can be expected, the opinion advantage is on the pro-reform side. I know you would like to think that 49% makes it "less than a majority" but you're neglecting the notable 5% "no opinion" response. It is completely unclear whether the "no opinion" types are pro-reform, anti-reform, uninformed, or simply think the legislation will have no real effect. What we do know is that people who oppose it because it goes too far constitute at most 46% of the public, which is less than the 49% who clearly disagree.

(The above does not constitute an "opinion" unless you're going to call the ability to properly read the results of a poll an "opinion.")

What it is now doesn't matter, what it is in November is what matters. As the details of the bill come out, as people learn more as far as the impacts as concerned, I expect the numbers opposed to the bill to raise.

Originally Posted by K-I-A 67

What it is now doesn't matter, what it is in November is what matters. As the details of the bill come out, as people learn more as far as the impacts as concerned, I expect the numbers opposed to the bill to raise.

What do you suppose the impacts of the bill will be?

Originally Posted by K-I-A 67

Is your congress better or has it prooven itself to be worse. To their credit, the GOP backed down with illegal immigration reform. Did your congress back down or ignore and drive forward? If its OK by you to over ride me, it is now OK for me to move to over ride you Kiff. Thank you Kiff.

It's a cliche by now, but elections matter.

You were outnumbered this time around, just as I was outnumbered when Bush's tax cuts were enacted.

Originally Posted by K-I-A 67

The individual doesn't count is BULLSHIT! You're going to learn in November how much the individual matters and factors in.

It's going to take a collective effort to do so.

Originally Posted by K-I-A 67

As I recall, MISSION ACCOMPLISHED didn't work out so good for Bush.

Obama knows this is only the beginning. He got the most that he could given the make-up of this Congress.

It's more like "Mission Started."

Originally Posted by Xer H

Look, let's at least use RECENT data; the same poll, conducted March 19-21, 2010, shows that 43% opposed it, while 39% favored and 13% said it wasn't liberal enough. 39+13=52%, but with a margin of error of ±3, it can be considered a wash.

But you will believe what you want to believe, so carry on.

I think we should keep in mind that this poll was conducted at the climax of the health care debate. Emotions have been running high, and so has the level of ignorance about what the bill actually does.

I don't think the bill goes far enough. Depending on how the question was asked, I might have come out as an opponent myself (even though right now I am thrilled that the thing did pass).

I think that support for the legislation will grow over time. I would think that the issue would be polled again in a few months once all the furor has died down.

Originally Posted by Child of Socrates

It's a cliche by now, but elections matter.

You were outnumbered this time around, just as I was outnumbered when Bush's tax cuts were enacted.

Kiff, the Bush tax cuts benefitted everyone. Obama's benefitted 95% of everyone other than the top 5%. I would have agree with you on the top 5%. But, at the time fair was OK with me. I don't hate the rich like lefties. You see, the richman has never held back or held me down.

Originally Posted by K-I-A 67

Kiff, the Bush tax cuts benefitted everyone. Obama's benefitted 95% of everyone other than the top 5%. I would have agree with you on the top 5%. But, at the time fair was OK with me. I don't hate the rich like lefties. You see, the richman has never held back or held me down.

I didn't need a tax cut at the time, and neither did the rich.

Tax cuts and tax credits (had they been done at all) should only have gone to the lower middle class and working poor.

We also should have done a better job at protecting the Social Security Trust Fund and keeping deficits more under control while we still had the chance to do so.

This isn't about what would have helped me personally at the time. This was about long-term benefit for the country.

Originally Posted by Child of Socrates

Obama knows this is only the beginning. He got the most that he could given the make-up of this Congress.

It's more like "Mission Started."

I'm fairly familiar with the lefts agenda. I watch Beck from time to time. Words spoken from leftwing mouths is believable. If blue America wants to walk the road of Europe, I say let you walk the road of Europe. I say to the blue Americans, let American continue forward on its chosen path. Dragging us along isn't going to work. The choices are: Live and let live or live and let die.

My grandma once told me, your ancestors left Europe for a damn good reason, don't listen to idiots wo say its better than America. Wise words spoken to a grandson from a wise old highly respected woman.

Originally Posted by Child of Socrates

I didn't need a tax cut at the time, and neither did the rich.

Tax cuts and tax credits (had they been done at all) should only have gone to the lower middle class and working poor.

We also should have done a better job at protecting the Social Security Trust Fund and keeping deficits more under control while we still had the chance to do so.

This isn't about what would have helped me personally at the time. This was about long-term benefit for the country.

I voted for Ross Perot. Nuff said.

Originally Posted by K-I-A 67

I'm fairly familiar with the lefts agenda. I watch Beck from time to time. Words spoken from leftwing mouths is believable. If blue America wants to walk the road of Europe, I say let you walk the road of Europe. I say to the blue Americans, let American continue forward on its chosen path. Dragging us along isn't going to work. The choices are: Live and let live or live and let die.

My grandma once told me, your ancestors left Europe for a damn good reason, don't listen to idiots wo say its better than America. Wise words spoken to a grandson from a wise old highly respected woman.

Unless your ancestors immigrated in the 19th Century--and even then the patterns didn't change that much--I'd have to say that the majority of them were banished on pan of death, run out on a "rail", debtors who couldn't pay their debt, other prisoners, or religious fanatics.

Being sent to the Americas by Old Europe until the 19th Century was considered the equivalent to a death sentence. It was only in the 19th Century that America became more of a positive place to go, and that was only after the Civil War.

Oh, and yes my ancestry stretches back to before the founding of the nation. One of my ancestors surveyed the land for William Penn--Jan Pfannebecker (John Pennypacker). Not that I'm implying yours doesn't. Because quite frankly I don't know, nor do I want to get in a pissing contest about it. All I know is that the majority of my ancestors immigrated due to the 30 Years War persecuting and killing them for their religious beliefs. They thought it would better to take a chance in the newly founded & religiously tolerant Pennsylvania than to continue living in war-infested Rhineland Germany.

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by Chas'88

All I know is that the majority of my ancestors immigrated due to the 30 Years War persecuting and killing them for their religious beliefs. They thought it would better to take a chance in the newly founded & religiously tolerant Pennsylvania than to continue living in war-infested Rhineland Germany.

~Chas'88

Ditto. Except it was the minorty of my ancesters. Post Civil War. The Austrians renegged on a social contract and the Bohemians lost their freedom. BYE BYE EUROPE HELLO AMERICA.

Originally Posted by Brian Rush

At some point, one loses confidence in the political process. When that happens, one either gives up, emigrates, or turns to violence. I suspect that some portion of the right may do the last of those before this is all over.

Well.... multiple choice is better than either or. Are those the only possibilities or the only possibilities that you could think of in 4 seconds? This is the problem that I see on this forum again and again and again: Lack of imagination= things must be like X.

Originally Posted by K-I-A 67

I assure you the anger you see is not fear induced, it is pure anger.

I am sure that Wes knows that you are assured of that.

Originally Posted by Chas'88

Unless your ancestors immigrated in the 19th Century--and even then the patterns didn't change that much--I'd have to say that the majority of them were banished on pan of death, run out on a "rail", debtors who couldn't pay their debt, other prisoners, or religious fanatics.

Being sent to the Americas by Old Europe until the 19th Century was considered the equivalent to a death sentence. It was only in the 19th Century that America became more of a positive place to go, and that was only after the Civil War.

Oh, and yes my ancestry stretches back to before the founding of the nation. One of my ancestors surveyed the land for William Penn--Jan Pfannebecker (John Pennypacker). Not that I'm implying yours doesn't. Because quite frankly I don't know, nor do I want to get in a pissing contest about it. All I know is that the majority of my ancestors immigrated due to the 30 Years War persecuting and killing them for their religious beliefs. They thought it would better to take a chance in the newly founded & religiously tolerant Pennsylvania than to continue living in war-infested Rhineland Germany.

~Chas'88

My father's side, economic reasons and importing wine from France in the South.

My Mother's side; Potato Famine and some unproven gathering with a crowd against the English.

KIA and Xer H, when George Bush was in he didn't care diddly squat about what me or anyone like me thought. Obama by comparison has been a model of bipartisanship. When you trumpet the polls, you are trumpeting the partial success of your own side's incredible propaganda campaign--which, as the data shows, hasn't even persuaded the majority that it's a bad bill. I am perfectly willing to see what happens in the fall.

The hatred of Europe is being fanned by people who have never been there. This is all so ironic because the Europeans learned democracy from us in the civil war era and learned (and expanded) the welfare state from us in the New Deal era. The public services of France, Germany, and even Spain put us to shame, and they have just as good a life with much less energy use. Engineers, who ran the US until about thirty years ago when MBAs and lawyers took over, still run those countries. It makes a huge difference. But now you can't turn on Fox without hearing that they are the anti-Christ.

Many of my military colleagues/students have lived in Europe and I haven't met one that didn't love it. The only reason the military is so anti-French is that de Gaulle kicked NATO out of France.

I'll be quite happy to see what happens in the fall, you two. I don't think you'll get the Congress back.

Originally Posted by Brian Rush

Yes. That's also what the polls say. A clear majority in this country wanted systemic health-care reform. That a majority disapproved of the specific bill before Congress was a poll-generated illusion created by combining those who disapproved because the bill doesn't go far enough (most commonly, because it lacks a public option), with those who don't want HCR at all.

It's not proper to combine those two sets of people. It paints a false picture of health care reform itself being unpopular. It's not. It's a winning issue for the Democrats this fall, not a losing one.

I'd just like to say that I want a systemic health care reform. I don't approve of the bill, but not because it doesn't go far enough. Did the poll generated me as an illusion?

Originally Posted by K-I-A 67

Do you want or prefer anarchy instead? What's government without the respect of it's citizens? It's simply becomes a collection of n-----s, f-----ts or whatever disrespectful term gets added on or directly applied to it. BTW, the government who does not show, acknowlege or extends respect for its citizens, deserve whatever disrespectful comments and terms gets heaped on it or directed at it.

Maybe we need to develop the attitude that we are in the same ship headed through the same stream of icebergs, and that if the ship goes down we all go down together. The least of our problems is that the captain is neither straight, white, nor Christian.

Originally Posted by wtrg8

My father's side, economic reasons and importing wine from France in the South.

My Mother's side; Potato Famine and some unproven gathering with a crowd against the English.

My paternal Grandfather - Post Civil War (1866)

My paternal Grandmother - With William Penn, 30 Years War

My maternal Grandfather - With William Penn, 30 Years War

My maternal Grandmother - With William Penn, Quakers

So all except for my last name, the majority of my ancestors came over when William Penn was still alive & advertising the colony.

~Chas'88