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Thread: The Spiral of Violence - Page 34







Post#826 at 03-30-2010 10:15 PM by Bob Butler 54 [at Cove Hold, Carver, MA joined Jul 2001 #posts 6,431]
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Cool Just to be clear...

I am not a jelly donut.







Post#827 at 03-30-2010 10:26 PM by Xer H [at Chicago and Indiana joined Dec 2009 #posts 1,212]
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Quote Originally Posted by Andy '85 View Post
為甚麼你們一定要講白人的話?

中文比你們的好!
Xie Xie!







Post#828 at 03-30-2010 10:55 PM by Ragnarök_62 [at Oklahoma joined Nov 2006 #posts 5,511]
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Yup... English please...

Quote Originally Posted by The Grey Badger View Post
Alas, let us hope the end result is not -

Das eargeschplittenloundenboomerundlargenholeingrundun dalleskaput!

I know a bit of Swedish and use it sparingly. The tangent to German goes to "Forstor icke" ("I don't understand"). Yes, let's go back to English please.
NB. I'm "Pennsylvania Dutch" (German) on dad's side , but I don't know the lingo...
MBTI step II type : Expressive INTP

There's an annual contest at Bond University, Australia, calling for the most appropriate definition of a contemporary term:
The winning student wrote:

"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a piece of shit by the clean end."







Post#829 at 03-30-2010 11:56 PM by Chas'88 [at In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky joined Nov 2008 #posts 9,432]
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¿Qué monstruo he lanzado?

Diese ist verrückt und geisteskrank!

Okay, now can we talk in English again?

And yes, Chinese deserves a nod as well. Since we're speaking of languages, apparently Ireland is determined to revive Gaelic and is teaching it in the schools as the official language of Ireland.

(Chas glares & growls at the person who'll respond to this post in Gaelic)

~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."







Post#830 at 03-31-2010 12:23 AM by annla899 [at joined Sep 2008 #posts 2,860]
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It is wonderful that a topic entitled "The Spiral of Violence" has ended up in multiple languages.

AnnH







Post#831 at 03-31-2010 08:40 AM by Earl and Mooch [at Delaware - we pave paradise and put up parking lots joined Sep 2002 #posts 2,106]
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Quote Originally Posted by annla899 View Post
It is wonderful that a topic entitled "The Spiral of Violence" has ended up in multiple languages.

AnnH
Certamente.
"My generation, we were the generation that was going to change the world: somehow we were going to make it a little less lonely, a little less hungry, a little more just place. But it seems that when that promise slipped through our hands we didn´t replace it with nothing but lost faith."

Bruce Springsteen, 1987
http://brucebase.wikispaces.com/1987...+YORK+CITY,+NY







Post#832 at 03-31-2010 08:52 AM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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Hablo un poco Español.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#833 at 03-31-2010 01:04 PM by The Grey Badger [at Albuquerque, NM joined Sep 2001 #posts 8,876]
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Halig eostremonath, alle!

Yes, this IS English!
How to spot a shill, by John Michael Greer: "What you watch for is (a) a brand new commenter who (b) has nothing to say about the topic under discussion but (c) trots out a smoothly written opinion piece that (d) hits all the standard talking points currently being used by a specific political or corporate interest, while (e) avoiding any other points anyone else has made on that subject."

"If the shoe fits..." The Grey Badger.







Post#834 at 03-31-2010 01:40 PM by KaiserD2 [at David Kaiser '47 joined Jul 2001 #posts 5,220]
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Ich kann deutsch, franzosisch und Spanisch gelesen, aber

Je ne sais pas faire les accents en html.

Gracias para esta cambia en nuestras conversaciones.







Post#835 at 03-31-2010 01:45 PM by Brian Rush [at California joined Jul 2001 #posts 12,392]
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Quote Originally Posted by KaiserD2 View Post
Je ne sais pas faire les accents en html.
The best way is to implement the international keyboard. If you don't want to go that far, you can find keystroke version at this site:

http://www.starr.net/is/type/altnum.htm

Oh, by the way: it's "Je ne sais pas comment faire les accents en html."
"And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, slouches toward Bethlehem to be born?"

My blog: https://brianrushwriter.wordpress.com/

The Order Master (volume one of Refuge), a science fantasy. Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GZZWEAS
Smashwords link: https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/382903







Post#836 at 03-31-2010 01:51 PM by Child of Socrates [at Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort joined Sep 2001 #posts 14,092]
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Now if Justin '77 were only here to grace us with some Cyrillic script.







Post#837 at 03-31-2010 05:12 PM by James50 [at Atlanta, GA US joined Feb 2010 #posts 3,605]
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From WaPo today: "FBI sees little chance of copycat militia plots"

"There's more fizzle than fight among self-styled militias and other groups right now, they say, and little chance of a return to the organized violence that proved so deadly in the 1990s. "

More here: http://bit.ly/bUKRhw

James50
The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. - G.K. Chesterton







Post#838 at 03-31-2010 05:46 PM by SaintStephen74 [at Eugene, OR joined Dec 2007 #posts 125]
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Quote Originally Posted by annla899 View Post
It is wonderful that a topic entitled "The Spiral of Violence" has ended up in multiple languages.

AnnH
On account of all of the violence that is being exported, it only makes sense that we'd be importing other languages.
The Power of the imagination is being realized. Being realized is the power of the imagination.







Post#839 at 03-31-2010 06:01 PM by SaintStephen74 [at Eugene, OR joined Dec 2007 #posts 125]
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Quote Originally Posted by James50 View Post
From WaPo today: "FBI sees little chance of copycat militia plots"

"There's more fizzle than fight among self-styled militias and other groups right now, they say, and little chance of a return to the organized violence that proved so deadly in the 1990s. "

More here: http://bit.ly/bUKRhw

James50
Well, they should know:
FBI Agent Discovered at Center of Alleged Hutaree Conspiracy


Kurt Nimmo
March 30, 2010
Editor’s note: incorrectly identified the alleged FBI informant within the Hutaree militia. Mr. Piatek is not identified as the informant. “The real informant has been identified by insiders as the man in the back row, 2nd from the right — the one wearing the sunglasses,” an email sent today indicates. The photos is below. We apologize for the error.

The FBI had an informant inside the Hutaree group, according to The Wall Street Journal today.
“A spokesperson at the FBI’s Detroit office declined to comment on the undercover agent and any role such an agent may have had in the investigation. A spokesman at the Justice Department in Washington also declined to discuss specifics of the investigation,” the Journal reports.
It is not surprising that the FBI had penetrated the Hutaree group and an agent was apparently at the center of the alleged conspiracy. In fact, it is part of a well established pattern.
On March 20, Infowars.com reported on allegations that a federal agent acted as a provocateur in the New York synagogue bombing conspiracy case. Defense attorneys in the case argued in court that the plot was hatched and directed by a federal informant.
“They said the informant badgered the defendants until they got involved in the plot,” NBC New York reported. “They said the informant chose the targets, supplied fake bombs for the synagogues and a fake missile to shoot down planes. The motion said he also offered to pay the defendants, who attorneys alleged weren’t inclined toward any crime until the informant began recruiting them.”
“This whole operation was a foolish waste of time and money,” Terence Kindlon, a defense lawyer who represented a client in the New York synagogue case, told the Times Online. “It is almost as if the FBI cooked up the plot and found four idiots to install as defendants.”

Defendants in the New Jersey Fort Dix Army terror case painted a similar picture. “The only terrorist conspiracy was one planted and nurtured by the informant,” declared defense attorney Rocco Cip during the trial. The FBI’s role in the case was admitted by a provocateur. “The FBI informant paid to infiltrate a band of suspected terrorists in South Jersey said yesterday that he offered to organize their attack on U.S. soldiers, but only because he wanted to build trust and find out more about the group,” the Star-Ledger reported on November 11, 2008.
In Miami, the FBI case against the so-called Miami Seven came apart at the seams when it was discovered a government provocateur provided money, video cameras for conducting surveillance, cellphones, and suggested that the patsies target the Miami FBI office.
In 2009, it was discovered that supposed white supremacist and radio talk show host Hal Turner was a National Security Intelligence asset, a fact admitted by the third highest ranking FBI official in New York City. During a second trial held this year, Turner described how he was recruited in 2003 by the FBI’s Newark-based Joint Terrorism Task Force. He said he was paid “in excess of $100,000” by the FBI during his almost five years as an informant.
According to research conducted by Alexandra Natapoff of Loyola Law School in Los Angeles, the FBI maintains an army of at least 15,000 “confidential informants,” while the DEA admits to having 4,000 snitches. “But the number of informants working directly for the Feds is probably only a tiny fraction of the entire stukachi [a Russian epithet used to describe a secret police informant] population, given the uncounted masses of snitches working for state and local police agencies,” writes William Norman Grigg of the Pro Libertate blog.
The Power of the imagination is being realized. Being realized is the power of the imagination.







Post#840 at 03-31-2010 06:07 PM by Brian Rush [at California joined Jul 2001 #posts 12,392]
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Of course the FBI had an agent planted in the group. Good for them. That's their job. To read more into it than that, e.g. to suppose that the infiltrator instigated the violent plot rather than simply observing it and reporting it, is -- well, it's what I would expect from someone who has proven himself an apologist for terrorists.
"And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, slouches toward Bethlehem to be born?"

My blog: https://brianrushwriter.wordpress.com/

The Order Master (volume one of Refuge), a science fantasy. Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GZZWEAS
Smashwords link: https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/382903







Post#841 at 03-31-2010 08:28 PM by SaintStephen74 [at Eugene, OR joined Dec 2007 #posts 125]
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Quote Originally Posted by Brian Rush View Post
from someone who has proven himself an apologist for terrorists.
Well, name calling does have its advantages.
The Power of the imagination is being realized. Being realized is the power of the imagination.







Post#842 at 03-31-2010 08:45 PM by Brian Rush [at California joined Jul 2001 #posts 12,392]
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Quote Originally Posted by SaintStephen74 View Post
Well, name calling does have its advantages.
What, "terrorist"? That's not name calling, that's an observation. These guys, this particular militia, is a terrorist organization. The FBI is supposed to infiltrate terrorist organizations. In doing so, they were doing their jobs.

Look, there are only two possibilities here. Either the Hutaree came up with this plot themselves, and the FBI plant observed them doing it and reported it, resulting in the raids and arrests. OR -- and I say this without believing that it's true -- the plant was the one who talked them into the idea, they went along with it, and he reported it, resulting in the raids and arrests. Either way we have a terrorist group here. If the plant suggested something criminal, they could always have nixed it.

So the idea that a provocateur came up with the plot is a) speculation and b) irrelevant anyway. The Hutaree Militia is a terrorist group. And anyone who apologizes for them is an apologist for terrorists.

That goes as well for anyone who condones other political violence, of course, for example by saying that the politicians who are the target are the real culprits.
"And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, slouches toward Bethlehem to be born?"

My blog: https://brianrushwriter.wordpress.com/

The Order Master (volume one of Refuge), a science fantasy. Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GZZWEAS
Smashwords link: https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/382903







Post#843 at 03-31-2010 10:39 PM by SaintStephen74 [at Eugene, OR joined Dec 2007 #posts 125]
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Quote Originally Posted by Brian Rush View Post
What, "terrorist"? That's not name calling, that's an observation. These guys, this particular militia, is a terrorist organization. The FBI is supposed to infiltrate terrorist organizations. In doing so, they were doing their jobs.

Look, there are only two possibilities here. Either the Hutaree came up with this plot themselves, and the FBI plant observed them doing it and reported it, resulting in the raids and arrests. OR -- and I say this without believing that it's true -- the plant was the one who talked them into the idea, they went along with it, and he reported it, resulting in the raids and arrests. Either way we have a terrorist group here. If the plant suggested something criminal, they could always have nixed it.

So the idea that a provocateur came up with the plot is a) speculation and b) irrelevant anyway. The Hutaree Militia is a terrorist group. And anyone who apologizes for them is an apologist for terrorists.

That goes as well for anyone who condones other political violence, of course, for example by saying that the politicians who are the target are the real culprits.
Justifying the name calling also has its place. What do you mean by 'apologist'?
You seem more interested in passing judgements than in investigation.



I don't really know the case, but I would hardly guess that the target of the group was completely innocent. I'd guess that there was some kind of history between some of the members of the group and their target. I don't really know, but if so, today, unlike 10 years ago, that wouldn't be part of the MSM 'story' -which has changed drastically in its characterization of stories of this kind.

The latter of two possibilities that you mention are brought up in the article that I posted and the author is citing a precident for agents acting as provocateurs. But on that topic you choose to point out that they are 'terrorists' either way. You conviently ignored the fact that (if the latter of the two possibilities WAS true) we'd then have FBI agents talking fringe groups into making attacks. You really don't see any relevance in that?.... I find that difficult to believe but I'll explain how it is a set up & the dangers: Government agents encouraging people to attack their own government is problematic because 1) it leads to a justification for more security than would otherwise be necessary. 2)it could lead to unnecessary violence (on either side) I could go on and on here, but let me just say-just for kicks -why not use agents to deter agression? (duh!) Honestly, what is the benifit of provocation?

...You then went further by bridging the article/author to 'condones'.... Your willingness to painting things a certain light surely must be incidental.

Surely, you've heard of the milgram experiment. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
The suggestion here is that adherance to authority is a far greater problem than opposition to it.

I am curious about the motivation of these militia groups and of the tea partiers and other fringe groups. What are they trying to tell us about the culture? What are their criticisms? I think there is real value in hearing out these groups. Painting them as wackos and or calling them names isn't really helpful.

I have been helping a friend working on his dissertation on violence in Psychology. He has worked with violent offenders in and out of the prison system. When I asked him about his thoughts on the causes of violence, he said that he thinks people resort to violence when they perceive that they are being excluded socially. Will you help us get the word out?
The Power of the imagination is being realized. Being realized is the power of the imagination.







Post#844 at 04-01-2010 12:08 AM by Brian Rush [at California joined Jul 2001 #posts 12,392]
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St. Stephen, I see no purpose in continuing any discussion with you. There are some ideas, such as racism, which I won't discuss because it would be a complete waste of my time. The attempt to justify acts of political violence is another such idea.

I will say that at least you have been relatively polite. But I have better things to do than engage you any further. We're done here.
"And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, slouches toward Bethlehem to be born?"

My blog: https://brianrushwriter.wordpress.com/

The Order Master (volume one of Refuge), a science fantasy. Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GZZWEAS
Smashwords link: https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/382903







Post#845 at 04-01-2010 03:00 AM by SaintStephen74 [at Eugene, OR joined Dec 2007 #posts 125]
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Quote Originally Posted by Brian Rush View Post
St. Stephen, I see no purpose in continuing any discussion with you. There are some ideas, such as racism, which I won't discuss because it would be a complete waste of my time. The attempt to justify acts of political violence is another such idea.

I will say that at least you have been relatively polite. But I have better things to do than engage you any further. We're done here.
Thank you for you comment about my politeness. I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that I attempted to justify political violence...

Hmmmm, I have (do) advocated considering the point of view of the 'other' and attempting to include them in dialogue so as to learn what could be learned about how the individuals in the fringe group perceive that they have been harmed from the Government/status quo, etc. Surely this would be a reasonable way to curtail/undermine future violence. I think we can learn from this without it being a justification. -and yes, I think these people should be held accountable for their actions. But ignoring the conditions that led to the violence in the first place won't help stop it in the future.

I would draw a clear distinction between what I have posted and justifying violence. Accepting, understanding, making space and including another person (or group of people) as human and worthy of dignity is quite different than endorsing (some of) their (ill advised) behaviors.
The Power of the imagination is being realized. Being realized is the power of the imagination.







Post#846 at 04-01-2010 10:15 AM by Child of Socrates [at Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort joined Sep 2001 #posts 14,092]
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Quote Originally Posted by SaintStephen74 View Post
I don't really know the case, but I would hardly guess that the target of the group was completely innocent. I'd guess that there was some kind of history between some of the members of the group and their target.
Can you tell me what the target of the plot could have done in order to justify his murder in cold blood?

I don't really know, but if so, today, unlike 10 years ago, that wouldn't be part of the MSM 'story' -which has changed drastically in its characterization of stories of this kind.
The MSM has a pronounced tendency to be an establishment tool -- no matter what the establishment happens to be at the moment. More's the pity -- but that's a whole 'nuther issue.

The latter of two possibilities that you mention are brought up in the article that I posted and the author is citing a precident for agents acting as provocateurs. But on that topic you choose to point out that they are 'terrorists' either way. You conviently ignored the fact that (if the latter of the two possibilities WAS true) we'd then have FBI agents talking fringe groups into making attacks. You really don't see any relevance in that?.... I find that difficult to believe but I'll explain how it is a set up & the dangers: Government agents encouraging people to attack their own government is problematic because 1) it leads to a justification for more security than would otherwise be necessary. 2)it could lead to unnecessary violence (on either side) I could go on and on here, but let me just say-just for kicks -why not use agents to deter agression? (duh!) Honestly, what is the benifit of provocation?
It appears to me that these were defense attorney arguments, not absolutely proven facts. Defense attorneys are, of course, going to do anything possible to keep their clients from getting convicted.

Now, I'll grant that planted provocation is not beyond the realm of possibility. Still, the group could have said no. Why didn't they? Don't they share any responsibility?

Weren't Charles Manson and his followers all convicted of multiple homicides, even though he didn't actually do much of the dirty work himself?

Surely, you've heard of the milgram experiment. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
The suggestion here is that adherance to authority is a far greater problem than opposition to it.
Indeed, so why did the militia adhere to the "authority" of the agent provocateur, assuming that's what indeed happened?

I am curious about the motivation of these militia groups and of the tea partiers and other fringe groups. What are they trying to tell us about the culture? What are their criticisms? I think there is real value in hearing out these groups. Painting them as wackos and or calling them names isn't really helpful.
I don't have a problem with talking about the issues of limited government or fiscal discipline. I do have a problem with the birthers, the people who insist that Obama is a communist, a socialist, and/or a Muslim, and the racists. Trying to sort all those out among the tea partiers is a challenge.

I have been helping a friend working on his dissertation on violence in Psychology. He has worked with violent offenders in and out of the prison system. When I asked him about his thoughts on the causes of violence, he said that he thinks people resort to violence when they perceive that they are being excluded socially. Will you help us get the word out?
While I believe that some element of that may be true, there are plenty of socially excluded people who don't resort to violence, and there are plenty of powerful people who do.







Post#847 at 04-01-2010 10:24 AM by Brian Rush [at California joined Jul 2001 #posts 12,392]
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There is only one way to properly respond to a threat of violence, and it is neither with misguided sympathy nor with a respectful argument.
"And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, slouches toward Bethlehem to be born?"

My blog: https://brianrushwriter.wordpress.com/

The Order Master (volume one of Refuge), a science fantasy. Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GZZWEAS
Smashwords link: https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/382903







Post#848 at 04-01-2010 10:40 AM by Child of Socrates [at Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort joined Sep 2001 #posts 14,092]
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Quote Originally Posted by Brian Rush View Post
There is only one way to properly respond to a threat of violence, and it is neither with misguided sympathy nor with a respectful argument.
Having been threatened with, and been on the receiving end of, violence, I agree.

But right now I'm just trying to get a point across to SaintStephen.







Post#849 at 04-01-2010 12:20 PM by KaiserD2 [at David Kaiser '47 joined Jul 2001 #posts 5,220]
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Quote Originally Posted by Brian Rush View Post
The best way is to implement the international keyboard. If you don't want to go that far, you can find keystroke version at this site:

http://www.starr.net/is/type/altnum.htm

Oh, by the way: it's "Je ne sais pas comment faire les accents en html."

Either is correct, mine was more idiomatic.







Post#850 at 04-01-2010 12:24 PM by KaiserD2 [at David Kaiser '47 joined Jul 2001 #posts 5,220]
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Some of my friends may be shocked, but I think St. Stephen may have a point. I don't know the facts of this case, but it does happen that informers become provocateurs. In fact we eventually learned that Gary Thomas Rowe (I think that was his name), the FBI's main witness against the Klansmen who shot Viola Liuzzo in 1965, I believe, was at least as responsible for the murder as anyone. Juries, moreover, have been reluctant to convict when it seems that the crime would never have been planned without the informant. I am not saying he is right, I am saying, he could be.
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