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Thread: The Spiral of Violence - Page 39







Post#951 at 04-08-2010 11:55 AM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by Copperfield View Post
And yet the IRS is purchasing shotguns:

https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportun...1&cck=1&au=&ck=

While you may not believe the IRS is a target, it appears that someone in the IRS does.
That's a law enforcement requirement. I assume the IRS does at least some of their own.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#952 at 04-08-2010 12:17 PM by The Wonkette [at Arlington, VA 1956 joined Jul 2002 #posts 9,209]
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Quote Originally Posted by annla899 View Post
From what I've been hearing from those who actually have filed their taxes, many middle-class people are getting bigger refunds than they expected.
Not me. My Federal tax refund was rather piddly. My State tax refund was about average.
I want people to know that peace is possible even in this stupid day and age. Prem Rawat, June 8, 2008







Post#953 at 04-08-2010 07:33 PM by Copperfield [at joined Feb 2010 #posts 2,244]
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Quote Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon View Post
That's a law enforcement requirement. I assume the IRS does at least some of their own.
They do indeed, but usually not with shotguns. It's not just the IRS either. Several other government agencies have been requisitioning firearms and these are agencies that do not traditionally buy such things (the EPA for instance) because they aren't in that line of work. No one would bat an eye if the BATF buys a truck load of glocks.

The agencies with a bit less history of violence buying weapons is something to take notice of however.
Last edited by Copperfield; 04-08-2010 at 09:48 PM.







Post#954 at 04-08-2010 08:00 PM by wtrg8 [at NoVA joined Dec 2008 #posts 1,262]
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Quote Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62 View Post
1. See my prior post.
2. The refund amount is due to crashing wages, during the on going "great recession".
3. "I fully indend to break to myth of perpetrated by "big media" that "McWages are a "good thing". I actually heard some dumbfuck economist say on my paranets' Fox network that low wage service jobs were actually good for the USA".
4. I'd like to see that economist live off of $7.2/hr. Oh how I hat FOX....
You got that right. I am making 30% less than what I was making with a full-time job as an independent contractor. I got a nice refund myself.







Post#955 at 04-08-2010 08:17 PM by stab1969 [at Albuquerque, NM joined May 2007 #posts 532]
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Quote Originally Posted by annla899 View Post
From what I've been hearing from those who actually have filed their taxes, many middle-class people are getting bigger refunds than they expected.
In my case, that is very true! I made about 10 grand less last year than i did the year before, and actually got the biggest tax refunds I've ever got since I've been getting tax refunds! It was a very nice surprise I must say







Post#956 at 04-09-2010 03:17 AM by K-I-A 67 [at joined Jan 2005 #posts 3,010]
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Quote Originally Posted by stab1969 View Post
In my case, that is very true! I made about 10 grand less last year than i did the year before, and actually got the biggest tax refunds I've ever got since I've been getting tax refunds! It was a very nice surprise I must say
Dude, don't let the Obama's know that it pays to make less.







Post#957 at 04-09-2010 09:06 AM by KaiserD2 [at David Kaiser '47 joined Jul 2001 #posts 5,220]
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Quote Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62 View Post
1. See my prior post.
2. The refund amount is due to crashing wages, during the on going "great recession".
3. "I fully indend to break to myth of perpetrated by "big media" that "McWages are a "good thing". I actually heard some dumbfuck economist say on my paranets' Fox network that low wage service jobs were actually good for the USA".
4. I'd like to see that economist live off of $7.2/hr. Oh how I hat FOX....
I did not realize that we actually have Scrooge-type economists once again arguing that starvation wages are good for the country. I would be interested in the SOB's name. . .







Post#958 at 04-09-2010 02:46 PM by Roadbldr '59 [at Vancouver, Washington joined Jul 2001 #posts 8,275]
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Quote Originally Posted by KaiserD2 View Post
I did not realize that we actually have Scrooge-type economists once again arguing that starvation wages are good for the country. I would be interested in the SOB's name. . .
I'd be interested in knowing, Dave, the context in which this statement was made. Low-wage employment is, in fact, good for one important purpose: providing starter jobs for teenagers and very young adults, just entering the work force.

It's a truism that it is dificult to find a job without work experience, and impossible to get work experience without a job. As such, entry-level jobs provide a stepping stone for young people to advance to higher-paying careers.

I know it did for me.
"Better hurry. There's a storm coming. His storm!!!" :-O -Abigail Freemantle, "The Stand" by Stephen King







Post#959 at 04-09-2010 04:14 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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Quote Originally Posted by Roadbldr '59 View Post
I'd be interested in knowing, Dave, the context in which this statement was made. Low-wage employment is, in fact, good for one important purpose: providing starter jobs for teenagers and very young adults, just entering the work force.

It's a truism that it is dificult to find a job without work experience, and impossible to get work experience without a job. As such, entry-level jobs provide a stepping stone for young people to advance to higher-paying careers.

I know it did for me.
I find this to be an ageist attitude, everyone who works should get paid a decent "living" minimum wage no matter what age the person is. paying teens crap because they are not independent yet smacks of exploitation.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#960 at 04-09-2010 04:49 PM by Xer H [at Chicago and Indiana joined Dec 2009 #posts 1,212]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
I find this to be an ageist attitude, everyone who works should get paid a decent "living" minimum wage no matter what age the person is. paying teens crap because they are not independent yet smacks of exploitation.
I don't think Roadbldr '59 was saying that, Odin. I think he meant that you need to have lower-end jobs along with higher-end jobs. Start at the bottom and work your way up. Yes, they pay less, but he didn't say that the pay should be exploitive. Just not senior-management level.







Post#961 at 04-09-2010 06:50 PM by Roadbldr '59 [at Vancouver, Washington joined Jul 2001 #posts 8,275]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
I find this to be an ageist attitude, everyone who works should get paid a decent "living" minimum wage no matter what age the person is. paying teens crap because they are not independent yet smacks of exploitation.
I disagree... we all have to start somewhere, and if not at an entry-level job, then where? I mean, when I was in college tidying up restrooms in the student union building, do you really think my labor was worth $10/hr rather than $2.50 (in 1978 $$$)? Yet that job gave me enough experience for employers paying $5/hr to trust me with the responsibility of doing a good job for them.

While there are a few teens who are in need of a true living wage-- emancipated minors, for example-- most aren't, at least among the middle class.
Last edited by Roadbldr '59; 04-09-2010 at 06:56 PM.
"Better hurry. There's a storm coming. His storm!!!" :-O -Abigail Freemantle, "The Stand" by Stephen King







Post#962 at 04-10-2010 10:20 AM by Yorick's Skull [at New Jersey joined Apr 2010 #posts 361]
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They do need to raise minimum wage again. If your job isnt in walking distance the gas prices are a pay decrease.

Also hello everyone, It's good to finally participate in these discussions since I first read T4T in 1997. As much as you guys seem to disagree it gives us fence sitters a well rounded view of the country at large.







Post#963 at 04-10-2010 01:20 PM by The Wonkette [at Arlington, VA 1956 joined Jul 2002 #posts 9,209]
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Quote Originally Posted by Yorick's Skull View Post
They do need to raise minimum wage again. If your job isnt in walking distance the gas prices are a pay decrease.

Also hello everyone, It's good to finally participate in these discussions since I first read T4T in 1997. As much as you guys seem to disagree it gives us fence sitters a well rounded view of the country at large.
Hello to you, too.
I want people to know that peace is possible even in this stupid day and age. Prem Rawat, June 8, 2008







Post#964 at 04-10-2010 01:42 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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Quote Originally Posted by Yorick's Skull View Post
They do need to raise minimum wage again. If your job isnt in walking distance the gas prices are a pay decrease.

Also hello everyone, It's good to finally participate in these discussions since I first read T4T in 1997. As much as you guys seem to disagree it gives us fence sitters a well rounded view of the country at large.
Welcome!
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#965 at 04-10-2010 06:06 PM by Ragnarök_62 [at Oklahoma joined Nov 2006 #posts 5,511]
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Quote Originally Posted by Roadbldr '59 View Post
I'd be interested in knowing, Dave, the context in which this statement was made. Low-wage employment is, in fact, good for one important purpose: providing starter jobs for teenagers and very young adults, just entering the work force.
The context was something along the lines of "the current trend of low paying jobs, replacing higher paying jobs was an economic plus." He was defending "wage arbritage."

It's a truism that it is dificult to find a job without work experience, and impossible to get work experience without a job. As such, entry-level jobs provide a stepping stone for young people to advance to higher-paying careers.

I know it did for me.
Ditto. When I was in high school, of course I didn't expect anything but minimum wage pay. Of to go back further, most likely less than minimum wage whan I was a paper boy.

To Kaiser2d, sorry, I can't remember that guy's name. The interview on Fox just blew my mind away. Amazing, a relic from the Gilded Age.
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The winning student wrote:

"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a piece of shit by the clean end."







Post#966 at 04-10-2010 06:26 PM by Brian Rush [at California joined Jul 2001 #posts 12,392]
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The characterization of a job as "entry level" or "lower paid" is relative, not absolute. The existence of such employment is not made possible by a decline in median wages paid for all work, nor do such jobs cease to exist when median wages rise. In fact, there were more entry level jobs available back in the 1960s, when real wages were overall much higher than now, than today. Entry-level jobs back then were quite well paid compared to entry-level jobs now in constant dollars, but they were lower paid than more experienced employment then.

The argument presented is specious.
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Post#967 at 04-10-2010 08:16 PM by KaiserD2 [at David Kaiser '47 joined Jul 2001 #posts 5,220]
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I interpreted the comment as praise for the replacement of millions of industrial jobs by millions of fast food jobs. I am unable to feel any enthusiasm for that. I had students who worked as auto workers during summers in college. I doubt they could find those jobs now. (Actually, Roadbldr, the one I'm thinking of is exactly your age.)







Post#968 at 04-10-2010 09:01 PM by Child of Socrates [at Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort joined Sep 2001 #posts 14,092]
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At my first job (spring and summer of 1978), I was definitely paid "under the table" and probably less than minimum wage.

Still, it was a lot more money than I was used to having in my pocket.







Post#969 at 04-10-2010 11:57 PM by Texas Curl [at Bellaire, Texas joined Mar 2010 #posts 50]
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#1000 !!!!!!!!!!!







Post#970 at 04-11-2010 07:59 AM by James50 [at Atlanta, GA US joined Feb 2010 #posts 3,605]
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Quote Originally Posted by Roadbldr '59 View Post
I'd be interested in knowing, Dave, the context in which this statement was made. Low-wage employment is, in fact, good for one important purpose: providing starter jobs for teenagers and very young adults, just entering the work force.

It's a truism that it is dificult to find a job without work experience, and impossible to get work experience without a job. As such, entry-level jobs provide a stepping stone for young people to advance to higher-paying careers.

I know it did for me.
What do you think about no-wage jobs? ie internships. Apparently Obama is going to make a big deal about getting for-profit companies to cease offering unpaid internships. It is hypocritical not to include non-profits IMHO. If it is exploitative in both cases. And, as you can imagine, Obama's Organizing for America offered unpaid internships during his campaign and is still offering them today, and they don't even pay expenses. Interns for me but not for thee. http://bit.ly/aaBAyp

Our company always pays its interns. I have never understood how anyone could justify doing otherwise.

James50
Last edited by James50; 04-11-2010 at 08:27 AM.
The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. - G.K. Chesterton







Post#971 at 04-11-2010 12:58 PM by Roadbldr '59 [at Vancouver, Washington joined Jul 2001 #posts 8,275]
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Quote Originally Posted by James50 View Post
What do you think about no-wage jobs? ie internships. Apparently Obama is going to make a big deal about getting for-profit companies to cease offering unpaid internships. It is hypocritical not to include non-profits IMHO. If it is exploitative in both cases. And, as you can imagine, Obama's Organizing for America offered unpaid internships during his campaign and is still offering them today, and they don't even pay expenses. Interns for me but not for thee. http://bit.ly/aaBAyp

Our company always pays its interns. I have never understood how anyone could justify doing otherwise.

James50
So does our agency, and every other I've ever worked for. I was a paid intern for a public utility in Southern California in the early 80s, and the pay was, in fact, handsome. I learned a lot.

I'm not certain how I feel about no-wage internships... have never really had any experience with them, and as such not given them much thought. Taking a first stab at it, I would say that if they're for a short length of time, and teach information and skills invaluable to a student in their future career I'd say they're ok... functioning essentially the same as a college class. However I can also see where they might cross the line into exploitation, too.
"Better hurry. There's a storm coming. His storm!!!" :-O -Abigail Freemantle, "The Stand" by Stephen King







Post#972 at 04-11-2010 01:39 PM by The Wonkette [at Arlington, VA 1956 joined Jul 2002 #posts 9,209]
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Quote Originally Posted by James50 View Post
What do you think about no-wage jobs? ie internships. Apparently Obama is going to make a big deal about getting for-profit companies to cease offering unpaid internships. It is hypocritical not to include non-profits IMHO. If it is exploitative in both cases. And, as you can imagine, Obama's Organizing for America offered unpaid internships during his campaign and is still offering them today, and they don't even pay expenses. Interns for me but not for thee. http://bit.ly/aaBAyp

Our company always pays its interns. I have never understood how anyone could justify doing otherwise.

James50
I see unpaid internships as deepening class divisions. A lot of prestigious internships are unpaid, so of course the youth taking them come from advantaged families. On the other hand, nonprofits tend to be short on cash, so I can understand why they would resort to them.
I want people to know that peace is possible even in this stupid day and age. Prem Rawat, June 8, 2008







Post#973 at 04-11-2010 03:24 PM by annla899 [at joined Sep 2008 #posts 2,860]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Wonkette View Post
I see unpaid internships as deepening class divisions. A lot of prestigious internships are unpaid, so of course the youth taking them come from advantaged families. On the other hand, nonprofits tend to be short on cash, so I can understand why they would resort to them.
The other problem regarding for-profit, unpaid internships is that they've replaced entry-level positions.

Many years ago I had an unpaid internship with a nonprofit. It was during the summer and I still could work another job. Of course, there were summer jobs then.

I agree about class divisions.







Post#974 at 04-11-2010 04:03 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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Time magazine, April 12, 2010

Article about internships. Apparently mid-career people are doing unpaid work as interns. The article brings up the possibility of exploitation and mentions a Facebook group called Interns Must Be Paid.







Post#975 at 04-12-2010 08:50 AM by James50 [at Atlanta, GA US joined Feb 2010 #posts 3,605]
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http://www.crashtheteaparty.org/

It is hard to know how seriously to take this, but whoever posted this web page represents some group of people who want to infiltrate and discredit the Tea Party movement. Watch for the political theater if instigated by these provocateurs. Be very skeptical of reports about the any connection between violence and the Tea Parties.

James50
The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. - G.K. Chesterton
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