Originally Posted by Odin

Anyone else afraid that the recent disgustingly Orwellian "Immigration" bill in Arizona that has just passed is going to result in violence when some idiot racist cop starts harassing Hispanic US citizens because they assume Brown Skin = Illegal?

Cops will be stopping U-Hauls driving at high speeds thru the desert.

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

Unfortunately, the violence is already there, the border is broken and the citizens (read: voters) are livid. This may be the trigger needed to get sane action by the Feds. If not, then your analysis is correct.

What, the Feds do their in the first place. Or deny the local authorities the right to protect their citizens from illegals.

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

Unfortunately, the violence is already there, the border is broken and the citizens (read: voters) are livid. This may be the trigger needed to get sane action by the Feds. If not, then your analysis is correct.

I have trouble resisting a straight line. I'm considering what comments ought to be made about how difficult it is to parse the phrase, 'sane action by the Feds.'

And from the last 4T:

http://www.woodyguthrie.org/.../Plan..._Los_Gatos.htm

Originally Posted by Kurt Horner

So, I took the time to do a quick and dirty analysis of people leaving the Senate in recent years and use that as a proxy for the average birth year of people leaving positions of power.

I think you have just proven a theory of mine that the Senate does not reflect the leadership of the US. It members are too old and hold their seats too long. The House is more representative of the current non political leadership mix.

This is not to dishonor the respect due to these senior legislative members but they work out of a generational warp and slow down appropriate changes in laws or policies.

Several folks I know think the Senate needs term limits like the Presidency. New and younger people are needed to stay in tune with current generations.

Originally Posted by The Grey Badger

No, Odin, not afraid - absolutely certain this is going to happen. And American citizens of Hispanic descent will start carrying their official papers around with them at all times, like apartheid-era black South Africans.

There will probably also be scandals about some cop taking someone's papers and then running them in for not having them. Not to mention the entire "Born in East L.A." scenario - a very, very pre-seasonal movie.

And Hispanics of all variations of citizenship (citizen, green card, etc) will avoid the police, which will probably lead to cases of "Well, he tried to run away from me, so he had to be a criminal, so I shot him."

It will certainly lead to serious under-reporting of crime within the community, since not only the criminals, but the witnesses and complainants will be under threat of deportation, justified or not.

I suppose the upside of this is that the guy who mows your lawn will now be an English-speaking American citizen.

That is really scary.

Arizona's shameful 'immigration' bill

It is nothing short of astonishing that Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer Friday signed a bill that could make it dangerous just to look Hispanic.

That’s not the purpose of the new law, of course. As The Post reported, the law “requires authorities in Arizona to question people about their immigration status if there is reason to suspect they are in the country illegally.” The Arizona Republic notes that it “would require anyone whom police suspect of being in the country illegally to produce ‘an alien registration document,’ such as a green card or other proof of citizenship, such as a passport or Arizona driver's license.”

What does this mean in practice? Here’s what the Republic -- not by any stretch a left-wing newspaper -- said about the bill in an editorial:

The broad anti-immigrant bill passed by the Legislature this week makes it a crime to be in the country illegally and gives local cops the job of demanding documentation if they have reasonable suspicion someone lacks it.

The need to carry proper ‘papers’ falls squarely on Arizona's Latino population -- including those born and raised in the Grand Canyon State. The bill invites racial profiling and ignores the fact that Latinos are an intrinsic part of Arizona's history and its future. Arizona's senators should know that.

The bill . . . is bringing thundering bad publicity that will echo for years to come. It will lead to lost economic-development opportunities, lost tourism and lost opportunities to expand our trade and commercial ties with Mexico.

It’s rather strange that many who say they mistrust government overreach could support a law of this sort. Religious leaders, conservative as well as progressive, have been among the most powerful voices against this. The organization Faith in Public Life sent out an e-mail that included many responses from the religious community, among them was:

The Rev. Samuel Rodriguez, president of National Hispanic Christian Leadership Conference: “If you are Hispanic in Arizona, you just became a suspect and open to police harassment.”

The New Evangelical Partnership for the Common Good declared that the law would have the effect of “mandating racial profiling, criminalizing ministry to undocumented immigrants, separating immigrant families, and exacerbating a climate of fear and suspicion that pits neighbor against neighbor.” It called it a “wholly unbiblical and immoral law.”

And Gideon Aronoff, the president and CEO of the Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society, said the law means that “Arizonans are now living in a world where police may impound vehicles transporting anyone found to be an undocumented immigrant, which means that Arizonans who don’t check the papers of the kids they drive to Sunday school may now be engaging in illegal activity.”

It’s good that President Obama condemned this bill -- and very sad that Sen. John McCain, long a reasonable and humane voice on immigration but now facing a tough Republican primary, supported it.

“Obviously there is very high frustration over the issue of illegal immigration,” Joe Rubio, lead Arizona organizer for the Industrial Areas Foundation, told me shortly after Brewer signed the bill. “Nobody likes it.”

Yet the new law, he said, “gives lip service to protecting the border, but does nothing of the sort….This is just plainly anti-American, anti-humanitarian.”

There is also worry among police officers that the bill would discourage cooperation with law enforcement and take resources away from basic crime fighting. As Rubio put it, “People are not going to report crimes if they feel they’re in jeopardy.”

The law is certain to be challenged in Court and is likely to be reviewed by the Justice Department. But legitimate concern about illegal immigration should never have been translated into a law like this.

Originally Posted by The Grey Badger

No, Odin, not afraid - absolutely certain this is going to happen. And American citizens of Hispanic descent will start carrying their official papers around with them at all times, like apartheid-era black South Africans.

Not just Hispanics...If you have applied for a drivers license recently all the birth, residency documents are required to prove ones identity. Under Federal laws the drivers license will be the "national" ID card.

Originally Posted by Silent39

I think you have just proven a theory of mine that the Senate does not reflect the leadership of the US. It members are too old and hold their seats too long. The House is more representative of the current non political leadership mix.

This is not to dishonor the respect due to these senior legislative members but they work out of a generational warp and slow down appropriate changes in laws or policies.

Several folks I know think the Senate needs term limits like the Presidency. New and younger people are needed to stay in tune with current generations.

I believe there was a dialog between two of the Founders to that effect and one answered the other "Do your pour your coffee into your saucer before you drink it?"

"Why, yes!"

"Why"

"Well, to cool it."

"Just so."

Originally Posted by Silent39

I think you have just proven a theory of mine that the Senate does not reflect the leadership of the US. It members are too old and hold their seats too long. The House is more representative of the current non political leadership mix.

This is not to dishonor the respect due to these senior legislative members but they work out of a generational warp and slow down appropriate changes in laws or policies.

Several folks I know think the Senate needs term limits like the Presidency. New and younger people are needed to stay in tune with current generations.

I would prefer absolute term limits for them-no more than 12 years total in House and/or Senate.
Then send them home to live under the laws that they made.

I have been wondering for years now just how all this hatred could go over the edge. The immigration bill could well be the answer. I can imagine lots of livid Arizonans calling the cops on their Spanish-speaking neighbors--and at the rate things are going, the next step will be to deputize the NRA en masse, just the way the Nazi government did with the SA and SS. I'll be delighted to be proven wrong, but. . I'm worried.

Originally Posted by KaiserD2

I have been wondering for years now just how all this hatred could go over the edge. The immigration bill could well be the answer. I can imagine lots of livid Arizonans calling the cops on their Spanish-speaking neighbors--and at the rate things are going, the next step will be to deputize the NRA en masse, just the way the Nazi government did with the SA and SS. I'll be delighted to be proven wrong, but. . I'm worried.

I find myself in agreement with Brian again on business hiring and no control of immigration at all. I find the Federal Government doing a piss-poor job on addressing the following;

1. What is considered legal immigration? (Building a new Ellis island like most of our Ancestor's went through.)
2. Worker permits - Who and Time, what education or skills are needed outside of country that natural citizens cannot provide.
3. Destroy NAFTA and come up with a better Hemisphere trade plan.

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0425-30.htm

2 and 3 are our problems but at the same time we have done nothing in addressing the border.

With the Sensationalism we have rushed too, we have lost any common sense as shown in your statement. If you walk into Canada without papers, wouldn't you be ask to return to where you came in the States? I think so after being detained to discover where you are from. Same thing, if a person walks onto your property, wouldn't you call the police you didn't give permission from them to on be it.

Originally Posted by radind

I would prefer absolute term limits for them-no more than 12 years total in House and/or Senate.
Then send them home to live under the laws that they made.

Gen Xer's will have their own self-imposed term limits, don't worry about it.

Originally Posted by wtrg8

I find myself in agreement with Brian again on business hiring and no control of immigration at all. I find the Federal Government doing a piss-poor job on addressing the following;

1. What is considered legal immigration? (Building a new Ellis island like most of our Ancestor's went through.)
2. Worker permits - Who and Time, what education or skills are needed outside of country that natural citizens cannot provide.
3. Destroy NAFTA and come up with a better Hemisphere trade plan.

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0425-30.htm

2 and 3 are our problems but at the same time we have done nothing in addressing the border.

With the Sensationalism we have rushed too, we have lost any common sense as shown in your statement. If you walk into Canada without papers, wouldn't you be ask to return to where you came in the States? I think so after being detained to discover where you are from. Same thing, if a person walks onto your property, wouldn't you call the police you didn't give permission from them to on be it.

With regards to Ellis Island, whem my grandparents went through Ellis Island in the 1910s, there was no restriction on immigration except for health (people with TB were turned back, for example). Also, almost everyone came by boat -- the only exceptions may have been the odd Canadian settling in New England. And most boats went to New York City.

It's much more complex now. Sure, we have lots of Mexicans and Central Americans crossing the border illegally -- by land, over a 2,000 mile border with an ally of ours. A few make their way to Canada and cross that 3,000 mile border. However, a large share of unauthorized immigrants entered the US legally -- as students, visitors, tourists, and simply overstayed their visas.

Originally Posted by The Wonkette

It's much more complex now. Sure, we have lots of Mexicans and Central Americans crossing the border illegally -- by land, over a 2,000 mile border with an ally of ours. A few make their way to Canada and cross that 3,000 mile border. However, a large share of unauthorized immigrants entered the US legally -- as students, visitors, tourists, and simply overstayed their visas.

Well, show me your driver's license then? Special interests have taken that away from the states and have threatened to sue if we ask for papers.

Enough is Enough, the US know how much money I make, my routing number for my bank, know that I reside in Virginia and have a copy of my birth certificate because I needed a US Passport. I am not asking for anything I haven't provided myself. This something no one should be afraid of since as citizens we have already given up that right to not show papers.

I was against Kaine's illegal attempt to allow Illegals the right to In-State College tuitition.

Originally Posted by Odin

Anyone else afraid that the recent disgustingly Orwellian "Immigration" bill in Arizona that has just passed is going to result in violence when some idiot racist cop starts harassing Hispanic US citizens because they assume Brown Skin = Illegal?

If "Orwellian" things concern you, wait till you get a load of this.

http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2...ards-help.html

Originally Posted by Copperfield

If "Orwellian" things concern you, wait till you get a load of this.

http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2...ards-help.html

Eww.......

These people haven't read their history. Deploying the National Guard against urban riots in the 1960s was a disaster. The vast bulk of people killed were totally innocent folks shot by trigger-happy guardsmen. (I was a reservist myself, by the way, but never called up for anything.) Of course, today's guardsmen are a lot more battle-tested than they were back then.

Originally Posted by Copperfield

If "Orwellian" things concern you, wait till you get a load of this.

http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2...ards-help.html

Funny. If you live in a place, it's different. I'm not aware of anything out of the ordinary. But I live in the Loop. Many parts of the city have always had violence.

I wonder if the AZ law will become the equivalent to Japanese internment. Even though it probably won't reach that level of racial injustice, I can still see it being used to exploit people of color in the same way.
(Ex: You think Jose Rodriguez is going to get that promotion instead of you, you call the cops and get him hauled off to the clink for a couple of days even though he's a citizen, in the mean time you're promoted!)

Originally Posted by KaiserD2

These people haven't read their history. Deploying the National Guard against urban riots in the 1960s was a disaster. The vast bulk of people killed were totally innocent folks shot by trigger-happy guardsmen. (I was a reservist myself, by the way, but never called up for anything.) Of course, today's guardsmen are a lot more battle-tested than they were back then.

Well, I for one was glad that the New Jersey NG stood between my family, neighbors and seven-year-old me... and the rabid-eyed, Molotov-tossing hordes marching up Elizabeth Avenue toward Weequahic.

If there were any non-rioters who were stupid enough not to keep out of the way, and I know for a fact that no one from my neighborhood was... well, it sucked to be THEM.

Originally Posted by wtrg8

Well, show me your driver's license then? Special interests have taken that away from the states and have threatened to sue if we ask for papers.

Enough is Enough, the US know how much money I make, my routing number for my bank, know that I reside in Virginia and have a copy of my birth certificate because I needed a US Passport. I am not asking for anything I haven't provided myself. This something no one should be afraid of since as citizens we have already given up that right to not show papers.

Do you carry your official birth certificate when you travel? An out-of-state drivers license isn't sufficient for the new law. I suppose my white skin would protect me, but the idea that one has to show "your papers" to travel inside the US is troublesome.

I agree that illegal immigration is a problem. There is a simple solution, (1) grandfather in all illegal currently inside the country (2) build an effective barrier across the US-mexico border and staff it with 100,000 troops, and (3) quadruple the staffing at the immigration department to rapidly process immigration cases in accordance with current laws.

This represents a compromise between the rank and file Right (illegal immigration stops dead) and the Left (nobody gets deported) and it reforms the sick joke that is current immigration policy.

Who gets screwed is employers of illegals and so I predict Republicans would strongly oppose a compromise like this.

Originally Posted by Rose1992

I wonder if the AZ law will become the equivalent to Japanese internment. Even though it probably won't reach that level of racial injustice, I can still see it being used to exploit people of color in the same way.
(Ex: You think Jose Rodriguez is going to get that promotion instead of you, you call the cops and get him hauled off to the clink for a couple of days even though he's a citizen, in the mean time you're promoted!)

Ugh, good point, there.

Originally Posted by Mikebert

This represents a compromise between the rank and file Right (illegal immigration stops dead) and the Left (nobody gets deported) and it reforms the sick joke that is current immigration policy.

Yeah, but that requires a willingness to compromise which, in today's polarized partisan environment, means you're "weak" and you "lost" the battle with the other side. Partisan victory is more important than rational public policy in Washington these days. Consensus, compromise and seeking a middle ground are for losers, so it would seem.

Originally Posted by Bob Butler 54

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

Unfortunately, the violence is already there, the border is broken and the citizens (read: voters) are livid. This may be the trigger needed to get sane action by the Feds. If not, then your analysis is correct.

I have trouble resisting a straight line. I'm considering what comments ought to be made about how difficult it is to parse the phrase, 'sane action by the Feds.'

The problem is one of degree. Arizona is a battleground state. It will be one with the Feds in charge or not, but at least the Feds have the capacity to act in a constrained manner. I don't see that happening with the state in charge.

There are real problems here. People are dying and being kidnapped. Property losses are mounting. A backlash is almost a given. A response formulated by from former Arizona governor and current DHS head Janet Napolitano isn't a perfect option but it should fall on the rational side of tyranny. I'm not sure that's true if it's an Arizona-only decision.

Originally Posted by wtrg8

I find myself in agreement with Brian again on business hiring and no control of immigration at all. I find the Federal Government doing a piss-poor job on addressing the following;

1. What is considered legal immigration? (Building a new Ellis island like most of our Ancestor's went through.)
2. Worker permits - Who and Time, what education or skills are needed outside of country that natural citizens cannot provide.
3. Destroy NAFTA and come up with a better Hemisphere trade plan.

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0425-30.htm

2 and 3 are our problems but at the same time we have done nothing in addressing the border.

With the Sensationalism we have rushed too, we have lost any common sense as shown in your statement. If you walk into Canada without papers, wouldn't you be ask to return to where you came in the States? I think so after being detained to discover where you are from. Same thing, if a person walks onto your property, wouldn't you call the police you didn't give permission from them to on be it.

There's a rule that wealth and poverty cannot exist next to one another unless the wealthy either give away their wealth or erect barriers to keep poverty at bay. The idea behind NAFTA was to find a way to avoid the second option by using the first one ... without causing any real financial pain, of course. Instead, we got a small number of very wealth entrepreneurs who ran factories under the Maquiladora program, but the Mexican workers still got paid poorly. Poverty continued.

Now, that program has been superseded or subsumed by a drug war, which seems to be devolving into some sort of revolution. We own a large part of the fault for all of this, but lets be honest, Mexico is still an oligarchy that enriches a few at the cost of the many. Most of Latin America is similar, but we can't fix that.

If the war crosses the border, then it's Katy bar the door. Otherwise. we need to be as cool and rational as the situation will allow, and not go out of our way to make matter worse.