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Thread: The Spiral of Violence - Page 47







Post#1151 at 08-08-2010 06:25 PM by Roadbldr '59 [at Vancouver, Washington joined Jul 2001 #posts 8,275]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
That recently well known autistic savant Daniel Tammet, author of the memoir Born on a Blue Day, Learned Icelandic in a month and proved it by speaking good Icelandic on a TV news show in Iceland.
How does Icelandic differ from Norwegian?
"Better hurry. There's a storm coming. His storm!!!" :-O -Abigail Freemantle, "The Stand" by Stephen King







Post#1152 at 08-08-2010 07:18 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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Quote Originally Posted by Roadbldr '59 View Post
How does Icelandic differ from Norwegian?
It's the most conservative of all the Germanic languages, grammatically, it's almost identical to it's ancestor Old Norse in most everything except pronunciation (Icelandic has had a bunch of weird-as-fuck sound changes, like /ll/ > /tl/ and /hw/ > /kv/). The mainland Scandinavian languages, on the other hand, have shed much of their word endings (like English did) and have simplified their gender system by merging the Masculine and Feminine into a sing "Common" gender.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#1153 at 08-09-2010 01:11 PM by The Wonkette [at Arlington, VA 1956 joined Jul 2002 #posts 9,209]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
I'm majoring in Foreign Languages, BTW, with an emphasis on Spanish. I may add a Hindi emphasis, too. I am hoping to be a translator, translating text from English to Spanish. It's a good job someone with Asperger's.
Not for everyone. I'm probably somewhere on the spectrum and I can't learn a foreign language worth a d**n. My brain freezes!

Each to his own. I admire people who can do foreign languages.
Last edited by The Wonkette; 08-09-2010 at 04:26 PM.
I want people to know that peace is possible even in this stupid day and age. Prem Rawat, June 8, 2008







Post#1154 at 08-09-2010 03:32 PM by Poodle [at Doghouse joined May 2010 #posts 1,269]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Wonkette View Post
Not for everyone. I'm probably somewhere on the spectrum and I can't learn a foreign language worth a d**m. My brain freezes!

Each to his own. I admire people who can do foreign languages.
I once was fluent in French and German- three decades ago. Now, it's all gone. Schiess! Merde!







Post#1155 at 08-09-2010 03:41 PM by ziggyX65 [at Texas Hill Country joined Apr 2010 #posts 2,634]
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Quote Originally Posted by Poodle View Post
I once was fluent in French and German- three decades ago. Now, it's all gone. Schiess! Merde!
Clearly it's not *all* gone.....







Post#1156 at 08-09-2010 03:57 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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Quote Originally Posted by Poodle View Post
I once was fluent in French and German- three decades ago. Now, it's all gone. Schiess! Merde!
I bet it's not all gone. I spent close to seven years not speaking, reading, or hearing French; it only took about three hours in Paris before it all came back to me.

Similarly, my mom spoke Lithuanian as a kid (hell, so did I a little bit with my great-grandparents). Then she went like 35 years not really using it at all -- she got to the point where she had to really dig to come up with even the most basic of words. But five minutes' conversation with the lithuanian guy who came over to play for the Trailblazers was enough for it to all come back to her.

I'd say that a language that an adult speaks is never lost; it just gets stuck back in a dark, dusty corner of memory that can be hard to find at first. Kids seem to be plastic enough that they can truly forget languages (likely a flipside of their spooky ability to pick them up). But grownups aren't that way.
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc tre dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce tre dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#1157 at 08-09-2010 04:02 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
It's the most conservative of all the Germanic languages, grammatically, it's almost identical to it's ancestor Old Norse in most everything except pronunciation (Icelandic has had a bunch of weird-as-fuck sound changes, like /ll/ > /tl/ and /hw/ > /kv/). The mainland Scandinavian languages, on the other hand, have shed much of their word endings (like English did) and have simplified their gender system by merging the Masculine and Feminine into a sing "Common" gender.
If you like to play with grammar, a major marker along your road will be the Georgian language. More noun-genders than any decent people need, and buttloads of declensions for each one.

Finnish is also fun, what with their verb-construction that changes 'go' to 'make go' (as in, drive a car), then again to 'make make go' (as in what a chauffeur's boss does, re: the car), and I believe even 'make make make go'. Plus, there's no Rosetta Stone for it (we looked), and most finns speak english, so it's pointless to learn from anything but a purely academic standpoint. Linguistic heaven, in other words .
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc tre dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce tre dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#1158 at 08-09-2010 05:02 PM by The Grey Badger [at Albuquerque, NM joined Sep 2001 #posts 8,876]
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Quote Originally Posted by ziggyX65 View Post
Clearly it's not *all* gone.....
Those are the last words that leave you. Mierde!







Post#1159 at 08-09-2010 10:54 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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Quote Originally Posted by Justin '77 View Post
If you like to play with grammar, a major marker along your road will be the Georgian language. More noun-genders than any decent people need, and buttloads of declensions for each one.

Finnish is also fun, what with their verb-construction that changes 'go' to 'make go' (as in, drive a car), then again to 'make make go' (as in what a chauffeur's boss does, re: the car), and I believe even 'make make make go'. Plus, there's no Rosetta Stone for it (we looked), and most finns speak english, so it's pointless to learn from anything but a purely academic standpoint. Linguistic heaven, in other words .
Geogian is INSANE! The verb morphology is frightening! And Split-Ergative alignment? REALLY?

I would like to learn Ojibwe, by any polysythetic language is simply intimidating, and Ojibwe is the archetypal polysythetic language.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#1160 at 08-09-2010 11:19 PM by Tone70 [at Omaha joined Apr 2010 #posts 1,473]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
Geogian is INSANE! The verb morphology is frightening! And Split-Ergative alignment? REALLY?

I would like to learn Ojibwe, by any polysythetic language is simply intimidating, and Ojibwe is the archetypal polysythetic language.
LOL. Wow I do not know what the majority of these words mean.
"Freedom is not something that the rulers "give" the population...people have immense power potential. It is ultimately their attitudes, behavior, cooperation, and obedience that supply the power to all rulers and hierarchical systems..." - Gene Sharp

"The Occupy protesters are acting like citizens, believing they have the power to change things...that humble people can acquire power when they convince themselves they can." - William Greider







Post#1161 at 08-09-2010 11:21 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
Geogian is INSANE! The verb morphology is frightening! And Split-Ergative alignment? REALLY?
I learned about half the letters (to read, most emphatically not to write ), and a dozen or so words and phrases. But not only is it a hard grammar; it's pretty much noncognate (loanwords, of course, excepted -- 'pineapple' is 'ananas' in Finnish, even... so loanwords-as-cognates is blatant cheating, if you ask me ) with anything else I know.

I had an easier time picking up actual usable Chinese -- what with their word-order-grammar that even uses mostly the same order as English, and the large number of with-japanese cognates -- than I did making any headway with Georgian. I learned enough to know that I just don't have the time to give it the attention it demands. Some day, maybe, I'll find an excuse to go live in Abkhazia for three years or so and really get my hands around the language.

I would like to learn Ojibwe...
One of my sisters spent a goodly chunk of time with the Peace Corps in Mali. She came back fluent in Bambara and high-conversational in Bomu (which has, she tells me, nine 'genders'!!). IMO, the only way to really learn a language that grammatically complex is to live under it and develop a feel for it -- like a native-speaker would have.

One does oneself no good at all trying to intellectualize even as much as six cases in real usage; best simply to have an ear for what 'sounds right' and what doesn't. And that only comes from concentrated-exposure.
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc tre dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce tre dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#1162 at 08-09-2010 11:23 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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Quote Originally Posted by Tone70 View Post
LOL. Wow I do not know what the majority of these words mean.
What really sucks is that there is no way in English to describe it any better than using those made-up terms. When we have no corollary for a thing, it's tough to communicate clearly about it.
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc tre dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce tre dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#1163 at 08-10-2010 08:37 AM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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Quote Originally Posted by Justin '77 View Post
I had an easier time picking up actual usable Chinese -- what with their word-order-grammar that even uses mostly the same order as English, and the large number of with-japanese cognates -- than I did making any headway with Georgian. I learned enough to know that I just don't have the time to give it the attention it demands. Some day, maybe, I'll find an excuse to go live in Abkhazia for three years or so and really get my hands around the language.
IIRC Abkhaz is one of those NW Caucasian languages with 2 vowels and a crap-load of consonants!

Quote Originally Posted by Justin '77 View Post
One of my sisters spent a goodly chunk of time with the Peace Corps in Mali. She came back fluent in Bambara and high-conversational in Bomu (which has, she tells me, nine 'genders'!!). IMO, the only way to really learn a language that grammatically complex is to live under it and develop a feel for it -- like a native-speaker would have.
She probably meant 9 Noun Classes, which is pretty much the same thing, except not as arbitrary as gender in Indo-European or Semitic languages.

One language that would be really cool to learn is Coptic, which is the direct descendant of the Ancient Egyptian language. It is related to the Semitic languages as part of the Afro-Asiatic Family, but it's on a branch of it's own.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#1164 at 08-10-2010 12:46 PM by jamesdglick [at Clarksville, TN joined Mar 2007 #posts 2,007]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
Funny how many of the right-wingers that blast "socialism" benefit from a government check...
-The difference being that I provided (and might still have to provide) a service which you seem unable to provide yourself (I don't see you lasting too long as a military linguist). You, otoh, get a check from the taxpayer for breathing.

Thanks.

Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
...they are perfectly fine with themselves getting government money because they are "hard-working REAL Americans" that "Deserve It"...
-Bingo, except the word is "earned", unlike getting stuff fromm others just for breathing:

Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
Minnesota is already a Welfare state. The poor and disabled get *GASP* state health coverage!
...which I suspect you intended to do anyway.

Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
...Glick was accusing me of being a lazy bum because I cannot tolerate working in a common McJob. "willpower" does not eliminate my sensory sensitivities and my impairments in non-verbal communication, that later making me scared to death of accidentally pissing off a supervisor with an ego...
-Well, the self-procalimed One-Eyed God of Wisdom had an grandfather who apparently had the willpower to get along just fine without a sympathy or financial handout:

Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
...Those traits certainly run in families, my mom's side is full of accountants, mechanics, and engineers, and my mom's dad, an '17 cohort bank accountant, was quite likely an Aspie himself, my grandmother on my mom's side always remarks about I "remind her so much about my grandpa Kenneth".
...now the thing about Asperger's syndrome, is that the sufferers are supposed to be very good at detailed analysis. Maybe if he applied those supposed qualities to his posts, he wouldn't make such stupid knee-jerk accusations.

Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
I would probably have finished college and have a decent job by now had I not lost my Pell Grant eligibility because of changes in my parents' income, and I sure as hell am not gonna take out student loans, so I am paying my way class by class...
1) Damn your parents increased wealth!

2) Debt avoidance is smart, but why are you worried? Uncle Sam is now handling student loans...

Quote Originally Posted by The Grey Badger View Post
"Take up thy bed and walk, oh, thee of little faith...."
-You've GOT to be kidding. See above.

Quote Originally Posted by Tone70 View Post
...Jimmy's point is that it's Okay for to him obsesivelly stalk, be meanly antagonist and creepy crazy as long as his victim, ahem, target, is in his eyes somehow

WRONG...
-Temper, temper!

He's not wrong just in my eyes, he's objectively wrong, unless you have a wierd definition of "wrong".

Ignoring your spin, the fact is that the self-proclaimed One-Eyed God of Wisdom doesn't show a lot of wisdom. He constantly jumps to conclusions about the non-existent violence of people with whom he disagrees, which itself tends to incite the "spiral of violence".

And then Tone tries to run cover for him, based on shared partisan proclivites.

How sweet.

Is your next step to tell your mommy on me?

Perhaps the self-proclaimed One-Eyed God of Wisdom could post a little more thoughtfully, and then apologize if his jump to conclusions turns out to be, well,

WRONG.

And then, stop doing it.

I'd still like to know, which of these policies:

Quote Originally Posted by jamesdglick View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Coughlin

Among the articles of the NUSJ,

...were work and income guarantees...

...nationalizing "necessary" industry...

...wealth redistribution through taxation of the wealthy...

...federal protection of worker's unions...

...decreasing property rights in favor of the government controlling the country's assets for "public good."
...do you disagree with?

Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
...I'm majoring in Foreign Languages, BTW, with an emphasis on Spanish. I may add a Hindi emphasis, too. I am hoping to be a translator, translating text from English to Spanish...
-Hmmm...

You might do better with the Hindi. Amercia isn't exactly short of people who know English and Spanish. Hindi, yes.

Quote Originally Posted by The Wonkette View Post
...I'm probably somewhere on the spectrum and I can't learn a foreign language worth a d**n. My brain freezes!

Each to his own. I admire people who can do foreign languages.
-The military did a study several decades ago, and discovered that musical ability was a bigger component (25% IIRC) of language learning ability than intelligence (10% IIRC).

Another part is willingness to make a mistake, then move on if you do. That might explain the "brain freezes"?

Some people have the gift, most don't.

Of course, hard work and interest in learning the language doesn't hurt.

I was always more about "hard work" than "the gift".

Quote Originally Posted by haymarket martyr View Post
WARNING: The poster known as jamesdglick has a history of engaging in fraud. He makes things up out of his own head and attempts to use these blatant lies to score points in his arguments. When you call him on it, he will only lie further. He has such a reputation for doing this that many people here are cowed into silence and will not acknowledge it or confront him on it.

Anyone who attempts to engage with glick will discover this and find out you have wasted your time and energy on an intellectual fraud of the worst sort.
...So cry many Boomers like Haymarket whenever they fail to explain their hypocritical self-justifications, their double-standards, and their double-think forays into evil. Perhaps their consciences bother them, perhaps not. Who knows!







Post#1165 at 08-10-2010 01:00 PM by Adina [at joined Jan 2010 #posts 3,613]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
It's the most conservative of all the Germanic languages, grammatically, it's almost identical to it's ancestor Old Norse in most everything except pronunciation (Icelandic has had a bunch of weird-as- sound changes, like /ll/ > /tl/ and /hw/ > /kv/).
The sound changes aren't *that* weird. Faroese ones are more bizarre IMO.







Post#1166 at 08-10-2010 01:06 PM by Adina [at joined Jan 2010 #posts 3,613]
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Quote Originally Posted by Roadbldr '59 View Post
How does Icelandic differ from Norwegian?
Here's the Lord's Prayer in Old English, Old Norse, Icelandic, and Norwegian. Notice how similar Modern Icelandic is to Old Norse, compared to how much Norwegian has changed since the Old Norse period of about 1000 years ago. Modern written Norwegian is practically identical to modern Danish and Swedish, but very divergent from Old Norse--about as much as modern English is from Old English. Also notice the obvious similarities between Old Norse and Old English.

Old English
Fder ūre
Fder ūre, ū e eart on heofonum;
Sīe īn nama gehālgod,
tō becume īn rīce,
gewure īn willa,
on eoran swā swā on heofonum.
Urne gedghwamlican hlāf sele ūs tōdg,
and forgif ūs ūre gyltas,
swā swā wē forgifa ūrum gyltendum,
and ne gelǣd ū ūs on costnunge,
ac ālȳs ūs of yfele, sōlīce.

Old Norse
Faer vr
Faer vr es ert himenrki, veri nafn itt hilagt
Til kome rke itt, vri vili in
sva a iaru sem himnum.
Gef oss dag brau vort dagligt
Ok fyr gefu oss syner rar,
sem vr fyr gefom eim er vi oss hafa misgert
Leid oss eigi freistni, heldr leys v oss fr llu illu.

Icelandic
Fair vor
Fair vor, sem er himnum.
Helgist itt nafn, til komi itt rki,
veri inn vilji svo jru sem himni.
Gef oss dag vort daglegt brau
og fyrirgef oss vorar skuldir,
svo sem vr og fyrirgefum
vorum skuldunautum.
Eigi lei oss freistni,
heldur frelsa oss fr illu.
[v a itt er rki, mtturinn og drin
a eilfu.]
Amen.
(and you could change the word order and phrase it differently and it would look even more similar to Old Norse.)

Norwegian
Vr Far
Vr Far i himmelen!
La navnet ditt helliges.
La riket ditt komme.
La viljen din skje p jorden slik som i himmelen.
Gi oss i dag vrt daglige brd,
og tilgi oss vr skyld,
slik ogs vi tilgir vre skyldnere.
Og la oss ikke komme i fristelse,
men frels oss fra det onde.
For riket er ditt og makten og ren i evighet.
Amen.

from http://www.prayer.su/
Last edited by Adina; 08-10-2010 at 01:10 PM.







Post#1167 at 08-10-2010 01:18 PM by The Grey Badger [at Albuquerque, NM joined Sep 2001 #posts 8,876]
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I was going to ask, out of curiosity, what you were working at or studying. Aha! A language geek! <G> -- Good for you!

Specialty in Northern languages, or exactly what? And with what career path in mind? This is wonderful!

UNM has a program that offers Old English and Old Norse, not sure if there are any others, which count towards their Medieval Studies minor. If the University doesn't axe the program for budgetary reasons. They've already gutted the History department. I'm not altogether sure they can get rid of Dr. Damico, who teaches Old English. She's emerita and would probably teach it for no pay at all.

Pat, who can read and understand precisely one of these. Sōlīce!







Post#1168 at 08-10-2010 03:18 PM by Tone70 [at Omaha joined Apr 2010 #posts 1,473]
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Quote Originally Posted by Justin '77 View Post
What really sucks is that there is no way in English to describe it any better than using those made-up terms. When we have no corollary for a thing, it's tough to communicate clearly about it.
Yes, I find in my case that the terms defeat my intuition and do not have the mind "stickiness" of many other facts, terms and concepts.
"Freedom is not something that the rulers "give" the population...people have immense power potential. It is ultimately their attitudes, behavior, cooperation, and obedience that supply the power to all rulers and hierarchical systems..." - Gene Sharp

"The Occupy protesters are acting like citizens, believing they have the power to change things...that humble people can acquire power when they convince themselves they can." - William Greider







Post#1169 at 08-10-2010 03:22 PM by Tone70 [at Omaha joined Apr 2010 #posts 1,473]
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Quote Originally Posted by Adina View Post
Here's the Lord's Prayer in Old English, Old Norse, Icelandic, and Norwegian. Notice how similar Modern Icelandic is to Old Norse, compared to how much Norwegian has changed since the Old Norse period of about 1000 years ago. Modern written Norwegian is practically identical to modern Danish and Swedish, but very divergent from Old Norse--about as much as modern English is from Old English. Also notice the obvious similarities between Old Norse and Old English.

Old English
Fder ūre
Fder ūre, ū e eart on heofonum;
Sīe īn nama gehālgod,
tō becume īn rīce,
gewure īn willa,
on eoran swā swā on heofonum.
Urne gedghwamlican hlāf sele ūs tōdg,
and forgif ūs ūre gyltas,
swā swā wē forgifa ūrum gyltendum,
and ne gelǣd ū ūs on costnunge,
ac ālȳs ūs of yfele, sōlīce.

Old Norse
Faer vr
Faer vr es ert himenrki, veri nafn itt hilagt
Til kome rke itt, vri vili in
sva a iaru sem himnum.
Gef oss dag brau vort dagligt
Ok fyr gefu oss syner rar,
sem vr fyr gefom eim er vi oss hafa misgert
Leid oss eigi freistni, heldr leys v oss fr llu illu.

Icelandic
Fair vor
Fair vor, sem er himnum.
Helgist itt nafn, til komi itt rki,
veri inn vilji svo jru sem himni.
Gef oss dag vort daglegt brau
og fyrirgef oss vorar skuldir,
svo sem vr og fyrirgefum
vorum skuldunautum.
Eigi lei oss freistni,
heldur frelsa oss fr illu.
[v a itt er rki, mtturinn og drin
a eilfu.]
Amen.
(and you could change the word order and phrase it differently and it would look even more similar to Old Norse.)

Norwegian
Vr Far
Vr Far i himmelen!
La navnet ditt helliges.
La riket ditt komme.
La viljen din skje p jorden slik som i himmelen.
Gi oss i dag vrt daglige brd,
og tilgi oss vr skyld,
slik ogs vi tilgir vre skyldnere.
Og la oss ikke komme i fristelse,
men frels oss fra det onde.
For riket er ditt og makten og ren i evighet.
Amen.

from http://www.prayer.su/
There's such a thing as middle English as well, yes? Do you have it that language? I think that there are enough similarities with modern English that having it for comparison would perhaps provide insight for us less versed in such things.
"Freedom is not something that the rulers "give" the population...people have immense power potential. It is ultimately their attitudes, behavior, cooperation, and obedience that supply the power to all rulers and hierarchical systems..." - Gene Sharp

"The Occupy protesters are acting like citizens, believing they have the power to change things...that humble people can acquire power when they convince themselves they can." - William Greider







Post#1170 at 08-10-2010 04:57 PM by Adina [at joined Jan 2010 #posts 3,613]
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08-10-2010, 04:57 PM #1170
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Quote Originally Posted by Tone70 View Post
There's such a thing as middle English as well, yes? Do you have it that language? I think that there are enough similarities with modern English that having it for comparison would perhaps provide insight for us less versed in such things.
I was pointing out the similarity between Old English and Old Norse. Middle English would probably have less in common. And I believe most people know the Lord's Prayer by heart, so a translation isn't necessary. But if you want it in ME or just about any language, the website to which I linked provides it in a bajillion different languages.







Post#1171 at 08-10-2010 11:26 PM by Tone70 [at Omaha joined Apr 2010 #posts 1,473]
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08-10-2010, 11:26 PM #1171
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Cool I'll look there.
"Freedom is not something that the rulers "give" the population...people have immense power potential. It is ultimately their attitudes, behavior, cooperation, and obedience that supply the power to all rulers and hierarchical systems..." - Gene Sharp

"The Occupy protesters are acting like citizens, believing they have the power to change things...that humble people can acquire power when they convince themselves they can." - William Greider







Post#1172 at 08-10-2010 11:32 PM by Tone70 [at Omaha joined Apr 2010 #posts 1,473]
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08-10-2010, 11:32 PM #1172
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Here it is...
Oure fadir
Oure fadir at art in heuenes halwid be i name;
i reume or kyngdom come to be.
Be i wille don in here as it is doun in heuene.
yeue to us today oure eche dayes bred.
And foryeue to us oure dettis at is oure synnys as we foryeuen to oure dettouris at is to men at han synned in us.
And lede us not into temptacion but delyuere us from euyl.
It's so much closer to what we speak. I find that interesting and thought it would be good to have it here (with those you posted), for others, like me, who lack Justin's,Odin's and your level of knowledge on the subject.
"Freedom is not something that the rulers "give" the population...people have immense power potential. It is ultimately their attitudes, behavior, cooperation, and obedience that supply the power to all rulers and hierarchical systems..." - Gene Sharp

"The Occupy protesters are acting like citizens, believing they have the power to change things...that humble people can acquire power when they convince themselves they can." - William Greider







Post#1173 at 08-10-2010 11:41 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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08-10-2010, 11:41 PM #1173
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Quote Originally Posted by Adina View Post
Two points.

First: Lenin must be rolling in his grave. A "Lord's Prayer In All Languages" hosted on a .su (Soviet Union - created for them, at least) domain. Hee hee.

Second: Wow. Talk about a blast from the past. We had to memorize and recite the Notre Pere in 3rd-year French; delightful to find I still remember it all. Although that last part about 'kingdom, power, and glory' is purely optional, and was omitted both in the masses I attended in GA, AZ, and Oregon, as well as in our Religion class. Even the Notre Pere we memorized didn't have it.

.. oh my, how much I remember of those useless memorizations. I've still got about a quarter (beginning and end; the middle is gone) of The Raven on speed-recall -- Freshman English, that. and there's the fourth-year French bible verse memorizations... "Car dieu a tant aim la monde, qu'il a donn son fils unique, afin que quiconque croit en lui ne prisse point, mais reste dans la vie ternelle." I always loved to say the 'que quiconque croit' part. It's so damned french-sounding .

Thanks for the stroll through nostalgia-alley.
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc tre dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce tre dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#1174 at 08-11-2010 12:34 AM by Adina [at joined Jan 2010 #posts 3,613]
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08-11-2010, 12:34 AM #1174
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Quote Originally Posted by Tone70 View Post
Here it is...


It's so much closer to what we speak. I find that interesting and thought it would be good to have it here (with those you posted), for others, like me, who lack Justin's,Odin's and your level of knowledge on the subject.
A few things to keep in mind about the orthography: When one transcribes old texts in ME, the letters "u" and "v" are interchangeable. The letter (thorn) was pronounced "th". And they didn't have strict spelling rules like today.

As for the pronunciation, it is very different in Middle English than in Modern, because of the "Great Vowel Shift" which occurred around the 1500s at the start of Modern English. You can read about it on Wikipedia. Although it looks on paper very similar to Modern English, it was pronounced anything but--so it would be hard to understand a speaker of Middle English, unless you learn the rules of how the vowels shifted and then compensate for the changes. If you were to try to speak in Middle English, it has been said that you would likely sound better than the average foreigner, but not exactly like a native speaker of the time, but would be relatively understandable.







Post#1175 at 08-11-2010 12:38 AM by Adina [at joined Jan 2010 #posts 3,613]
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08-11-2010, 12:38 AM #1175
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Two points.

First: Lenin must be rolling in his grave. A "Lord's Prayer In All Languages" hosted on a .su (Soviet Union - created for them, at least) domain. Hee hee.
Silly communists for being so anti-religious. Although I think it's cool that they still have top-level domains for non-existent countries.

Thanks for the stroll through nostalgia-alley.
You're Welcome. ^_^
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