How does Icelandic differ from Norwegian?Originally Posted by Odin
That recently well known autistic savant Daniel Tammet, author of the memoir Born on a Blue Day, Learned Icelandic in a month and proved it by speaking good Icelandic on a TV news show in Iceland.
"Better hurry. There's a storm coming. His storm!!!" :-O -Abigail Freemantle, "The Stand" by Stephen King
It's the most conservative of all the Germanic languages, grammatically, it's almost identical to it's ancestor Old Norse in most everything except pronunciation (Icelandic has had a bunch of weird-as-fuck sound changes, like /ll/ > /tl/ and /hw/ > /kv/). The mainland Scandinavian languages, on the other hand, have shed much of their word endings (like English did) and have simplified their gender system by merging the Masculine and Feminine into a sing "Common" gender.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.
-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism
Not for everyone. I'm probably somewhere on the spectrum and I can't learn a foreign language worth a d**n. My brain freezes!
Each to his own. I admire people who can do foreign languages.
Last edited by The Wonkette; 08-09-2010 at 04:26 PM.
I want people to know that peace is possible even in this stupid day and age. Prem Rawat, June 8, 2008
I once was fluent in French and German- three decades ago. Now, it's all gone. Schiess! Merde!Not for everyone. I'm probably somewhere on the spectrum and I can't learn a foreign language worth a d**m. My brain freezes!
Each to his own. I admire people who can do foreign languages.
Clearly it's not *all* gone.....
I bet it's not all gone. I spent close to seven years not speaking, reading, or hearing French; it only took about three hours in Paris before it all came back to me.
Similarly, my mom spoke Lithuanian as a kid (hell, so did I a little bit with my great-grandparents). Then she went like 35 years not really using it at all -- she got to the point where she had to really dig to come up with even the most basic of words. But five minutes' conversation with the lithuanian guy who came over to play for the Trailblazers was enough for it to all come back to her.
I'd say that a language that an adult speaks is never lost; it just gets stuck back in a dark, dusty corner of memory that can be hard to find at first. Kids seem to be plastic enough that they can truly forget languages (likely a flipside of their spooky ability to pick them up). But grownups aren't that way.
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch
"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy
"[it] is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky
If you like to play with grammar, a major marker along your road will be the Georgian language. More noun-genders than any decent people need, and buttloads of declensions for each one.
Finnish is also fun, what with their verb-construction that changes 'go' to 'make go' (as in, drive a car), then again to 'make make go' (as in what a chauffeur's boss does, re: the car), and I believe even 'make make make go'. Plus, there's no Rosetta Stone for it (we looked), and most finns speak english, so it's pointless to learn from anything but a purely academic standpoint. Linguistic heaven, in other words.
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch
"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy
"[it] is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky
Those are the last words that leave you. Mierde!Clearly it's not *all* gone.....
Geogian is INSANE! The verb morphology is frightening! And Split-Ergative alignment? REALLY?If you like to play with grammar, a major marker along your road will be the Georgian language. More noun-genders than any decent people need, and buttloads of declensions for each one.
Finnish is also fun, what with their verb-construction that changes 'go' to 'make go' (as in, drive a car), then again to 'make make go' (as in what a chauffeur's boss does, re: the car), and I believe even 'make make make go'. Plus, there's no Rosetta Stone for it (we looked), and most finns speak english, so it's pointless to learn from anything but a purely academic standpoint. Linguistic heaven, in other words
I would like to learn Ojibwe, by any polysythetic language is simply intimidating, and Ojibwe is the archetypal polysythetic language.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.
-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism
LOL. Wow I do not know what the majority of these words mean.
"Freedom is not something that the rulers "give" the population...people have immense power potential. It is ultimately their attitudes, behavior, cooperation, and obedience that supply the power to all rulers and hierarchical systems..." - Gene Sharp
"The Occupy protesters are acting like citizens, believing they have the power to change things...that humble people can acquire power when they convince themselves they can." - William Greider
I learned about half the letters (to read, most emphatically not to write), and a dozen or so words and phrases. But not only is it a hard grammar; it's pretty much noncognate (loanwords, of course, excepted -- 'pineapple' is 'ananas' in Finnish, even... so loanwords-as-cognates is blatant cheating, if you ask me
) with anything else I know.
I had an easier time picking up actual usable Chinese -- what with their word-order-grammar that even uses mostly the same order as English, and the large number of with-japanese cognates -- than I did making any headway with Georgian. I learned enough to know that I just don't have the time to give it the attention it demands. Some day, maybe, I'll find an excuse to go live in Abkhazia for three years or so and really get my hands around the language.
One of my sisters spent a goodly chunk of time with the Peace Corps in Mali. She came back fluent in Bambara and high-conversational in Bomu (which has, she tells me, nine 'genders'!!). IMO, the only way to really learn a language that grammatically complex is to live under it and develop a feel for it -- like a native-speaker would have.I would like to learn Ojibwe...
One does oneself no good at all trying to intellectualize even as much as six cases in real usage; best simply to have an ear for what 'sounds right' and what doesn't. And that only comes from concentrated-exposure.
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch
"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy
"[it] is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky
What really sucks is that there is no way in English to describe it any better than using those made-up terms. When we have no corollary for a thing, it's tough to communicate clearly about it.LOL. Wow I do not know what the majority of these words mean.
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch
"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy
"[it] is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky
IIRC Abkhaz is one of those NW Caucasian languages with 2 vowels and a crap-load of consonants!
She probably meant 9 Noun Classes, which is pretty much the same thing, except not as arbitrary as gender in Indo-European or Semitic languages.
One language that would be really cool to learn is Coptic, which is the direct descendant of the Ancient Egyptian language. It is related to the Semitic languages as part of the Afro-Asiatic Family, but it's on a branch of it's own.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.
-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism
-The difference being that I provided (and might still have to provide) a service which you seem unable to provide yourself (I don't see you lasting too long as a military linguist). You, otoh, get a check from the taxpayer for breathing.
Thanks.
-Bingo, except the word is "earned", unlike getting stuff fromm others just for breathing:
...which I suspect you intended to do anyway.
-Well, the self-procalimed One-Eyed God of Wisdom had an grandfather who apparently had the willpower to get along just fine without a sympathy or financial handout:
...now the thing about Asperger's syndrome, is that the sufferers are supposed to be very good at detailed analysis. Maybe if he applied those supposed qualities to his posts, he wouldn't make such stupid knee-jerk accusations.
1) Damn your parents increased wealth!
2) Debt avoidance is smart, but why are you worried? Uncle Sam is now handling student loans...
-You've GOT to be kidding. See above.
-Temper, temper!
He's not wrong just in my eyes, he's objectively wrong, unless you have a wierd definition of "wrong".
Ignoring your spin, the fact is that the self-proclaimed One-Eyed God of Wisdom doesn't show a lot of wisdom. He constantly jumps to conclusions about the non-existent violence of people with whom he disagrees, which itself tends to incite the "spiral of violence".
And then Tone tries to run cover for him, based on shared partisan proclivites.
How sweet.
Is your next step to tell your mommy on me?
Perhaps the self-proclaimed One-Eyed God of Wisdom could post a little more thoughtfully, and then apologize if his jump to conclusions turns out to be, well,
WRONG.
And then, stop doing it.
I'd still like to know, which of these policies:
...do you disagree with?
-Hmmm...
You might do better with the Hindi. Amercia isn't exactly short of people who know English and Spanish. Hindi, yes.
-The military did a study several decades ago, and discovered that musical ability was a bigger component (25% IIRC) of language learning ability than intelligence (10% IIRC).
Another part is willingness to make a mistake, then move on if you do. That might explain the "brain freezes"?
Some people have the gift, most don't.
Of course, hard work and interest in learning the language doesn't hurt.
I was always more about "hard work" than "the gift".
...So cry many Boomers like Haymarket whenever they fail to explain their hypocritical self-justifications, their double-standards, and their double-think forays into evil. Perhaps their consciences bother them, perhaps not. Who knows!
The sound changes aren't *that* weird. Faroese ones are more bizarre IMO.
Here's the Lord's Prayer in Old English, Old Norse, Icelandic, and Norwegian. Notice how similar Modern Icelandic is to Old Norse, compared to how much Norwegian has changed since the Old Norse period of about 1000 years ago. Modern written Norwegian is practically identical to modern Danish and Swedish, but very divergent from Old Norse--about as much as modern English is from Old English. Also notice the obvious similarities between Old Norse and Old English.
Old English
Fæder ūre
Fæder ūre, þū þe eart on heofonum;
Sīe þīn nama gehālgod,
tō becume þīn rīce,
gewurþe þīn willa,
on eorðan swā swā on heofonum.
Urne gedæghwamlican hlāf sele ūs tōdæg,
and forgif ūs ūre gyltas,
swā swā wē forgifaþ ūrum gyltendum,
and ne gelǣd þū ūs on costnunge,
ac ālȳs ūs of yfele, sōþlīce.
Old Norse
Faþer vár
Faþer vár es ert í himenríki, verði nafn þitt hæilagt
Til kome ríke þitt, værði vili þin
sva a iarðu sem í himnum.
Gef oss í dag brauð vort dagligt
Ok fyr gefþu oss synþer órar,
sem vér fyr gefom þeim er viþ oss hafa misgert
Leiðd oss eigi í freistni, heldr leys þv oss frá öllu illu.
Icelandic
Faðir vor
Faðir vor, þú sem er á himnum.
Helgist þitt nafn, til komi þitt ríki,
verði þinn vilji svo á jörðu sem á himni.
Gef oss í dag vort daglegt brauð
og fyrirgef oss vorar skuldir,
svo sem vér og fyrirgefum
vorum skuldunautum.
Eigi leið þú oss í freistni,
heldur frelsa oss frá illu.
[Því að þitt er ríkið, mátturinn og dýrðin
að eilífu.]
Amen.
(and you could change the word order and phrase it differently and it would look even more similar to Old Norse.)
Norwegian
Vår Far
Vår Far i himmelen!
La navnet ditt helliges.
La riket ditt komme.
La viljen din skje på jorden slik som i himmelen.
Gi oss i dag vårt daglige brød,
og tilgi oss vår skyld,
slik også vi tilgir våre skyldnere.
Og la oss ikke komme i fristelse,
men frels oss fra det onde.
For riket er ditt og makten og æren i evighet.
Amen.
from http://www.prayer.su/
Last edited by Adina; 08-10-2010 at 01:10 PM.
I was going to ask, out of curiosity, what you were working at or studying. Aha! A language geek! <G> -- Good for you!
Specialty in Northern languages, or exactly what? And with what career path in mind? This is wonderful!
UNM has a program that offers Old English and Old Norse, not sure if there are any others, which count towards their Medieval Studies minor. If the University doesn't axe the program for budgetary reasons. They've already gutted the History department. I'm not altogether sure they can get rid of Dr. Damico, who teaches Old English. She's emerita and would probably teach it for no pay at all.
Pat, who can read and understand precisely one of these. Sōþlīce!
Yes, I find in my case that the terms defeat my intuition and do not have the mind "stickiness" of many other facts, terms and concepts.
"Freedom is not something that the rulers "give" the population...people have immense power potential. It is ultimately their attitudes, behavior, cooperation, and obedience that supply the power to all rulers and hierarchical systems..." - Gene Sharp
"The Occupy protesters are acting like citizens, believing they have the power to change things...that humble people can acquire power when they convince themselves they can." - William Greider
There's such a thing as middle English as well, yes? Do you have it that language? I think that there are enough similarities with modern English that having it for comparison would perhaps provide insight for us less versed in such things.
"Freedom is not something that the rulers "give" the population...people have immense power potential. It is ultimately their attitudes, behavior, cooperation, and obedience that supply the power to all rulers and hierarchical systems..." - Gene Sharp
"The Occupy protesters are acting like citizens, believing they have the power to change things...that humble people can acquire power when they convince themselves they can." - William Greider
I was pointing out the similarity between Old English and Old Norse. Middle English would probably have less in common. And I believe most people know the Lord's Prayer by heart, so a translation isn't necessary. But if you want it in ME or just about any language, the website to which I linked provides it in a bajillion different languages.
Cool I'll look there.
"Freedom is not something that the rulers "give" the population...people have immense power potential. It is ultimately their attitudes, behavior, cooperation, and obedience that supply the power to all rulers and hierarchical systems..." - Gene Sharp
"The Occupy protesters are acting like citizens, believing they have the power to change things...that humble people can acquire power when they convince themselves they can." - William Greider
Here it is...
It's so much closer to what we speak. I find that interesting and thought it would be good to have it here (with those you posted), for others, like me, who lack Justin's,Odin's and your level of knowledge on the subject.Oure fadir
Oure fadir þat art in heuenes halwid be þi name;
þi reume or kyngdom come to be.
Be þi wille don in herþe as it is doun in heuene.
yeue to us today oure eche dayes bred.
And foryeue to us oure dettis þat is oure synnys as we foryeuen to oure dettouris þat is to men þat han synned in us.
And lede us not into temptacion but delyuere us from euyl.
"Freedom is not something that the rulers "give" the population...people have immense power potential. It is ultimately their attitudes, behavior, cooperation, and obedience that supply the power to all rulers and hierarchical systems..." - Gene Sharp
"The Occupy protesters are acting like citizens, believing they have the power to change things...that humble people can acquire power when they convince themselves they can." - William Greider
Two points.
First: Lenin must be rolling in his grave. A "Lord's Prayer In All Languages" hosted on a .su (Soviet Union - created for them, at least) domain. Hee hee.
Second: Wow. Talk about a blast from the past. We had to memorize and recite the Notre Pere in 3rd-year French; delightful to find I still remember it all. Although that last part about 'kingdom, power, and glory' is purely optional, and was omitted both in the masses I attended in GA, AZ, and Oregon, as well as in our Religion class. Even the Notre Pere we memorized didn't have it.
.. oh my, how much I remember of those useless memorizations. I've still got about a quarter (beginning and end; the middle is gone) of The Raven on speed-recall -- Freshman English, that. and there's the fourth-year French bible verse memorizations... "Car dieu a tant aimé la monde, qu'il a donné son fils unique, afin que quiconque croit en lui ne périsse point, mais reste dans la vie éternelle." I always loved to say the 'que quiconque croit' part. It's so damned french-sounding
Thanks for the stroll through nostalgia-alley.
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch
"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy
"[it] is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky
A few things to keep in mind about the orthography: When one transcribes old texts in ME, the letters "u" and "v" are interchangeable. The letter þ (thorn) was pronounced "th". And they didn't have strict spelling rules like today.
As for the pronunciation, it is very different in Middle English than in Modern, because of the "Great Vowel Shift" which occurred around the 1500s at the start of Modern English. You can read about it on Wikipedia. Although it looks on paper very similar to Modern English, it was pronounced anything but--so it would be hard to understand a speaker of Middle English, unless you learn the rules of how the vowels shifted and then compensate for the changes. If you were to try to speak in Middle English, it has been said that you would likely sound better than the average foreigner, but not exactly like a native speaker of the time, but would be relatively understandable.
Silly communists for being so anti-religious. Although I think it's cool that they still have top-level domains for non-existent countries.Two points.
First: Lenin must be rolling in his grave. A "Lord's Prayer In All Languages" hosted on a .su (Soviet Union - created for them, at least) domain. Hee hee.
You're Welcome. ^_^Thanks for the stroll through nostalgia-alley.
