Originally Posted by James50

Do you live in Arizona?

James50

No, but my Hispanic daughter-in-law and son did. They have now moved to our state so our son could finish med school here at Wash U.. Our daughter-in-law has lived in this country since she was two years old. She is here legally, and knows first hand the racist mentality of some parts of Arizona.

PS:
I do hope you got to see the video that I posted about Beck's hateful messages.

http://www.commondreams.org/newswire/2010/08/27-5

Part of a summary of the "fascist" rally in the WSJ:

"The organizers did not appear to have planned for a crowd so large. Thousands sat on patches of lawn out of sight of the few Jumbo-trons that displayed the action on the stage. Several times, portions of the crowd, unable to hear the speakers, chanted "louder, louder." Many people wore shirts with American flags and faces of heroes from the American Revolution. People followed the instructions to bring no political signs.

"These are just totally normal, go-to-work, Honey-can-I-do-the-dishes people -- who are fed up," said David McGregor, a real-estate developer who had flown to Washington from Orlando, Fla.

After the rally, a number of people said they took as the main message of the gathering that they had to get their own houses in order. "This is about each of us individually," said John Houck, a Vietnam War veteran who had come from Raleigh, N.C.

The gathering was also his first-ever political event. "We are not rally people," he said, standing beside his wife, Louise."

more here: http://bit.ly/cEyLpe

If this was a fascist rally, then someone's definition of fascist needs to be changed.

Look, we have enough problems in the country without trying to look for them where they don't exist. The ones I can see - corporatism, resource depletion, income inequality, mountains of public debt, and a broken political system - are bad enough. With things like they are, I would be surprised if there were not some mass rallies. Be glad they are attempting to be as uplifting as this one. Heck, I wish I could feel like chanting "USA! USA!". We are so far down in a well of funk, any attempt to show some light feels refreshing.

James50

Originally Posted by James50

Can you substantiate this statement? That is not what the law says.

James50

Refer to my post about our son and his wife who is Hispanic and their experience while living in Phoenix.

Originally Posted by Deb C

No, but my Hispanic daughter-in-law and son did. They have now moved to our state so our son could finish med school here at Wash U.. Our daughter-in-law has lived in this country since she was two years old. She is here legally, and knows first hand the racist mentality of some parts of Arizona.

As you may know, I am a story person. Do you have some stories from your DIL about being asked for "papers"? Or being profiled by a cop?

PS:
I do hope you got to see the video that I posted about Beck's hateful messages.

http://www.commondreams.org/newswire/2010/08/27-5

You misread me. I am not a Beck fan. I have watched him only a handful of times. I am amazed he was able to create this gathering. I put him in the same category as Olbermann and Hannity. Listening to them is like listening to fingernails on a chalkboard.

However, I do not mind that someone is urging people to get their own houses in order. This seems like a good thing. The mass meeting also seems like a sign that there are large forces on the move in the country. The marginalization of the old Civil Rights movement also is interesting.

As you said, we will see what happens next.

James50

Originally Posted by James50

A person is presumed to not be an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States if the person provides to the law enforcement officer or agency any of the following:

1. A valid Arizona driver license.
2. A valid Arizona nonoperating identification license.
3. A valid tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal identification.

What about tourists from other states?

A lot of bars don't accept out-of-state driver's licenses because it's so hard to memorize 50 different designs. This law doesn't seem to require out-of-state licenses to be accepted -- I wouldn't expect cops to do so.

My partner's Latina (her grandparents immigrated). We were considering visiting the Grand Canyon. If we do go, she's bringing her birth certificate.

Originally Posted by James50

Part of a summary of the "fascist" rally in the WSJ:

"The organizers did not appear to have planned for a crowd so large. Thousands sat on patches of lawn out of sight of the few Jumbo-trons that displayed the action on the stage. Several times, portions of the crowd, unable to hear the speakers, chanted "louder, louder." Many people wore shirts with American flags and faces of heroes from the American Revolution. People followed the instructions to bring no political signs.

"These are just totally normal, go-to-work, Honey-can-I-do-the-dishes people -- who are fed up," said David McGregor, a real-estate developer who had flown to Washington from Orlando, Fla.

After the rally, a number of people said they took as the main message of the gathering that they had to get their own houses in order. "This is about each of us individually," said John Houck, a Vietnam War veteran who had come from Raleigh, N.C.

The gathering was also his first-ever political event. "We are not rally people," he said, standing beside his wife, Louise."

more here: http://bit.ly/cEyLpe

If this was a fascist rally, then someone's definition of fascist needs to be changed.

Look, we have enough problems in the country without trying to look for them where they don't exist. The ones I can see - corporatism, resource depletion, income inequality, mountains of public debt, and a broken political system - are bad enough. With things like they are, I would be surprised if there were not some mass rallies. Be glad they are attempting to be as uplifting as this one. Heck, I wish I could feel like chanting "USA! USA!". We are so far down in a well of funk, any attempt to show some light feels refreshing.

James50

We have a major difference of perceptions. People are hurting and are looking for answers. It appears that Glen Beck and Sara Palin are offering them answers through 'their' interpretation of the bible.

Many fascists have taken people down a road of hate through their interpretation of scripture.

And no, I'm not getting into a scripture discussion today.

Today's rally, IMHO, was more about bringing the black vote over to the GOP. No proof, just a hunch. Politics is all about marketing the message. Beck 'used' a great man's speech today to market a campaign. That's how I see it.

Time will tell.

Originally Posted by Ted '79

What about tourists from other states?

A lot of bars don't accept out-of-state driver's licenses because it's so hard to memorize 50 different designs. This law doesn't seem to require out-of-state licenses to be accepted -- I wouldn't expect cops to do so.

My partner's Latina (her grandparents immigrated). We were considering visiting the Grand Canyon. If we do go, she's bringing her birth certificate.

Very smart idea.

Originally Posted by Deb C

Very smart idea.

My bad. I left out number 4:

4. If the entity requires proof of legal presence in the United States before issuance, any valid United States federal, state or local government issued identification.

James50

Originally Posted by Deb C

We have a major difference of perceptions. People are hurting and are looking for answers. It appears that Glen Beck and Sara Palin are offering them answers through 'their' interpretation of the bible.

I can think of worse places than scripture to look for answers. I think you are letting your hatred of Beck and Palin color everything you see.

Many fascists have taken people down a road of hate through their interpretation of scripture.

Almost any religious text can be misinterpreted or used to manipulate. Religious texts can also be used to change lives in a positive way. By their fruits you will know them.

And no, I'm not getting into a scripture discussion today.

Today's rally, IMHO, was more about bringing the black vote over to the GOP. No proof, just a hunch. Politics is all about marketing the message. Beck 'used' a great man's speech today to market a campaign. That's how I see it.

Time will tell.

Yes it will.

James50

Originally Posted by ziggyX65

If Arizona cops are doing this, it isn't because of the law. And if they are doing this contrary to state law they should be fired.

But they will not be. Police officers are rarely sanctioned for anything but the most gross abuse. I admit frankly that this is merely my opinion based on what I've seen. FTR, I have no clear opinion worth voicing on AZ's law.

I watched the video linked above and read the WSJ article also linked.

Though I am always moved by King's 'free at last' statements, this video didn’t especially resonate with me only because it felt manipulative, what with the split screen and juxtaposition of statements.

I am not a fan of Beck. I’ve never watched nor listened to him, nor do I especially want to.

I do agree with James50 that I wouldn’t immediately define this rally as fascist. However, because of some of the very vague language used to promote both the rally and the message of the rally, I understand why many feel uncomfortable with it. I feel uncomfortable.

“Restoring America to what it once was.” “Bring honor back to America.” These kinds of statements mean very different things to different people. Spoken with fervor at a rally, they can take on an unintended (or intended) life of their own. My first question is, “to which former state do we want to restore America?” My next question is “How has America lost its honor and what is the definition of honor we’re seeking to achieve?”

I think many people call “fascist” when they see events like this because of the ambiguous but passionate calls for patriotism, for drawing a line in the sand that says participants are on the right side and those on the other side are wrong…but neither side is defined. There is a common but vague vernacular: “Restore America.” “Honor.” “Advance or perish.” The nationally-recognized speakers at this event, Palin, Beck, aren’t known for their inclusiveness and empathy but for their propensity to divide.

I don’t want to put words in anyone else’s mouth, but I believe it’s these kinds of qualities that make many people bristle at such events because, erroneously or not, they are reminiscent of early fascist rallies post WWI: There is something wrong with our nation, we have lost our honor, we will restore it, and we will show you who is to blame.

If I am not mistaken the "honor" spiel is common among the Klan and Neo-Confederates.

Originally Posted by Odin

If I am not mistaken the "honor" spiel is common among the Klan and Neo-Confederates.

If so, it's not surprising. "Honor" is a very positive word that carries very positive connotations. Generally, people want to posess honor (and receive honor.) It's a term that can be used to manipulate a group of people who are otherwise feeling vulnerable, disenfranchised and undervalued.

“Restoring America to what it once was.” “Bring honor back to America.” These kinds of statements mean very different things to different people

What it means to me is to keep some of the positive things that were changed in America over the years, but restore many of the positive aspects of the past, such as disapproval of things like abortion and alcohol, as well as isolationism.

My first impression of the rally is that it seems like something an aspiring political candidate would do. Anyone think Mr. Beck is going to run for President?

Originally Posted by Rose1992

My first impression of the rally is that it seems like something an aspiring political candidate would do. Anyone think Mr. Beck is going to run for President?

I had similar thoughts. Or at least he is trumping the message of the upcoming candidate. The neo-conservative is a genius when it comes to branding their message way before the elections.

Originally Posted by Adina

What it means to me is to keep some of the positive things that were changed in America over the years, but restore many of the positive aspects of the past, such as disapproval of things like abortion and alcohol, as well as isolationism.

When was America ever isolationist? Even Pre-America was violently, aggressively, [genocidally, had the technology been up to the task], non-isolationist.

Since close to right after the Revolution, the United States has invaded these foreign lands:

The Northwest Territory (1785-1795)
St. Domingo (1800)
Independent West Florida (1810-1813)
Canada (1812-1814)
French Polynesia (1813)
Cuba, Puerto Rico (1820-1825)
Indonesia (1832, 1838)
Samoa (1841)
China (1843)
Mexico (1842-1848)
Argentina (1852, 1853)
Nicaragua (1853, 1854)
Japan (1853-1854)
China (1854, 1855, 1856)
Uruguay (1855)
Panama (1856)
Utah Territory (1857-1858)
Nicaragua (1857)
Uruguay (1858)
Fiji Islands (1858)
Mexico (1859)
China (1859)
Angola (1860)
Colombia (1860)
Confederate States of America (1861-1865)
Panama (1865)
Mexico (1866)
China (1866)
Nicaragua (1867)
Japan (1868)
Uruguay (1868)

...

that's just the first hundred years. It doesn't get any better after that...

Originally Posted by James50

I can think of worse places than scripture to look for answers...

I can't. Anything can be justified through some passage in the Bible, and probably already has. Putting a Godly patina on immoral practices should be a sin. Judging by two millenia of immoral practices large and small, apparently it's not.

Originally Posted by Deb C

I had similar thoughts. Or at least he is trumping the message of the upcoming candidate. The neo-conservative is a genius when it comes to branding their message way before the elections.

I have noticed that he seems to be toning down a bit.

Originally Posted by BookishXer

“Restoring America to what it once was.” “Bring honor back to America.” These kinds of statements mean very different things to different people. Spoken with fervor at a rally, they can take on an unintended (or intended) life of their own. My first question is, “to which former state do we want to restore America?” My next question is “How has America lost its honor and what is the definition of honor we’re seeking to achieve?”

I think many people call “fascist” when they see events like this because of the ambiguous but passionate calls for patriotism, for drawing a line in the sand that says participants are on the right side and those on the other side are wrong…but neither side is defined. There is a common but vague vernacular: “Restore America.” “Honor.” “Advance or perish.” The nationally-recognized speakers at this event, Palin, Beck, aren’t known for their inclusiveness and empathy but for their propensity to divide.

I don’t want to put words in anyone else’s mouth, but I believe it’s these kinds of qualities that make many people bristle at such events because, erroneously or not, they are reminiscent of early fascist rallies post WWI: There is something wrong with our nation, we have lost our honor, we will restore it, and we will show you who is to blame.

I come up with the same questions. I start deconstructing the little statements and get lost in the maze of possible meanings. Eliciting an emotional response would seem to be the point of these speeches.

Overall this rally doesn't seem Fascist at all. Glenn Beck's ego certainly seems to be getting enormous though.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...990835474.html

Thanks for those links Justin. Semper Fi, ooh ra

Originally Posted by jpatrick

Eliciting an emotional response would seem to be the point of these speeches.

And HOPE!! CHANGE!!!11!!1! wasn't exactly the same?

All political speech is demagoguery. It goes back to at least the advent of broadcast-speechifying (Roosevelt? Hoover?), though it probably goes back much further than that.

Originally Posted by BookishXer

I watched the video linked above and read the WSJ article also linked.

Though I am always moved by King's 'free at last' statements, this video didn’t especially resonate with me only because it felt manipulative, what with the split screen and juxtaposition of statements.

I am not a fan of Beck. I’ve never watched nor listened to him, nor do I especially want to.

I do agree with James50 that I wouldn’t immediately define this rally as fascist. However, because of some of the very vague language used to promote both the rally and the message of the rally, I understand why many feel uncomfortable with it. I feel uncomfortable.

“Restoring America to what it once was.” “Bring honor back to America.” These kinds of statements mean very different things to different people. Spoken with fervor at a rally, they can take on an unintended (or intended) life of their own. My first question is, “to which former state do we want to restore America?” My next question is “How has America lost its honor and what is the definition of honor we’re seeking to achieve?”

I think many people call “fascist” when they see events like this because of the ambiguous but passionate calls for patriotism, for drawing a line in the sand that says participants are on the right side and those on the other side are wrong…but neither side is defined. There is a common but vague vernacular: “Restore America.” “Honor.” “Advance or perish.” The nationally-recognized speakers at this event, Palin, Beck, aren’t known for their inclusiveness and empathy but for their propensity to divide.

I don’t want to put words in anyone else’s mouth, but I believe it’s these kinds of qualities that make many people bristle at such events because, erroneously or not, they are reminiscent of early fascist rallies post WWI: There is something wrong with our nation, we have lost our honor, we will restore it, and we will show you who is to blame.

Cogent analysis. I agree and have had the same questions. Who's rights are we going to remove to get back to this better age?

Originally Posted by Rose1992

My first impression of the rally is that it seems like something an aspiring political candidate would do. Anyone think Mr. Beck is going to run for President?

And take the pay cut? Doubtful. He's been exposed to the S&H and is aiming to be this cycle's Father Coughlin in my opinion. But this time with sponsors!

Originally Posted by Justin '77

When was America ever isolationist? Even Pre-America was violently, aggressively, [genocidally, had the technology been up to the task], non-isolationist.

Since close to right after the Revolution, the United States has invaded these foreign lands:

The Northwest Territory (1785-1795)
St. Domingo (1800)
Independent West Florida (1810-1813)
Canada (1812-1814)
French Polynesia (1813)
Cuba, Puerto Rico (1820-1825)
Indonesia (1832, 1838)
Samoa (1841)
China (1843)
Mexico (1842-1848)
Argentina (1852, 1853)
Nicaragua (1853, 1854)
Japan (1853-1854)
China (1854, 1855, 1856)
Uruguay (1855)
Panama (1856)
Utah Territory (1857-1858)
Nicaragua (1857)
Uruguay (1858)
Fiji Islands (1858)
Mexico (1859)
China (1859)
Angola (1860)
Colombia (1860)
Confederate States of America (1861-1865)
Panama (1865)
Mexico (1866)
China (1866)
Nicaragua (1867)
Japan (1868)
Uruguay (1868)

...

that's just the first hundred years. It doesn't get any better after that...

Justin this is a valuable compilation. You should reproduce it in another thread so that it doesn't get lost in the spiral of violence. I think many people are unaware of the true extent of our intervention. I know I hadn't heard of many of these.

I think you guys give way to much credit to Beck and Palin.

They are religious people with a conservative platform. They use there fame to spout off as pundits. That's it!

They are not interested in subjugating you in some sort of fascist (which doesn't make sense, totalitarian governments in modern times suppress religion) state where there going to gas the Gay's and Black's.

I have seen his show a couple times, and I think he is legitimately sincere in what he says.