Generational Dynamics
Fourth Turning Forum Archive


Popular links:
Generational Dynamics Web Site
Generational Dynamics Forum
Fourth Turning Archive home page
New Fourth Turning Forum

Thread: The Spiral of Violence - Page 50







Post#1226 at 08-28-2010 05:07 PM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
---
08-28-2010, 05:07 PM #1226
Join Date
Aug 2004
Posts
6,099

Quote Originally Posted by James50 View Post
Do you live in Arizona?

James50
No, but my Hispanic daughter-in-law and son did. They have now moved to our state so our son could finish med school here at Wash U.. Our daughter-in-law has lived in this country since she was two years old. She is here legally, and knows first hand the racist mentality of some parts of Arizona.

PS:
I do hope you got to see the video that I posted about Beck's hateful messages.

http://www.commondreams.org/newswire/2010/08/27-5
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#1227 at 08-28-2010 05:14 PM by James50 [at Atlanta, GA US joined Feb 2010 #posts 3,605]
---
08-28-2010, 05:14 PM #1227
Join Date
Feb 2010
Location
Atlanta, GA US
Posts
3,605

Part of a summary of the "fascist" rally in the WSJ:

"The organizers did not appear to have planned for a crowd so large. Thousands sat on patches of lawn out of sight of the few Jumbo-trons that displayed the action on the stage. Several times, portions of the crowd, unable to hear the speakers, chanted "louder, louder." Many people wore shirts with American flags and faces of heroes from the American Revolution. People followed the instructions to bring no political signs.

"These are just totally normal, go-to-work, Honey-can-I-do-the-dishes people -- who are fed up," said David McGregor, a real-estate developer who had flown to Washington from Orlando, Fla.

After the rally, a number of people said they took as the main message of the gathering that they had to get their own houses in order. "This is about each of us individually," said John Houck, a Vietnam War veteran who had come from Raleigh, N.C.

The gathering was also his first-ever political event. "We are not rally people," he said, standing beside his wife, Louise."

more here: http://bit.ly/cEyLpe

If this was a fascist rally, then someone's definition of fascist needs to be changed.

Look, we have enough problems in the country without trying to look for them where they don't exist. The ones I can see - corporatism, resource depletion, income inequality, mountains of public debt, and a broken political system - are bad enough. With things like they are, I would be surprised if there were not some mass rallies. Be glad they are attempting to be as uplifting as this one. Heck, I wish I could feel like chanting "USA! USA!". We are so far down in a well of funk, any attempt to show some light feels refreshing.

James50
Last edited by James50; 08-28-2010 at 05:16 PM.
The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. - G.K. Chesterton







Post#1228 at 08-28-2010 05:18 PM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
---
08-28-2010, 05:18 PM #1228
Join Date
Aug 2004
Posts
6,099

Quote Originally Posted by James50 View Post
Can you substantiate this statement? That is not what the law says.

James50
Refer to my post about our son and his wife who is Hispanic and their experience while living in Phoenix.
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#1229 at 08-28-2010 05:25 PM by James50 [at Atlanta, GA US joined Feb 2010 #posts 3,605]
---
08-28-2010, 05:25 PM #1229
Join Date
Feb 2010
Location
Atlanta, GA US
Posts
3,605

Quote Originally Posted by Deb C View Post
No, but my Hispanic daughter-in-law and son did. They have now moved to our state so our son could finish med school here at Wash U.. Our daughter-in-law has lived in this country since she was two years old. She is here legally, and knows first hand the racist mentality of some parts of Arizona.
As you may know, I am a story person. Do you have some stories from your DIL about being asked for "papers"? Or being profiled by a cop?

PS:
I do hope you got to see the video that I posted about Beck's hateful messages.

http://www.commondreams.org/newswire/2010/08/27-5
You misread me. I am not a Beck fan. I have watched him only a handful of times. I am amazed he was able to create this gathering. I put him in the same category as Olbermann and Hannity. Listening to them is like listening to fingernails on a chalkboard.

However, I do not mind that someone is urging people to get their own houses in order. This seems like a good thing. The mass meeting also seems like a sign that there are large forces on the move in the country. The marginalization of the old Civil Rights movement also is interesting.

As you said, we will see what happens next.

James50
The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. - G.K. Chesterton







Post#1230 at 08-28-2010 05:33 PM by Ted '79 [at joined Jan 2008 #posts 322]
---
08-28-2010, 05:33 PM #1230
Join Date
Jan 2008
Posts
322

Quote Originally Posted by James50 View Post
A person is presumed to not be an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States if the person provides to the law enforcement officer or agency any of the following:

1. A valid Arizona driver license.
2. A valid Arizona nonoperating identification license.
3. A valid tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal identification.
What about tourists from other states?

A lot of bars don't accept out-of-state driver's licenses because it's so hard to memorize 50 different designs. This law doesn't seem to require out-of-state licenses to be accepted -- I wouldn't expect cops to do so.

My partner's Latina (her grandparents immigrated). We were considering visiting the Grand Canyon. If we do go, she's bringing her birth certificate.







Post#1231 at 08-28-2010 05:38 PM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
---
08-28-2010, 05:38 PM #1231
Join Date
Aug 2004
Posts
6,099

Quote Originally Posted by James50 View Post
Part of a summary of the "fascist" rally in the WSJ:

"The organizers did not appear to have planned for a crowd so large. Thousands sat on patches of lawn out of sight of the few Jumbo-trons that displayed the action on the stage. Several times, portions of the crowd, unable to hear the speakers, chanted "louder, louder." Many people wore shirts with American flags and faces of heroes from the American Revolution. People followed the instructions to bring no political signs.

"These are just totally normal, go-to-work, Honey-can-I-do-the-dishes people -- who are fed up," said David McGregor, a real-estate developer who had flown to Washington from Orlando, Fla.

After the rally, a number of people said they took as the main message of the gathering that they had to get their own houses in order. "This is about each of us individually," said John Houck, a Vietnam War veteran who had come from Raleigh, N.C.

The gathering was also his first-ever political event. "We are not rally people," he said, standing beside his wife, Louise."

more here: http://bit.ly/cEyLpe

If this was a fascist rally, then someone's definition of fascist needs to be changed.

Look, we have enough problems in the country without trying to look for them where they don't exist. The ones I can see - corporatism, resource depletion, income inequality, mountains of public debt, and a broken political system - are bad enough. With things like they are, I would be surprised if there were not some mass rallies. Be glad they are attempting to be as uplifting as this one. Heck, I wish I could feel like chanting "USA! USA!". We are so far down in a well of funk, any attempt to show some light feels refreshing.

James50
We have a major difference of perceptions. People are hurting and are looking for answers. It appears that Glen Beck and Sara Palin are offering them answers through 'their' interpretation of the bible.

Many fascists have taken people down a road of hate through their interpretation of scripture.

And no, I'm not getting into a scripture discussion today.

Today's rally, IMHO, was more about bringing the black vote over to the GOP. No proof, just a hunch. Politics is all about marketing the message. Beck 'used' a great man's speech today to market a campaign. That's how I see it.

Time will tell.
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#1232 at 08-28-2010 05:39 PM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
---
08-28-2010, 05:39 PM #1232
Join Date
Aug 2004
Posts
6,099

Quote Originally Posted by Ted '79 View Post
What about tourists from other states?

A lot of bars don't accept out-of-state driver's licenses because it's so hard to memorize 50 different designs. This law doesn't seem to require out-of-state licenses to be accepted -- I wouldn't expect cops to do so.

My partner's Latina (her grandparents immigrated). We were considering visiting the Grand Canyon. If we do go, she's bringing her birth certificate.
Very smart idea.
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#1233 at 08-28-2010 05:42 PM by James50 [at Atlanta, GA US joined Feb 2010 #posts 3,605]
---
08-28-2010, 05:42 PM #1233
Join Date
Feb 2010
Location
Atlanta, GA US
Posts
3,605

Quote Originally Posted by Deb C View Post
Very smart idea.
My bad. I left out number 4:

4. If the entity requires proof of legal presence in the United States before issuance, any valid United States federal, state or local government issued identification.

James50
The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. - G.K. Chesterton







Post#1234 at 08-28-2010 05:49 PM by James50 [at Atlanta, GA US joined Feb 2010 #posts 3,605]
---
08-28-2010, 05:49 PM #1234
Join Date
Feb 2010
Location
Atlanta, GA US
Posts
3,605

Quote Originally Posted by Deb C View Post
We have a major difference of perceptions. People are hurting and are looking for answers. It appears that Glen Beck and Sara Palin are offering them answers through 'their' interpretation of the bible.
I can think of worse places than scripture to look for answers. I think you are letting your hatred of Beck and Palin color everything you see.

Many fascists have taken people down a road of hate through their interpretation of scripture.
Almost any religious text can be misinterpreted or used to manipulate. Religious texts can also be used to change lives in a positive way. By their fruits you will know them.

And no, I'm not getting into a scripture discussion today.

Today's rally, IMHO, was more about bringing the black vote over to the GOP. No proof, just a hunch. Politics is all about marketing the message. Beck 'used' a great man's speech today to market a campaign. That's how I see it.

Time will tell.
Yes it will.

James50
Last edited by James50; 08-28-2010 at 05:51 PM.
The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. - G.K. Chesterton







Post#1235 at 08-28-2010 06:39 PM by Tone70 [at Omaha joined Apr 2010 #posts 1,473]
---
08-28-2010, 06:39 PM #1235
Join Date
Apr 2010
Location
Omaha
Posts
1,473

Quote Originally Posted by ziggyX65 View Post
If Arizona cops are doing this, it isn't because of the law. And if they are doing this contrary to state law they should be fired.
But they will not be. Police officers are rarely sanctioned for anything but the most gross abuse. I admit frankly that this is merely my opinion based on what I've seen. FTR, I have no clear opinion worth voicing on AZ's law.
Last edited by Tone70; 08-28-2010 at 06:47 PM.
"Freedom is not something that the rulers "give" the population...people have immense power potential. It is ultimately their attitudes, behavior, cooperation, and obedience that supply the power to all rulers and hierarchical systems..." - Gene Sharp

"The Occupy protesters are acting like citizens, believing they have the power to change things...that humble people can acquire power when they convince themselves they can." - William Greider







Post#1236 at 08-29-2010 11:09 AM by BookishXer [at joined Oct 2009 #posts 656]
---
08-29-2010, 11:09 AM #1236
Join Date
Oct 2009
Posts
656

I watched the video linked above and read the WSJ article also linked.

Though I am always moved by King's 'free at last' statements, this video didn’t especially resonate with me only because it felt manipulative, what with the split screen and juxtaposition of statements.

I am not a fan of Beck. I’ve never watched nor listened to him, nor do I especially want to.

I do agree with James50 that I wouldn’t immediately define this rally as fascist. However, because of some of the very vague language used to promote both the rally and the message of the rally, I understand why many feel uncomfortable with it. I feel uncomfortable.

“Restoring America to what it once was.” “Bring honor back to America.” These kinds of statements mean very different things to different people. Spoken with fervor at a rally, they can take on an unintended (or intended) life of their own. My first question is, “to which former state do we want to restore America?” My next question is “How has America lost its honor and what is the definition of honor we’re seeking to achieve?”

I think many people call “fascist” when they see events like this because of the ambiguous but passionate calls for patriotism, for drawing a line in the sand that says participants are on the right side and those on the other side are wrong…but neither side is defined. There is a common but vague vernacular: “Restore America.” “Honor.” “Advance or perish.” The nationally-recognized speakers at this event, Palin, Beck, aren’t known for their inclusiveness and empathy but for their propensity to divide.

I don’t want to put words in anyone else’s mouth, but I believe it’s these kinds of qualities that make many people bristle at such events because, erroneously or not, they are reminiscent of early fascist rallies post WWI: There is something wrong with our nation, we have lost our honor, we will restore it, and we will show you who is to blame.







Post#1237 at 08-29-2010 11:13 AM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
---
08-29-2010, 11:13 AM #1237
Join Date
Sep 2006
Location
Moorhead, MN, USA
Posts
14,442

If I am not mistaken the "honor" spiel is common among the Klan and Neo-Confederates.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#1238 at 08-29-2010 11:29 AM by BookishXer [at joined Oct 2009 #posts 656]
---
08-29-2010, 11:29 AM #1238
Join Date
Oct 2009
Posts
656

Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
If I am not mistaken the "honor" spiel is common among the Klan and Neo-Confederates.
If so, it's not surprising. "Honor" is a very positive word that carries very positive connotations. Generally, people want to posess honor (and receive honor.) It's a term that can be used to manipulate a group of people who are otherwise feeling vulnerable, disenfranchised and undervalued.







Post#1239 at 08-29-2010 11:41 AM by Adina [at joined Jan 2010 #posts 3,613]
---
08-29-2010, 11:41 AM #1239
Join Date
Jan 2010
Posts
3,613

“Restoring America to what it once was.” “Bring honor back to America.” These kinds of statements mean very different things to different people
What it means to me is to keep some of the positive things that were changed in America over the years, but restore many of the positive aspects of the past, such as disapproval of things like abortion and alcohol, as well as isolationism.







Post#1240 at 08-29-2010 12:06 PM by Rose1992 [at Syracuse joined Sep 2008 #posts 1,833]
---
08-29-2010, 12:06 PM #1240
Join Date
Sep 2008
Location
Syracuse
Posts
1,833

My first impression of the rally is that it seems like something an aspiring political candidate would do. Anyone think Mr. Beck is going to run for President?







Post#1241 at 08-29-2010 12:15 PM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
---
08-29-2010, 12:15 PM #1241
Join Date
Aug 2004
Posts
6,099

Quote Originally Posted by Rose1992 View Post
My first impression of the rally is that it seems like something an aspiring political candidate would do. Anyone think Mr. Beck is going to run for President?
I had similar thoughts. Or at least he is trumping the message of the upcoming candidate. The neo-conservative is a genius when it comes to branding their message way before the elections.
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#1242 at 08-29-2010 12:37 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
---
08-29-2010, 12:37 PM #1242
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
Meh.
Posts
12,182

Quote Originally Posted by Adina View Post
What it means to me is to keep some of the positive things that were changed in America over the years, but restore many of the positive aspects of the past, such as disapproval of things like abortion and alcohol, as well as isolationism.
When was America ever isolationist? Even Pre-America was violently, aggressively, [genocidally, had the technology been up to the task], non-isolationist.

Since close to right after the Revolution, the United States has invaded these foreign lands:

The Northwest Territory (1785-1795)
St. Domingo (1800)
Independent West Florida (1810-1813)
Canada (1812-1814)
French Polynesia (1813)
Cuba, Puerto Rico (1820-1825)
Indonesia (1832, 1838)
Samoa (1841)
China (1843)
Mexico (1842-1848)
Argentina (1852, 1853)
Nicaragua (1853, 1854)
Japan (1853-1854)
China (1854, 1855, 1856)
Uruguay (1855)
Panama (1856)
Utah Territory (1857-1858)
Nicaragua (1857)
Uruguay (1858)
Fiji Islands (1858)
Mexico (1859)
China (1859)
Angola (1860)
Colombia (1860)
Confederate States of America (1861-1865)
Panama (1865)
Mexico (1866)
China (1866)
Nicaragua (1867)
Japan (1868)
Uruguay (1868)

...

that's just the first hundred years. It doesn't get any better after that...
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc ętre dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant ŕ moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce ętre dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#1243 at 08-29-2010 12:54 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
---
08-29-2010, 12:54 PM #1243
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
'47 cohort still lost in Falwelland
Posts
16,709

Quote Originally Posted by James50 View Post
I can think of worse places than scripture to look for answers...
I can't. Anything can be justified through some passage in the Bible, and probably already has. Putting a Godly patina on immoral practices should be a sin. Judging by two millenia of immoral practices large and small, apparently it's not.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#1244 at 08-29-2010 01:36 PM by Rose1992 [at Syracuse joined Sep 2008 #posts 1,833]
---
08-29-2010, 01:36 PM #1244
Join Date
Sep 2008
Location
Syracuse
Posts
1,833

Quote Originally Posted by Deb C View Post
I had similar thoughts. Or at least he is trumping the message of the upcoming candidate. The neo-conservative is a genius when it comes to branding their message way before the elections.
I have noticed that he seems to be toning down a bit.







Post#1245 at 08-29-2010 02:07 PM by jpatrick [at Venice Beach CA joined Dec 2009 #posts 228]
---
08-29-2010, 02:07 PM #1245
Join Date
Dec 2009
Location
Venice Beach CA
Posts
228

Quote Originally Posted by BookishXer View Post

“Restoring America to what it once was.” “Bring honor back to America.” These kinds of statements mean very different things to different people. Spoken with fervor at a rally, they can take on an unintended (or intended) life of their own. My first question is, “to which former state do we want to restore America?” My next question is “How has America lost its honor and what is the definition of honor we’re seeking to achieve?

I think many people call “fascist” when they see events like this because of the ambiguous but passionate calls for patriotism, for drawing a line in the sand that says participants are on the right side and those on the other side are wrong…but neither side is defined. There is a common but vague vernacular: “Restore America.” “Honor.” “Advance or perish.” The nationally-recognized speakers at this event, Palin, Beck, aren’t known for their inclusiveness and empathy but for their propensity to divide.

I don’t want to put words in anyone else’s mouth, but I believe it’s these kinds of qualities that make many people bristle at such events because, erroneously or not, they are reminiscent of early fascist rallies post WWI: There is something wrong with our nation, we have lost our honor, we will restore it, and we will show you who is to blame.
I come up with the same questions. I start deconstructing the little statements and get lost in the maze of possible meanings. Eliciting an emotional response would seem to be the point of these speeches.

Overall this rally doesn't seem Fascist at all. Glenn Beck's ego certainly seems to be getting enormous though.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...990835474.html

Thanks for those links Justin. Semper Fi, ooh ra







Post#1246 at 08-29-2010 02:28 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
---
08-29-2010, 02:28 PM #1246
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
Meh.
Posts
12,182

Quote Originally Posted by jpatrick View Post
Eliciting an emotional response would seem to be the point of these speeches.
And HOPE!! CHANGE!!!11!!1! wasn't exactly the same?

All political speech is demagoguery. It goes back to at least the advent of broadcast-speechifying (Roosevelt? Hoover?), though it probably goes back much further than that.
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc ętre dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant ŕ moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce ętre dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#1247 at 08-29-2010 04:02 PM by Tone70 [at Omaha joined Apr 2010 #posts 1,473]
---
08-29-2010, 04:02 PM #1247
Join Date
Apr 2010
Location
Omaha
Posts
1,473

Quote Originally Posted by BookishXer View Post
I watched the video linked above and read the WSJ article also linked.

Though I am always moved by King's 'free at last' statements, this video didn’t especially resonate with me only because it felt manipulative, what with the split screen and juxtaposition of statements.

I am not a fan of Beck. I’ve never watched nor listened to him, nor do I especially want to.

I do agree with James50 that I wouldn’t immediately define this rally as fascist. However, because of some of the very vague language used to promote both the rally and the message of the rally, I understand why many feel uncomfortable with it. I feel uncomfortable.

“Restoring America to what it once was.” “Bring honor back to America.” These kinds of statements mean very different things to different people. Spoken with fervor at a rally, they can take on an unintended (or intended) life of their own. My first question is, “to which former state do we want to restore America?” My next question is “How has America lost its honor and what is the definition of honor we’re seeking to achieve?”

I think many people call “fascist” when they see events like this because of the ambiguous but passionate calls for patriotism, for drawing a line in the sand that says participants are on the right side and those on the other side are wrong…but neither side is defined. There is a common but vague vernacular: “Restore America.” “Honor.” “Advance or perish.” The nationally-recognized speakers at this event, Palin, Beck, aren’t known for their inclusiveness and empathy but for their propensity to divide.

I don’t want to put words in anyone else’s mouth, but I believe it’s these kinds of qualities that make many people bristle at such events because, erroneously or not, they are reminiscent of early fascist rallies post WWI: There is something wrong with our nation, we have lost our honor, we will restore it, and we will show you who is to blame.
Cogent analysis. I agree and have had the same questions. Who's rights are we going to remove to get back to this better age?
"Freedom is not something that the rulers "give" the population...people have immense power potential. It is ultimately their attitudes, behavior, cooperation, and obedience that supply the power to all rulers and hierarchical systems..." - Gene Sharp

"The Occupy protesters are acting like citizens, believing they have the power to change things...that humble people can acquire power when they convince themselves they can." - William Greider







Post#1248 at 08-29-2010 04:07 PM by Tone70 [at Omaha joined Apr 2010 #posts 1,473]
---
08-29-2010, 04:07 PM #1248
Join Date
Apr 2010
Location
Omaha
Posts
1,473

Quote Originally Posted by Rose1992 View Post
My first impression of the rally is that it seems like something an aspiring political candidate would do. Anyone think Mr. Beck is going to run for President?
And take the pay cut? Doubtful. He's been exposed to the S&H and is aiming to be this cycle's Father Coughlin in my opinion. But this time with sponsors!
Last edited by Tone70; 08-29-2010 at 04:12 PM.
"Freedom is not something that the rulers "give" the population...people have immense power potential. It is ultimately their attitudes, behavior, cooperation, and obedience that supply the power to all rulers and hierarchical systems..." - Gene Sharp

"The Occupy protesters are acting like citizens, believing they have the power to change things...that humble people can acquire power when they convince themselves they can." - William Greider







Post#1249 at 08-29-2010 04:11 PM by Tone70 [at Omaha joined Apr 2010 #posts 1,473]
---
08-29-2010, 04:11 PM #1249
Join Date
Apr 2010
Location
Omaha
Posts
1,473

Quote Originally Posted by Justin '77 View Post
When was America ever isolationist? Even Pre-America was violently, aggressively, [genocidally, had the technology been up to the task], non-isolationist.

Since close to right after the Revolution, the United States has invaded these foreign lands:

The Northwest Territory (1785-1795)
St. Domingo (1800)
Independent West Florida (1810-1813)
Canada (1812-1814)
French Polynesia (1813)
Cuba, Puerto Rico (1820-1825)
Indonesia (1832, 1838)
Samoa (1841)
China (1843)
Mexico (1842-1848)
Argentina (1852, 1853)
Nicaragua (1853, 1854)
Japan (1853-1854)
China (1854, 1855, 1856)
Uruguay (1855)
Panama (1856)
Utah Territory (1857-1858)
Nicaragua (1857)
Uruguay (1858)
Fiji Islands (1858)
Mexico (1859)
China (1859)
Angola (1860)
Colombia (1860)
Confederate States of America (1861-1865)
Panama (1865)
Mexico (1866)
China (1866)
Nicaragua (1867)
Japan (1868)
Uruguay (1868)

...

that's just the first hundred years. It doesn't get any better after that...
Justin this is a valuable compilation. You should reproduce it in another thread so that it doesn't get lost in the spiral of violence. I think many people are unaware of the true extent of our intervention. I know I hadn't heard of many of these.
"Freedom is not something that the rulers "give" the population...people have immense power potential. It is ultimately their attitudes, behavior, cooperation, and obedience that supply the power to all rulers and hierarchical systems..." - Gene Sharp

"The Occupy protesters are acting like citizens, believing they have the power to change things...that humble people can acquire power when they convince themselves they can." - William Greider







Post#1250 at 08-29-2010 04:31 PM by Debol1990 [at joined Jul 2010 #posts 734]
---
08-29-2010, 04:31 PM #1250
Join Date
Jul 2010
Posts
734

I think you guys give way to much credit to Beck and Palin.

They are religious people with a conservative platform. They use there fame to spout off as pundits. That's it!

They are not interested in subjugating you in some sort of fascist (which doesn't make sense, totalitarian governments in modern times suppress religion) state where there going to gas the Gay's and Black's.

I have seen his show a couple times, and I think he is legitimately sincere in what he says.
-----------------------------------------