Originally Posted by AnneZob

There's more. She was featured in the book "Faces of Hope: Babies Born on 9/11"

http://www.allvoices.com/contributed...a-gunmans-hand

I think the RW just created a martyr with this little girl. How long before the accounts of miracles start?

Originally Posted by Jordan '88

Millennials seem pretty grounded and community-minded, maybe there's hope yet (trying to be optimistic, as hard as that seems these days).

I agree with those who say this 4T will be about the people vs. the government, it only makes sense considering what I understand to be the major theme of the 2T was distrust in government and authority in general. It's definitely going to get worse from here before it gets better.

"The People" vs the American Government. And what will we have when the American government is destroyed? Oh I forgot. It already has been. Can we all spell Katrina? Iraq? 911? Homeland Security? Global thermo nuclear economic collapse?

"As Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik put it in an extraordinary and melancholic press conference after the shooting, "we have become the Mecca for prejudice and bigotry." He added that he's "not aware of any public officials who are not receiving threats."

Now we can use all those guns the NRA worked so had to give us, to murder each other and all our public officials. And i was worried about the Commies and the Arabs. Silly me.

Confirmed, Loughner is a RWer.

The kid in HS used to pick fights with my brother because my brother is Jewish.

Jared was a Limbaugh listener! Confirmed by my brother.

Jared graduated Marana Mountain View HS in 2007. My brother in 2006.

My brother remembers his anti-Jewish comments and my brother going medi-eval on him.

Originally Posted by Odin

Confirmed, Loughner is a RWer.

So now you're taking one person's anecdotal evidence over another when they both carry equal weight.

This terrorist - and that's exactly what he is - is also an idiot: He "should have" gone after a Democratic member of the Senate in a state with a Republican governor, not a Democratic member of the House, if you really think about it. Three of those, and the Republicans control the Senate.

But then again, these types don't think. They're incapable of it.

The following politico article talks about how the Oklahoma bombings allowed President Clinton to turn the tables on the heated right-wing rhetoric of the time and how it was good for his political standing.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories...294_Page2.html

The references to the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City in 1995 echoed in other ways. That horror, which killed 168 people including many children, helped then-President Bill Clinton stigmatize extreme anti-government rhetoric and re-energize his presidency at a time when Newt Gingrich and conservative Republicans were riding high in Congress.

One veteran Democratic operative, who blames overheated rhetoric for the shooting, said President Barack Obama should carefully but forcefully do what his predecessor did.

“They need to deftly pin this on the tea partiers,” said the Democrat. “Just like the Clinton White House deftly pinned the Oklahoma City bombing on the militia and anti-government people.”

Another Democratic strategist said the similarity is that Tucson and Oklahoma City both “take place in a climate of bitter and virulent rhetoric against the government and Democrats.”

I still expect Patriot Act crackdowns and the post 9/11 public to accept the civil liberty violations. However I think the public reaction to the shooting might be a good test whether the public attitude to the concept of The People versus The Government has changed significantly since the 3T and hence give an indication of how strong this theme will be for this 4T. Will people go "That's horrible, but..." or will they rally decisively behind the Democrats and Obama and turn against the Tea Party? I can't see anyone actually stand behind the shooters at this point but the question is how strong the public reaction against them and the Tea Party will be - will it be firm or will people waver because "It's horrible, but..."? A key indicator might be whether Obama and the Democrat's popularity increases because of the shootings or whether they do not receive any significant boost.

Originally Posted by AnneZob

The following politico article talks about how the Oklahoma bombings allowed President Clinton to turn the tables on the heated right-wing rhetoric of the time and how it was good for his political standing.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories...294_Page2.html




I still expect Patriot Act crackdowns and the post 9/11 public to accept the civil liberty violations. However I think the public reaction to the shooting might be a good test whether the public attitude to the concept of The People versus The Government has changed significantly since the 3T and hence give an indication of how strong this theme will be for this 4T. Will people go "That's horrible, but..." or will they rally decisively behind the Democrats and Obama and turn against the Tea Party? I can't see anyone actually stand behind the shooters at this point but the question is how strong the public reaction against them and the Tea Party will be - will it be firm or will people waver because "It's horrible, but..."? A key indicator might be whether Obama and the Democrat's popularity increases because of the shootings or whether they do not receive any significant boost.

Gutless bastard(s) like the one in Tuscon are the reason every time we sneeze, another right is taken away. No political party should benefit from something like this.

As you all know--I hope--I try to hold myself, and everyone else, to very high standards of evidence.

I am impressed by the evidence that the kid was an anti-semite reported from a schoolmate because Gifford is Jewish. I agree that he sounds like a shizophrenic and that will be two pieces of rather dramatic evidence, to say the least--the other being Mr. Virginia tech--that lunatics can get firearms much too easily in this country. That the kid listens to Limbaugh is also interesting but his online stuff isn't classic rightwing at all. His reading list included Ayn Rand but was very eclectic, essentially standard high school modern classics.

Thus it does not look at all like the kid shot Gifford to protest the onsent of fascist/communist totalitarianism through the health care bill. As for the accomplice, he apparently was seen on the security camera and revised reports say he's 40-45, based on his appearance. I'm surprised they haven't released the pictures yet since it would certainly help locate him--it may be that the evidence is not at all clear that he is involved.

This does not look to me like the beginning of an organized right-wing terrorist campaign. On the other hand, the right has been lowering the bar on what is unacceptable behavior at public political events, by shouting down liberals and occasionally showing up with firearms on their hip. That may have a more general effect.

Of course it's much too easy to buy a gun in this country but we all know nothing will be done about that, except to make it easier. I'm sure the NRA will say that if everyone at the rally had a gun in his/her holster, the kid wouldn't have dared do it.

Here is a site with the photo of the man of interest in yesterday's shooting in Arizona.
http://globalgrind.com/channel/news/...nterest-photo/

On the same site, is also a photo of the innocent precious child who was killed. May we all remember that an innocent death or injury in any country is an injury to us all.

Originally Posted by Odin

A federal judge and a little girl are among those confirmed dead. The congresswoman is in critical condition.

The last time a congressperson was shot wad during the Awakening, Harvey Milk, IIRC.

You do not recall correctly, but that's okay -- you weren't yet born.

Harvey Milk was a member of the San Francisco Board of Supervisors, not a member of Congress.

However, as another poster pointed out, Leo Ryan was shot in 1978.

Originally Posted by The Rani

Wasn't something similar going on with that Washington sniper stuff years ago? An old dude and a young one?

Anyway, a Boomer using a Millie to do his/her dirty work is definitely predicted by the 4T stuff, but holy crap is THIS the war????

Yup. John Allen Muhammad was as much of a cusper as you can get -- born December 31, 1960! Lee Boyd Malvo was born in 1985.

Edited to add: If the alleged accomplist really was involved and is around 50, that would make him a Joneser also.

Originally Posted by The Wonkette

You do not recall correctly, but that's okay -- you weren't yet born.

Harvey Milk was a member of the San Francisco Board of Supervisors, not a member of Congress.

However, as another poster pointed out, Leo Ryan was shot in 1978.

The mayor of San Francisco, George Moscone, was also shot on the same day as Harvey Milk by former supervisor Dan White. In 1954, I believe, Puerto Rican terrorists shot up the House of Representatives. They hit five people, as I recall, but all survived. The same group had killed a policeman and wounded a secret service man trying to kill President Truman a few years earlier. In one of his last acts in office Jimmy Carter let the 1954 terrorists out of jail. I was appalled.

Originally Posted by The Wonkette

Yup. John Allen Muhammad was as much of a cusper as you can get -- born December 31, 1960! Lee Boyd Malvo was born in 1985.

Edited to add: If the alleged accomplist really was involved and is around 50, that would make him a Joneser also.

How about Charlie Manson(1934) and The Manson Family(Early Boomers 1945-).

PoC67

PS: Not cusper-related, but Mentor/Student across Archetypes, older to younger.

Originally Posted by Odin

Confirmed, Loughner is a RWer.

He clearly wasn't other than the fact that he disliked the American government.

It didn't matter who the representative was, he was going to kill his rep. Not because of her views but because of her position. He does not represent any real political movement. He is an anomoly.

Originally Posted by Jordan '88

Millennials seem pretty grounded and community-minded, maybe there's hope yet (trying to be optimistic, as hard as that seems these days).

I agree with those who say this 4T will be about the people vs. the government, it only makes sense considering what I understand to be the major theme of the 2T was distrust in government and authority in general. It's definitely going to get worse from here before it gets better.

I think this as well. But I wouldn't call it too early for the establishment to change that course.

Right now there is a ton of anger circling, and the focus is turnning from outside threats onto the government/business powerhouse at home. But they still have massive influence.

IN the last 10 years the united states has demonstrated that it is a total mess. Incapable of handling a minor military action in the middle east an economy built on debt etc. etc. you know this. So despite our military being huge, other nations like China and Russia have a new sense of power compared to the united states.

So imagine your the president and there is massive anger at home, how do you refocus it in a way that gives you nearly unquestionable power to reform all of the problems within our country and unify us against one common goal? War.

Now, I don't think there is some sort of vast conspiracy pushing us to war. More that the current players and past precedence will just lead to that outcome. So either the next decade will be a tumultuous period of internal conflict, riots, militias, and terror. (it won't be armies like the Civil War). Or in a few years time, when the anger is white hot, some foreign dispute will be embellished to involve us in a major conflict.

Neither will be fun but I don't see any other possibilities.

Originally Posted by AnneZob

I still can't see that happening. I don't know why. It just doesn't seem likely to me.

However what I can see is that the insurgencies might be inspired by the Protestant fundamentalists (particularly if they are mainly right-wing) and after winning the freedom of the American people, squashing Goldman Sachs etc. and becoming national heroes, they then use the anti-terrorism laws to establish a religious theocracy. Hey maybe an extreme environmentalist Protestant religious theocracy to merge the left and right wing.

While I cringe at the phrase "after winning the freedom of the American people", your scenario fits with KaiserD's idea that anti semitism might have been a factor if Gifford is Jewish. Throw in WallStreet and the "Jewish bankers", as well as other "mogrel" threats, as in hispanics, blacks, etc. and the whole thing has a very Deutschland über Alles feel to it.

Who would have thought we'd end up being Nazis. The boomers final kick in the teeth to their GI parents?

You have to love Millennials...

Meet Daniel Hernandez, the intern who likely saved Gabrielle Giffords’ life

Originally Posted by Justin '77

Americans are more inclined to take a swing at someone (anyone... even if they have to invent a 'guilty party') than to simply tuck in and push through a hard time. Our pathologies will make our fall much more traumatic than the Russians' made theirs.

I think you are right.
Perhaps Xers will have to circle the wagons against ... each other???

Originally Posted by KaiserD2

I'm sure the NRA will say that if everyone at the rally had a gun in his/her holster, the kid wouldn't have dared do it.

And they will be right.

Originally Posted by '58 Flat

This terrorist - and that's exactly what he is - is also an idiot: He "should have" gone after a Democratic member of the Senate in a state with a Republican governor, not a Democratic member of the House, if you really think about it. Three of those, and the Republicans control the Senate.

But then again, these types don't think. They're incapable of it.

Yep, had that same thought.
Which proves, to me, that he is indeed an idiot, and not a right-winger.

Originally Posted by The Rani

Yep, had that same thought.
Which proves, to me, that he is indeed an idiot, and not a right-winger.

This sounds more like effects of the unraveling's decay of institutions than a 4T's assassination. He is a nut. There are nuts in any turning. He bought a firearm when he should not have cleared a background check with his mental history though I do not know if he was ever declared insane at any time in a court. Anyway, it does not sound like a 4T problem, just an effect of the 3T.

That sheriff is telling it like it is and the Corporate Media is flailing around trying to protect the RW narrative.

Originally Posted by KaiserD2

Of course it's much too easy to buy a gun in this country but we all know nothing will be done about that, except to make it easier. I'm sure the NRA will say that if everyone at the rally had a gun in his/her holster, the kid wouldn't have dared do it.

Funny you should say that. On TV last night they were interviewing a guy who said he was carrying his gun but was afraid to pull it out for fear people would think he was the shooter.
So much for gun totin' machismo. They are saying a wounded woman pulled his gun clip out of his hand when he was trying to reload. And it was two unarmed bystanders who subdued him.

Originally Posted by jadams

While I cringe at the phrase "after winning the freedom of the American people", your scenario fits with KaiserD's idea that anti semitism might have been a factor if Gifford is Jewish. Throw in WallStreet and the "Jewish bankers", as well as other "mogrel" threats, as in hispanics, blacks, etc. and the whole thing has a very Deutschland über Alles feel to it.

Who would have thought we'd end up being Nazis. The boomers final kick in the teeth to their GI parents?

The retail banking industry has few Jews. Indeed one of the biggest detriments to being a banker is to be Jewish (Shylock?) The Rothschild family never found its way to America.

Investment banking was long a very different critter, but few people have direct contact with investment banking as they do with retail banking (as in applying for a loan or making a transaction at a teller's booth).

Jews seem conspicuously rare in financial frauds. Of course there were Bernie Madoff (a freak), Andrew Fastow at Enron (one of many, mostly non-Jews), and the political shyster Jack Abramoff whose political activities seem as un-Jewish as they could be. But they are so much the exception that one can practically ignores Jews as culprits in the financial meltdown.

...The Tea Party has of course attacked liberals and above all President Obama. It has been careful to avoid expressing antisemitic smears even of liberal Democrats (Feingold, Wyden, Carper, Specter, Levin, Kohl, Schumer, Whitehouse, Franken, et al.) perhaps because such is widely condemned. American fascists and reactionaries don't want any ties to Nazis. But "headless bodies in the desert" somehow became acceptable to them. Incendiary falsehood (like "death panels") is acceptable so long as it isn't sure failure (like "Sieg Heil!" stuff).

Originally Posted by Odin

That sheriff is telling it like it is and the Corporate Media is flailing around trying to protect the RW narrative.

Hurray for the sheriff, who is closer to the horror, and has more political acumen than Governor Brewer and similar hacks!

This horror is now for law enforcement, especially the FBI, to investigate.