Generational Dynamics
Fourth Turning Forum Archive


Popular links:
Generational Dynamics Web Site
Generational Dynamics Forum
Fourth Turning Archive home page
New Fourth Turning Forum

Thread: The Spiral of Violence - Page 61







Post#1501 at 01-09-2011 03:53 PM by jadams [at the tropics joined Feb 2003 #posts 1,097]
---
01-09-2011, 03:53 PM #1501
Join Date
Feb 2003
Location
the tropics
Posts
1,097

Lone nuts

Quote Originally Posted by disgruntledxer View Post
This sounds more like effects of the unraveling's decay of institutions than a 4T's assassination. He is a nut. There are nuts in any turning. He bought a firearm when he should not have cleared a background check with his mental history though I do not know if he was ever declared insane at any time in a court. Anyway, it does not sound like a 4T problem, just an effect of the 3T.
" a·nom·a·ly Noun***/əˈnäməlē/
Synonyms:
noun: abnormality, irregularity, aberration, abnormity
anomalies plural
Something that deviates from what is standard, normal, or expected
- there are a number of anomalies in the present system"

Would that he were just a lone nut. Despite the fact that his deterioration in thought as exhibited in his UTube stuff is very typical of schizophrenia (or he burned out his brain on some very serious drugs), the objects of their paranoia comes from the environment. I've been fed that lone nut line since Lee Harvey Oswald.

But these anomalies keep murdering Democrats. Could it be the non stop right wing hate blabbers on tv and radio trigger paranoid schizophrenics? I was working in a mental health center 20 years ago when one of the clients came in and said he just heard on the radio that Clinton was running drugs for the CIA. I said where'd you hear that and he said Rush Limbaugh.

3T? Yes, I used to think that too. But haven't you heard? This is the tail end of our 4T. It's mopping up operations on the American government. RIP. Long live the King(s)!
jadams

"Can it be believed that the democracy that has overthrown the feudal system and vanquished kings will retreat before tradesmen and capitalists?" Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America







Post#1502 at 01-09-2011 03:53 PM by James50 [at Atlanta, GA US joined Feb 2010 #posts 3,605]
---
01-09-2011, 03:53 PM #1502
Join Date
Feb 2010
Location
Atlanta, GA US
Posts
3,605

Quote Originally Posted by pbrower2a View Post
Hurray for the sheriff, who is closer to the horror, and has more political acumen than Governor Brewer and similar hacks!

This horror is now for law enforcement, especially the FBI, to investigate.
I have looked at the YouTube like Facebook stuff and read descriptions of his behavior on CNN.

Can you tell me the nexus between his behavior and the Tea Party? I just don't see it. Or between him and mainstream conservatism? He is not even in a militia movement based on what has come out, and people from that kind of group would be the ones I would suspect.

Why does the right wing feel defensive? Palin "targeted" some people for electoral defeat? Is that all you got? Obama has used violent metaphors before on more than one occasion. It does not mean you favor violence.

James50
The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. - G.K. Chesterton







Post#1503 at 01-09-2011 04:17 PM by disgruntledxer [at Seattle, WA joined Sep 2010 #posts 674]
---
01-09-2011, 04:17 PM #1503
Join Date
Sep 2010
Location
Seattle, WA
Posts
674

Quote Originally Posted by jadams View Post
" a·nom·a·ly Noun***/əˈnäməlē/
Synonyms:
noun: abnormality, irregularity, aberration, abnormity
anomalies plural
Something that deviates from what is standard, normal, or expected
- there are a number of anomalies in the present system"

Would that he were just a lone nut. Despite the fact that his deterioration in thought as exhibited in his UTube stuff is very typical of schizophrenia (or he burned out his brain on some very serious drugs), the objects of their paranoia comes from the environment. I've been fed that lone nut line since Lee Harvey Oswald.

But these anomalies keep murdering Democrats. Could it be the non stop right wing hate blabbers on tv and radio trigger paranoid schizophrenics? I was working in a mental health center 20 years ago when one of the clients came in and said he just heard on the radio that Clinton was running drugs for the CIA. I said where'd you hear that and he said Rush Limbaugh.

3T? Yes, I used to think that too. But haven't you heard? This is the tail end of our 4T. It's mopping up operations on the American government. RIP. Long live the King(s)!
Not the tail end, but maybe the climax will happen soon as long as it is not an internal fight. I am afraid it is the middle though and hope that it really did not start in 2008, but evidence suggests that 4T started in 2001.

One thing is this: Its not that he is a nut. Its the REACTION to the shooting and the redoric comming from BOTH sides in blaming the other. This is not the tail end yet since one side has not clearly won. First the left leaned toward winning and now the right leans toward winning. But both sides may loose before its over.
Initially, the questions I ask when reviewing any saeculur event: What did the decision makers know about the cyclical time, when did they know it, and how did they act on that knowledge? Then I can ask the question, "what was their purpose?" I take extra special notice when reviewing events before Generations was released by Strauss-Howe.







Post#1504 at 01-09-2011 04:43 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
---
01-09-2011, 04:43 PM #1504
Join Date
Sep 2006
Location
Moorhead, MN, USA
Posts
14,442

Quote Originally Posted by James50 View Post
I have looked at the YouTube like Facebook stuff and read descriptions of his behavior on CNN.

Can you tell me the nexus between his behavior and the Tea Party? I just don't see it. Or between him and mainstream conservatism? He is not even in a militia movement based on what has come out, and people from that kind of group would be the ones I would suspect.

Why does the right wing feel defensive? Palin "targeted" some people for electoral defeat? Is that all you got? Obama has used violent metaphors before on more than one occasion. It does not mean you favor violence.

James50
Busted: Tea Party emails members urging them to describe shooter as "liberal lunatic"

The Right is going all out with propaganda to deny this guy's connection with RW nuts. Reacting with such vehemence is a good signal of guilt.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#1505 at 01-09-2011 04:57 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
---
01-09-2011, 04:57 PM #1505
Join Date
Sep 2006
Location
Moorhead, MN, USA
Posts
14,442

To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#1506 at 01-09-2011 05:47 PM by KaiserD2 [at David Kaiser '47 joined Jul 2001 #posts 5,220]
---
01-09-2011, 05:47 PM #1506
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
David Kaiser '47
Posts
5,220

Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
Busted: Tea Party emails members urging them to describe shooter as "liberal lunatic"

The Right is going all out with propaganda to deny this guy's connection with RW nuts. Reacting with such vehemence is a good signal of guilt.
Jesus H. Christ. It's true, I read the link. It's the Reichstag fire again: that guy was a lone nut, Hitler blamed the Communists and suspended civil liberties. (Not that I expect that to happen.)







Post#1507 at 01-09-2011 05:53 PM by KaiserD2 [at David Kaiser '47 joined Jul 2001 #posts 5,220]
---
01-09-2011, 05:53 PM #1507
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
David Kaiser '47
Posts
5,220

This just in.

TUCSON, AZ (KOLD) - The man sought by the FBI and Pima County Sheriffs deputies as a "person of interest" turned out to be the suspect's cab driver, The Arizona Daily Star is reporting.

The man told detectives he gave Jared Loughner a ride to the shopping center where the shooting took place on Oracle and Ina roads.

The cab driver walked with Loughner into the Safeway store so the suspect could get cash to pay the fare, according to the Arizona Daily Star report.

More from the article:



Records substantiate the driver dropped Loughner off at 9:59 a.m., Kastigar said. Loughner was picked up nearby. The first report of a shooting came in 10:11 a.m. and paramedics were on scene at 10:16 a.m., Kastigar said.

FBI Director Robert Mueller said he expects federal charges to be filed Sunday afternoon against Loughner.

There's a possibility the charges may be related to domestic terrorism, Mueller said.

Stay with KOLD News for further updates.







Post#1508 at 01-09-2011 06:38 PM by Earl and Mooch [at Delaware - we pave paradise and put up parking lots joined Sep 2002 #posts 2,106]
---
01-09-2011, 06:38 PM #1508
Join Date
Sep 2002
Location
Delaware - we pave paradise and put up parking lots
Posts
2,106

Quote Originally Posted by pbrower2a View Post
...The Tea Party has of course attacked liberals and above all President Obama. It has been careful to avoid expressing antisemitic smears even of liberal Democrats (Feingold, Wyden, Carper, Specter, Levin, Kohl, Schumer, Whitehouse, Franken, et al.) perhaps because such is widely condemned.
Never mind any of the others, but Tom Carper is no liberal.
"My generation, we were the generation that was going to change the world: somehow we were going to make it a little less lonely, a little less hungry, a little more just place. But it seems that when that promise slipped through our hands we didn´t replace it with nothing but lost faith."

Bruce Springsteen, 1987
http://brucebase.wikispaces.com/1987...+YORK+CITY,+NY







Post#1509 at 01-09-2011 06:39 PM by wtrg8 [at NoVA joined Dec 2008 #posts 1,262]
---
01-09-2011, 06:39 PM #1509
Join Date
Dec 2008
Location
NoVA
Posts
1,262

Slow down people, Tea party nation is a fringe member and doesn't speak for mainstream Tea Party folks.

http://www.teapartypatriots.org/

Slow down and read both sides, just not your chosen beliefs.







Post#1510 at 01-09-2011 07:11 PM by James50 [at Atlanta, GA US joined Feb 2010 #posts 3,605]
---
01-09-2011, 07:11 PM #1510
Join Date
Feb 2010
Location
Atlanta, GA US
Posts
3,605

Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
Busted: Tea Party emails members urging them to describe shooter as "liberal lunatic"

The Right is going all out with propaganda to deny this guy's connection with RW nuts. Reacting with such vehemence is a good signal of guilt.
The article sounds defensive which is rational after how the RW was attacked after Oklahoma City, but still I ask the question - where is the nexus between Loughner and the Tea Party? I don't see him as a left wing lunatic or a right wing lunatic. He is a lunatic. Why do you think otherwise?

James50

PS: facts would be nice.
Last edited by James50; 01-09-2011 at 07:17 PM.
The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. - G.K. Chesterton







Post#1511 at 01-09-2011 07:21 PM by James50 [at Atlanta, GA US joined Feb 2010 #posts 3,605]
---
01-09-2011, 07:21 PM #1511
Join Date
Feb 2010
Location
Atlanta, GA US
Posts
3,605

Here is an equivalent to the earlier post about the Tea Party Nation saying to call him a "left wing lunatic"
One veteran Democratic operative, who blames overheated rhetoric for the shooting, said President Barack Obama should carefully but forcefully do what his predecessor did. “They need to deftly pin this on the tea partiers,” said the Democrat. “Just like the Clinton White House deftly pinned the Oklahoma City bombing on the militia and anti-government people.”
Don't let yourself be sucked in by these political operatives.

James50
Last edited by James50; 01-09-2011 at 07:23 PM.
The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. - G.K. Chesterton







Post#1512 at 01-09-2011 07:34 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
---
01-09-2011, 07:34 PM #1512
Join Date
Sep 2006
Location
Moorhead, MN, USA
Posts
14,442

Quote Originally Posted by James50 View Post
The article sounds defensive which is rational after how the RW was attacked after Oklahoma City, but still I ask the question - where is the nexus between Loughner and the Tea Party? I don't see him as a left wing lunatic or a right wing lunatic. He is a lunatic. Why do you think otherwise?

James50

PS: facts would be nice.
The TP (the rank and file, not the Libertarian founders and Libertarian intellectual types within it) are the same people that supported the RW millitias of the early 90s.

Please, do not confuse the TPs founding as a very valid and legitimate protest of Libertarians (Kurt's "True Top") against TARP, and it's later evolution into "True Right" astroturf via Koch family money and reactionary demagogues like Sarah Palin and Michelle Bachmann. Bachmann, a Christo-Fascist theocrat, is the leading figure of the TP now.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#1513 at 01-09-2011 07:35 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
---
01-09-2011, 07:35 PM #1513
Join Date
Sep 2006
Location
Moorhead, MN, USA
Posts
14,442

Quote Originally Posted by James50 View Post
Here is an equivalent to the earlier post about the Tea Party Nation saying to call him a "left wing lunatic"
Don't let yourself be sucked in by these political operatives.

James50
LOL, they always blame "Liberal operatives" when they get caught with their pants down.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#1514 at 01-09-2011 08:13 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
---
01-09-2011, 08:13 PM #1514
Join Date
Sep 2006
Location
Moorhead, MN, USA
Posts
14,442

To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#1515 at 01-09-2011 08:42 PM by Brunette Champion [at joined Jul 2010 #posts 5]
---
01-09-2011, 08:42 PM #1515
Join Date
Jul 2010
Posts
5

To me, the political views of Loughner and Giffords don't matter that much, although they're not entirely irrelevant.

What matters is that the American right wing, much more than the left wing, has created an environment in which violence is encouraged and sanctioned. They've turned the culture of the anti-abortion segment of the right wing-- a culture in which shootings of doctors who provide abortion occur fairly often-- into the general political culture.

Every time an abortion doctor is murdered, the anti-choice leadership immediately apologizes and claims that the murderer doesn't represent them.

Can you imagine the discourse right now if the murderer were a schizophrenic illegal immigrant and the Congress member a Republican? How much would we be hearing about how there are always unhinged people who do crazy, violent things, and there's nothing we can do about it?







Post#1516 at 01-09-2011 09:06 PM by James50 [at Atlanta, GA US joined Feb 2010 #posts 3,605]
---
01-09-2011, 09:06 PM #1516
Join Date
Feb 2010
Location
Atlanta, GA US
Posts
3,605

Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
The TP (the rank and file, not the Libertarian founders and Libertarian intellectual types within it) are the same people that supported the RW millitias of the early 90s..
huh? Please give me some facts or I will think you have been propagandized.

What would be helpful in the wake of this tragedy would be a discussion of mental health care in the US. What treatment did this guy get or not get? Was he getting psychiatric care? What were his parents able to do about his obvious illness?

Everything else is political garbage.

James50
The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. - G.K. Chesterton







Post#1517 at 01-09-2011 09:07 PM by James50 [at Atlanta, GA US joined Feb 2010 #posts 3,605]
---
01-09-2011, 09:07 PM #1517
Join Date
Feb 2010
Location
Atlanta, GA US
Posts
3,605

Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
LOL, they always blame "Liberal operatives" when they get caught with their pants down.
huh? You posted something about the Tea Party Nation - whoever that is. I posted something about a democrat party operative. Pants are down all over the place.

James50
The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. - G.K. Chesterton







Post#1518 at 01-09-2011 09:11 PM by James50 [at Atlanta, GA US joined Feb 2010 #posts 3,605]
---
01-09-2011, 09:11 PM #1518
Join Date
Feb 2010
Location
Atlanta, GA US
Posts
3,605

Quote Originally Posted by Brunette Champion View Post
What matters is that the American right wing, much more than the left wing, has created an environment in which violence is encouraged and sanctioned.
No one's hands are clean if you think violent rhetoric is the cause of yesterday's onslaught. That is not what I think.
"I think it's tempting not to negotiate with hostage takers, unless the hostage gets harmed. In this case the hostage is the American people and I was not willing to see them get harmed," Obama on keeping taxes from increasing, December 6, 2010

"A Republican majority in Congress would mean "hand-to-hand combat" on Capitol Hill for the next two years, threatening policies Democrats have enacted to stabilize the economy," Obama, October 6, 2010
“If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun,” Obama in July 2008
"Here's the problem: It's almost like they've got -- they've got a bomb strapped to them and they've got their hand on the trigger. You don't want them to blow up. But you've got to kind of talk them, ease that finger off the trigger." Obama on banks, March 2009
"I want you to argue with them and get in their face!" Barack Obama, September 2008
“We’re gonna punish our enemies and we’re gonna reward our friends who stand with us on issues that are important to us.” Obama to Latinos, October 2010
“I don’t want to quell anger. I think people are right to be angry! I’m angry!” Obama on ACORN Mobs, March 2010
“We talk to these folks… so I know whose ass to kick.“ Obama on the private sector, June 2010

James50
Last edited by James50; 01-09-2011 at 09:14 PM.
The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. - G.K. Chesterton







Post#1519 at 01-09-2011 09:24 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
---
01-09-2011, 09:24 PM #1519
Join Date
Sep 2006
Location
Moorhead, MN, USA
Posts
14,442

Quote Originally Posted by James50 View Post
huh? Please give me some facts or I will think you have been propagandized.
James50
The rhetoric is pretty much identical, they want to "take back their country" from the "evil liberals" using "Second Amendment Solutions".
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#1520 at 01-09-2011 09:26 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
---
01-09-2011, 09:26 PM #1520
Join Date
Sep 2006
Location
Moorhead, MN, USA
Posts
14,442

Quote Originally Posted by James50 View Post
No one's hands are clean if you think violent rhetoric is the cause of yesterday's onslaught. That is not what I think.
"I think it's tempting not to negotiate with hostage takers, unless the hostage gets harmed. In this case the hostage is the American people and I was not willing to see them get harmed," Obama on keeping taxes from increasing, December 6, 2010

"A Republican majority in Congress would mean "hand-to-hand combat" on Capitol Hill for the next two years, threatening policies Democrats have enacted to stabilize the economy," Obama, October 6, 2010
“If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun,” Obama in July 2008
"Here's the problem: It's almost like they've got -- they've got a bomb strapped to them and they've got their hand on the trigger. You don't want them to blow up. But you've got to kind of talk them, ease that finger off the trigger." Obama on banks, March 2009
"I want you to argue with them and get in their face!" Barack Obama, September 2008
“We’re gonna punish our enemies and we’re gonna reward our friends who stand with us on issues that are important to us.” Obama to Latinos, October 2010
“I don’t want to quell anger. I think people are right to be angry! I’m angry!” Obama on ACORN Mobs, March 2010
“We talk to these folks… so I know whose ass to kick.“ Obama on the private sector, June 2010

James50
Nobody on our side is calling for "Second Amendment Solutions". Or literally calling out for killing conservatives.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#1521 at 01-09-2011 09:28 PM by Bob Butler 54 [at Cove Hold, Carver, MA joined Jul 2001 #posts 6,431]
---
01-09-2011, 09:28 PM #1521
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
Cove Hold, Carver, MA
Posts
6,431

Left Arrow Spirals of Violence

Quote Originally Posted by KaiserD2 View Post
Jesus H. Christ. It's true, I read the link. It's the Reichstag fire again: that guy was a lone nut, Hitler blamed the Communists and suspended civil liberties. (Not that I expect that to happen.)
Sounds like a lone nut to me. It's not an organized group like the SDS, KKK, Al Qaida or Hitler's Nazi Party. Any sort of organized group with a planed program of violence would be a significant escalation. I know the right wing militias still exist, but thus far they are training and talking rather than acting.

I personally don't consider the Tea Party to be a single unified force. You can go anywhere from Republican Washington insiders to rural religious folk who hate Washington and everything it represents, and both extremes along with anything in between might sincerely use the Tea Party label. Some of these people might either explicitly or indirectly invoke or promote violence, but I wouldn't say the majority of those who use the Tea Party label want to go violent. No where close.

I don't anticipate a spiral of violence getting out of control until there are two opposing organized factions each thinking that any violent action by one side needs a response from the other side with interest and escalation. At this point we have a few mostly right wing people playing with dangerous rhetoric and denying responsibility when the lone nuts mistake said rhetoric for public support, or when the rhetoric inflames latent tendencies towards violence.

After the OKC bombing and September 11th, both major parties got together and soundly renounced terrorist tactics as a tool for domestic policy change. No, domestic terrorism isn't as firm a values statement as no nukes, but not too many years ago it was relatively solid. It's less solid now.

We are no where close to a Reichstag Fire like authoritarian takeover. More likely, the right to privacy will be eroded a bit further. Various software companies will program Big Brother to examine every Facebook and other social media pages looking for hints of lone nut syndrome. Anyone identified by the software will be visited by an FBI agent offering to sell him a dummy bomb. We are drifting in the direction of snoop and sting. So long as only true nuts are getting stung, this might well be considered acceptable. I'm not sure snoop and sting should become a habit, though, a doctrine. I would expect political abuse to result, and whatever administration is in power might use the snoop and sting method for political purposes.







Post#1522 at 01-09-2011 09:34 PM by James50 [at Atlanta, GA US joined Feb 2010 #posts 3,605]
---
01-09-2011, 09:34 PM #1522
Join Date
Feb 2010
Location
Atlanta, GA US
Posts
3,605

Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
Nobody on our side is calling for "Second Amendment Solutions". Or literally calling out for killing conservatives.
And what is "if they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun"?

This is an absurd thread. We are not on the cusp of even random political violence. We have gone about as far as the American people and our Constitution will allow as far as gun control. Better mental health care is the best answer to this situation from what we have heard so far.

James50
The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. - G.K. Chesterton







Post#1523 at 01-09-2011 09:47 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
---
01-09-2011, 09:47 PM #1523
Join Date
Sep 2006
Location
Moorhead, MN, USA
Posts
14,442

http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2011/0...-lee-loughner/

Is Jared Lee Loughner, the alleged mass murderer who shot U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords of Arizona, a right-wing extremist?

It’s hard to say. When you look at the Internet material he purportedly produced, the first impression you get is that the 22-year-old now in custody for the shooting of 19 people in Tucson was completely out of his mind, or at least mildly deranged. His writings will be virtually impossible for most people to understand, what with his references to unexplained numbers, his fondness for weird syllogisms, his unexplained references and his apparent semi-literacy.

That said, there are some clues.

At one point, Loughner refers disparagingly to “currency that’s not backed by gold or silver.” The idea that silver and gold are the only “constitutional” money is widespread in the antigovernment “Patriot” movement that produced so much violence in the 1990s. It’s linked to the core Patriot theory that the Federal Reserve is actually a private corporation run for the benefit of unnamed international bankers. So-called Patriots say paper money — what they refer to with a sneer as “Federal Reserve notes” — is not lawful.

At another, Loughner makes extraordinarily obscure comments about language and grammar, suggesting that the government engages in “mind control on the people by controlling grammar.” That’s not the kind of idea that’s very common out there, even on the Internet. In fact, I think it’s pretty clear that Loughner is taking ideas from Patriot conspiracy theorist David Wynn Miller of Milwaukee. Miller claims that the government uses grammar to “enslave” Americans and offers up his truly weird “Truth-language” as an antidote. For example, he says that if you add colons and hyphens to your name in a certain way, you are no longer taxable. Miller may be mad as a hatter, but he has a real following on the right.

Loughner talks about how you “can’t trust the government” and someone burns a U.S. flag in one of his videos. Although certain right-wing websites are already using that (and his listing of The Communist Manifesto as one of his favorite books) to claim that Loughner was a “left-winger,” that does not strike me as true. The main enemy of the Patriot movement is certainly the federal government. And so-called Patriots have certainly engaged in acts like burning the flag.

Finally, I think Loughner’s reading list, although it included children’s books and a few classics, had an underlying theme — the individual versus the totalitarian state. Certainly, that’s the explicit central theme of Ayn Rand’s We the Living and Orwell’s 1984 and Animal Farm, among others. I would argue that that’s the way Loughlin seems to be reading The Communist Manifesto and Hitler’s Mein Kampf — as variants of a kind of generalized “smash the state” attitude.

Chip Berlet of Political Research Associates, which does similar work to that of Hatewatch, points out in a post earlier today that Loughner also makes a reference to a “second American constitution.” As Chip notes, that is commonly understood to refer to the Reconstruction amendments that freed the slaves and gave them citizenship, among other things. Chip says that “raises the question of a possible racist and anti-immigrant tie” in the Arizona shooting.

On top of that, Fox News is reporting on an internal Department of Homeland Security message suggesting some tie between Loughner and American Renaissance, a kind of white-collar racist group.

I can’t speak to those allegations. Outside of what Chip pointed out, I didn’t see anything that suggested racial, anti-Semitic or anti-immigrant animus in Loughner’s writings. Certainly, there’s nothing I saw at all reminiscent of American Renaissance, which focuses heavily on the alleged intellectual and psychological inferiority of black people.

At this early stage, I think Loughner is probably best described as a mentally ill or unstable person who was influenced by the rhetoric and demonizing propaganda around him. Ideology may not explain why he allegedly killed, but it could help explain how he selected his target.

One thing that seems clear is that Giffords, who was terribly wounded but survived, was the nearest and most obvious representative of “the government” that Loughner could find. Another is that he likely absorbed some of his anger from the vitriolic political atmosphere in the United States in general and Arizona in particular. Perhaps no one made that point better than Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik, speaking to a press conference yesterday. “When you look at unbalanced people, how they respond to the vitriol that comes out of certain mouths about tearing down the government… The anger, the hatred, the bigotry that goes on in this country is getting to be outrageous and unfortunately Arizona has become sort of the capital. We have become the mecca for prejudice and bigotry.”
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#1524 at 01-09-2011 09:58 PM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
---
01-09-2011, 09:58 PM #1524
Join Date
Aug 2004
Posts
6,099

Michael Moore, earlier today on twitter: "If a Detroit Muslim put a map on the web w/crosshairs on 20 [politicians], then 1 of them got shot, where would he be sitting right now? Just asking."
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#1525 at 01-09-2011 10:05 PM by ASB65 [at Texas joined Mar 2010 #posts 5,892]
---
01-09-2011, 10:05 PM #1525
Join Date
Mar 2010
Location
Texas
Posts
5,892

Quote Originally Posted by Deb C View Post
Michael Moore, earlier today on twitter: "If a Detroit Muslim put a map on the web w/crosshairs on 20 [politicians], then 1 of them got shot, where would he be sitting right now? Just asking."
No kidding. I love Michael Moore. I realize on occasion he goes a bit overboard, but you have to admit that most of his observations are pretty much on spot.
-----------------------------------------